1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome to Pokemon Perfect, Guest!

    Our motto is Pokémon Practice makes Pokémon Perfect. We are a competitive-battling community that encourages the development of players and their ideas, and fosters positive and respectful attitudes. We love Collaboration (working together), Competition (getting stronger), and Communication (being informed).

    You are free to post everywhere, unless the thread explicitly states otherwise (usually in the case of a vote), and there are no private forums whatsoever. We just require you to not make multiple accounts. Let us greet you by posting a thread in the Introduce Yourself! forum.

  3. Tiers

    View Introduction to Tiers if you don't know what tiers are. Pokémon Perfect tiers are named differently to those on Smogon. A numeral followed by the letter U, e.g. 1U, 2U, 3U, represents a main tier on Pokémon Perfect – the '1' of '1U' representing the tier level. For a tier to be a main tier, it must be balanced (nothing is too powerful and game-breaking) and diverse enough (include a variety of Pokémon and strategies). A numeral followed by the letter P, e.g. 1P, 2P, 3P contain all Pokémon that are deemed overpowered in the respective 1U, 2U, 3U tiers. The 1st tier level allows Pokémon that are banned in the 2nd level, and this process continues down. Read the tier list, and in-depth explanations of the tiers naming system and tiering system. Also check out our analyses for all tiers.

  4. Tournaments

    RBY 1U Seasons and its master tournaments are responsible for starting up the community, and tournaments continue to play a big role in maintaining interest in the forums. Signups Open gives you a list of tournaments you can join, and Ongoing lists tournaments that you might want to follow. Additionally, you can tap to find out approximate Schedules for tournaments.

    For historical threads, check out Signups Closed, Finished tournaments and Results. We also have Nominations, Voting and Event threads for exhibitions – past and present.

RBY 15/15/15/15 DVs are impossible (in most cases)

Discussion in 'Analysis and Research' started by Disaster Area, May 25, 2016.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,593
    Likes Received:
    2,489
    Original thread on Smogon: Gen 1 - 15/15/15/15 DVs are impossible (in most cases) | Smogon Forums

    My reaction:
    So, what do we do about this, and does anyone want to do some digging? I'd keep an eye on the thread on Smogon too
     
  2. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 16, 2013
    Messages:
    2,061
    Likes Received:
    1,315
    I'll c/p what I said on smogon

    So yeah, a lot of work needs to be done to understand the specific details of what this entails, but once we've worked everything out this will probably prove to be a big deal. Also as mentioned, not sure about fishing, I looked for the encounter rate when fishing and all I found was some gamefaqs article saying it's 33% (except for old rod, which I think is irrelevant because Magikarp doesn't require a random encounter to be obtained) buuuuut I have no idea how reliable it is, I'd say it's probably not reliable lol

    edit: I had a look at that link I posted, and it turns out that contrary to what the op says, you can obtain graveler at a decent encounter rate (25) ... the big issue is that it's at lvl 55 (unknown dungeon), which bears moveset implications (though I'm not sure if they're competitively relevant). Best you can do for Haunt/Gast is 20.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
    Disaster Area likes this.
  3. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    668
    So, if that list is accurate for 25's:

    15/15/14/15 - Highest IV spread (loss of 4 HP)
    15/15/15/7 - Highest IV spread with maximum Special IVs
    15/3/14/15 - Highest IV spread with minimum Attack IVs (loss of 4 HP)

    Here's every change in KOs I could find for 15/15/14/15 Golem from what I've checked so far:

    Snorlax Surf vs. Golem: 306-360 (85.2 - 100.2%) -- 2.6% chance to OHKO (was 2HKO)
    Tauros Earthquake vs. Golem: 120-142 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (was '100%', could fail to 3HKO with constant min rolls)
    Exeggutor Psychic vs. Golem: 165-195 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 54.8% chance to 2HKO (was 25.9%)
    Alakazam Psychic vs. Golem: 176-207 (49 - 57.6%) -- 96.8% chance to 2HKO (was 77.8%)
    Zapdos Drill Peck vs. Golem: 34-40 (9.4 - 11.1%) -- possible 9HKO (was 10HKO)
    Slowbro Psychic vs. Golem: 122-144 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (was '100%', also has a tiny chance to KO with max roll > Spec drop > max roll)
    Lapras Blizzard vs. Golem: 405-476 (112.8 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (was 92.3%)
    Jynx Blizzard vs. Golem: 405-476 (112.8 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (was 92.3%)
    Gengar Psychic vs. Golem: 113-133 (31.4 - 37%) -- 81% chance to 3HKO (was 49%)
    Jolteon Double Kick (2 hits) vs. Golem: 60-72 (16.7 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO (was possible 6HKO)
    Cloyster Blizzard vs. Golem: 342-402 (95.2 - 111.9%) -- 71.8% chance to OHKO (was 48.7%)
    Hypno Psychic vs. Golem: 156-184 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO (was 3HKO)
    Victreebel (non-crit) Razor Leaf vs. Golem: 350-412 (97.4 - 114.7%) -- 84.6% chance to OHKO (was 61.5%)
    Sandslash Earthquake vs. Golem: 180-212 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (was 99.5%)
    +2 Sandslash Earthquake vs. Golem: 362-426 (100.8 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (was 97.4%)
    Moltres Fire Blast vs. Golem: 109-129 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- 41.6% chance to 3HKO (was 14.3%)
    Articuno Ice Beam vs. Golem: 352-414 (98 - 115.3%) -- 87.2% chance to OHKO (was 66.7%)
    Dugtrio Earthquake vs. Golem: 158-186 (44 - 51.8%) -- 10.8% chance to 2HKO (was 5.4%)
    Pinsir Submission vs. Golem: 114-134 (31.7 - 37.3%) -- 87.7% chance to 3HKO (was 77.7%)


    Probably the biggest changes are Lapras and Jynx (and +2 Sandslash) not dropping KOs due to low rolls, Alakazam much more reliably 2HKOing, Cloyster having a roughly 7/10 chance instead of 1/2 to OHKO, and being quite a bit more likely to be 3HKO'd by Moltres' Fire Blast. Also, Zapdos and Jolteon can KO one turn early if they get very very lucky with back to back max rolls. Golem can go 15/15/15/7 to keep that extra bit of bulk, but this comes at the cost of being outsped by other Golems and Rhydon as well. If an encounter rate of 30 can get 15/15/15/15, this could help Rhydon close the distance after the Body Slam mechanics correction (EDIT: It definitely can if in-game trades can be 15/15/15/15 - trade Golduck for Rhydon in Pokemon Yellow at Cinnabar Island). This does not factor IV limitations for anything but Golem.

    This will certainly be interesting to see how this affects different Pokemon. If I understood correctly, Pokemon obtained by non-wild encounters can still have 15/15/15/15, so at the very least Jynx and Lapras will appreciate the reliable OHKOs. Moltres also benefits from having a slightly better chance to blast through Golem.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
  4. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    668
    This should be a list of 'safe' 15/15/15/15 mons, as they probably won't be affected by this as they are obtainable through in-game trades, gifts (including Amnesia Psyduck), Celadon Game Corner prizes, fixed encounters, event giveaways or as a starter.

    -(?) is event mons, my guess is they'd be fully randomized.
    -*JPN can only be obtained from Pokemon Blue (JPN), which cannot trade with English roms. This would mean those Pokemon are only 'safe' via in-game trades in Pokemon Blue (JPN) and cannot be used in English RBY, where Blizzard has a 10% freeze chance instead of 30%
    -(pokemon) are 'safe' Pokemon through evolving the obtainable 'safe' pre-evolution.



    Abra (Kadabra, Alakazam)
    Aerodactyl
    Articuno
    Bulbasaur (Ivysaur, Venusaur)
    Charmander (Charmeleon, Charizard)
    Clefairy (Clefable)
    Dratini (Dragonair, Dragonite)
    Dugtrio
    Eevee (Flareon, Jolteon, Vaporeon)
    Electrode
    Farfetch'd
    Fearow(?) *JPN
    Golem *JPN
    Gengar *JPN
    Hitmonchan
    Hitmonlee
    Horsea (Seadra)
    Jynx
    Kangaskhan *JPN
    Krabby *JPN (Kingler *JPN)
    Lapras
    Lickitung
    Machamp
    Mew(?)
    Mewtwo
    Moltres
    Mr. Mime
    Muk
    Nidoran-F (Nidorina, Nidoqueen)
    Nidoran-M (Nidorino, Nidoking)
    Omanyte (Omastar)
    Parasect
    Pikachu (Raichu)
    Pinsir
    Poliwag *JPN (Poliwhirl *JPN, Poliwrath *JPN)
    Porygon
    Psyduck (Golduck)
    Rapidash(?) *JPN
    Rhydon
    Scyther
    Seel (Dewgong)
    Slowpoke *JPN (Slowbro *JPN)
    Snorlax
    Squirtle (Wartortle, Blastoise)
    Tangela
    Tauros *JPN
    Vuplix (Ninetales)
    Wigglytuff
    Zapdos
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
    Disaster Area likes this.
  5. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,593
    Likes Received:
    2,489
    I just had a thought

    can you obtain perfect DV Pokémon from Stadium?

