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RBY 1U (Universal) Zapdos [Done]

Discussion in 'Individual Analyses' started by Ortheore, Sep 4, 2015.

  1. Ortheore

    Ortheore Senior Moderator

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    Zapdos [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Type: Electric / Flying
    Stats: 90 | 90 | 85 | 125 | 100

    Introduction

    Throughout the history of Pokemon, Zapdos stands head and shoulders (wings?) above fellow members of the legendary bird trio, and RBY is no exception. It carves a niche as a formidable lategame threat, as its stats give it exceptional offensive capabilities, good Speed, and overall excellent bulk. Its movepool enables it to throw out mighty STAB Thunderbolts, complemented by STAB Drill Peck, and also enables it to spread paralysis as well. Unfortunately, Zapdos does have some downsides—it is fully countered by Golem and Rhydon, its Flying typing does it few favours defensively, and it is outsped by various late-game threats, most notably Tauros. Nonetheless, Zapdos is a formidable threat in 1U, one that every team must be prepared to face.

    Sets

    Sweeper

    Zapdos
    - Thunderbolt
    - Drill Peck
    - Thunder Wave
    - Agility

    Set Details

    This set functions as a formidable late-game sweeper that can also break walls if need be. Thunderbolt is the primary STAB move, dealing significant damage to many threats in 1U. Drill Peck allows Zapdos to potentially 2HKO Exeggutor and 3HKO Chansey, as well as guaranteeing a 3HKO on Alakazam. All of those Pokemon are capable of taking a Thunderbolt and would otherwise comfortably check Zapdos. Thunder Wave is a highly valuable move, supporting virtually everything on your team and allowing Zapdos to outspeed Tauros and potentially break through Chansey and Alakazam. Agility is invaluable for shrugging off the speed drop from paralysis, and also triggering the speed drop glitch against paralysed opponents, although players should be mindful of the risk of the paralysis drop being reapplied to their own Zapdos, such as via a Special drop from Psychic.

    Other Options

    Thunder is perhaps Zapdos' most notable other option, being necessary to secure a number of KOs (such as the OHKO on Starmie), but its accuracy can be frustrating. Zapdos has access to both Reflect and Light Screen, but it usually prefers to attack. Similarly, Rest is potentially usable, but Zapdos has a tough time waking. Mimic can be used for a small chance of gaining Recover or Softboiled from a sleeping or frozen pokemon, as Zapdos often forces opponents to sacrifice such pokemon, but it is notoriously unreliable and a wasted moveslot outside of that specific scenario.

    Checks and Counters

    Golem and Rhydon are easily the best responses to Zapdos, as it is incapable of harming them while they pose a significant threat with powerful physical attacks. Jolteon also resists all of Zapdos’s attacks, though it fears paralysis from Thunder Wave. Chansey takes Thunderbolt easily and can paralyse Zapdos and wear it down with Ice Beam; however, between paralysis and Zapdos’s critical hit rate, there’s a good chance it will be KOed. Alakazam is in a similar position, but it can’t take Thunderbolt nearly as well. Snorlax usually isn’t 3HKOed by Thunderbolt and can respond with powerful attacks. Unless you’re running a hard counter to Zapdos, your plan should be to paralyse it with a special wall and then KO it as fast as possible—few Pokemon can wall Zapdos consistently, but paralysing it is very achievable, and it becomes much more manageable in that situation.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Global Moderator

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    Change no to few - ground immunity is great on an electric type, and with gengar as a partner can even be (cheesily) abused for a free switch.

    The set name is odd (I sorta got spark plug but not this?) but I tend to prefer a basic explanation as the set name rather than a thematic one (unless I can make a really terrible pun :3).

    Honestly I'd be tempted to move away from main analysis format entirely with this as its 4th is so subjective and I am always behind metagame trends on it. Light Screen / Agility / Thunder was what I thought was legit.. and then everyone's running Mimic? And you've listed Reflect?? Lol.
    There is no good way to order it as it's so subjective and there's no real right answer, I'd prefer to put something saying Filler, and then go with a whole section going move-by-move for the filler.

    note that drill peck does incredible damage to chansey on a critical hit, which is gotten frequently enough to often allow zapdos to break chansey before it goes down - when you're not facing a team without a rock zapdos can often be played to break open a chansey if somehow your other methods have failed (or you can play it early and save say lax for lategame, but that does depend on matchup).

    Go more in on the filler (include each screen separate, agility, and thunder) and then OO discuss the shittier stuff (rest as a 4th, rest+reflect which doesn't beat rocks whatever m dragon says, reflect+light screen+tbolt+drill peck to gain both screen's benefit - Raish suggested he would be interested in the set some time ago). Toxic is arguably good enough to go as a mention in the filler slot too for the sake of getting status on rocks.
     
