DPP 1U: Latias Test

[Disaster Area]

The final thing to determine in DPP 1U is whether or not Latias should be legal. If anyone wants to have any sort of tournament, suspect requirements, or a ladder, please post it in this thread. Otherwise, we will have a vote on this in September (let's say September 5th to 12th as the period for the vote to happen). Please try and find and battle eachother! I will list people who are involved in this here, if you want to be involved please let me know (message me or vm me on here, or leave a message in the thread, or some other means) and I can add you to the list.

List of people:
autumn leaves (also known as BKC)
george182
ThrashNinjax (also known as Lord Ninjax and Fanisk21)

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You can also use this thread to discuss the suspect, share teams, comment on the metagame, etc. At some point I would like someone to start a viability ranking thread for DPP 1U (please speak to me before you do it though!) which at a later date will be used for determining DPP 2U.

 

[george182]

My concerns with Latias have always been about the Choice Specs set. Specifically Latias' ability to comfortably switch into half the OU tier while still having strong offensive capabilities. Dracco Meteor is such an easy move to spam and Surf is an excellent 'catch all' coverage move. Specs Latias switches in a lot, which is a problem because Specs Dracco Meteor hurts.

The pursuit weakness is a big factor that does help keep Latias balanced. But I have my own personal issues with pursuit, because it creates these incredibly high tension 50/50 moments that often decide the match. These 50/50s were a massive part of the latias meta.

I would be up for testing it though, the metagames changed a lot since the Lati + Mence era and it's hard to theorymon the power level of anything.

 

[ThrashNinjax]

So I've said leave Latias where the smogon mods left it 7 long years ago - cping my argument from another thread:

'I feel like the problem with Latias is that it would undisputedly be the top dog (top notch coverage, killer speed tier and solid offensive stats make it a threat, while simultaneously it hard checks Fighters / Grasses / Zapdos / Specially Offensive Waters and more, and of course it gives everyone another reason to run Heatran / Tyranitar / Jirachi, as if they needed one)'

The argument stands. I can't off the top of my head think of any mon Latias doesn't synergize pretty well with (maybe Zapper and some flyers), and probably worse, can't really think of any scenarios where one wouldn't want to throw Latias on as a breaker, all purpose glue, sweeper, or some mix of the three. It can do oh so much (Scarf, Specs, CM, a TWaving pivot set), has a variety of ways past its checks (inspired by TWave, but the Steels that check it don't really like Water Spam, or Heatran / Infernape, which can create momentum for it). Pursuit is an issue for it (so is U-Turn spamming), but it gets poor distribution - TTar, Scizor and Weavile, all of which are exploitable in their own way, and Latias is not. The other problem is that the mons that check it are already very prominent (TTar, Scizor, Heatran and Jirachi), so Latias dropping would not break the standard team archetype, simply give it a cool new toy to use. Imo, the metagame doesn't really need it, as it would make a lot of good mons (like Shaymin per se) irrelevant, and promote slower playstyles and the same old mons. Ultimately, though people might (with effort and a good deal of imagination) make it work, I don't think it will - Pre-emptive no.

 

[autumn leaves]

latias doesnt make shit irrelevant. latias was "merely" very good, and this would be in a metagame WITHOUT salamence (who I think was the real culprit behind the nonsensical lol dragons lol steels). I've played a fuckload of latias games and this is what I think based on playing it over and over. eventually I wouldnt even use latias on my team. it is not "near-mandatory" to use. I would still consider like 3 pokes more "mandatory" than it. shaymin and ape and zapdos (in fact zap was one of the worst pokes for one of my teams to deal with) among other things are still perfectly usable. plus latias is super pursuit bait and lure-able so if youre really that worried, just put in the effort to get rid of it like you would a starmie (no theyre not the same pokemon, I'm not saying that) and then proceed to destroy the team that should logically get wrecked by w/e w/o lati.

seriously

 

[Disaster Area]

I'm not much of a DPPer but I'll share my minor observation that it seems to me that right now in the non-latias metagame, some of its best answers [ttar rachi tran] are the most used or amongst the most used and common Pokémon in the metagame, and there still exists quite a few other common checks such as scizor / bronzong / metagross / skarm / other steels / etc. that are fairly present and viable too. It provides another check to loom and nape which to some degrees some players feel are a bit out of hand, so that's surely a good thing. I'm sure there's probably downsides to having it to but it looks to me like the meta could fit it fairly comfortably as it currently stands, and it wouldn't really 'centralise' the tier any further since most teams nowadays pack checks and answers for it anyway without latias even being in the metagame.

