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GSC OU (OverUsed) Charizard Analysis

Discussion in 'Individual Analyses' started by Roostur, Feb 17, 2017.

  1. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Charizard [​IMG]
    Type: Fire / Flying
    Stats: 78 | 84 | 78 | 109 | 85 | 100


    Introduction

    Charizard's main goal is to blow a hole into the enemy team. His role is similar to an exploding pokemon in that way. The plan is to switch Charizard into a poke that doesn't want to take fire blast and belly drum as they switch out to set yourself up for a kill that will make your opponent's team synergy crumble. It is a simple plan and one you don't want to be on the receiving end of.

    Sets

    Battering Ram

    Charizard @ Pink Bow / Leftovers
    - Belly Drum
    - Sunny Day
    - Fire Blast
    - Hyper Beam

    Set details

    Unlike the old Rockslide/Earthquake/Fire blast/Belly drum Charizard set, this one doesn't take as much support and will kill things with Hyper Beam that it couldn't kill before. This means he gets to belly drum a lot sooner and gives you a better chance at winning. Sunny Day + Fire Blast lets Charizard contribute to the team without sacrificing half of his health to do so. Sunny Day + Fire Blast does big damage to many pokes, including 3hkoing lax, and lets Charizard go toe to toe with with a Thunder Zapdos or Thunder Raikou by cutting down their accuracy.

    You want to have some pokemon that can paralyze fast pokemon like Raikou and Starmie. You want to take these pokemon out of commission or else Charizard can't Bellydrum. Paralyzing Raikou isn't terribly hard seeing as he is a special wall that likes coming in on moves like Thunder. Umbreon can be used to take out Starmie, or if you don't care about having spikes down, Cloyster exploding on Starmie is almost a 100% guaranteed kill after laying down spikes. Heracross is a big friend to Charizard because he will lure in pokes like Skarmory that Charizard can switch into and belly drum on. Light Screen and Reflect are also support moves to consider that can help Charizard out. .



    Other options

    Putting Earthquake over Sunny Day is probably the number one change people think about when looking at this move set. Earthquake will let you hit ground types that you can't hit very hard with the Sunny Day + Fire Blast set, but Charizard isn't killing anything with Earthquake without Belly Drumming first. This means that you will be forced to use Belly Drum to be effective at all which can be very easily exploited.

    Checks and Counters

    Any electric type or water type that is faster than Charizard can stop his evil plan. Ground types, such as Rhydon and Golem, are slower than Charizard but unless they are significantly weakened they will stop Charizard dead in his tracks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2017
  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I made some aesthetic edits (removed random added lines, sized etc.)

    Haven't read it yet but that introduction looks suuuuuper brief.
     
  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Is that really the standard set? My good friend + also to my knowledge a good GSC player Beds wrote this zard analysis a year ago on Smogon which I just remembered and the standard set for BellyZard there isn't what you have.

    Gen 2 - Charizard (OU Revamp) | Smogon Forums

    Anyway gonna tag a bunch of GSC players because I'd appreciate their thoughts on the analysis

    Conflict Texas Cloverleaf Bedschibaer Bomber

    Basically that set looks odd (but I don't know GSC really personally) and I'm not convinced you know what you're talking about just based on that so I want extra opinions.
     
  4. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Oh. okay. I didn't know they had revamped it. I've been banned from smogon for like a year or more.
     
  5. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    And what's funny is that I was banned specifically because I was telling them how good Charizard was lol.
     
  6. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    The on-site analysis for Charizard on Smogon isn't updated cos they aren't on top of that stuff for whatever reason, but that analysis in their section is good quality. But yea it's not surprising if you wouldn't have seen it
     
  7. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    I just looked at it. No, I completely disagree with that move set he posts. The move set I posted is one I saw borat post a a long while back, which I don't think he ever got to make it work. I remember him mentioning some calc like "pinkbow charizard ohkos snorlax with hyper beam" and i remember thinking... why the hell does no one use that? So I started using it, and eventually started beating people with it, and it is FAAAR better than the "standard" Charizard set.
     
