1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome to Pokemon Perfect, Guest!

    Our motto is Pokémon Practice makes Pokémon Perfect. We are a competitive-battling community that encourages the development of players and their ideas, and fosters positive and respectful attitudes. We love Collaboration (working together), Competition (getting stronger), and Communication (being informed).

    You are free to post everywhere, unless the thread explicitly states otherwise (usually in the case of a vote), and there are no private forums whatsoever. We just require you to not make multiple accounts. Let us greet you by posting a thread in the Introduce Yourself! forum.

  3. Tiers

    View Introduction to Tiers if you don't know what tiers are. Pokémon Perfect tiers are named differently to those on Smogon. A numeral followed by the letter U, e.g. 1U, 2U, 3U, represents a main tier on Pokémon Perfect – the '1' of '1U' representing the tier level. For a tier to be a main tier, it must be balanced (nothing is too powerful and game-breaking) and diverse enough (include a variety of Pokémon and strategies). A numeral followed by the letter P, e.g. 1P, 2P, 3P contain all Pokémon that are deemed overpowered in the respective 1U, 2U, 3U tiers. The 1st tier level allows Pokémon that are banned in the 2nd level, and this process continues down. Read the tier list, and in-depth explanations of the tiers naming system and tiering system. Also check out our analyses for all tiers.

  4. Tournaments

    RBY 1U Seasons and its master tournaments are responsible for starting up the community, and tournaments continue to play a big role in maintaining interest in the forums. Signups Open gives you a list of tournaments you can join, and Ongoing lists tournaments that you might want to follow. Additionally, you can tap to find out approximate Schedules for tournaments.

    For historical threads, check out Signups Closed, Finished tournaments and Results. We also have Nominations, Voting and Event threads for exhibitions – past and present.

GSC OU (OverUsed) Zapdos [GP Ready]

Discussion in 'Individual Analyses' started by Sceptross, Dec 2, 2017.

  1. Sceptross

    Sceptross Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2016
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    691
    Zapdos [​IMG]
    Type: Electric / Flying
    Stats: 90 / 90 / 85 / 125 / 90 / 100

    Introduction

    Of the legendary birds, Zapdos has always stood out more than the others, and that certainly holds true in GSC. Zapdos' secondary Flying typing grants it an immunity to Ground-type moves and resistances to Fighting- and Bug-type attacks, allowing it to work as an excellent check to pokemon such as Steelix, Skarmory, and Heracross. Its Electric-typing, combined with good overall stats including a high Special Attack stat enable Zapdos to also function as a potent offensive threat. This in turn enables it to offensively check common Water-types, such as Vaporeon and Cloyster. All this makes Zapdos one of the top contenders of GSC 1U. In fact, it is so good that either Zapdos or Raikou (or even both) should be used on the vast majority of serious teams.

    Sets

    RestTalk

    Zapdos @ Leftovers
    DVs: 13 Def
    - Thunder
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Set Details

    The standard Zapdos set, and the one you should generally expect when you see it. Zapdos has a great typing, having only two weaknesses, as well as fantastic defensive stats, which, coupled with Rest and Sleep Talk, allow it to wall a good portion of the metagame. Thunder is preferred over Thunderbolt because of the higher paralysis chance and because the extra damage allows it to reach some very important thresholds (like, for instance, OHKO'ing Starmie 100% of the time, unlike Thunderbolt, which is only a 2HKO). Thunder is very spammable, because of how many things Zapdos scares out and the low amount of electric resistances in the tier. Hidden Power Ice is used as coverage to guarantee that it can put pressure Ground-types like Golem, Rhydon, Marowak and Nidoking (all of which could very easily switch into Zapdos and put pressure on it otherwise) and not be completely walled by Steelix and Grass-types such as Exeggutor. Lastly, Sleep Talk means Zapdos can perform the role of sleep absorber, something it excels at due to being able to sleep to the most common sleep inducers (Exeggutor and Nidoking) and still being able to be threatening whilst asleep. Having Sleep Talk also means it's not complete setup bait for setup sweepers.