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  3. Enigami

    Enigami Member

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    A few other notable KOs for Thunder I could find:
    Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Cloyster: 267-314 (88.1 - 103.6%) -- 23.1% chance to OHKO
    Zapdos Thunder vs. Cloyster: 336-396 (110.8 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    (70% chance)

    Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Tauros: 151-178 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- 0.8% chance to 2HKO
    Zapdos Thunder vs. Tauros: 191-225 (54.1 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (49% chance)
    Zapdos Thunder vs. Tauros on a critical hit: 372-438 (105.3 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO (13.5% chance)

    Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Jynx: 125-147 (37.5 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    Zapdos Drill Peck vs. Jynx: 142-168 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 0.9% chance to 2HKO
    Zapdos Thunder vs. Jynx: 156-184 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 72.2% chance to 2HKO
    (35.3% chance)
    Zapdos Thunder vs. Jynx on a critical hit: 304-358 (91.2 - 107.5%) -- 46.2% chance to OHKO (6.3% chance)

    Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Snorlax on a critical hit: 304-358 (58.1 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Zapdos Thunder vs. Snorlax: 197-232 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    (combined damage - 95.7% - 112.7%, 62.4% damage or higher crit Thunderbolt + Thunder: 100% - 112.7%)


    Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Snorlax: 156-184 (29.8 - 35.1%) -- 18.6% chance to 3HKO
    Zapdos Thunder vs. Snorlax: 197-232 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    (34% chance)

    Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Zapdos: 102-121 (26.6 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    Zapdos Thunder vs. Zapdos: 130-153 (33.9 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    (34% chance)

    Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Poliwrath: 302-356 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Zapdos Thunder vs. Poliwrath: 382-450 (99.7 - 117.4%) -- 97.4% chance to OHKO
    (70% chance)

    The guaranteed OHKO on Cloyster and the chance of 2HKO (and OHKOs with a critical hit) on Tauros and Jynx might be worth mentioning. Thunder might actually be a very viable attack vs. Tauros, with a roughly 1/7 chance of OHKO, 50/50 chance of 2HKO, and a near 4/5 chance of 3HKOing Tauros, giving it a good chance of outperforming or atleast matching Thunderbolt.

    If Thunderbolt lands a critical hit of 62.4% HP or more, Thunder guarantees the 2HKO on Snorlax while Thunderbolt often falls short. If I did the math correctly, after a crit Thunderbolt the second Thunderbolt comes up to a maximum of 69.2% chance to KO, just a bit under the accuracy of Thunder. 2 Thunderbolts + Thunder can also much more reliably 3HKOs than 3 Thunderbolts.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2015
  4. Ortheore

    Ortheore Senior Moderator

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    @Disaster Area I edited to reflect your comments. I didn't mention Drill Peck crits since I mention multiple times that Zap can break through the blob and at one point I do connect this to Zap's crit rate, so it didn't seem necessary. I haven't gone into great detail on the filler options because I honestly didn't think of any elaboration to be made, even if it could probably use some elabroation. Idk, nothing came to me. Also I didn't mention Mimic because that move is terrible.

    Also nice work Enigami, that's a really handy post
     
  5. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Mimc can steal games (Softboiled cough cough), and it's something that can work specifically against frozen or sleeping opponents. It's not the move to beat Golem/Rhydon (unless it steals a special SE move): again, there's no combination of Zapdos' moves to beat them.

    I think we can say once and for all Agility is the best move overall. Reflect against Snorlax or predicting booms enhances chances to win games; same goes for Thunder fishing for critical hits or surprise extra damage to 2HKO Snorlax before it booms.

    I don't see Light Screen doing the same: it lets Zapdos beat Jolteon at times (but that's basically a double KO unless your team is still threatened by paralyzed Jolteon), it helps vs Chansey and vs even more vs Alakazam (but Zapdos doesn't like being TWaved with Snorlax coming in then- at least Zapdos can use Thunderbolt vs Alakazam).
    All in all, I never liked the move as it doesn't fit Zapdos' job (sweeping) unless there are very few pokemon around, and opponent's Chansey has to stay in.

    Reflect+Light Screen is a funny: unparalyzed Chansey laughs at that set (Zam too), but at the same time, it could become really tough to take down without abusing recovery moves.
     
  6. Ortheore

    Ortheore Senior Moderator

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    Literally anything becomes better by mimicking softboiled tho, so I think it's a redundant point. I think Mimic is terrible because in all likelihood it is a waste of a turn. The probability of gaining something useful from it is exactly 25% if you know the opponent is going to have Chansey or Zam in. In the likely event it picks something not useful like Thunder Wave, you've just spent a turn doing nothing when you could've been spamming Drill Peck. When you could run something else and know exactly what you're getting when you use it, why would you gamble on something that is probably going to be a waste of a turn?

    Anyway, some good stuff for the rest, I agree with Agility being the overall best option, and your comments on screens make a lot of sense as well. I'll change the OP up to reflect things
     
  7. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Global Moderator

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    Zapdos might be in play versus a frozen chansey or sleeping alakazam more often than a lot of mons, due to it being primarily a late-game sweeper which is in part checked by lots of offensive teams by their ability to revenge kill it, I mean, I think you appreciate how zapdos plays out in practice reasonably often enough. And the 25% chance to virtually instawin a certain portion of games is not bad when compared to the marginal utility of all its other options.
     
