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Pokémon Who was the best in gen 1?

Discussion in 'Chat' started by Roostur, Aug 18, 2018.

  1. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    In gen 2, everyone knows that a player named Celia was regarded as the best in the game’s most popular era.

    When gen 1 was at the height of its popularity, who was considered the best?
     
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  2. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    What does "popular" mean in this context? The era which saw the greatest abundance of tournaments? The time in which the playerbase was flourishing? The days when RBY and GSC were the only extent gens? Perhaps if you could be more specific, people could give you a concrete answer. Celia might be considered the best when looked at with one particular set of lens, but another would give you an entirely different perspective.

    As for RBY, I prefer breaking it down into several distinct periods and analyzing it that way--the game has transformed considerably since its antiquated and broken beginnings. For the sake of brevity (moreso because I write this message under the exigencies of time), I would say the greatest players of each era would be...

    The Azureheights era (2000-2005): GGFan
    The Renaissance (2006-2010): GGFan
    The Dark Ages (2011-2012): Crystal
    The Revival (2013-2014): GGFan
    The dawn of Pokémon Perfect (2014-2017): marcoasd, Alexander, Peasounay
    RBY Globalization (2018-???): roudolf, Troller
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
  3. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    I like what you did here with the time periods. I don't really like the way that you try to make "the best" sound subjective though. I understand that there could be arguments made about whether which of the top 3 players of any given time period were the best (because their consistency in winning might be a little close to call), but who the tip top players are shouldn't be disputed in a competitive game where we can measure who the best players are by consistency in winning. Consistency in winning is the measurement I'm using, are you using the same measurement in your analysis of these time periods?
     
  4. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    It is subjective because, as I said before, not everybody will judge a player using the same exact criteria. You say you use consistency as your measuring stick, but consistency based on what? How many tournaments did Celia win? What was his winning percentage? How long did he play? How developed was the playerbase back then compared to now? How do his achievements stack up against the achievements of those who succeeded him? You have to factor in all of these questions and more, I believe, if you truly want a solid answer as opposed to a vague one.

    Another question comes into mind here: how educated are you on the history of competitive GSC, really? I don't ask this to insult you or doubt your knowledge; rather, I would appreciate it if you could expound on your reasoning as to why Celia is the greatest GSC player of all time. It would be interesting to learn more, as this is a lofty statement to make, I think. I can only provide detailed historical analysis on the RBY side, sadly.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
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  5. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Yes this is all about rby. I'm only educated about celia through old posts, and older players talking about him. I can say just from seeing his signature team, if i had no other information about him except what his signature build was, just by that team I'd already put him above most players. James g says he was the best there was and i trust him, there are also old posts on game faqs calling him the "stall god" . And Borat has said in the past that "stall lets worst players win" and "celia isn't that good" "if i had a time machine, i'd go back to gsc's prime and be the best" and if i put two and two together it seems to me that borat was also one of his victims, and borat wasn't happy about it. I also watched him play james g with a solo ice team and that was extremely impressive to say the least (and james g won a master tournament not too far back, to answer your question about how'd he stack up against the competition today). And this is coming from a spectator who was one of the best gsc players for a while. All of these little pieces of evidence, along with all the information james g has told me, points to the conclusion that he really was the best of that era. Best as in he destroyed everyone.

    I just wanted to know if there was a celia like character, or maybe two or three of them, who just destroyed everyone when the population of rby players was at its height.
     
  6. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    I think over the last five years we've seen quite a few (destroy is a strong word, but every year there's been one player who stood out amongst the rest): me (2013), marcoasd (2014), Alexander (late 2015-2016), Peasounay (2017), roudolf (2018). If you want overall most dominant over the last five years (since the birth of Pokémon Perfect), it's marcoasd, easily. If you want greatest of all time (from the game's beginnings on the PBS/World Championship to now), I imagine you'd get varying answers depending on who you ask, though the amount of people who could give you an educated opinion are few and far between. I'm probably the only one who survived antiquity that was never isolated from the collective, competitive scene.

    One important thing to keep in mind that is that RBY has changed vastly from when it was played 18 years ago. It's practically a different game now, which is partially why I divide the greatest of all time into specific time periods.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
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  7. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    A game is more popular right after its release but the playerbase and the tournament scene may reach its best at any given point later - just take a look at TETRIS.
    Don't forget that in 1998 internet wasn't quite as popular as it is today, then other generations came out.