    Other options

    Zapdos can phaze with Whirlwind or Roar, but Raikou usually does that better, due to forcing more switches (lots of Pokemons carry an Ice or Rock-type move, such as other Zapdos, Gengar and Tyranitar). It can also support its teammates with Light Screen. Or Reflect, but once again, Raikou does that better because of the prominence of Rock and Ice moves. Hidden Power Water can be used over Hidden Power Ice in order to hit Rock types and Steelix harder, while still hitting Marowak super effectively, but that leaves Zapdos with no coverage for Exeggutor and without a solid option for other Zapdos. Using Hidden Power Water also means forfeiting a small amount of bulk, because of the DVs required to get it. Hidden Power Fire is an option if you want to hit Forretress and Steelix harder while still hitting Exeggutor, but keep in mind HP Fire only has 50% chances of OHKO'ing Forretress and Steelix can't really get past Zapdos without Explosion unless it has Curse and Rock Slide. Zapdos can also use Drill Peck, but it's generally not a good option, because it's already a good counter to Heracross without it and it doesn't 2HKO Exeggutor nor 3HKO Blissey 99% of the time. Thunderbolt can be used if you really hate the poor accuracy, but the both the smaller paralysis chance and lack of power are very noticeable. Thunder Wave is also an option if you are using a late game sweeper like Marowak, Tentacruel or Charizard and want to make their jobs easier, but that means dropping Sleep Talk, and Zapdos loses a lot of its walling potential that way, not to mention its great role as a sleep absorber. Magnet can also be used if you want your Thunders to be stronger and punish Thief users, but the downside of losing Leftovers recovery is too noticeable to make it worthwhile most of the time.

    Zapdos vs Raikou

    In GSC, Zapdos and Raikou are compared a lot, and you should generally use either one or the other in your team. Each one has its ups and downs, which will be listed here:

    Zapdos is immune to Spikes and Earthquake

    Being a Flying type, that means Zapdos won't take Spikes damage when coming in. That means Zapdos has usually an easier time switching in and doesn't need to Rest as early as Raikou. It also means it can be used to chain switch against Pokémon that have Ground moves, like Nidoking or Marowak, as well as check Nidoking and Machamp much better than Raikou (in fact, Raikou is forced out against Nidoking and is more threatened by Machamp, although Machamp doesn't like to take a Thunder either). The utility of a Ground immunity in general should never be underestimated either.

    Zapdos doesn't resist Electric type moves, and is weak to Ice and Rock type moves.

    This means Zapdos can't check Electrics as well as Raikou does, and takes more damage from Pokemon like Tyranitar and Gengar.

    Zapdos resists Bug and Fighting type moves.

    This means Zapdos can act as a good switch-in against Pokemon like Heracross and Machamp without Rock Slide, something Raikou cannot.

    Zapdos is slower than Raikou.

    Raikou can speed tie Starmie and outspeed Miltank and Gengar. Zapdos speed ties Miltank and is outsped by the others. This makes a big difference vs Gengar mostly, which, along with the fact that Zapdos is weak to Ice Punch, makes Raikou have a much easier time with it than Zapdos.

    Zapdos has slightly bigger physical bulk, whereas Raikou has slightly bigger special bulk.

    Usually not a decisive factor when choosing one or the other, but always good to know.

    Teambuilding nuances

    Apart from these, there are also some teambuilding factors that may make a player choose one over the other. Zapdos is usually seen more often on offensive teams, whereas Raikou is oftenly used on defensive teams. When choosing between Steelix and Skarmory, Skarmory is usually paired with Raikou and Steelix with Zapdos, since Skarmory helps with the ground weakness Raikou has and Steelix helps with Zapdos' Raikou weakness, but these are, obviously, not mandatory.