  8. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Hyper Beam is an option as fourth move. It's significantly stronger than Drill Peck, guaranteeing the 3HKO on Chansey (and indeed the 2HKO with a crit Drill Peck), having about a 40% chance to 2HKO Zam, and usually getting the 2HKO on Jynx. Also, Jolteon doesn't resist it.

    As regards Thunder, it's better to think in terms of Thunderbolt + Thunder vs. Thunderbolt alone than straight-up Thunder vs. Thunderbolt. To quote myself on RBY2K10 (these are vs. Tauros after accuracy and crits):

    Thunderbolt 2HKO - 35.48%
    Thunder 2HKO-or-better - 56.62% (13.58% OHKO)
    Thunder + Thunderbolt 2HKO-or-better - 70.41% (13.58% OHKO)
    Thunderbolt + Thunder 2HKO - 72.13%

    Also Thunder's kinda crap vs. Slowbro; it's slightly bulkier than Starmie which makes Thunder much less likely to OHKO, and misses are very bad because of Amnesia.


    Regarding Mimic, it's certainly true that everything gets better by mimicking Recover/Softboiled, which is why it's a decent filler move on anything that doesn't have four good moves. It is substantially better on Pokemon that are countered by Starmie, though, because Starmie usually carries at least two and sometimes three moves that put it in deep shit if mimicked (Recover, plus Thunderbolt/Thunder Wave/both). Thus, it's not nearly as good on Zapdos as on Jynx/Articuno(/Cloyster, sort of), since Starmie is highly unlikely to switch into Zapdos and Zapdos already has two of those moves. Zapdos does see a fair amount of Chansey, and getting Ice Beam would be nice, but it doesn't help against Chansey itself and as such you're not likely, after wasting a turn and moveslot on Mimic to get it, to actually get to the "laugh maniacally" bit. You can gamble with it against Slowbro to try to get Amnesia, since Slowbro often stays in if it's got an Amnesia or two up, but you're taking an awful risk.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
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  9. Ortheore

    Ortheore Senior Moderator

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    Ya I'll add HBeam to the bad but usable section.

    Otherwise that's a great post, but I might not include the rest in the OP simply to keep it concise
     
  10. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    I tried out Hyper Beam after I saw your post. Turns out it's actually good. Worked out really well for me.

    I like to run Zapdos in offensive teams. In this case I played it in a Dual Electric team with a jolt lead. Hyper Beam really helps to clean out the damaged and paralysed mons endgame, makes it easier to finish off a wounded chansey with like 70% health, as you don't have to fish for that crit with Drill Peck. Also really good against zam for the same reasons. I mean I'm just kinda approving mushroom's great post by sharing my experience with HB.

    Still I think I need to point out that when I had Agility on my Zapdos I very rarely used it. Maybe it's because I don't read game situations well enough, but I wouldn't think Agility is far better than any other moves, for the simple reason that you mention "filler". Kinda means there isn't any clear best 4th move for the bird's last slot. I like to think a move you rarely use on a mon means it's simply not that good (few exceptions of course as always).

    I would highly recommend Zap's players try it, even if you consider it a gimmick at first, late games situations might tell you it's more than that if you spread good paralysis. Or simply for a fun/creative/surprising purpose. It's not like agility is god on zapdos anyway IMO.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2015
  11. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    The idea with Reflect+Rest is that you literally just sit there and stall the Rocks out of Rock Slide while hoping really hard that they don't crit.

    Of course, Rocks being incredibly slow and Rock Slide having 229 accuracy and 16 PP, this isn't outside the realm of possibility. It's a 31.4% chance to stall Rhydon out, and a 27.8% chance for Golem. But still well under 50%.

    Toxic + Reflect is probably better if you're dead-set on defeating Rocks, since the chance to win is similar and even if the Rocks win they'll have taken crippling damage instead of nothing. And if they switch out when they see your set, they're still poisoned instead of, again, being unharmed.

    But obviously neither of these are really worth giving up Thunder Wave. Zapdos should either be played around the Rocks (and it's not as if luring Rocks is a bad thing), or it should just run Toxic as its filler and leave it at that.
     
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  12. Ortheore

    Ortheore Senior Moderator

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    Yeah, seeing Peasounay talking about it makes me realise that I just don't like using most non-attacking moves on things like Zap and Articuno, stuff that is intended to be sweeping lategame. It's just not a good use of a turn when you could be laying on some damage instead.

    I've been running Cuno a lot lately and although I run agility, I've literally never used it. It was a similar deal with Zap when I was running that a lot.

    edit: also slightly edited the thing about ref+rest
     
  13. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Agility on Zapdos helps a bit vs. Alakazam, and Agility on Articuno helps a bit vs. Chansey/Alakazam/Starmie, because going first is a benefit of its own against a Recover user. Agility on Moltres and Dragonite is obviously 100% worthy of a slot due to the "X can't move!" mechanic.

