ADV -CALLOUS- Destroys His Credibility With One Thread...

[CALLOUS]

Okay, so, let me just say from the start that this is a very outlandish idea, even by the standards of a man who advocates Cacturne as a completely viable if not very good ADV OU Pokemon, and many of you will laugh at me and think I'm a noobcakes. I'm prepared to face the ridicule like a man!

So I've been testing a particular Pokemon lately- a Pokemon no one uses in ADV OU, ever- and honestly truly- not lying, trolling or fishing for a reaction- I think it's actually pretty good and it has a place in the metagame. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the end of my credibility- the almighty GLALIE!

Yes, Glalie. No, not kidding.

HEAR ME OUT!

-Glalie has both the highest base HP and the highest base Special Defense among all Spikes users. It's bulkier than you think.

-Glalie has an excellent offensive movepool- STAB Ice Beam, Crunch, Earthquake, Shadow Ball, Toxic, Taunt, Explosion and of course Spikes. These are among the very best moves in the game.

-Going a little further with the movepool, consider specific examples, such as common Rapid Spinners. Crunch really hurts Starmie and Claydol, Ice Beam gets Claydol and Donphan, Toxic gets Claydol, Cloyster and Donphan and only Donphan can do anything of note back to Glalie. You can build for Special Defense and make it take hits from bulky Starmie (and almost all Rapid Spin variants of Starmie are bulky) really well. The only Rapid Spin user it does not do so well against is Forretress to which I'd say simply pair it with Gengar. HP Fire is also possible but I'm not a fan.

-Taunt is also a worthwhile consideration, as Glalie is faster than several important Pokemon in the metagame, with noteworthy examples being Skarmory and Blissey. Taunting Skarmory with another Spikes user is really good.

-Glalie cannot be trapped by Magneton. Likewise, Glalie at full health will live (if you EV it to do so) anything Dugtrio throws at it and Glalie will 1HKO it back.

-Glalie cannot flinch (Inner Focus) and as such it lives Aerodactyl (or Salamence) Rock Slide and 1HKOs with STAB Ice Beam.

-Glalie is arguably the only Spikes user that Gengar doesn't switch into extremely safely. Gar switches in on Forre and Cloyster for free and easily respectively, whereas Gengar does not take Glalie STAB Ice Beams lightly and cannot do much back to Glalie of note, with Fire Punch and Hypnosis being the only real threats.

Assuming it doesn't have either of those moves, let's do the calc of Gengar vs Glalie assuming the best thing Gengar can do to it is Thunderbolt.

Gengar @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 20 SAtk / 188 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)

Glalie @ Leftovers
Trait: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)

Gengar Thunderbolt does 69-82 damage. Yes, really. MAX roll is 82 damage...

Glalie Ice Beam does 103-123.

Glalie wins this fight 1v1, especially if Gengar switches into Ice Beam initially.

Now, granted, those Glalie EVs are what they are to make a point and not necessarily optimal. You can EV Glalie a ton of ways to always live +1 Rock Slide as mentioned earlier, to always 2HKO specific things with STAB Ice Beam, etc. but the point stands that Glalie CAN be bulky and can be an issue for Gengar. You could also EV it to always 2HKO Gengar with Ice Beam in sand, meaning Gengar would have to be extremely cautious coming into it as it would eat Ice Beam, fail to 1HKO Glalie on its turn (even with Fire Punch) and then die to the subsequent second Ice Beam.

Not that is has much competition (Forretress, Skarmory, Cloyster) but Glalie is likely the best offensive option among Spikers. It can have, again depending on moveset and EVs, a legitimate offensive presence late in the game that can be tough to switch into. How many Pokemon safely switch into a Pokemon with both EQ and STAB Ice Beam? What if it also has Toxic or Crunch? With Spikes already down and stuff at less than full health in a late game situation, it may be tough to safely switch in. Forre or Skarmory, for example, cannot say the same.