    GGFan's list looks accurate (also, I remember a time when I considered Crystal_ to be the best), but maybe it overlooks what happened on other communities (mostly Smogon) at the same time, and sometimes players playing on different communities just don't meet or don't meet often enough.
    About GSC, I think that Earthworm might be the best player for that tier among those who I've seen (don't know Celia, I would keep an eye on Lavos going forward). On the other hand, it doesn't necessarily mean that he got there on his own - other players might've been more influential shaping the metagame and I just missed that.
    I don't think "best player" is objective at all: sometimes even results are not, let alone something that depends on the criteria you're using and the time frame you happen to be active. The two best players might end up not meeting each others.
     
  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    In the context of PP, unlike all of these other places, we keep data on all of our major tournaments in one centralised place, our spreadsheet. Feel free to pore over the data here; there are many conclusions you can draw from it, depending on how you look at things, and in some ways, data is not a substitute for expert opinion.
     
  9. Stockings

    Stockings Mum stole me darts Member

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    I remember when I got into pokemon people always told me Earthworm was the single greatest player of all time and I'm sure he plays GSC mainly right? I've not looked much into my history so I'm prob wrong tho. (GGFan book 2 soon please)
     
  10. Triangles

    Triangles Member

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    Back in the early 2000s, there were only actually 5 Pokemon players in total - Chaos, VIL, Posho, Foggi, and littlelucario. As such, they regularly hosted small tours amongst themselves in RBY OU, which was just 'OU' at the time. The games would typically go on for hours and end in stalemates, until the arrival of a new player onto the tournament scene, GTM. He would bring in innovations such as switching and the use of Toxapex, and also became the first player to successfully perform a critical hit in Pokemon history. His reign of total dominance would last for years until the introduction of GSC, and the founding of Smogon by up-and-comer CALLOUS. GTM is considered the pound-for-pound best of all time almost unanimously by today's Pokemon playerbase.
     
  11. Kanbe Kotori

    Kanbe Kotori Member

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    old tales passed on by extremly wise pokemon ancestors tell that user Floppy invented the strategic movement known nowadays as the double switch, effectively revolutionizing the way this game has been played ever since. this historic benchmark compels me to show my support towards said user in this thread, for he is an inspiration to all of us rookies
     
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  12. autumn leaves

    autumn leaves Member

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    earthworm first earned his "greatest ever" title by being (almost) inarguably the most elite player in dpp when it was the main gen, and continued to maintain it with extensive success during bw1, especially the first leg. he became known for his gsc afterwards. he had some big wins in adv too though. look through old spls if you'd like confirmation.
     
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  13. PokemonHistoryTextbook

    PokemonHistoryTextbook Member

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    While GTM is undoubtedly in contention for one of the best players during the RBY Era, I think Triangles’ impulsive conclusion dismisses the prowess of another notable candidate, Bushtush.

    While I concur that the first successful critical hit documented in Pokemon history was achieved by GTM back in 2001, we mustn’t forget Bushtush’s accomplishments that have also echoed throughout the decades. From pioneering iconic move sets such as 4 attack Tauros to Thunder Wave Blissey, to developing strategies outside of the Poke-field such as verbal assaults and physical intimidation to daunt his opponent, his legacy will be forever embedded into the history of the sport. While his strategies aren’t always ethical (as evident from the numerous lawsuits filed against him), we mustn’t relinquish his long list of contributions. If I recall correctly, Bushtush soon retired from RBY after being (the first Indian-Canadian) inducted into the Pokemon Hall of fame due to medical injuries.

    To this day, Bushtush still remains one of the most fearsome players, although he has transitioned into sun and moon UU. It is in my opinion that had he not suffered from a rare illness known as ‘blackus africanus hyperpigmentation' and subsequent hospitalization for the latter half of the 2000’s, he would undeniably be one of the most celebrated athletes in RBY history.
     
  14. Fear

    Fear Member

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    This statement is pure personal speculation coming from you, not everyone's. As someone who has played the game as early as 2004 when RSE386 was main gen in Netbattle, I reassure you Celia wasnt the best in the game as you state. The only "legacy" he left behind is THAT one team, which by all means isnt perfect nor 350IQ but an attempt of hard stalling in an era were curselax was mostly banned and frowned upon, probably even before the release of NYC pokemon event moves. And by the way the forums you've searched to find topics(Aeturnus Societus) regarding that team were mine; a collaboration of all the netbattle clans united. The teams we posted there (iirc the celia team was posted by ViL or imperfectluck) came solely from us trying to spice interest up by passing down 'unused' or cool stuff that werent really usable or for archive pursposes to have older gen sub categories 'filled'. There are actually GSC forums still up from the GS Bots era, were in a hundreds of pages Celia's name is never mentioned as best nor hailed as top dog not even once. I'd advice you to search more and get a truer grasp of this gen if you really want to delve into such (probably meaningless) discussions. To my knowledge, nor ViL(did you know about his unbeatable celebi team?), nor Celia, nor bob(insane raikou encore team), names you might hear today were the best of GSC back then but are the players that transitioned better from the GS Bots to Netbattle before gen 3 became main. (eg GSC celebi was unbanned for a while in Netbattle iirc, thus ViL's celebi team).