    But outside of those cases I can't say I ever really saw the big draw either. You need there to be two Pokemon on the opposing team faster than your Agility user for there to even be a chance of gaining turns from it, and that's not really guaranteed in RBY 1U. Standard team is lead/Tauros/Snorlax/Egg/Chansey/mystery; usually either the lead or the mystery-mon is Starmie/Alakazam, but if they're leading they're quite likely asleep by the time you're thinking about setting up anything. So Tauros is faster, and Starmie or Alakazam are faster, but by the time your Agility user can actually muscle past its counters and even think about setting up it's entirely possible one of them is dead/asleep and thus Agility is worthless. There's the paralysis speed-drop negation, I suppose, but that only really adds to Agility's appeal if your opponent's slow Pokemon are unparalysed while your intended sweeper is paralysed - a situation most people try very hard to avoid. And there's still the issue that there aren't too many straight sweepers in RBY - things that can actually get multiple KOs without having to switch out in-between - and the main candidates (besides the aforementioned Wrap users) are Slowbro and Tauros, which don't get Agility.

    If Rhydon got Agility, it'd absolutely be a set-in-stone fourth move, since it would leapfrog Chansey, Exeggutor, Tauros, Starmie and Alakazam in Speed at +2. But it doesn't, and nothing else in that sweet-spot Speed range does either except the garbage-tier Porygon and Dratini. Thus, Agility is only great in 1U on Dragonite and Moltres and mostly an anti-Recover gimmick on other stuff.

    (In other tiers, Agility can be worthwhile, depending on the makeup of the tier. I think Agility Articuno in 2P is pretty good?)
     
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  14. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Still kinda misses the point. Zapdos can do something in retaliation; specifically, once they're out of Rock Slide, you can 10-12HKO with Drill Peck (it's got 32 PP). Rhydon's Body Slam is only a 9HKO vs. Reflect Zapdos.

    The problem is that against Rhydon you've only a 31% chance of actually pulling it off and against Golem a 28% chance, plus the incredible passivity of the strategy (Chansey and even Starmie threaten to switch in on your Rest and KO with Ice attacks).

    EDIT: With Rhydon, actually, it's less likely than that. Rock Slide + Rock Slide + Body Slam + Rock Slide usually gets the 4HKO, so unless you've been pre-paralysed they can fish for a paraslam and KO that way. Golem doesn't get that 4HKO, though; it needs all Rock Slides.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2016
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  15. Sobi

    Sobi hi Member

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    GP 1/1

    Zapdos [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Type: Electric/Flying
    Stats: 90 | 90 | 85 | 125 | 100

    Throughout the history of Pokemon, Zapdos stands head and shoulders (wings?) above fellow members of the legendary bird trio, and RBY is no exception. It carves a niche as a formidable lategame threat, as its stats give it exceptional offensive capabilities, good Speed, and overall excellent bulk. Its movepool enables it to throw out mighty STAB Thunderbolts, complemented by STAB Drill Peck, and also enables it to spread paralysis as well. Unfortunately, Zapdos does have some downsides—it is fully countered by Golem and Rhydon, its Flying typing does it few favours defensively, and it is outsped by various late-game threats, most notably Tauros. Nonetheless, Zapdos is a formidable threat in OU, one that every team must be prepared to face.

    Sweeper

    Zapdos
    - Thunderbolt
    - Drill Peck
    - Thunder Wave
    - Filler

    This set functions as a formidable late-game sweeper that can also break walls if need be. Thunderbolt is the primary STAB move, dealing significant damage to many threats in OU. Drill Peck allows Zapdos to potentially 2HKO Exeggutor and 3HKO Chansey, as well as guaranteeing a 3HKO on Alakazam. All of those Pokemon are capable of taking a Thunderbolt and would otherwise comfortably check Zapdos. Thunder Wave is a highly valuable move, supporting virtually everything on your team and allowing Zapdos to outspeed Tauros and potentially break through Chansey and Alakazam.

    Filler

    The last slot on the set isn’t as important. Agility allows Zapdos to shrug off the Speed drop from paralysis, since it will often go toe-to-toe with Pokemon like Chansey. Thunder's accuracy is poor but there are a number of KOs it achieves that Thunderbolt does not, such as potentially OHKOing Starmie and Slowbro. Reflect is another useful option for allowing Zapdos to tank attacks from Snorlax and Tauros better, which is very significant late-game. Light Screen is the final option in this slot, allowing Zapdos a better chance at breaking through Chansey and Alakazam, but it offers little utility otherwise.