Look... I'm not saying Glalie is a better Pokemon than Skarmory or anything like that, nor am I saying Glalie should replace your current Spiker on most of your ADV teams. Admittedly, it's niche and does not belong on every team. That said, I think when utilized to its full potential it's actually quite powerful and it definitely has a non-gimmicky legitimate place on offensive teams in ADV OU. I encourage others to ACTUALLY TRY IT before passing judgment. I was very skeptical when I first tried it too and thought I was just screwing around but to my great surprise it turned out to be really good. It's legit.

Let the hate begin!

 

[ThrashNinjax]

Okay, so, let me just say from the start that this is a very outlandish idea, even by the standards of a man who advocates Cacturne as a completely viable if not very good ADV OU Pokemon, and many of you will laugh at me and think I'm a noobcakes. I'm prepared to face the ridicule like a man!

So I've been testing a particular Pokemon lately- a Pokemon no one uses in ADV OU, ever- and honestly truly- not lying, trolling or fishing for a reaction- I think it's actually pretty good and it has a place in the metagame. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the end of my credibility- the almighty GLALIE!

Yes, Glalie. No, not kidding.

HEAR ME OUT!

-Glalie has both the highest base HP and the highest base Special Defense among all Spikes users. It's bulkier than you think.

-Glalie has an excellent offensive movepool- STAB Ice Beam, Crunch, Earthquake, Shadow Ball, Toxic, Taunt, Explosion and of course Spikes. These are among the very best moves in the game.

-Going a little further with the movepool, consider specific examples, such as common Rapid Spinners. Crunch really hurts Starmie and Claydol, Ice Beam gets Claydol and Donphan, Toxic gets Claydol, Cloyster and Donphan and only Donphan can do anything of note back to Glalie. You can build for Special Defense and make it take hits from bulky Starmie (and almost all Rapid Spin variants of Starmie are bulky) really well. The only Rapid Spin user it does not do so well against is Forretress to which I'd say simply pair it with Gengar. HP Fire is also possible but I'm not a fan.

-Taunt is also a worthwhile consideration, as Glalie is faster than several important Pokemon in the metagame, with noteworthy examples being Skarmory and Blissey. Taunting Skarmory with another Spikes user is really good.

-Glalie cannot be trapped by Magneton. Likewise, Glalie at full health will live (if you EV it to do so) anything Dugtrio throws at it and Glalie will 1HKO it back.

-Glalie cannot flinch (Inner Focus) and as such it lives Aerodactyl (or Salamence) Rock Slide and 1HKOs with STAB Ice Beam.

-Glalie is arguably the only Spikes user that Gengar doesn't switch into extremely safely. Gar switches in on Forre and Cloyster for free and easily respectively, whereas Gengar does not take Glalie STAB Ice Beams lightly and cannot do much back to Glalie of note, with Fire Punch and Hypnosis being the only real threats.

Assuming it doesn't have either of those moves, let's do the calc of Gengar vs Glalie assuming the best thing Gengar can do to it is Thunderbolt.

Gengar @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 20 SAtk / 188 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)

Glalie @ Leftovers
Trait: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)

Gengar Thunderbolt does 69-82 damage. Yes, really. MAX roll is 82 damage...

Glalie Ice Beam does 103-123.

Glalie wins this fight 1v1, especially if Gengar switches into Ice Beam initially.

Now, granted, those Glalie EVs are what they are to make a point and not necessarily optimal. You can EV Glalie a ton of ways to always live +1 Rock Slide as mentioned earlier, to always 2HKO specific things with STAB Ice Beam, etc. but the point stands that Glalie CAN be bulky and can be an issue for Gengar. You could also EV it to always 2HKO Gengar with Ice Beam in sand, meaning Gengar would have to be extremely cautious coming into it as it would eat Ice Beam, fail to 1HKO Glalie on its turn (even with Fire Punch) and then die to the subsequent second Ice Beam.

Not that is has much competition (Forretress, Skarmory, Cloyster) but Glalie is likely the best offensive option among Spikers. It can have, again depending on moveset and EVs, a legitimate offensive presence late in the game that can be tough to switch into. How many Pokemon safely switch into a Pokemon with both EQ and STAB Ice Beam? What if it also has Toxic or Crunch? With Spikes already down and stuff at less than full health in a late game situation, it may be tough to safely switch in. Forre or Skarmory, for example, cannot say the same.