 

[george182]

Mar-10 STANDARD USAGE
Battles : 375391
+------+ ------------ + ------- -+ --------
| Rank | Name | Usage | Percent
+------+ ------------ + ------- -+ --------
| 1 | Scizor | 204410 | 27.23
| 2 | Tyranitar | 168163 | 22.4
| 3 | Salamence | 157044 | 20.92
| 4 | Heatran | 142891 | 19.03
| - | Rotom-A | 140549 | 18.72
| 5 | Latias | 140485 | 18.71
| 6 | Gyarados | 130298 | 17.35
| 7 | Jirachi | 128205 | 17.08
| 8 | Metagross | 117392 | 15.64
| 9 | Swampert | 116548 | 15.52
| 10 | Gengar | 113638 | 15.14
| 11 | Infernape | 110546 | 14.72
| 12 | Lucario | 104562 | 13.93
| 13 | Starmie | 89135 | 11.87
| 14 | Blissey | 86192 | 11.48
| 15 | Rotom-h | 85867 | 11.44
| 16 | Skarmory | 76862 | 10.24
| 17 | Gliscor | 74969 | 9.99
| 18 | Breloom | 73288 | 9.76
| 19 | Vaporeon | 71477 | 9.52
| 20 | Machamp | 70081 | 9.33


Those are the usage stats the month before Latias was banned. Arguments that Latias' most common counters are popular at the moment doesn't really hold any weight, because they were popular back when people decided to ban it.

You can see it was still considered a potent threat with it's two main counters in the number 1 and number 2 spot. CB Scizor and Scarf Tyranitar being the most popular sets at the time, both sets that run pursuit.

Zapdos is no where to be seen on here, it's actually all the way down at rank 33. Although this may be more related to the inclusion of Salamence.

The following is a quote from the Latias era:
"The issue (with Latias) is whether or not it's overcentralizing the metagame. If people have to run Pokémon x with move y to counter or defeat it, then it should be banned."

Since Latias' inclusion in DPP OU there was a clear trend in the rise of Latias counters, despite never being the number 1 used pokemon. With pursuit being on a lot of teams.

 

[Disaster Area]

Still, right now looking at smogon tour usage stats, tyranitar's at almost 50%, heatran is at about 40%, and jirachi is about 37%. I don't think Latias would do much to change sets.

I don't really think there'd be much of a shift with Latias being introduced, other than the introduction of teams that have latias. I don't think it would centralize the metagame in comparison to what the metagame is currently like whatsoever. I think we should test it and see how much that holds true but I don't think that centralization or brokenness - the two biggest concerns I think - are likely to turn out to be issues.

Latias answers and checks in the top 30:
Tyranitar [#1, 49% usage, great check]
Heatran [#2, 41% usage, good check]
Jirachi [#4, 38% usage, counter]
Scizor [#9, 20% usage, good check]
Gengar [#10, 19% usage, not a switch-in, but has speed and type advantage]
Metagross [#13, 16% usage, counter]
Lucario [#21, 10% usage, dragon switch-in only]
Skarmory [#22, 10% usage, okay check]
Empoleon [#23, 9% usage, switch-in, okay check]
Bronzong [#26, 7% usage, counter]
Magnezone [#27, 7% usage, weak check]
Also large parts of the remainder of the top 30 don't mind latias but depends upon the situation, and there's quite a few other checks like Weavile, Forretress, and Mamoswine lurking outside of the top 30.

 

[george182]

The over centralization argument was based on the fact that teams were forced to either use 2 steel types or the move pursuit.

At least that's how people felt at the time.

 

[Disaster Area]

The over centralization argument was based on the fact that teams were forced to either use 2 steel types or the move pursuit.

At least that's how people felt at the time.

A lot has changes in 8 years it seems..

As it is, pursuit and steel types are really common. A large portion have pursuit anyway, and of those that don't they'll at least have 1 steel type, with 2 being pretty possible. Steels are just good lol. I sorta feel like 8-9/10 teams currently used in the non-latias meta would be more or less perfectly viable in the latias meta.

But I don't really DPP properly so tell me if I'm wrong D:

 

[george182]

Steels types were more common in the Lati/Mence era. That is the most popular steel types have ever been in the history of Pokemon.

Pursuit was basically on 50% of teams, which is way more than currently. This may also be a record high in the history of Pokemon.

Teams at the moment will pretty much only pursuit with an offensive purpose. Weather that be a weavile to clear the way for Infernape, or Scarf tar for winning the entry hazard war. It's still linked to the teams win condition.

Back in the Latia's era this was not the case. Teams would run CB scizor purely for defensive purposes. Same with scarf tar.

 

[Disaster Area]

Steels types were more common in the Lati/Mence era. That is the most popular steel types have ever been in the history of Pokemon.

Pursuit was basically on 50% of teams, which is way more than currently. This may also be a record high in the history of Pokemon.