  8. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    [Gen 2] OU replay: Peasounay vs. Roostur 2 - Pokémon Showdown

    I think this is a good game of Charizard working like he is suppose to. Peasounay is a far better gen 1 player than gen 2 player but this is a pretty good demonstration of Charizard getting in and doing it's job. The set posted by beds just doesn't work well in an actual match.
     
  9. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Well. I don't know much about GSC so I'll leave it up to the GSC playerbase to correct you as they see fit.
     
  10. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Even setting aside the controversial set choice, this just isn't a good analysis. If you want to go on a tirade about how ppl are using Zard wrong and this set is better, that's totally fine, but an analysis is not the way to go about it. The purpose is to educate people about what this pokemon does, how to use it and how to beat it. This analysis does a really poor job of that- brevity is key, you'll notice other analyses keep each section to around one or two paragraphs. Although analysis threads can serve as starting points for more experienced players to discuss what works and what doesn't, this post skips right past that starting point and jumps right into the discussion.

    I really think this is better off as a discussion thread in the analysis and research subforum.

    Come to think of it, maybe some pokemon would benefit from a "deep dive" style of analysis. Either way, I'd still put it in the A&R subforum, as it'd be far from standard and also not authoritative, as an in-depth analysis is far less likely to reach any sort of consensus
     
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  11. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Sure. Yeah. Could be much shorter. There should be a tldr version. But the great thing about my analysis is that it is all from experience unlike the only other one that exists, the one that Beds wrote. No offense to him but he obviously doesn't take Charizard seriously and it shows. He doesn't even mention the Heracross combo, and no one else seemed to mention it either, which shows just how under developed everyone else's Charizard game is to mine. Some people might not like my analysis but it is without a doubt the best one ever written to date.

    And I'm 200% certain that the set I posted is better than the bd/eq/rs/fb set. It's only a matter of getting people to realize it. The latter set is not that good. And saying that set isn't good/viable isn't even a controversial statement to make. No one believes it is that great. What Charizard player do you know putting in mad work with that set winning games? No one is the answer to that question. And "The purpose is to educate people about what this pokemon does, how to use it and how to beat it." I did that. It is long and could be shorter but the analysis meets those requirements. You will not find a better educational analysis on Charizard anywhere else.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  12. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    There's more to it than length though.

    You basically ignore the standards for analyses with your super brief introduction, you spend a full paragraph outlining why smogon's set is bad which is both unnecessary and not all that appropriate, the overall tone of your writing is very informal and I feel not all that appropriate for an analysis. And I mean it's not just that you wrote a lot, it's that you did so while saying relatively little- you spend a whole paragraph on potential teammates, but two thirds of it is devoted to Heracross for instance

    Like I said, I'm fine with having this as a discussion, but this is not adequate as an analysis
     
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  13. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Siiiiiggghhhh. Well the smogon set doesn't work as I said in the analysis and it is important for people to know that. I've tried to make that set work ever since I started playing the game. It just doesn't. Like I said, this is what happens (im not theorymoning btw, this is from countless games) you have to avoid statuses all game with Charizard and all attacks until you have eliminated his counters. This takes a while. Which means you are playing a 5 vs 6 handicap. That handicap might not be a big deal when fighting above average players but at the highest level that handicap gets you killed. Charizard simply does not work as a late game sweeper. That should not be his role. Ever wonder why you don't see him? Because that set sucks and everyone knows it.

    and That's because I almost believe Heracross is an essential team mate. I would never say he is because that would discourage creativity but they work so good together. I would never use Charizard without him myself. It is that good. If I were to edit the analysis to a shorter version I would say "You want to get Charizard in on something that it will ohko with fire blast and belly drum on the predicted switch. Then Hyper Beam to take out the pokemon they switched in. If you die afterward that is fine. The pokemon you just took out will usually give you a big enough advantage to control the tempo of the game until you win. But if they can't kill you during the recharge then even better. Now you get to rinse and repeat." I would also keep the parts about heracross and the counters. Would that be better and acceptable for you?