Look... I'm not saying Glalie is a better Pokemon than Skarmory or anything like that, nor am I saying Glalie should replace your current Spiker on most of your ADV teams. Admittedly, it's niche and does not belong on every team. That said, I think when utilized to its full potential it's actually quite powerful and it definitely has a non-gimmicky legitimate place on offensive teams in ADV OU. I encourage others to ACTUALLY TRY IT before passing judgment. I was very skeptical when I first tried it too and thought I was just screwing around but to my great surprise it turned out to be really good. It's legit.

Let the hate begin!

252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Glalie: 382-450 (104.9 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO - Rest in Peace, Glalie.

Gengar isn't switching into Cacturne that comfortably either, seeing as how HP Dark hurts like the dickens. Just giving an example of a Spikes user that can handle Gar!

80 Base Speed is nice-ish, so is Taunt, Special bulk and dunking on spinners, but in all fairness spinners are easy to abuse anyways. So are spikers now I come to think of it (though it IS hard to stop them from Spiking which Glalie does in spades). 80 base attack means that Earthquake doesn't do nearly enough to Metagross or Jirachi to discourage them from switching in. Bulky Waters shrug it and Ice Beam off too (though Toxic stings).

I'm not saying it's a bad mon, and it definitely does something solid, but the metagame is less spikes-oriented than it was in the past and so its niche is diminished. That said it could work in mid C-, or maybe D assuming it ever gets made. Will have to take it out for a spin.

Also Cacturne is fine (seriously sick in all honesty), the real 'he's insane and noobish' moment was you saying 'Pert for top A+', which he is not.

 

[CALLOUS]

252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Glalie: 382-450 (104.9 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO - Rest in Peace, Glalie.

Well yeah, as stated, you have to EV it to live, so it would need Defense EVs. It can be made to live it 100% of the time.

Gengar isn't switching into Cacturne that comfortably either, seeing as how HP Dark hurts like the dickens. Just giving an example of a Spikes user that can handle Gar!

You don't have to convince me on Cacturne. Anyone who knows me knows I love that Pokemon and think it's super good.

Also Cacturne is fine (seriously sick in all honesty), the real 'he's insane and noobish' moment was you saying 'Pert for top A+', which he is not.

Agree to disagree (and I'm not the only one who agrees with my position on Pert) but either way this has no relevance to this thread. If we must continue that discussion, lets do it in the appropriate place.

 

[Disaster Area]

My personal favourite 'insane and noobish' moment is every time you rant against AstaRachi (that's the one with Body Slam) but this seems really cool. A wide movepool and probably plenty of EV configurations too, I'd like to see some sets thought out

 

[Cowboy Dan]

Oh this is cool, what move sets have you been trying out on it? I like the idea of crunch, ice beam, spikes, taunt/explosion with a speedier EV spread. Which ones have been most successful for you so far?

 

[CALLOUS]

Surprised, pleasantly, by the relatively open-minded feedback thus far!

So as far as spreads, it's actually quite versatile. Likewise, it's versatile with its moveset as well. It all depends on the team and what you need it to do.

So here are a few magic numbers worth noting.

Max HP and a Defense stat of 261 lives Jolly CB Aero Rock Slide in sand 100% of the time.

If Gengar is bulky and MODEST, meaning a 334 Special Attack Stat (note that most are Timid), Glalie needs Max HP and a Special Defense Stat of 254 to always live 2 Fire Punches in sand.

UNINVESTED Glalie will 1HKO, ONE HUNDRED PERCENT OF THE TIME, bulky DD Mence without sand. This mence cannot 1HKO Glalie, even with +1 Rock Slide, if you EV Glalie to live.

Glalie on its own is significantly faster than Skarmory and ties with it in Speed if you opt for a -Speed nature.