    Checks and Counters

    Raikou is the best counter of the game to Zapdos. Not only it takes negligible damage from Thunder and Hidden Power, it can also heavily threaten Zapdos with its own Thunder, due to Zapdos not resisting it. Raikou needs to watch out for the paralysis chance of Thunder, though. Snorlax can also act as a check if it's carrying Rest, switching in and threaten to set up or simply hit with its STAB move, but takes more damage than Raikou and can be forced to immediatly Rest because of the damage, specially if Spikes are up. Umbreon can also threaten to TrapPass to a counter, but the same can be said about any non-phazer that doesn't carry Belly Drum or Explosion. Blissey can function as a wall against standard Zapdos (and Raikou, for that matter). Tyranitar and Nidoking can threaten Zapdos if it's asleep or paralyzed with Rock Slide and Ice Beam, but both need to be careful with Thunder and Hidden Power Ice, respectively. Exeggutor walls Zapdos if it's running Hidden Power Water instead of Hidden Power Ice. Also, although much less common, Quagsire and Piloswine can counter Zapdos too, because of their immunity to Thunder and neutrality to Hidden Power Ice.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
  2. Sceptross

    Sceptross Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2016
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    691
    Big shoutouts to FriendOfMrGolem120 for helping me with this. In fact, he helped me so much that I might as well say it was authored by both of us. Thanks to Ariel Rebel for helping too, although not as much, still a very valuable help nonetheless.
     
    HML am and FriendOfMrGolem120 like this.
  3. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,037
    Likes Received:
    563
    You list Magnet... is Scope Lens at all something to consider as well? It's 2x crit rate (to like 1/8 chance from 1/16) vs. 10% Thunder boost, seems to me if there's merit for Magnet, Scope Lens is a considerable option too.
     
  4. FriendOfMrGolem120

    FriendOfMrGolem120 aka. "FOMG" Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2017
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    215
    I suggested to add Magnet and it is already a bit gimmicky. I sometimes use Magnet on Thief-spam teams (2-3 pokemon with Thief) that are highly offensive.
    To give an example: Magnet Zapdos Thunder vs. Zapdos: 179-211 (46.7 - 55%) -- 69.6% chance to 2HKO
    I know that this doesn't factor in the accuracy of Thunder, but neither would Scope Lens. When carrying Magnet, having Spikes on the opponents side and also stolen the Leftovers of some pokemon, it gets much harder to switch into Zapdos (which in addition to that might also have Roar).
    Magnet would provide a more constant damage output while Scope Lens only rewards you sometimes.

    Damage from Magnet Zapdos Thunder vs Snorlax (min): 158
    Damage from Zapdos Thuder vs Snorlax (min): 143
    Difference: 15

    Damage from Zapdos Thunder vs. Snorlax on a critical hit (min) : 285
    Damage from Zapdos Thunder vs. Snorlax (min): 143
    Difference: 142


    Damage from Magnet Zapdos Thunder vs Snorlax (max): 186
    Damage from Zapdos Thuder vs Snorlax (max): 169
    Difference: 17

    Damage from Zapdos Thunder vs. Snorlax on a critical hit (max) : 336
    Damage from Zapdos Thunder vs. Snorlax (max): 169
    Difference: 167


    Since Scope Lens would increase the critical hit rate about 1/16 (from 1/16 to 1/8), you can expect to get one additional crit out of 16 hits that you would not have gotten without Scope Lens, right? Therefore we can multiply the damage when holding Magnet minus the damage when not holding Magnet with 16 and compare that with the additional damage one critical hit would have given you:
    min roll: 15*16=240 (>142) max roll: 17*16=272 (>169)
    - Zapdos with Scope Lens does ~100 HP less damage than one with Magnet on average after 16 turns; ~6,25 HP each turn against Snorlax
    (I checked this example also briefly against Raikou and other Zapdos instead of Snorlax with a similiar result)

