RBY OU Blastoise [GP Ready]

[Enigami]

Blastoise

Type: Water
Stats: 79 | 83 | 100 | 85 | 78

Introduction

With no shortage of excellent Water-types in 1U, Blastoise finds it has nothing to offer that isn't done better by something else. It has no secondary typing, leaving it with no secondary STAB or useful resistances. Its movepool is mediocre when most other Water-types possess great coverage or valuable support moves. Its stats are generally middle-of-the-road, leaving it with no strong traits. Blastoise just doesn't have what it needs to be viable in the higher tiers.

 

[Lusch]

First, I don't want to say it's viable, but it still has something that othe water types can't use.
Mainly EQ (no other water type gets it except Slowbro or Poliwrath, none of which can really afford to use a moveslot for it), which hits mainly paralyzed Jolteon and is also a 4HKO on Chansey, which usually doesn't 2HKO back (preparalyzing is necessary to pressure it but then again almost everything needs Chansey preparalyzed).
Also another niche is Counter, which can make him good vs Tauros or Snorlax (especially when soaking a Hyper Beam on the switch (80% chance to survive Crit Hyper Beam from Tauros))
Don't wanna oversell it but is still has niches over other waters (talking only waters here, since all that stuff also applies to like Kangaskhan or something non water typed...)

Edit: Standard Set:
Hydro Pump/Surf
Blizzard
Earthquake
Counter/Body Slam/Hyper Beam/Mimic

 

[Enigami]

That could be run by Poliwrath though, who would atleast have the advantage of catching someone offguard with that set.

 

[Disaster Area]

If I remember correctly, some pokemon or other (Starmie?) basically outdamages every target compared with Blastoise (considering the usefulness of EQ).. I guess that might exclude Chansey? But Blastoise still can't really hurt Chansey much.

 

[marcoasd]

4U material (at best).

 

[magic9mushroom]

If I remember correctly, some pokemon or other (Starmie?) basically outdamages every target compared with Blastoise (considering the usefulness of EQ).. I guess that might exclude Chansey? But Blastoise still can't really hurt Chansey much.

Starmie hits everything harder than Blastoise except Chansey and non-Zapdos Electrics.

Kingler hits everything harder than Blastoise except Gengar and Dragonite, once you account for Swords Dance (i.e. Kingler gets a "2HKO" on Jolt because +2 Hyper Beam OHKOs).

Poliwrath hits everything harder than Blastoise except stuff that's barely OHKOed/2HKOed by their Water and Ice moves (Moltres, Sandslash, probably a couple more somewhere). 3HKOs and up it easily pulls ahead with Amnesia.

Don't think there's one that technically gets all of them, unless you give a free turn of setup in which case Slowbro/Poliwrath obviously do.

 

[Party Boy]

I don't know what the etiquette is with individual analysis, especially one written so long ago, but I'd like to add something: Submission works well on Blastoise as Chansey is a common switch in. Submission 3HKOs Chansey.

With no shortage of excellent Water-types in 1U, Blastoise finds it has nothing to offer that isn't done better by something else.

If you're trying to use Blastoise as a substitute for the generic OU water types then it's inferior, but I think this is unfair to Blastoise. As mentioned above it learns Earthquake and Counter, two moves which I think make it unique.

I also disagree with Hydro Pump/Surf being mandatory - these moves are predictable and easily switched into. From my experience playing with Blastoise I find it's better to choose moves which hurt pokemon switching in.

 

[magic9mushroom]

Submission works well on Blastoise as Chansey is a common switch in. Submission 3HKOs Chansey.

You take about as much damage from Submission's recoil as you would from an extra Thunderbolt, and that's if they all hit (which is a coin-flip; Submission has 204 accuracy). Submission is not good against Chansey; give me EQ over that any day.

 

[Party Boy]

You take about as much damage from Submission's recoil as you would from an extra Thunderbolt, and that's if they all hit (which is a coin-flip; Submission has 204 accuracy). Submission is not good against Chansey; give me EQ over that any day.

But you can't kill Chansey with EQ. I can only use my experience of using Blastoise for reference; submission has been useful against paralysed Chansey, if not killing it then weakening it for whatever switches in. Realistically Blastoise should be avoiding any pokemon he would want to use EQ on (jolteon, gengar).

I think PP individual analysis are a fantastic resource, but they're often very theoretical. I think anticipating how other players will react to a pokemon is more important than the numbers, calculations etc. For example with Blastoise I never got a chance to use surf/hydro pump - pokemon it was super effective against never stayed in.