Against bulky Starmie, Glalie needs 270 Special Attack to ALWAYS 2HKO via Crunch in Sand. On the flipside, uninvested Glalie will always 3HKO in sand and it takes only a small investment (a Special Attack stat of 215) to always 3HKO without sand. AND bulky Star can do little to nothing back as illustrated in my next point...

So let's say Glalie has Max HP, 215 Special Attack to always 3HKO Starmie without sand and the rest dumped into Special Defense. In this instance, here are the numbers-

Surf, and therefore Psychic as well, have a damage range of 91-108. This is well short of a 3HKO even if sand were up and you were to get 3 max rolls. Also, at this Special Defense you'd also live 2 Gengar Fire Punches always, even in sand, as stated earlier.


In these examples I've generally taken the worst case scenario to truly test Glalie (Gengar being Modest as opposed to the more common Timid, Salamence being bulky as opposed to the much easier to KO offensive variant, etc.) and it passes all the tests. Now the caveat here is it cannot simultaneously do all of these things (You cannot heavily invest into HP, Defense AND Special Defense at the same time) so you have to pick and choose what you need it to do, but it can be made to do just about anything (sole exception- CB Meteor Mash). It's generally bulkier than you'd think- it just requires smart pre-planning.

 

[Ugly Duckling]

I think I saw a Glalie recently when laddering and didn't know what to think of it. Was that you I was playing?

On the subject at hand - I guess on paper he seems like a decent offensive Spiker. My first question is how do you switch him in? You only sort of addressed the point by showing some attacks he can tank, or at least be EV'd to tank, but I'm actually not really sure how you get this thing in to start Spiking up in the first place. I guess he can come in on opposing Regice, Blissey, Skarm, Forry, Cloyster, etc... But all those are at least somewhat threatening to Glalie in their own way. Do you have any replays we could watch to see him in action? I do like his move pool and the way he seems to have an advantage over most of the typical Spikers/Spinners/Spinblockers, as you well illustrated.

I will always appreciate the innovation and willingness to try new Pokes in ADV though!

 

[autumn leaves]

the fact it gets crunch for starmie makes me really like the idea. too bad it cant run all of spikes/ib/crunch/boom/taunt

 

[CALLOUS]

the fact it gets crunch for starmie makes me really like the idea. too bad it cant run all of spikes/ib/crunch/boom/taunt

Yeah, I agree with that sentiment completely. It has a great movepool but only 4 slots! The correct moveset varies with what you need it to do on your specific team, but generally Ice Beam and Spikes are mandatory. I find Crunch useful for sure, as it lets you beat Starmie 1v1, but the last spot is tough. EQ and Toxic are also options. All depends what you need it to beat!

 

[ThrashNinjax]

Did some more thinking and definitely Glalie is cool, however that said it does have some problems.

For me the biggest ones are the 4MSS+, which isn't just the awful 4MSS (you want Ice Beam and Spikes, Earthquake to 'deter' Metagross and Jirachi (as in at least make them notice that you're hitting them), Crunch to crunch Starmie, Toxic and / or Explosion to deter bulky waters, Taunt cause Taunt things, and you have only 4 moveslots for those 6-7 moves), its the thing that Glalie's stats are kinda meh without investment - mons like Tyranitar, Gengar and Suicune can do their job defensively whatever their investment but Glalie you have to actually jack a specific amount to do its job and this means that it can't do everything (I mean it can't Taunt Skarm and surprise IB freeze Tyranitar while being guaranteed to tank either 2 Hydros from Starmie or a Rock Slide from Aero on the same set - you have to cover it on the bases that it's not EVd for which kind of sucks). It's cool with a cool niche, but yeah that fact undermines a lot of what you said it can do defensively, cause it can't necessarily do all of that.

 

[CALLOUS]

Did some more thinking and definitely Glalie is cool, however that said it does have some problems.