    Bad but not totally unusable options for filler slot

    Rest is another option, as Zapdos has plenty of bulk; however ,it struggles to wake up, as Ice-type and physical attacks tend to overwhelm it. Hyper Beam is a potentially usable option, as it outdamages Drill Peck versus Alakazam and Chansey, as well as not being resisted by Jolteon. Reflect + Rest is an intriguing option that attempts to turn the tables against Golem and Rhydon by stalling them out, but Zapdos can’t really do anything in retaliation, and they still 4HKO after Reflect, while forgoing Thunder Wave is a huge sacrifice to make. Similarly, Reflect + Light Screen is possible, but not worth dropping Thunder Wave for. Toxic can status Golem and Rhydon, which otherwise are unlikely to receive status, though its damage output is abysmal. Mimic can be used against sleeping or frozen Pokemon, particularly Chansey and Alakazam, to potentially get a useful move, but bear in mind that it is usually a waste of a turn against an active Pokemon.

    Checks and Counters

    Golem and Rhydon are easily the best responses to Zapdos, as it is incapable of harming them while they pose a significant threat with powerful physical attacks. Jolteon also resists all of Zapdos’s attacks, though it fears paralysis from Thunder Wave. Chansey takes Thunderbolt easily and can paralyse Zapdos and wear it down with Ice Beam; however, between paralysis and Zapdos’s critical hit rate, there’s a good chance it will be KOed. Alakazam is in a similar position, but it can’t take Thunderbolt nearly as well. Snorlax usually isn’t 3HKOed by Thunderbolt and can respond with powerful attacks. Unless you’re running a hard counter to Zapdos, your plan should be to paralyse it with a special wall and then KO it as fast as possible—few Pokemon can wall Zapdos consistently, but paralysing it is very achievable, and it becomes much more manageable in that situation.
     
  16. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    god was i wrong, this was my first non tournament related post on this forum bc i was afraid of saying bs, so cute

    Making that post in the articuno analysis made me remember this analysis has "filler" instead of "agility" and I believe agility should be the 4th move written, with all the rest going into OO.

    Agility is the superior move because it makes Zapdos the only sweeper who isn't stopped by paralysis, and it gives it the ability to play around speed drops (mostly against zam in the late game and that happens a fair amount of the time, idk the numbers but after an agility idt zam has the advantage if it has to take a turn to twave the dos), it improves so many match-ups and allows you to get so much value with dos even after getting paralysed. A simple example is the situation where you go zapdos against starmie/chansey and end up paralysed but get that agility off and then get the twave on the tauros who now can't revenge kill you happens a lot in close games. Or your opponent sacks his sleeping/frozen mon to zapdos, you have a free agility and now you have the advantage against tauros. In two years of playing agility got me more value than any other move could've. I'm not disputing the merits of smth like Thunder (it's probably the only other move i would consider running if you forced me not to run agility) but I think the opportunity cost of not running agility is too big.
     
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  17. sceptross

    sceptross Member

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    This reminded me of something funny. It was after reading that post of yours that I decided to try Hyper Beam on Zapdos, when I was starting and still had Mimic in my Zapdoses because Smogon analysis lul.

    On a battle against you on the ladder where I beat a Chansey you had at 40% (or something like that) with Hyper Beam you then said that Hyper Beam was trash and Agility was much superior because, you know, you have better things to do with your 4th slot than beating 40% Chanseys. I didn't notice it was you who posted it here back then, otherwise I'd have said it to you, but it's that kinda ironic that it was you calling trash to, well, your own suggestion xD

    Off-topics aside, I obviously second that Agility is the standard option for the fourth moveslot. It's just way too good compared to the other options. One click of a button and:
    • Paralysis speed drop is completely nullified and your speed doubles. That's pretty much the fastest Pokemon in the game unless ditto matchup.
    • Starmie can no longer revenge kill you unless at least at almost full health.
    • Tauros can no longer switch in unless it wants to eat a Thunder Wave or even die if it was, for instance, hit by two Body Slams in a Tauros ditto before.
    • Alakazam is no longer a safeish check. One FP or a Drill Peck crit before Zapdos is in Psychic range and good luck surviving the matchup.
    • Pokémon that could revenge kill you if you were paralyzed, like Lapras or Cloyster, can no longer come in (unless they are at very high health, in Lapras' case, and even then... 19.5% chance to crit is still scary).
    Well, to be honest, these arguments were just for completeness' sake, because I believe no player that has decent knowledge of RBY will argue against Agility being superior to the rest.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
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  18. Ortheore

    Ortheore Senior Moderator

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    Implemented changes, including condensing everything down to one OO section
     
  19. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Global Moderator

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    Toxic is about as bad as Mimic and it should be mentioned at the end of OO to explain explicitly why it is bad. Also mention nabbing Earthquake with Mimic against rocks (not that it does that much good anyway).
     
  20. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Host Emeritus

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    I'm not gonna argue much here (I prefer Mimic but I recognize that's weird), but I do want to point out that Agility is not as good *as it used to be* before 2015 because while it can nullify the paralysis speed drop, the paralysis speed drop can now get reapplied and worsened which it couldn't before. An Alakazam's Psychic can essentially make your Agility a completely wasted turn, too. So you used Agility, you got fast, but Alakazam used Psychic and dropped your special. You're slower again, and you're more vulnerable to major special damage. Even if you Drill Peck the Zam to death, Tauros Blizzard after one Special drop does as much damage as Hyper Beam, without the recharge turn, and you're slow again.