    That means, if we only consider the pure damage output (without considering possible sp.def boosts/Light Screen), a Zapdos with Magnet will do more damage than one with Scope Lens on average.
    However, Scope Lens could give you game deciding crits while the constantly higher damage output could be negated much more easily by using Rest (Zapdos Thunder vs. Snorlax on a critical hit: 285-336 (54.4 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery ----- Magnet Zapdos Thunder vs. Snorlax: 158-186 (30.2 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery). As you can see, getting two crits in a row would always KO Snorlax while a Lax with Leftovers would restloop Magnet Zapdos if it doesn't get crits and/or para+full paralysis.

    TL;DR I don't think that Scope Lens needs to be mentioned. Magnet seems to have a small niche on the right team though.

    Feel free to correct me if you think that I made some logical or mathematical mistakes.
     
    Sceptross and Enigami like this.
  5. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,385
    Likes Received:
    2,232
    Is Magnet a legal item in gen 2? Thought it was introduced in ADV
     
  6. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,037
    Likes Received:
    563
    Yes, all the basic type boosting items existed in GSC except Silk Scarf, which had equivalents in Polkadot Bow and Pink Bow.
     
  7. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2014
    Messages:
    460
    Likes Received:
    725
    Stats: 90 / 90 / 85 / 125 / 90 / 100
     
    Sceptross likes this.
  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,385
    Likes Received:
    2,232
    easy grammar fix in the intro
    maybe shorten the mention of all of the Pokemon Zapdos checks just down to "Water-types". The grammar of that whole sentence is kind of a mess after the semi-colon tbh. Try this
    With that edit, I'd scrap
    and I'd also remove
    (just put a full stop here).

    ---

    The set should probably be called RestTalk.

    bold = add it in
    feel free to change the adjective used, but you don't need to specify its stats, players can look at the top to see the Pokemon's stats. It's better to just describe them in some way. I probably wouldn't go with fantastic, they look pretty average to me, but maybe they're fantastic in the context of GSC?

    Mention that the pace of GSC games are usually slow enough that the extra damage is a worthwhile trade-off in return for frequent misses, as those misses are less game-changing than not getting the extra damage which Thunder provides.

    Mention its high paralysis chance as a plus-side too.

    maybe also add that Electric is resisted by very few types.

    strikethrough = remove
    You should, in general, when describing coverage moves
    - list the most relevant Pokemon first
    - group Pokemon together by typing
    so for example, I would change this to
    Maybe add something like
    There's more to it than that:
    - mention why it's a good sleep absorber - stuff like its ability to still be threatening whilst asleep, and its ability to switch into most common sleepers (Nidoking Exeggutor?)
    - Mention how it prevents it from being complete set-up bait whilst asleep
    - may be other stuff, but maybe mention why it's more valuable than some other move such as Reflect

    Is that even correct? Surely since Zapdos has greater power and offensive presence it forces more switches? If anything, is it not because Raikou has greater bulk, and can fit the move on its moveset over Rest without struggling to wake up again later in the match?
    Don't just say "Raikou does it better", tell me why.

    The discussion of other Hidden Powers probably belongs in the set details with the edits I suggested, explaining why HP Ice is the preferred coverage move.

    With regards to Drill Peck, you might want to explain why Thunder/Drill Peck/HP Water/Rest is a bad set, if it is.

    In discussing Thunder Wave, talk about common switch-ins to it, and hence explain why it might work well with certain partners. Does it not deserve a set?
    Tell me why the leftovers recovery is crucial. Don't say "it can be gimmicky", the reader should be able to tell that from you explaining the downsides of the item choice. Mention the other upside of punishing Thief.

    Maybe briefly mention steelix/grass-types such as Exeggutor in the end of the OO section - mention how they can wall rare sets or check in some way, or at least act as Electric-type immunities/resists, enabling Snorlax to come in more safely on Hidden Power, which is weaker than Thunder.
     