    As a bonus for tolerating my rant, as I have never been involved in the RBY scene to answer the OP question;

    About ADV, back when it was current gen among the best players were goofball, Loki, Veteran in Love and last but not least, my personal favorite, biggest rival and a great friend of mine, Husk. He rarely lost, and played incredibly wellmade semi stalls based around Zapdos, with intelligent EV'ing and incredible predictions even when playing casually or friendlies. His style was a direct opposite of mine (which was versatile mons with aggression to keep tempo control). Honorable mentions to Giga Punch and imperfectluck(council / kd8 otome) too. Needless to say, Netbattle's ADV was vastly different than the ADV you came to know now, because of Sleep Talk mechanics. Most of you never came to know the terror of Restalk Zapdos and other prehistoric beasts such as Restalk BulkyMetagross, Restalk Regice, Dusclops and so on.

    About DPP, on Shoddy and early DPP (Garchomp era, Salamence era) the absolutely phenomenal players on the ladder and tournaments were panamaxis, Aldaron and earthworm(who knocked me off 1-0 by getting a 50-50 tie in smogon official 4, the last tournamentI participated on Smogon before retiring).
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
  15. teal6

    teal6 Member

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    the skill level got way higher in just the last few years alone. i was able to go insanely deep in RBY tours when i barely knew what i was doing and used a jynx lead team for every single game. anything pre SPL 7 should be considered pointless because it was like children playing a guessing game nonstop.

    that said marco, peas and alex are the clear best.
     
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  16. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    RBY was far from a guessing game in periods preceding your arbitrary measuring stick of SPL 7. Many tournament games from the Azureheights and Netbattle eras were decided largely by who had more experience, as there was a dearth of resources compared to what we have now. Take Hipmonlee for example. He was considered one of the best players of the Azureheights era for a good reason: he played the game religiously and thus knew more than most people. The only reason I was able to compete with him was because I played practically every day, read logs, picked peoples' brains on AIM to learn more, and spectated games whenever possible. I had to be incredibly active to compete with the likes of him, otherwise I would have lost every single time we played. Is it really a surprise that Hipmonlee is still considered competent to this day? Even though the metagame was vastly different to what it's become, the foundation that he (and I) gained still stands strong to this day.

    These days we have hundreds if not thousands of replays available on Pokemon Showdown. Players are also far more accessible than they were a decade ago thanks to the proliferation of social media, such as Skype and especially Discord. It's easy to establish a network of people you know and trust. After you finish your test games, you can watch dozens of replays to your heart's content. When I started playing, most games weren't saved due to the imperfect programming of the PBS, and the logs themselves usually weren't preserved, either. If someone played more than you, chances are you were at a huge disadvantage.

    What really mitigated the impact of experience was the Pokemon Online ladder. For the first time in RBY's history it was easy to play several games in a day, whereas in the Azureheights era you'd be lucky to get one or two full games in (sometimes games would end abruptly due to, once again, the PBS's numerous glitches). Moreover, there was now a concrete goal for the remnants of the playerbase to strive for, a playerbase which was nearly extinct from the dark ages of RBY2K10. Once the ladder was popular, Pokemon Perfect followed, and now there was a productive tournament scene for the first time in a decade.

    I also dispute your claim that "marco, peas, and alex" are the best. "The best" is very subjective, as there are numerous ways to measure one's success. Marco's reputation stems largely for the string of Master Tournaments he won in 2014. He's been very successful since then, but every year we've seen at least one more player accomplish more than him. Peasounay dominated last year but has shown to be far from invincible this year, which is due more to how developed the playerbase is. As for Alexander, he hasn't been as consistent in the tier as the likes of myself, Marco, Peasounay, Lusch, Troller, etc. I think it's better to classify players into tiers, as there's only so much you can do in the game itself. After all, we're now at a stage in RBY's history (the stage I call "globalization") that even inexperienced players can beat the game's titans, which is due not solely because of tier's simplistic structure, but also because we're in the information age now.

    Besides, this year the current "best" tier consists of Roudolf, Lusch, and Troller. I'd put Marco in there, but below all three of the aforementioned players.