    Yeah the odds aren't bad that Mimic is a wasted turn - let's just say 25-75%, depending on what you're trying to snag and from whom - but the odds that Psychic drops your Speed/Special - 30% - is not an insignificant chance that you've wasted your turn.

    Heck, sometimes I'll stay in as an Exeggutor and Psychic a paralyzed Zapdos, because if it uses Agility while it predicts I'll switch (instead of Drill Pecking me), and I drop its Special, I will beat that Zapdos without booming and with a reasonable amount of health left, or at the very least I'll be able to revenge kill it easy because again, Psychic dropped its speed and did serious damage in the meantime. That's crazy.

    So is Agility the best standard fourth move? Sure, why not. But tons of people have pointed out that Agility can make you faster after paralysis but no one has mentioned that you can lose that just as quickly. Tons of people have mentioned anything else is a wasted turn but no one has mentioned Agility could turn out to be, too. Worth having on the record I think.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  21. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    Funny that you mention that. I seriously do not really know the mechanics here.

    Situation: Zapdos, paralyzed (298/4= 75 [or 74, idk if it is rounded up or down] speed)
    Step1 : Zapdos uses Agility, paralysis drop gets ignored (298*2=596 speed)
    Step2: Opoosing Psychic drops Zapdos special
    My question: What is Zapdos speed now?
    Is it
    a) 596/4=149 (the current speed stat used for the reapplication of the paralysis speed drop) or
    b) 298/4=75 [74?] (the default speed stat used for the reapplication of the paralysis speed drop)?
    EDIT: Or is it even c) 75/4=19 [18?] speed (the Agility boost ignored and reapplication as "normal" [=without any boosts in between]

    This makes a difference against paralyzed Alakazams that are at 338/4=85 [84?] speed, as they outspeed after the drop in case a) and are still slower in case b).

    So which case is it and also important, how is it currently implemented on PS?
     
  22. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Host Emeritus

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    If you are still paralyzed and you use Agility the initial drop is ignored. However if the speed drops again it calculates based on the pre-Agility, paralyzed speed. Zapdos gets slow af and Agility was officially a wasted move. Don't know if the sims are accurate.

    ETA: I could be reading Crystal_'s research wrong (linked here), but that's what it seems like, but someone should probably double-check
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  23. Ortheore

    Ortheore Senior Moderator

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    Implemented Golden Gyarados and DA's notes, though I didn't mention that Zap can get EQ from GolDon via Mimic. GolDon are very rarely fodder material (especially against Zap lol), and Mimic should only ever be used if the opponent's foddering a pokemon incapable of acting. Against GolDon, a turn spent using Mimic is a turn you could've been switching out into something that pressures GolDon. The worst part is that even if you do manage to snag EQ, you're still probably losing that matchup.
     
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  24. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    You use Mimic on the predicted switch-in of Golem or Rhydon. Depending on their left HP and on Zapdos' HP itself, it can actually win with EQ... (rarely ik, but I think it'sMimic's best use on Zapdos)
     
  25. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    FFS, Agility shouldn't be listed unslashed. Agility is generally a bad move in RBY; despite the vaunted paralysis speed drop negation, you're still spending a turn to gain priority, which only gains you something if you Agility against something that outspeeds you, KO it, and then fight something else that would have outsped you - and FPs give you a 0.25-turn tax if you try this while paralysed. Reality check #1: RBY is a bulky meta and Zapdos has counters. Reality check #2: the three best of those counters are slower than Zapdos itself. Reality check #3: RBY is chock-full of paralysis moves. Conclusion: the situations in which Zapdos gains turns on average by using Agility are really fucking rare. Zapdos is not a Wrapper and isn't lacking for alternative moves which improve its matchups with staples of the tier (Thunder for Tauros and Starmie, Hyper Beam for Chansey and Alakazam); the insistence upon Agility as an unslashed move is frankly bizarre and incomprehensible.
     
  26. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Global Moderator

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    In reality agility is useful in practice a lot of the time

    You should battle more
     
  27. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Logs plz.

    Also, yes, I suppose I should. Wish there were still ladders worth a damn. Especially that there were ones without illegal mechanics.
     
  28. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Global Moderator

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    I mean I don't use Zapdos that much but I can vaguely remember games where Agility has worked against me or worked for me but I pretty much can't in the case of any other move, and I don't remember any games where having a different move would have given me a better shot. Maybe someone who uses it more, e.g. Peasounay could give you something more concrete I guess.

    The ladder on PS main is not too bad though I guess it's dried up in recent months. You can always hop on the PP server or Discord and ask for games, or even better, play in tournaments.