  9. Sceptross

    Sceptross Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2016
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    691
    Ok, I finally implemented these checks. I'll explain the ones I didn't:

    - Apart from HP Water, which is already mentioned, the other Hidden Powers should not even be considered, so I don't want to even list them in the other options. There's nothing for HP Grass - there is no Swampert in gen 2. The only thing HP Fire would be useful for is Forretress, and that's not even a guaranteed OHKO.

    - "Mention its high paralysis chance as a plus-side too." - This was already in the analysis.

    - "In discussing Thunder Wave, talk about common switch-ins to it, and hence explain why it might work well with certain partners. Does it not deserve a set?" - It's too rare to deserve mention to common switch ins. The rest was already in the analysis too.

    - "With regards to Drill Peck, you might want to explain why Thunder/Drill Peck/HP Water/Rest is a bad set, if it is." - Why though? I've never seen it before and reading the rest of OO definitely explains why it's a bad set.

    - "Maybe briefly mention steelix/grass-types such as Exeggutor in the end of the OO section - mention how they can wall rare sets or check in some way, or at least act as Electric-type immunities/resists, enabling Snorlax to come in more safely on Hidden Power, which is weaker than Thunder." - I semi implemented this, but in the Checks and Counters. You really shouldn't be running other HP than Water or Ice in my opinion, so I added that Eggy is a counter if you use HP Water.
     
  10. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,037
    Likes Received:
    563
    Why is Magnet discussed in the C&C section and not the OO section?
     
    Sceptross and Disaster Area like this.
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,385
    Likes Received:
    2,232
    HP Fire hits both Exeggutor and Steelix super-effectively, as well as forretress. Lix is very common and only hit neutrally by HP Ice.

    I think there is merit in mentioning them and explaining why they are bad: even if they hit certain (if rare) Pokemon for greater damage than HP Ice, because they miss out on x y z common Pokemon, they are not recommended. Put it at the end of OO to explain it.

    well, HP water only misses out on grass-types, which drill peck hits super effectively. To me it seems to be a trade-off, sacrificing sleep talk for the ability to hit steelix super-effectively and do even greater damage to rhydon.
     
  12. Sceptross

    Sceptross Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2016
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    691
    Thanks, fixed!

    I'll add HP Fire. About the second suggestion, you are forgetting GSC is very bulky. Drill Peck doesn't 2HKO Exeggutor. It doesn't 3HKO Blissey (well it does 1% of the time, but come on...). It's not a viable option, specially if you're dropping Sleep Talk because of it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,385
    Likes Received:
    2,232
    Maybe mention the not 3HKOing blissey thing too. Otherwise, seems good enough to me (though I'm inexperienced at GSC)
     
    Sceptross likes this.
  14. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    75
    I FLAT OUT DISAGREE, WHIRLWIND/ROAR SHOULD HAVE ITS OWN SET. ALSO SCREENS ZAP. I REQUEST A REMAKE PlS. ZUPDAS FORCES A MILLION SWITCHES PER GAME. LIGHT SCREEN ZAPDOS IS TRENDY. PLS ADD MORE SETS INSTEAD OF STICKING 8.5 BILLION SETS IN OTHER OPTIONS.
     
    DarkCyborg and Disaster Area like this.
  15. juoean

    juoean Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2017
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    11
    i think that putting anything other than resttalk in oo is fine but dont like a lot of other aspects of the organization of the analysis.

    zapdos is the best sleep absorber in gsc, the only other sleep talk user that is rly frequent is monocurselax but zapdos switches in better to sleep moves (particularly nidoking and exeggutor) monocurselax is run mostly for other reasons. and some secondary threats eg vaporeon may run a mono sleep talk set but they are using sleep talk more offensively (ie to remain threatening while asleep) rather than to defensively or to absorb sleep moves.