    P.S. Can we please delete the autistic and terribly unfunny messages that only "made for Smogon" people would find humorous? I don't think this interesting thread deserves to be derailed by such an obscene amount of teenage-esque cringe. Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
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  17. teal6

    teal6 Member

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    nah dude you can just watch the old guys play, they're generally pretty bad (esp in the era before floppy invented the double switch.) any new gen RBY guy would easily go like 8-1 in any spl prior to 2015. top 3 rn (and all time) = peas, marco, alex
     
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  18. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    Writing in a lazy and vague manner doesn't make you sound more convincing, nor does it prove anything you're saying. First, I have no idea what you're trying to say in the first sentence. As for current gen OU players, that doesn't dispute the point I'm making that the reason they would succeed is because we're now in an age replete with valuable resources such as replays and social networks. If anything, it demonstrates that--of course a top player in a different tier can succeed in RBY. Nobody is saying they can't, but it would be much harder to do so in the game's beginnings because experience doesn't mean as much as it used to. Even somebody who has never played the game before can quickly excel in a highly competitive environment.

    How do you know how good players from the past were? Since you're from Smogon you might just be trolling, but all I'll say is that many people who started playing before you were born have proven to be successful a decade--or even more--after they started playing. There's not much that needs to be said, really. Maybe they don't play much anymore because they feel they have little else to prove or no time to do so, as age is certainly a factor despite our game being a battle of minds as opposed to muscles. Also, I didn't know RBY was a dead tier, or that BW NU is played in team tournaments; thank you for the enlightenment. As for prestige, there's plenty of prestige to gain from playing a tier for several years and winning hundreds of tournament games, regardless the petty criticisms from you and the people in your esoteric circle. It takes a lot of skill to win at RBY all year round, which is something only a few people can claim.

    There's no connection between me refuting your claim that RBY was a "guessing game" in previous eras by saying it was actually the period when experience mattered the most and your WCOP record. I don't know what you want me to say. Anybody who can play Pokemon competently in a different tier can easily do so in RBY in one tour--we all know this and openly admit it. Caetano93, a random name, beat Lusch and Peasounay in WCOPP. I went 1-2 in WCOP against an overall weaker playerbase but 3-0 in WCOPP against a stronger one. Therefore, consistency is a more valid measure of success, and if you only care about SPL (which, honestly, most serious RBY players see as a feather in their cap, but not the cap itself), then you're just deluding yourself. I've played in SPL and practically every serious tournament in PP. I won a season on PP, which required more than 30 wins. I only had to win 12 games in SPL to finish with a positive win/loss record, and in that season I played Peasounay, Metalgross, Idiot Ninja, Disaster Area, Ortheore, etc. In SPL I mostly played the same players that I always play on PP. If you can be successful on PP, then you're likely going to succeed on Smogon, which has been proven by roudolf, Peasounay, marco, etc.

    Motivation is subjective. You can't speak for everyone, only yourself and what people have told you. I took WCOPP just as seriously as SPL, just as I took POCL seriously. I try to win all of my games no matter what tournament it is. But based on SPL alone, why would you put Marco in the top 3 anyway? He's more well known for his myriad of accomplishments on PP. Tiba has had better peformances than marco, but no knowledgeable RBY player will put him in their top 3 or even top 10 because he's not consistent. Same goes for Alex and Peasounay. Roudolf, Lusch, and Troller are at the top right now--even I have to admit that.

    What you DID say that piqued my interest was arguing that you would dominate if you played alongside me in antiquity. Sure, if you traveled back in time with the same knowledge that you have now. You have many tournament games under your belt and have played the tier has to offer; however, what if you were just starting out? Now, keep in mind you don't have instant access to replays, it would be harder to connect with people, there are no analyses to be found, and so on. You still could be successful, but you'd probably have to play the game a lot more and would need to make more of an effort because the more experienced players would have far more of an advantage over you. I'm not even saying this era was better, actually. Just look at my win percentage from 2006-2010, which is absolutely insane (I would say I won 90% of my games). This was largely because I had a lot more experience than most of my opponents, and even when I played people who were on my level, I knew the game well enough and was battle tested enough to make the better plays and throw people off.

    P.S. I invented the double switch in 2003, a year after I invented switching Ground types into Thunder Wave, and two years after I invented using a team of six Pokémon as opposed to two or three.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  19. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja Member

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    well I mean, what teal is saying isn't really arguable

    marco/peas were really, really dominant until the rest of the field stepped it up and now they're not as dominant. this is just literally what happened, backed up by stats and records and anything you want. tiba was also up there. i'm sure that historically the pool had been even more dogshit in the past and there had been some insane performances by the 'everyone is dogshit' standard, such as the 90% winrate you claim, but peas/marco achieved similar dominance and did it more recently which automatically makes it more impressive - you bring up access to resources, which is a good thing to bring up and consider, but fail to acknowledge that those players were at the peak for years and no one managed to find ways to counter their styles until very recently, either because no one cared to use the resources or because they didn't know how to

    his "top 3 rn = marco alex peas" is an opinion that is highly debatable, but the fact that they elevated the level of RBY before the rest of the playerbase was anywhere close to catching up is not debatable at all, especially for marco and peas
     