    Regarding mechanics, Enigami is working on an accurate wrap implementation but he has a lot to do and it's not at the top of his priorities. Regarding Sleep Clause, if you want to make a legal implementation of it, that would be helpful, there's noone here who's against that afaik and I would prefer it. Regarding removing freeze clause, good luck finding players who want to play without it; we did do that vote on it after all so I would recommend considering it settled, as it got crushed pretty handily and there hasn't been any movement I can see suggesting the issue merits re-opening. Regarding other known bugs, I have a list saved on Discord in a group chat for RBY Development; Enigami had a fix for one of them but it recently broke so he's going to look into it... if you want to help fix bugs, just let me know I guess. I'm not sure which bit of it you're moaning about so I hope I covered all the bases.
     
  29. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    I guess I could and I happily answer people when they ask me questions in pm and stuff but when I see arrogance and unnecessary aggressiveness it makes me not wanna, especially when it's not the first occurrence

    Also I guess I will kill 2 birds (pun) with one stone answering the "the fuck are you talking about" on the articuno thread: i'm talking about my rby and tournament experience which led me to my results (which answers the "logs plz" part) because, you know, I actually play the game
     
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  30. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    I'm cross about Freeze Clause, obviously. It should never have been put to a vote, as it directly and egregiously violates PP policy of adhering to game mechanics. You might as well vote to have Body Slam paralyse Normal-types. The "lol freeze everywhere" scenario everyone's scared of is a load of shit, which they would promptly realise were anyone to actually run a clauseless ladder. But noooooo, all three sites slavishly adhere to a rule worse than HP Legends because they don't have the guts to challenge a senseless tradition.
     
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  31. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Global Moderator

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    We challenged it, it was upheld.

    Where does it say our policy is entirely about adhering to game mechanics and what leniency does said policy actually give to possible exceptions?

    If you're still salty about freeze clause you can always make your own community forum / make your own server for freeze clause-less RBY or heck if you want you can try and get people to play it as a side metagame on here (it's not becoming the official 1U because a very strong majority of the playerbase doesn't want it).
     
  32. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    I've never seen anybody who isn't an arrogant, severely delusional "purist" (lol@there being such a thing in RBY) complain about freeze clause. It's like complaining that sleep clause exists.

    "B-B-BUT MAH CARTRIDGE MECHANICS!"

    Nobody gives a shit about nor wants to play a game where multiple Pokémon can be frozen. And before I have to read posts like, "Oh please, that never happens," I can safely say that I speak on behalf of practically everybody that has invested significant time and energy into competitive that freeze clause is a life saver. How many times have we seen the "freeze clause is active" message on PS? More than enough, I'm sure. Honestly, if it were up to me I would ban freeze altogether since it's a horribly programmed mechanic. Sleep, while broken, doesn't always render a Pokémon useless beyond being a sacrificial lamb, at least.

    Also, nothing is stopping you from organizing your own league where you can play with freeze clause removed. You can host tournaments with the other three people out of 1000 who want games in which you can freeze two, even three Pokémon.

    As for Agility on Zapdos? It's by far Zapdos's best 4th move--I can't believe there's somebody in 2017 who thinks it isn't. Yes, Agility makes a HUGE difference, as being able to negate the speed drop from paralysis and outspeed the likes of Tauros, Alakazam, and Starmie makes Zapdos infinitely more dangerous than it already is. I've had many games that came down to whether or not the faster Zapdos would get fully paralyzed or land the crit. I can even describe exact games in which this has happened (vs Earthworm in g1 of MT22, Conflict in the cult classic semi finals, etc).
     
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  33. Ortheore

    Ortheore Senior Moderator

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    As someone that fits this description, I feel comfortable in saying freeze clause is unnecessary in the current metagame. The chances of a typical team landing multiple freezes are miniscule, thanks to the importance of paralysis and the possibility that any frozen pokemon gets foddered off before freeze clause can be invoked. Even teams that play for the freeze have their own issues as that's such an incredibly passive and unreliable playstyle that it ultimately balances things out. I'd estimate that you see 255 misses at least twice as often as freeze clause being invoked.

    Note that I don't mean to discredit your perspective, only to offer mine- I'd rather not get into a major argument over this because a Zapdos analysis isn't the place for it (I'd rather necro an old thread tbh), but I couldn't resist chiming in
     
  34. sceptross

    sceptross Member

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    Well, why not host a tournament without freeze clause? I'd sign up for that, although I agree with the rest of the crew, who knows, it might not be as bad as we think. It's probably the best way to prove your point.

    In my opinion, paralysis is so important because the two status effects that are better than it are limited to being applied to one Pokemon. Removing freeze clause would decrease paralysis' relevance. I mean, it would still be pretty relevant anyway, but if there's a possibility of almost OHKOing a Pokemon if you don't paralyse it, I bet some people will be much less prone to clicking that Thunder Wave button.