    I can make whatever edits you want. If you're disputing the information then I'll just have to argue with you on that. The info presented is sound. If it is just my writing you are criticizing then I totally agree with you that I would not make it in life as a writer. Hell if you or someone else wants to edit this for me and make it shorter and word it how you want you are perfectly welcome to.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  14. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    I've avoided criticising the set because I'm not inclined to get into a massive debate on it, especially since I'm not super familiar with Zard. So I'm not going to discuss the merits of standard vs your set, although I think the standard should at least get a mention in OO, rather than spending a paragraph trashing it. An OO mention allows you to note that it is viable (which it is) while also pointing out that it's shit. I'd also like for some other players to comment on what they think of your set in relation to the standard.

    Actually just as a general point, what does this set accomplish beside a (probable) suicide KO? You've done a good job arguing why it's good at that role, but dedicating a teamslot to something that only gets a suicide KO I don't think is a good idea- if you look at all the top pokemon that are used as exploders, they all bring something to the table besides a suicide KO. So what else does Zard do? I mean roasting steels is nice, but they're not that threatening and are easily threatened by other things (Electrics if not Lix, waters for Lix, also anything with Fire Blast). On a related note, I'm not a big fan of Muk =p

    Ignoring the standard altogether, I find Sunny Day to be a really strange choice on the set, as opposed to EQ. EQ gives you coverage vs Rock types (TTar definitely should not be swept under the carpet!), and dropping it makes the set even more gimmicky as it now hinges on the assumption that the opponent does not realise you lack Earthquake. For any set that is purported to be the standard (which you're claiming it should be), relying on the popularity of other sets like this is not a good option. Furthermore, I find the merits of boosting Fire Blast rather weak, as most of the stuff that is weak to it get roasted regardless. The KOs you list as points in favour of Sunny Day are fairly weak imo, as 3HKO on Lax is mostly redundant when you probably want to be nailing it with your Drum HB, while EQ DrumZard OHKOs Missy rather than the 2HKO SunnyBlast achieves. That leaves Cloy as the only listed KO that's missed out on, but I honestly don't see that as being a big deal, as it's not hard to weaken it to a KO point through the Spikes game anyway
     
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  15. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Sunny Day also has a serious issue in that you're also running Belly Drum. I found it extremely unlikely that Charizard would find the opportunity to set up both, especially without Leftovers.

    Hyper Beam does look interesting, but as an Other Option lure set as opposed to its primary set. The set you've listed only works if it isn't the main set it uses. Worse than that, the set you posted leaves Charizard completely at the mercy of any Rock-type Pokemon.

    I'd suggest dropping Sunny Day for Earthquake as suggested, or alternatively Hidden Power Fighting which at +6 OHKOs Tyranitar and Blissey, gives you favorable odds of OHKOing Snorlax, Miltank and Umbreon after Spikes damage without needing a recharge turn, and heavy damage on less used Rock-types (Rhydon, Golem, Aerodactyl) at the cost of failing to OHKO Nidoking or paralyzed Raikou/Jolteon without using Hyper Beam.
     
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  16. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Okay. Cool. We're getting somewhere. We have a very different definition of the word viable it seems. When I say viable I don't just mean that it CAN work. I mean that you can take this set to tournament and feel confident that it can win you the game or the whole tournament. My charizard set is tournament ready. The smogon standard charizard set is not tournament ready, neither is other standard sets like the smogon tauros sleep talk set for example. That would be another example of a set you didn't want to bring to tournament unless your plan was to lose.

    The difference between Charizard and other exploders is that when he goes for the kill it isn't a 50/50. The chances of you actually killing something are in your favor. The things that usually switch into things that are about to explode, like skarmory and steelix, really don't want to be switching in on charizard. And also he is an exploder that doesn't always suicide. A lot of the times all they can do is phaze you out. Or let's say you belly drummed on skarmory because you knew your opponent's raikou was paralyzed, well let's say they switch in vap or lax, you kill that poke, they switch in raikou to kill you on the recharge turn but full para kicks in or their thunder misses, now you get to possibly take another mon. Or better yet maybe raikou is dead or asleep. Now you only get phazed out. Other exploders don't ever get the chance to explode twice but charizard does some times. And I almost always take out something that really matters to my opponent.