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  20. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    "what teal is saying isn't really arguable"

    "this is an opinion that is highly debatable"

    Choose one. Also, it seems I've struck a chord with the Smodrones, resulting in the usual anti-PP sentiments, but I suppose this was inevitable given that I don't base my opinions solely off one tournament or highly delusional arguments such as how everybody else was terrible when these three had their best years. Marco had to play for an entire year before he started winning, which clearly indicates how exaggerated this claim that the playerbase was undeveloped and that he was the impetus behind this imaginary "revolution." In fact, the playerbase in 2013 was highly competitive, consisting of names such of myself, Lutra, M Dragon, Crystal, Velli, and others that I'm neglecting to mention. It took Marco almost a year to win just one tournament set; nobody is discrediting what he accomplished in the following year, but it was actually the quality of the playerbase that resulted in him winning more. While he may have influenced his countrymen, many others were fueled by their own desires as well. Furthermore, regional influence is an expected result of greatness; for example, I presume Peasounay has influenced some French players to play RBY more, just as I influenced German players to pay more attention to the tier when I played there actively.

    I don't know about this "dogshit standard" that you kids have this vehement disgust about, but all I know is that I come from antiquity yet I'm still considered one of the greatest ever, have won more tournament matches on PP than everybody except one person, and played alongside legends of the game who are still talked about today. Just because I was great doesn't mean others were bad. Hipmonlee started playing before I did yet still manages to drag his ancient body to victory. Nitro played in GSC tours on PP for a year and was considerably dominant. Kevin Garrett was great in SPL. Picollo had his run in the RBY GC. You shouldn't detest your elders, but rather learn from them and see what made them successful in the first place.

    Peasounay went through the same growing pains that Marco did, though he was actually more successful as he at least managed to win sets once in a while before his big year last year. However, to claim he's one of the three greatest ever because of one big year is simply a laughable and untenable argument. One doesn't need to look further at Roudolf to understand why, who accomplished everything Peasounay has this year and more, as he has also managed to win a season, something that eluded Peasounay during his big year. Before his run, Roudolf played on the ladder daily and wasn't even involved in the tournament until the middle of last year. Troller, who was one of the top three or four players last year, started playing RBY before Peasounay did. Myself, who was in the same category...well, I needn't say more. Nobody's motivation or desire to win would have flagged if he didn't exist. Also, no matter how good of a year you have, somebody will always do better in the future. Consistency is the true measure of success. Peasounay has been solid this year, but there are four or maybe five players I would rank over him.

    Alexander had an amazing year, but has played sporadically since then. Given how competitive PP has been since its establishment, there is no logical defense to claiming he reinvigorated everybody to do better. After a dominant 2016 he was practically nonexistent in 2017, which was maybe the most competitive year in PP history, a year led by players who started playing around the same time or even before he did.

    I'm fine with putting Marco in GOAT category as he's been playing for half a decade and has over 500 tournament wins under his belt. He's the only player besides myself who has a realistic chance of winning 1000 games, which is saying something when you consider that I started playing over a decade before he did. Even if he slows down or even stops entirely, he already has a legacy, but due to the competitive nature of this tier and the vast amount of resources available at players' disposal, it can be surpassed.

    No stats or records support this ridiculous claim that Marco, Peasounay, and Alexander are the triumvirate of inspiration (Smogon trolling can be abstract indeed). Stats and records are unbiased and show only one thing: who has won the most per year. Over the last five years the best players have been me (2013), marco (2014), Mister Tim (2015), Alexander (2016), Peasounay (2017), and Roudolf (2018). Any arguments about who influenced who (and, honestly, if you want to argue who the greatest ever is based on influence, I can make a claim to that) are superficial and irrelevant.
     
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  21. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja Member

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    this alone is enough to discredit you and your entire spiel

    you either can't comprehend the very simple message my post conveyed - "top 3 rn is arguable, but top 3 all time is hardly debatable" - or you deliberately misconstrued it to try to invalidate my post. and if either of these are true it's not worth trying to argue with you

    I don't know how you can say that Mister Tim was the best player in 2015 with a straight face when a cursory glance at the thread of the single MT he won reveals that he got ridiculously lucky to make his way there and given the small sample size of tournaments you're judging him on that should by all means be considered a fluke. You want to prioritize PP results? Fine, but at least present all the results and not just the ones that make your argument look solid. Even ignoring the countless victories on Smogon, Marcoasd in 2015 won an MT, Cerulean Cup 1, Fuchsia Cup 1, Vermillion Cup 2, to Mister Tim who only won one MT and baaarely edged him out Season 5 points (still losing by a good margin on 2015 total if you include the two Season 6 MTs which were played in 2015, where Tim lost round 1 both times to Marcoasd's 3rd and 2nd places).