For me the biggest ones are the 4MSS+, which isn't just the awful 4MSS (you want Ice Beam and Spikes, Earthquake to 'deter' Metagross and Jirachi (as in at least make them notice that you're hitting them), Crunch to crunch Starmie, Toxic and / or Explosion to deter bulky waters, Taunt cause Taunt things, and you have only 4 moveslots for those 6-7 moves), its the thing that Glalie's stats are kinda meh without investment - mons like Tyranitar, Gengar and Suicune can do their job defensively whatever their investment but Glalie you have to actually jack a specific amount to do its job and this means that it can't do everything (I mean it can't Taunt Skarm and surprise IB freeze Tyranitar while being guaranteed to tank either 2 Hydros from Starmie or a Rock Slide from Aero on the same set - you have to cover it on the bases that it's not EVd for which kind of sucks). It's cool with a cool niche, but yeah that fact undermines a lot of what you said it can do defensively, cause it can't necessarily do all of that.

I don't see how it "undermines" anything. It CAN do all the things I said it can do defensively. Those are verifiable mathematical facts. I NEVER claimed it could do all of them simultaneously and in fact I made a point to say, multiple times, that you have to pick and choose what you want it to do...

 

[autumn leaves]

earthquake probably isnt worth it, you do pitiful damage to its targets and it doesnt exactly stick around all game to consistently chip at them. probably best to stick to what glalie can do decently.

252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 188 Def Glalie: 307-362 (84.5 - 99.7%)

 

[CALLOUS]

earthquake probably isnt worth it, you do pitiful damage to its targets and it doesnt exactly stick around all game to consistently chip at them. probably best to stick to what glalie can do decently.

252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 188 Def Glalie: 307-362 (84.5 - 99.7%)

This.

The set I've been running, and having the most success with, does not have EQ or any attack investment whatsoever. Like BKC said, stick to what it does best.

 

[Disaster Area]

IMPORTANT
Glalie gets Sing but it's illegal with Spikes :'( just putting it out here before any unsuspecting trainer builds a team with it (like UD and I did)

We made this glorious lordsquad and now it has no home

Spoiler: RIP Moveset Combination Illegalities

The Other Good NU (Glalie) @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 144 HP / 132 Def / 124 SpA / 108 Spe
Modest Nature
- Sing
- Spikes
- Ice Beam
- Explosion

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 144 HP / 32 Def / 136 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Roar

Gengar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 68 Atk / 252 SpA / 188 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch
- Explosion
- Giga Drain

Magneton @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 68 HP / 252 SpA / 188 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 3 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Substitute
- Toxic

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Focus Punch

Flygon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 180 HP / 188 Atk / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Toxic

 

[CALLOUS]

Glalie with sing feels so weird. It doesn't strike me as a Pokemon that would have an excellent singing voice.

 

[ThrashNinjax]

IMPORTANT
Glalie gets Sing but it's illegal with Spikes :'( just putting it out here before any unsuspecting trainer builds a team with it (like UD and I did)

We made this glorious lordsquad and now it has no home

Spoiler: RIP Moveset Combination Illegalities

The Other Good NU (Glalie) @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 144 HP / 132 Def / 124 SpA / 108 Spe
Modest Nature
- Sing
- Spikes
- Ice Beam
- Explosion

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 144 HP / 32 Def / 136 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Roar

Gengar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 68 Atk / 252 SpA / 188 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch
- Explosion
- Giga Drain

Magneton @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 68 HP / 252 SpA / 188 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 3 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Substitute
- Toxic

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Focus Punch

Flygon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 180 HP / 188 Atk / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Toxic

'Lordsquad'
'Offensive Cune spread'
'Surf instead of Hydro'
LOLLLLLLLL

Glalie with sing feels so weird. It doesn't strike me as a Pokemon that would have an excellent singing voice.

You don't think Electrode would have a good singing voice either but it does! Injoke aside, it probably inherits Sing from Snorunt (which looks like a Snow Angel cmon)

 

[Cowboy Dan]

Surf is a fine option on offensive cune especially if you have spikes and sand to keep lax at bay. The PP can make a huge difference pretty often, not to mention the whole not missing 20% of the time thing which is nice if you need to face off an aerodactyl or something.