    Oh and that team I'm using in the replay I wouldn't recommend lol. You have to sort of be balls deep in gen 2 and have really good gen 2 intuition to make it work. It doesn't have a spiker or a spinner and most people aren't use to playing teams like that. Though I might recommend ampharos because it can be good at paralyzing other electrics.

    As I said in the other options section, if you are going to replace anything it should be sunny day with earthquake. Earthquake IS a good option. The thing is that charizard now has to belly drum to be effective. Always having to belly drum to do big damage can get you into trouble. Charizard with sunny day up is not a joke. 3hkoing Snorlax without having to sacrifice half of your health is not something to be underestimated. It is really good. But by all means try out both options. It can be team dependent. You might like earthquake better. But I'd use both before making any judgement. I have found sunny day to work best personally. I don't mind playing around the ground weakness. Especially because you don't always see tyranitar, who gets murdered by heracross, and you almost never see rhydon or golem outside of Jame G. But Hyper beam is what makes this set. You need to be able to kill the main things that switch into you so you really need Hyper beam. That's the main thing with this set.
     
  17. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    The issue with Sunny Day is the set is trying to half-ass two things at once, rather than whole-assing one thing (I think I remember where that reference is from?). More to the point, you haven't demonstrated what your Zard set offers outside the probable suicide KO, and if that's the only reason I'm using it, I'm gonna want to do it properly.

    The thing with the suicide KO as the only role, is that even a guaranteed KO isn't unique, as a few other exploders manage it. Lax can't be walled, the only things switching into Lix that take Explosion do nothing to it, allowing it more opportunities to boost, potentially reaching a point where its boom simply overpowers even normal resists, while Golem can run coverage that means its explosion is practically unblockable. Heck, if you want to run a weird Egg set you can run 3 attacks + boom which threatens all of its switch-ins, but then it's not that useful otherwise. Having a chance of it not being a suicide is unique, and I'm honestly uncertain of how much weight this carries, since I'm not familiar with the set
     
  18. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    I have swept teams in the late game just using fire blast and sunny day. It is very powerful. Some games I never even use belly drum. It's not really half ass. I think people are really underestimating sunny day + fire blast on zard and overestimating earthquake in place of sunny day. I guarantee you that if I started using earth quake over sunny day that the people who play me pretty regularly would jump for joy. Because they would then know that if I wanted to do any damage at all that I would have to belly drum from now on. Not only do you now have to sacrifice half of your health to do anything, but you are now also forced to be super predictable with belly drum. You pretty much always have to use it now whenever you get the chance. Which makes Charizard much worse. Especially against miltank and lax. Pokemon can become messy. Anything can happen. Things don't go perfect. And in all that chaos known as pokemon you don't want to always be in a position where you always have to sacrifice half of your life to do anything. Egg isn't as good at exploding than charizrd. Isn't fast. Is countered more easily. Golem is good. But still maybe harder to use. I'm actually not as familiar with golem. I never really play with him. Lax is a great exploder but him and Charizard aren't competing for slots.

    Listen Charizard is a fast fire type who hits really hard on the special side and even harder on the physical side once he belly drums. He is going to get the chance to do explosion-like damage, and unlike the other explosion pokes he might be able to do it again if you put his counters out of commission, That is what Charizard is really. Nothing more, nothing less. This is what he does and it is pretty unique.
     
  19. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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  20. Ariel Rebel

    Ariel Rebel #1 rsutton23 Fan Member

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    It's fair to say that most players will choose Thunder over Thunderbolt in GSC OU. Sunny Day drops the accuracy by 20% and in that specific game, Cloyster and Cune are softened by it. You played it as a good late game sweeper here. No drum and you still made it work.

    My concern is that once people pick up on this, and you acknowledge it, you'll be flipping between your set and the smogon set to create a fun prediction game for your opponent.
     

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