    sleep talk is rly sturdy in gsc due to everything being bulky and that sleep talk can successfully select rest in this generation. i think this really needs to be said somewhere, and tbh its how i think zapdos’s whole analysis should be organized. not just for ppl used to later gens but bc sleep talk is central to how zapdos plays.

    zapdos distinguishes itself including from raikou as really the only pokemon that still covers all the threats it needs to with only thunder/bolt and hp ice/water. raikou “can” run sleep talk but it cannot function against ground types while it is asleep at all, which means it cant absorb sleep from nidoking (even if it guesses correctly) and its easily forced out while asleep. that is the correct reason for describing why resttalk is the standard zapdos set but only a rare option for raikou. your analysis instead implies that zapdos cannot usefully run any other moves which is not true at all, eg as the last post says zapdos has higher special attack and can offensive spikes shuffle at least as well as raikou lol, and rare bulky poke with access to either/both screens it doesnt rly need them itself but if the team does.

    i think hp water should be slashed in the main set, exeggutor isnt “that” common (the “solid option for other zapdos” i rly dont think is that important since thunder is better anyway for when opposing zapdos is awake and if its resting u can usually switch out easily except rly late game and u have no other switchins but... thats rly specific lol. losing the ditto is really not a big deal anyway? since any zapdos team will have good zapdos switchins since zapdos does not switch into thunder well, at all) and hp water helps with rhydon which otherwise can be a problem esp while zapdos is asleep, gives steelix fewer chances to explode, and also makes a real difference vs tyranitar bc it means zapdos is not always forced out by it even while asleep (depending on ttars health). i dont think any other hp should be mentioned in the main set, having an okay matchup vs offensive ground types is too important for resttalk zapdos and what sets it apart from any other electric, if ur running hp fire u are more likely to want reflect / a non sleep talking set. hp grass solely hits quagsire which is even less threatening that steelix and if u want to hit piloswine use hp water.
    i think tbolt could be slashed over thunder but i dont think thats necessary.

    the discussion of rock and ice weaknesses is partly vague partly wrong. it has nothing to do with “zapdos only has two weaknesses” raikou only has one weakness lol but it doesnt sleep talk as well bc of ground types. ice attacks are almost never stab in gsc (since cloyster often has no room for it) and the most common ice moves are hidden power on electrics, which hit zapdos just as hard with thunder/bolt anyway. several pokemon have stab rock slide but rock slide isnt a good stab in gsc since all the physicals are too slow to get flinches except against lax or a phazing move, anyway not against resttalk zapdos (since zapdos will rest immediately any time it takes paralysis). the strongest attacks against zapdos are stab rock slides from ttar and rhydon and nonstab rock move from marowak, and even in these matchups zapdos doesnt do that badly and esp not if running hp water. the statement that raikou sets up reflect better bc of common rock and ice attacks is... absurd... earthquake is extremely common in gsc since theres no levitate, both as a stab and as a coverage move for normals, and eqs will hit raikou much harder than rock slides will hit zapdos. zapdos has a much easier time setting up reflect, but it almost never runs it bc its such a good resttalk user, whereas raikou rly needs reflect since eqs are everywhere. ttar is the only physical that raikou does better against than zapdos. zapdos’s concern is vs raikou which is why its more likely to use light screen than reflect.

    thats the biggest issues for me~ a few other little things
    -maybe specify that thunder’s paralysis chance targets electrics (raikou), raikou is often the main switchin to zapdos otherwise but it hates paralysis. and eg running tbolt on resttalk zapdos gives basically a free turn / free switchins to the rare baton pass jolteon (once tbolt is revealed) tho idt jolteon needs to be mentioned in the analysis but the point is for zapdos to have something to threaten pure electric switchins.
    -“This means Zapdos can act as a good switch-in against Pokemon like Heracross and Machamp without Rock Slide, something Raikou cannot” heracross doesnt learn rock slide in gsc, it can only run hp rock. the machamp mentions are strange at best since machamp always runs rock slide unless its mono attacking (curse sleeptalk), and curse machamp doesnt usually have room for earthquake it would rather have a way to hit psychics, and there is no machamp set that would run eq but not rock slide. eq is only common on a four attacks machamp.
    -agree with deleting the sentence that raikou is a better offensive phazer, i think zapdos is a better offensive phazer since its thunder is stronger and it can also run an extra attack if it wants since it doesnt need reflect, the point again is that if u are using zapdos om your team u probably want it as a sleep absorber.
     