    -

    Also it turns out you can still obtain perfect DV Pokémon via mew glitch.

    So perfect DV Pokémon are obtainable without outside interference [i.e. using in-game glitches only]. So it would be a bit like using the Pomeg Glitch in ADV LC
     
  6. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    668
    Would we consider using glitches legal though? I mean, you can use glitches to obtain things like Surf Dodrio, Spore Electrode, etc.
     
  7. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 16, 2013
    Messages:
    2,061
    Likes Received:
    1,315
    Uh Enigami, that list was atk/def/spd/spc, so 15/15/15/7 is actually the best DV spread that maximises speed, not special, which is just something that seemed to be recurring throughout your post

    I just realised in my response to this that it's inconsistent with the approach to min-atk mons. I stopped looking into it when I heard of a glitch that facilitated this, but I think that was the wrong thing to do for the reasons I mentioned earlier
     
  8. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    668
    Oh, misread... That changes things quite a bit, the 15/15/14/15 spread only reduces Speed by 2 and HP by 4. This means Golem's bulk would be barely affected while still outspeeding Rhydon, with 15/15/15/7 a bad spread that only benefits Golem in dittos. However, speed being affected could be very important for Pokemon such as Tauros if the 30 encounter rate has a similar optimum spread, having to choose between better overall stats or outspeeding Pokemon in the same speed tier using the slower spread.
     
  9. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    700
    Likes Received:
    418
    RBY never fails to surprise.
     
    Peasounay and Disaster Area like this.
  10. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Host Emeritus

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2013
    Messages:
    637
    Likes Received:
    360
    I posted this on Smogon, but I'll repost it here as well: I think it's easy enough to allow perfect Pokemon through any number of rationalizations you want. Here's my favorite, so let's just go with this: you can catch or breed them in GSC and trade them back with any DV distribution. Think about what the tradebacks meta means for a second, in real, practical terms: no tradebacks means Pokemon who obtain moves exclusively in GSC cannot use those moves in RBY. If you and I got together with a link cable and Red and Blue cartridges, and I said "no tradebacks," you would with 100% certainty understand that I'm talking about move distribution, and that I'm *not* saying that if you trained up and hatched Pokemon in GSC to get the best stats for the battle that you can't use those Pokemon in the match. So ... so what's the issue, right? I mean, whenever we use a Jynx not nicknamed Lola or a Mr. Mime not nicknamed Marcel, we technically would have had to catch it wild or breed it in GSC and trade it back to RBY (because in pure RBY cartridges, those Pokemon are only available via trade with NPCs who locked in those nicknames). So when you think about it, we're already playing in a simulated environment where perfect DVs are possible, because "no tradebacks" only refers to move distribution, NOT to where the Pokemon you're battling was obtained. The Jynx I use as a lead in a given match was traded back from GSC because it's not nicknamed Lola. The Gengar I use as a lead in a given match was traded back from GSC and that's why it has perfect DVs. Easy.
     
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,593
    Likes Received:
    2,489
    As far as I understnad it there's some set of limitations in GSC as well. Would be interested in hearing what your other possibilities are. I think due to complexity this won't end up being implemented in any particular way but it is relevant to the case of obtaining pokemon with perfect DVs in-game should people wish to do that
     
  12. RBYer

    RBYer Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2016
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    16
    However you want to look at it, that is still tradebacks in RBY. While the tradition may be more tied to moves which I won't deny, I strongly disagree with deviating from the philosophical basis of "if it can't be obtained in Generation 1 without glitch abuse, it shouldn't be allowed in Generation 1".

    I do also think that all Mr. Mimes should be named Marcel, and all Jynxes named Lola.

    I also think the baseline of "simulate in-battle glitches but don't allow out-of-battle glitches as legitimate means of obtaining Pokemon" is something which is both possible to implement, and as true to the games as possible.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,593
    Likes Received:
    2,489
    I see the draw in that, but some Pokémon are obtainable from stadium I gather? So whatever can legally be obtained with perfect DVs from stadium without using tradebacks (in a moves context, amnesia golduck is a great example) can be used in RBY, in the same way anything from XD can be used in ADV 1U.

    The other thing is complexity of implementation and the ability to complete the dataset. If we can obtain a complete dataset then I don't see why we shouldn't implement it so long as we're sure we've absolutely not missed anything.
     