 

[magic9mushroom]

But you can't kill Chansey with EQ. I can only use my experience of using Blastoise for reference; submission has been useful against paralysed Chansey, if not killing it then weakening it for whatever switches in. Realistically Blastoise should be avoiding any pokemon he would want to use EQ on (jolteon, gengar).

I think PP individual analysis are a fantastic resource, but they're often very theoretical. I think anticipating how other players will react to a pokemon is more important than the numbers, calculations etc. For example with Blastoise I never got a chance to use surf/hydro pump - pokemon it was super effective against never stayed in.

I don't see the words "Surf" and "Hydro Pump" in my post. They're Blastoise's best tools against Tauros and Snorlax, but otherwise you're mostly right about them - Blizzard's usually enough.

Blastoise shouldn't be switching into Jolt and Gar, but EQ's literally the reason they (especially Gar) don't want to switch into *it*. That's literally the point of using Blastoise (and not Cloyster, Gyarados, Kingler, or Lapras). Now, it is possible to run a Pokemon without the standard moves everyone expects, and it can even do well for a while because they're effectively playing against a Pokemon with 5 or 6 moves (the ones it actually has, and the ones they expect it to have). But you must realise that that kind of bluff depends on it not being the done thing; if I know you don't use EQ on Blastoise then I won't play around the possibility and you're playing a shitty knockoff of one of those four. Surprise sets are neat for individual players (provided they don't use them all the time), but putting them in an analysis as main sets is kinda paradoxical; the moment they're there, they're outdated, because people will expect them. Sets that actually do get to be standard (usually) get there because they're inherently good enough to still be worth it if they're expected.

(You're not the first or the best to mistake an unexpected set's gains from surprise for inherent benefits of the set itself; it's an easy trap to fall into.)

 

[Enigami]

If you're trying to use Blastoise as a substitute for the generic OU water types then it's inferior, but I think this is unfair to Blastoise. As mentioned above it learns Earthquake and Counter, two moves which I think make it unique.

Nope. Slowbro learns both of those moves, has higher bulk, has the extremely valuable Psychic-typing, and though its attack stat is slightly lower, it still 2HKOs Jolteon and Gengar, the 2 only reasons you'd ever run Earthquake instead of a more useful move. It technically is faster, but there isn't anything slower than Blastoise that you need Earthquake for, and Slowbro can use Thunder Wave to gain speed advantage anyway. Blastoise is completely outclassed in any practical competitive aspects. Using Blastoise over Slowbro or another Water-type would be like using Dewgong over Lapras, a straight downgrade that only has speed as a flimsy excuse to ever use it.

 

[magic9mushroom]

Using Blastoise over Slowbro or another Water-type would be like using Dewgong over Lapras

Those Speed differentials are hardly comparable, given that one leapfrogs 2.5 of the big 4 and the other 0. Blastoise is bad, and I'll admit I forgot Slowbro learns EQ, but there's no need to make clearly-bogus analogies.

 

[Party Boy]

I don't see the words "Surf" and "Hydro Pump" in my post.

My second paragraph wasn't directed at you, that's why I made it a new paragraph. You sound defensive - I'm not "arguing" with you, we're having a friendly discussion

Now, it is possible to run a Pokemon without the standard moves everyone expects, and it can even do well for a while because they're effectively playing against a Pokemon with 5 or 6 moves (the ones it actually has, and the ones they expect it to have). But you must realise that that kind of bluff depends on it not being the done thing; if I know you don't use EQ on Blastoise then I won't play around the possibility and you're playing a shitty knockoff of one of those four. Surprise sets are neat for individual players (provided they don't use them all the time), but putting them in an analysis as main sets is kinda paradoxical; the moment they're there, they're outdated, because people will expect them. Sets that actually do get to be standard (usually) get there because they're inherently good enough to still be worth it if they're expected.

That's a really interesting observation which hadn't occurred to me.

 

[Sevi 7]

would be like using Dewgong over Lapras, a straight downgrade that only has speed as a flimsy excuse to ever use it.

But Dewgong can use its higher speed with Headbutt, which means when combined with Hyper Beam, you can flinch chansey to death 1% of the time. It's clearly being slept on right now.

 

[magic9mushroom]

But Dewgong can use its higher speed with Headbutt, which means when combined with Hyper Beam, you can flinch chansey to death 1% of the time. It's clearly being slept on right now.

Bit more than 1%, particularly if it's paralysed (and if it's not paralysed, why aren't you trying to freeze it?). Lapras with Confuse Ray + Hyper Beam isn't far from par, though (what's the distribution on confusion turns again? I forget).

(Amusingly, Lapras learns Headbutt in Tradebacks.)