    Okay, end of off-topic, I also couldn't resist chiming in :p I'll try to answer m9m's arguments, since no one else has tried to yet

    RBY is indeed a bulky meta. Zapdos has, indeed, counters. If it didn't, it would be with Mew and Mewtwo watching us from Gods' place. However, Agility, under pretty common game circumstances, cuts that list tremendously. It's not uncommon for Agility to, in the endgame, meaning a win for the Zapdos player (provided Zapdos doesn't FP to death, at least). In fact, I dare say Zapdos might be tied with Tauros for best late game sweeper in the game, because Agility makes it faster than everything and it packs a big, big punch. Just get the rocks out of the way.

    Golem and Rhydon are the reason we don't have a big 5, Zapdos being the 5th one obviously, since Zapdos can do nothing to those. However, if Zapdos is paralyzed and Snorlax is not (a much more common scenario than one might initially think), Agility will most likely allow it to beat Snorlax, or at least trade with it (since Snorlax is usually already worn out when this matchup happens). While remarkable, it's not even the best use of Agility, in my opinion.

    I must say I do not understand this argument. I mean, considering the current mechanics, isn't this an argument in favour of running Agility? You are paralyzed, most of your opponent's stuff is paralyzed, you Agility, you are faster. Supposing you Agilitied vs a faster mon than you, you lost no turns and faster Pokemon might not be able to revenge kill you anymore. That is, in fact, more than anything, the best selling point of Agility for me - the fact that, with the click of a button, in certain not-uncommon-at-all circumstances, your opponent suddenly has no means to revenge kill you reliably. And since, as you mentioned, RBY is a bulky metagame, it's much easier to use and benefit from Agility instead of, for instance, DPP LC where if you are not OHKOing your opponent you are doing something wrong (probably being OHKOd yourself).
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
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  35. Troller

    Troller Member

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    I'm a bit late and a lot of what i wanted to say has been said already, there comes the question why are we threating the freeze clause as the only "cartridge-breaker" while clearly we are not even close to the real games? Timer, hp percentages, full log of the previous turns, sleep clause, pps of the opponent displayed, calculators, Fly an Dig are banned and so on, this is NOT the cartridge and you have to deal with that. All these things in my mind make this game a lot more competitive, because they kind of turns everything into a chess-like battle. But yeah let's move the second point, "the freeze clause never happens", not only it happened a lot of times to me and in some battles i watched over the time, but also is out of the topic: "is the freeze clause a good thing or not", how is the activation rate an argument at all? It happens (not often but it does), then why removing an improvement against the excessive luck if the cartridge is broken already?
     
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  36. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Global Moderator

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    Timer could be done by an external clock, full log could be done by having someone scribe everything down, hp percentages could be changed to hp pixels (which is a change I support but PS's implementation of pixels is horrible so we're not going to do it unless they make it good and even then we would put it up to a vote), sleep cause could and, if someone coded it, would be cart-legal, pp display could be done by pen and paper, fly and dig ban is easy to implement on cart (you just don't bring them)... freeze clause is the only way we break cart mechanics that we also do not have an idea of how to tweak in a way to make cart legal.

    Anyway, this is settled for now and has been for years. If you wish to discuss it further, please make a new thread. I will be deleting any new posts on the topic in this thread from this point on :)
     
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  37. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Well, looks like a Zapdos thread is a fine place to start some relevant discussion on the state of RBY in general. Just move stuff in case.

    Your remarks on Agility are pretty much overlookable, as this game is really far from a 1vs1 game in first place and the pinnacle of the playerbase stands on Agility's side for a reason.

    Anyway, I approve the attack to the policy of strictly adhering to game mechanics: I remember I asked (possibly it was on Smogon) to just leave alone that Body Slam mechanic because I was aware of what was going to happen.
    The italian community discussed the announcement as it came out, and g_f (Green Flash) and me pointed out that Tauros and Snorlax were going to be unmanageable even more than Chansey was going to be. I was a bit scared of Slowbro as well, as soon as ALLALA's para'd Slowbro outsped my para'd Tauros; fortunately that proved to be more manageable though.
    In both cases, the decision wasn't even up for discussion.
    After almost three years, I can guarantee you that "Body Slam tragedy" literally ruined the game to the point I honestly find it boring: incompetent people would argue about Body Slam being RNG dependant - on the other hand, competent players would tell you that it's a way to create different scenarios and, more importantly, to give you access to more strategic decisions.
    I definitely agree on adhering to game mechanics and strict rules in general to be just a way to shy away from responsibilities when you don't have confidence - a deadly sin.

    We should stick to game mechanichs as much as possible, and let elite players decide on uncomfortable matters; at this point I'm sure we should reset Body Slam, and decide on the few other things that changed: specifically, some Counter scenarios and stacking glitch, which I'm not sold on yet.
    Deciding on something you won't be willing to change for a long while demands an investment of time and energy, that's something you just don't do carlessly so we'd better know we'll be willing to test stuff before committing to the process.

    FC should never be up for discussion, I'm not a fan of "go and try it in your house" either to be honest. It's been tested, discussed and voted indeed. Won't be changed because it would be detrimental (no matter how many times), no need to take it personal (I mean, for both sides).
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
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