Teams at the moment will pretty much only pursuit with an offensive purpose. Weather that be a weavile to clear the way for Infernape, or Scarf tar for winning the entry hazard war. It's still linked to the teams win condition.

Back in the Latia's era this was not the case. Teams would run CB scizor purely for defensive purposes. Same with scarf tar.

Agreeing with this, but I think that like 80%+ teams are already prepared for latias so I don't feel like it's going to be hugely centralizing or conceivably broken, even if it does shift the metagame a bit and change how certain types of teams tend to structure themselves.

 

[ThrashNinjax]

Found a more direct variant of my argument against Latias, courtesy of Smogon user badabing:
"as for lati, i mean... it's so fucking good lmao. it would stick out like a sore thumb and immediately centralize the metagame. it hard checks almost all of the special side of the tier with more reliable offense and support than anything else. it's shutting so many motherfuckers down with significantly less ways to pressure it or say "you're not fucking switching into this" compared to later gens. it would be used on every team.

"but there's ttar and jira mang" -- well dam g, imagine if those zapdos dug shits suddenly got tooken to another level... or what if a balanced tier suddenly reverted to spike wars with stupid ass, tacked-on lucarios because you have to do certain things vs lati. gonna have to cater to the yunger demographic and say no to that legendary."

Also BKC I don't recall saying "near-mandatory" anywhere and can't find the statement in my first post (what I meant, and what is shown above, is that Latias would by virtue of its virtues become the top pick for the roles I mentioned).

Saying Latias is lure-able is kind of a stretch as it has really good bulk and no 4x weaknesses so even putting a hole in it is surprisingly difficult, and your options for doing so (unless you're running an all-out U-Turn spamming HO or something) are a lot more limited than those for Starmie per se (which has lower defenses (meaning even things like Gyarados, Infernape and Heatran that it's supposed to check can power through it - if Starmie had Lati level defenses that's be a lot harder), an arguably worse typing and lower threat factor, leading to it being more exploitable overall).

To Disaster Area, the reason Pursuit was so common even after Latias left was because Starmie caught on and people ran Pursuit to remove it and control the Hazard Game - this trend has dropped off recently though, because people are realizing that a). Bold Starmie is fairly exploitable by offensive mons even without Pursuit, and b). Pursuiters (TTar, Zor and Weavile), are set-up bait for the twin terrors that are Infernape and Breloom, and no-one wants to deal with those. Likewise the Steels people use are usually just Offensive Jirachi and / or Heatran, which are built more for busting holes and luring some things (Flygon, offensive waters) than staving off a threatening mon like Latias in the long run - most teams are still susceptible to a well-played Latias, and fall against a solid team built to support Latias (however minimally).

(as a side-note I was surprised Gengar was so high, even so it only ties with Lati on speed and gets crucified by every move in its arsenal, in no universe is it even a check).

I hate to play the 'it'll ruin the metagame card' (especially because as Earthworm so wisely commented in the previous thread that we don't have any way of knowing what exactly will happen), but again I think Latias' drop will be problematic, and people will revert to using the sets that were used to check it in the LatiMence era (ScarfTar, SDef Tran, WishCM Jirachi and CB Scizor) (mostly because it's easier to just use those than come up with some new things to deal with it - as the proliferation of Spikes + Aero Offense in ADV and TTar + Tran + Jira + Loom + Star + Gon teams in DPP shows, people prefer using what's boring because it's easy to come up with and it works) - which will lead to an overall slower metagame - 'spike wars' in the wise words of badaking (as a side note, PDC remarked that he remembers the LatiMence era as a 'semi-stall fest'). I mean it is possible to make it work (U-Turn being more common does take it down a notch as a defensive mon, while it is a cool tool for bulky offensive teams (which imo are the way to go everywhere because they play at a solid tempo and are more free for creativity thereby), but I don't know if we should run the (pretty big) risk of it going wrong in such a fledgling environment. Maybe in a few years, for now NO.

 

[autumn leaves]

latias is lurable in the sense that it is so strong and so common and shit that you take advantage of this bc you know when it's coming out to try and defecate on you and hit it with that toxic or twave or uturn or double switch or whatever you might have.

those pokemon you listed as checks from back then are perfectly viable/good now, so... also spdef tran was not used back then

I cannot stand it when people go "yeah they'll just use the best pokemon to counter this top tier threat because they're so unoriginal lol boring metagame!" like do you want everyone to be some creative virtuoso and to not use the best options available to them????????????? not to mention that happens already soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

yes, latimence was a """semistall fest""" lol your point being?

those pokes you mentioned can easily lure and power through latias. it is not this impenetrable beast you are making it out to be.