    Disaster Area likes this.
  16. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    75
    Dude the fact that you pidgeon-hole zapdos into one set is actually pathetic. Raikou is also a good sleep talker, and fits better on a lot of teams with an electric weakness. If you’ve ever played the game you’d realize that there are other sets that zapdos could use, and some of them could be better for he team than sleep talk. Anyone with a reasonable amount of gsc experience would understand this, and its blatantly obvious you dont have too much experience. Dude zap is probably the best para-spreader in the game with twave.
     
  17. juoean

    juoean Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2017
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    11
    (idk if that^ is at me or “sceptross” but) neither of us claimed its the ~only good set. obv one of the top 3 pokes in gsc has more than one set lol. “and” i think its also true (its not rly clear to me if u disagree) that sleeptalk is by far more common than any other zapdos set / “what u can expect to see” (and not just in terms of usage stats or w e, ofc that does mean its always the best, but its more generally splashable on a team, as opposed to twave screen(s) or phazer which is more tailored for specific teams that need those attributes.) for raikou to me sleeptalk and reflect/roar are similarly common/general which is the distinction i was making to zapdos.
    honestly i feel like this is more a stylistic difference, that i dont mind a lot of things being put in other options. bc i feel like the other sets u can mix and match moves mostly eg one screen and rest, dual screens with or without rest, phazing move prob usually with a screen but also possible without, etc (im not as familiar with twave zap so idk if that needs to be a dedicated/complete specific set) and for the most part someone who is considering a set other than resttalk will be familiar enough that listing the other useful move options is sufficient rather than writing them out as full sets. i wouldnt be opposed to adding other separate full sets, i feel okay with it either way.

    i didnt want to focus on that in my comment since i think there are more serious issues like the claim that raikou sets up reflect more easily bc of the “prevalence of rock and ice attacks” (LOL at suggesting rock slide is either more common or more threatening in gsc than eq) and overall that i think the beginning of the analysis (or the beginning of the sleeptalk set analysis, if other full sets are/were added) needs to state directly how effective sleeptalk is in gsc due to bulk and mechanics, and some other specifics i mentioned.

    also u dont have to write that condescendingly u can still express confidence in what u think is correct without doing that. esp when ur claims (“pigeonhole”) are based on things no one ever said or implied. combined with using “Dude” u sound rly patriarchal like ~bro culture (dude isnt always gendered but in the context of ur writing it makes it sound that way, idk if that was intented)
     
  18. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    75
    you analyze a 14 year old’s writing about a competitive children’s game.
    Problem is, there are a lot of new gscers who will read this article. They are interested in only the highest level of play, and end up seeing zapdos as a 1 set mon. Actually, because I actually play the game, i can tell you firsthand that Rock slide is better than earthquake on machamp, specifically for zapdos. Nidoking and Tyranitar run Ice beam and Rock slide SPECIFICALLY for Zapdos. I know that beginners usually skim through OO and really only look at the sets, because i was one. I wrote the Missy article because the smogon analysis for it made it look like a pathetic pokemon and I wanted to help the newcomer playerbase by writing it. Ive seen so many teams with resttalk zap thrown on that could really use LS zap. ST is definitely slightly overrated and the main reason ive seen it used is because the team lacks an STer. It’s a good STer, but other sets NEED to be publicized
     
  19. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    355
    TBH I'm very confused by people who don't run RS on Machamp.
    You have zero ground to stand on criticising others' etiquette. If you want to raise the level of discussion, try using proper English and thereby showing your own respect for the people you converse with.
     