    I'm not a smodrone or one who generally dislikes you, not nearly as much as other people around here, but this time I really have to say it: you're full of shit
     
  22. Mister Tim

    Mister Tim The most handsome man on PP Season Host

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    I got a lot of second places in cups that year, but I’m not even trying to say that I was best player in any time
     
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  23. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja Member

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    Yeah, it wasn't an attack on you. You're a good player who I respect but you know just as well as me that "best in 2015" is a ridiculous claim from GGFan
     
  24. Mister Tim

    Mister Tim The most handsome man on PP Season Host

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    Mb this was the most interesting season coz 3 players could get 1st place(me, GGFan and Marco). That’s why he reminded me.
     
  25. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    No, pointing out that you can't go with a sentence without massively contradicting yourself does not discredit me in any shape or form. Indeed, I certainly needn't worry about what the likes of you have to say, especially given your vile meltdowns in the past in which you belittle those that have achieved more than you. With that in mind, it is not a surprise that you're so harsh towards those that came before you, even though they were the ones that paved the way for Marco, Peasounay, Alexander, and yourself in the first place. You don't think the playerbase in 2003 was good? How do you know? Who have you played from that era besides me? Did you watch the games? Yes, mechanics were vastly different back then, but top players used Pokémon and movesets that are accepted standards to this day. If not for these players, RBY would have died 20 years ago after the official World Championship. If you want to argue influence, nobody is more influential than the first crop of great players. Everybody else who has succeed them (I won't even place myself in this category as I did not invent, popularize or conceptualize the basics besides lead Jynx, which came a bit later) is merely keeping the tradition alive that they created.

    While you can't actually prove that players from antiquity were bad, all I have to do is simply exist to prove that wrong. I'm from this era, and I played most of the elite players of the early 2000s (Nitro, Hipmonlee, Undone, Cloggerdude, GDPT, Shuveit, etc). If any one of them (we've already seen Hipmonlee do it in RBY and Nitro do it in GSC) ever decided to make a comeback, they would most certainly be able to catch up and play the game at a competent level. But, do you know what's truly funny about this? You chimed in to claim that teal's blatant trolling was the truth when I was arguing over his claim that RBY was a "guessing game" until three years ago. If you defend that, you're either a Smodrone troll who gets his jollies from derailing discussions or incredibly delusional.

    Who cares if Mister Tim got lucky in the season he won? Do you really want to be foolish and go down that road? I've lost dozens of games to bad luck, as has everybody. The only statistic that isn't subjective is that he won. It wasn't just the season he won, either: look at his placements in other tournaments--and no, I'm not only acknowledging what he accomplished on PP. He went deep in the Smogon GC as well, outplacing the likes of Marco and M Dragon. The major argument against him is that he ended the year on a weak note, but he ended up having better numbers overall. Hell, I even say this as somebody who is highly critical of Tim, but nobody can deny he won more than anyone else that year. I don't care about your "SPL record!"

    Did you even bother looking at the cups in 2015? Most of them were in inchoate stages and weren't on the level they're at now. The 2015 Vermilion and Fuchsia Cups were entirely different tours than they are now. And what about the Ultra League and Tokusane Cups? Mister Tim performed the best in those. Marco outperformed Tim from August to December, but four months a year does not make and eight is more than four.

    I wasn't aware I was disliked here. Perhaps you're actually referring to your home, a worthless cesspool of stupidity, toxicity and immaturity. I suppose I wouldn't be looked upon favorably in an environment like that, but that's alright. I'm beloved and respected in this realm, which is the most important thing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  26. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja Member

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    you're actually really stupid it you cannot understand what i'm saying when i say "this part of teal's message is arguable, this other part is not"
     
  27. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    That's cute. Let me try.

    Stupid person's way of thinking: call someone else stupid when all else fails.

    My condolences to stupid you and your stupid way of thinking.

    Love,
    GGFan
     
  28. teal6

    teal6 Member

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    i dont need to write a lot of words ggfan to get across my point. i'll write it out as succinctly as possible.

    average players of 2018 are miles better than top players of any time before like, 2015. the level of skill prior to that point could be considered outright amateur in comparison. people who you would expect to do "ok" in a big team tour like wcop or spl today would be absurdly dominant in years past.
     
  29. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    I can write as many words as I please. At first I wrote a great deal because I had to at least respect the possibility that this wasn't typical Smogon trolling and thus entertained the idea of having a real discussion, but now that it's obvious there's little to say other than that you're wrong and all of the arguments I've presented are correct while everything you say is trolling.