  14. RBYer

    RBYer Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2016
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    16
    Actually obtaining the dataset shouldn't be particularly difficult. There is an RBY disassembly and if nobody else wants to tackle it, I guess I may be able to.

    You could theoretically simulate all possible RNG combinations in a loop and then just record the results. I haven't had a look at it but that would be basically the brute force approach for a worst-case scenario.

    I don't think all that many Pokemon are available via Stadium. Maybe just Psyduck?
     
  15. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,593
    Likes Received:
    2,489
    ok

    what about pokemon obtainable from stadium?

    (I assume pokemon are obtainable from stadium; I've never played on cartridge before generation 3 so I might be saying very stupid things)
     
  16. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,593
    Likes Received:
    2,489
    Also, just allowing glitched Pokémon (w.r.t. DVs) is an easy workaround to the problem. It involves adapting the philosophy but if it can be done risk-free without damaging the game then I don't see the issue. Our philosophy could be adapted to allowing glitches that only affect DVs/IVs/EVs rather than movesets/base stats + have the rule that Pokémon must appear in the pokedex or something along those lines. I don't know how to word it exactly but I guess saying:
    You can only use moves you could obtain without the use of glitches on a Pokémon through English R/B/Y/Stadium, you can obtain stat adjustments (DV/EV only) through the use of glitches however. And then purist RBY can also coexist with the limitations that not allowing glitching for DVs cause.

    -

    In an ideal world we'd also replicate the PRNG function to in-battle probabilities...
     
    Ortheore likes this.
  17. RBYer

    RBYer Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2016
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    16
    As soon as you adapt an ideology to allow for glitches, you are breaking a barrier which can be so easily preserved.

    As far as I'm concerned Stadium is every bit as legitimate a part of Generation 1 as RBY, so the argument that glitches are somehow comparable to Stadium is completely lost on me.
     
  18. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    700
    Likes Received:
    418
    This is where most people are going to disagree with you. "No tradebacks" is the preservation of the exact metagame which existed on cartridge prior to the release of Gold and Silver. Logically, things which require GSC tradebacks were not a part of that metagame, therefore they will never be a part of the "no tradebacks" metagame from now until the end of time, full stop.

    Just like you may not use Pokemon from FireRed, LeafGreen, or Emerald in the RS200 metagame, which is the preservation of the exact metagame which existed on Ruby and Sapphire cartridge prior to the release of FireRed and LeafGreen.
     
    Disaster Area likes this.
  19. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Host Emeritus

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2013
    Messages:
    637
    Likes Received:
    360
    I find that almost impossible to believe. Say it's 2001 and you and I are getting together to have a tournament in RBY. We both have the full Pokemon ecosystem available - all carts, Stadium 1 and 2, transfer paks, game link cables, multiple game boys, the works. If I say "no tradebacks," there is no doubt at all I'm talking about move legality. BUT if you popped your Snorlax over to Gold for a second because you had an extra Rest TM there and it's easier than resetting one of your cartridges and playing through to get a fresh one, you would do it. If you wanted a Jynx not named Lola, you'd catch one in Silver and pop it back. If you had a level 100 Eggy with great stats already but you wanted to give it Sleep Powder and its current moveset doesn't have it, you'd bring it to Stadium 2 to use the move relearner there. You would do all of those things and then pop the Pokemon back into your copy of Blue and battle me and neither of us would think anything of it.

    In ANY case, the ultimate point I was making in my original post is there are tons of ways to rationalize how we could allow perfect Pokemon now, even after this discovery. My proposed way was to officially define "No Tradebacks" as specifically an issue of Pokemon/move legality and that's it. All other rules of typical RBY stand (no glitch Pokemon, no impossible movesets), the generally understood meaning of No Tradebacks stands (no new Pokemon or moves/move combinations), but it allows for Pokemon to be bred or caught in GSC and traded back, and the ONLY thing that would affect would officially allow any DV combination (and nicknameless Jynx/Mr. Mime) ... which, again, is the meta we technically play right now. I feel that's the easiest/least stressful way to rationalize it (if you hate the "You can Ditto Glitch them in RBY" rationalization), because in real, practical terms, that is exactly how RBY was played after GSC came out, even with the "No Tradebacks" rule.
     
    Disaster Area likes this.
  20. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Host Emeritus

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2013
    Messages:
    637
    Likes Received:
    360
    Bred Pokemon get their DVs from their opposite gendered parent or Ditto in GSC, so if you can get a perfect Ditto then it's moot.
     

Share This Page