  20. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    75
    People who dont run RS on machamp are the same ones that use Thunder/Fire Blast/Blizzard/Rest snorlax. Unless they are doing resttalk champ with curse or fb, which in that case is understandable, but you still 90% of the time want rock slide.
     
  21. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    355
    Yeah, I probably should have specified that mono-Champ didn't count. The ones that use coverage but choose to get walled by Zapdos, though, really leave me scratching my head.
     
  22. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    75
    ST/Rest/FB/CC is a set, and a pretty good one, but it needs boom support from cloy to even touch zap. Still, Rs is almost mandatory on champ because of zapper.
     
  23. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    355
    Tbolt has a chance to OHKO. Also, "100% of the time" is rather misleading since 30% of the time Thunder will, in fact, miss.
     
  24. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    75
    Thunderbolt vs thunder comes down to a few simple factors. misses, pp, para chance, and damage. thunder threatens lax more. thunder paras stuff. Thunderbolt has more pp. thunderbolt hits 100% of the time. The thing is, the two moves on zapdos are drastically different. Tbolt, for instance, gives it a better mu vs Vap, but Thunder helps more vs snorlax. Depends largely on team. Accuracy is also a big thing though.
     
  25. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    355
    Wait, I just noticed Tbolt didn't even get a slash. It should.

    Also:
    Tbolt hits harder than HP Ice vs. other Zapdos. Thunder does slightly less on average, but not by a lot.
     
  26. juoean

    juoean Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2017
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    11
    i literally brought both of those points up @ 1 machamp should never be running earthquake but not rock slide and 2 that opposing zapdos is not rly one of the reasons to run hp ice over water
    is “lojh” rly going to pretend/claim i wrote the exact opposite? and m9m align with erasing what i wrote bc you dont like that i write in all lowercase so what “it doesnt count” or “wasnt clear” when i couldnt have been more direct about both those points

    misgendering isnt superficial “etiquette” (dont rly like that word but j using since you used it) or stylistic. idc what ~writing style~ someone uses, i care about patriarchal violence. idw to keep talking about that tho, lojh is free to revise or comment on that if they want to otherwise im done responding about that.

    idk a lot / have a lot of experience with tbolt so i defer to yall about adding tbolt slashed w thunder on resttalk set.
     
  27. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    355
    I read the OP and skimmed the thread, as I am wont to do in these kinds of threads. I tend to skim over your posts in particular because I find reading them a chore. The bit I responded to just kinda jumped out at me.

    Yes, you did make the same points I did. In all honesty, I hadn't noticed that. No grand conspiracy here.
     
  28. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    75
    1. Why am i in quotes? Are you assuming I am an alt of someone?
    2. What you’ve said is nigh unreadable, took me a while to comprehend what you are trying to say.
    3. “Dude” and “bro” shouldnt offend you. If they do, stay off the internet
    4. Zapdos needs light screen up there, phazer as a set, and a few others
    5. I didnt notice most of the points you made because reading them is hard
    6. Hp ice may not be run for zapdos, but it helps in the ditto
    7. By the points you have made, you still have not refuted the actual point of what we are trying to do here, which is give zapdos more than one set.
     
  29. autumn leaves

    autumn leaves Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Messages:
    220
    Likes Received:
    296
    holy fucking shit
     
    Lojh likes this.
  30. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    355
    Also, it really, really rubs me the wrong way when we have literal lies in our sets. Pressure and Gen3+ IVs do not exist in GSC and including lies to make things easier for super-lazy copypasters is disgusting.
     
  31. Sceptross

    Sceptross Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2016
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    691
    Fixed, it shouldn't be like that
     
    Disaster Area likes this.
  32. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    355
    Hooray!
     

Share This Page