    So that's another victory for me. I didn't even need "Shimtup," the legendary blade that has been passed down throughout the ages to only the most exemplary warriors, to slay not one but two vile goblins. I've still got it after all of these years--my, I've come a long way after inventing the double switch and switching Ground types into Thunder Wave.
     
  30. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Member

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    I mostly agree with GGFan except that I taught him the double switch and that Jynx lead was a thing long before he started playing.

    So just to respond to the original post, cause I like talking about pokemon history.

    So I started playing in 2001, from my experience of playing people after their prime I felt like Sonuis, Fish, EeveeTrainer, Haste2 and Nitro are the best players from before then. Plus they all won major tournaments so its kinda justifiable. But when I started playing the guy to beat was Vineon, he was a class apart.

    2003 was my year. From Dec 2002 to Nov 2003 I entered basically every ou tournament I could, including an IBT and didnt lose a single tournament RBY OU battle. I mean, I was lucky as fuck, and the standard overall was a bit low (with a few top tier players excepted) but I was still way better than everyone else.

    I think there was a specific reason at this point that the standard was fairly low. The main simulator for GSC at this point was the GSBots, but RBY had to be played on PBS. So not many players were making that transition.

    But there was a young crop of enthusiastic dudes who were still learning, and in 2004 they started to actually get good, by the end of 2004 the standard was really high. I remember having some amazing games at this time with the likes of Lesm46, Redwall Dude, Metal Scyther, and you can throw GGFan in there too. But most of those guys ended up losing motivation at that point and giving it away just as they were starting to really get it. Or in GGFan's case he kept getting banned.

    Then in 2004 Smogon starts. The pool of players overall is getting bigger, but we are having issues with sims again. We have an RBYbot but the main sim is now Netbattle. Netbattle is a much, much better sim than an IRC bot too, so fewer people are bothering with RBY.

    Eventually we get RBY on Netbattle and all of a sudden a new gen comes out and we move to Shoddybattle and that doesnt support RBY either. So again RBY is taking a major back set to the newer gens, and basically this sort of situation, where RBY isnt supported on the main sim, lasts for a very long time.

    As a consequence most of Smogon's RBY players from this time are great at pokemon, but they just dont really get RBY. Instead its guys from other sites that are specifically focussed on using Netbattle who really are getting good. So the name that stands out for me from this era is Floppy, and by this era I am talking about really quite a long time.

    But nowadays you have the best of all worlds. The main sim supports RBY and has a ladder, so you have the huge player pool and there are big tournaments so there is the motivation, and I have said it before, the standards have never been better. But I dont think the standard is so much better that the names I have mentioned here wouldnt have coped at their prime. They would have to learn a lot, but if they were playing they would have learnt it.

    One of the reasons I have stuck around after WCoP this time is because of times like this when the standard has been particularly high (like 2004) it often hasnt remained high very long. It seems like already a lot of your top players are hinting that they have done everything they can in RBY and are thinking about giving it up. It can be quite an unforgiving game.

    I think a thing definitely have to come to terms with is that maintaining standards requires work, and its inevitable your workrate is going to fade. Its really hard to keep playing when you know you are playing to a worse standard than you are capable of. Especially when you have previously played to an extremely high standard. It can definitely feel like you are undermining your previous work---and in a way you are. People will assume that you were only ever as good as you currently are and your previous tournament wins were only because the other players were bad. This thread is proof of that. But those people are wrong.

    The average players of today are no better than the average players of previous years. Trust me. I've seen it all.
     
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  31. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    I started double switching as early as TOS finals, and most certainly pulled one off in our first ever game, which I won (OH, HO HO HO HO HO HOOOOO!) As for the Jynx lead, I never said it wasn't used, just that it was shunned by several people and that I was the one that showed otherwise.

    I was red hot in 2003, actually, as I won the most tournaments out of any player that year (12). I disagree that the standard at the end of 2004 was high, as this was when GameFAQs was barren, which was arguably the epicenter of competitive play. 2003 was the best period in the history of the game for a long time--maybe even until Pokémon Perfect's inception, though I argue it was quite competitive in 2006 and 2007.

    Getting banned from Smogon meant nothing, as the quality of RBY on Smogon was unremarkable until recently (on that note, it's largely because of Pokémon Perfect's existence). I'm considered the game's "iron man" for a good reason.
     
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  32. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Member

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    You probably missed out on the quality play in 2004 unfortunately. I may be getting my timings messed up as well, it might be more end of 2003ish.. It was definitely pre-smogon. But those guys were definitely really starting to figure things out. But it was definitely a very brief flash.

    And this would happen on smogon as well from time to time. Though I dont think ever as intensely as that specific instance.

    Also I taught you double switching long before there were any TOSes.

    But do you have logs of any of these battles? I'd be keen to see them.
     
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  33. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    I love soaking up the history! Hipmonlee I knew that competitive RBY had always been a bit "away" from Smogon in a sense - other communities moreso than Smogon being the center of gravity for the metagame's playerbase throughout its history - but I didn't really know exactly why. How did PO and rby2k10 fit into it? I remember hearing - but don't know if it's true or where I read it - that when PO was deciding on what RBY tiers to have on the simulator, they had a choice between smogon's and rby2k10s and you basically let RBY2K10's be PO's official RBY tiers and put Smogon's RBY tiers to just OU and UU.

    Honestly the fact that RBY2K10 was reaching its death as I joined, plus the fact that Smogon had been so historically standoffish to RBY (and looks to be going more that direction again I hear) helped me build on the RBY community Lutra had gathered here... also the limited resources on smogon and the tier lists both had me thinking "I could do better than that" at least after a bit of experienceand now we have done better than that (although the retiering has stalled and tiering honestly is such a tempermental and difficult process at the best of times...)
     
  34. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Member

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    rby2k10 is a good example of how the small side communities are often the best places to grow the non current gen OU tiers. Like they all started on Netbattle when Smogon was focussing on Shoddybattle (I think, I am not exactly sure of their origins). You get a pool of dedicated players with the attitude of trying to improve as much as they can and after a bit of time you'll get great players out of it. I think also being outside of the mainstream gives a group of players a bit of motivation as well, to prove themselves against the arrogant smogoners or GSBotters or AzureHeightsers or whatever.

    And smogon's RBY tiers were old and not great.

    So in the olden days before smogon, UU was just decided by whatever people felt in their hearts was UU. So you would say something like "lets play a UU game" and your opponent would turn up with Lapras and Victreebel against your Vileplume and Dewgong. When you had a UU tournament the host would just declare the list of what was allowed for that tournament and people would bitch and moan and play anyway. Or rather sign up then not actually complete games..

    So when smogon was making tiers me and Justin8649 had a big argument and eventually somehow came to some kind of an agreement. And for me, my thinking was mostly influenced by one big UU tournament I had played in early on where Dodrio dominated the shit out of the even and everyone agreed it shouldnt have been allowed. So I was working on the principle that Dodrio should be banned from UU, and went from there.

    So we had this huge BL list. Which wasnt intended as a playable tier, it was intended as a guide for new players to understand what they should expect to see in OU and what they shouldnt. And then everything else was UU, which was intended to be playable.

    But either way these tiers didnt see a lot of actual use.. Like playing RBY was rare enough in itself, RBY UU was basically non-existant.

    Then rby2k10 came along they started actually playing these tiers. When I got wind that that was happening I was concerned that the tiers werent very good and people were giving them some kind of respect that they didnt really deserve. So I deleted them, and went to a model that was basically OU and not OU. Which I think upset the rby2k10 crowd a bit.. My hope really was that they would actually evaluate the tiers properly and build a tier system that actually worked for them, rather than what was a pretty shoddily put together and poorly maintained set that we had. And I think they did? I dont know to what extent their tierlist resembled the original smogon list in the end tbh.

    So for a sim to implement multiple tiers in RBY it was a no brainer to use their lists rather than the smogon ones.
     
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  35. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    No, that was the Fisherman with six Magikarps on Route 21.
     
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  36. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    The whole time I was reading this I was waiting for you to finally tell me who the best was and that moment never came.
     
  37. Pais

    Pais Contact me on Smogon for scheduling Member

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    marcoasd caput mundi
     
  38. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    The main issues with RBYK210 were that its founders were assholes who were more interested in trolling and belittling others--especially older players--and how esoteric their circle really was. Only a handful of people experimented with their tiers (tiers which were, to a large extent, not tested in tour play), all of whom would stop playing a year or two after the site was established. Activity in tours was also a major problem, as about half were canceled in its first year. And let's not forget the anniversary tour, which took half a year to reach the finals despite the cash prize and was actually canceled--in the finals.

    I will say that one significant development they contributed to the metagame was Gengar's influence. Gengar became a lot more common from 2010 up until about 2013, which was when I introduced FriendlyMie on the PO ladder. Gengar usage gradually began to plummet over the next couple of years.

    Going back to the topic of tiers, we did have tiers on GameFAQs in 2003, but they were, as Hipmonlee said, largely determined by gut feelings. For example, in the summer UU tournament my opponent used Persian, which is considered OU now. I used Victreebel in the semi finals and Cloyster in the finals, which are obviously OU Pokemon by today's standards. There was, however, a tier on GameFAQs called "restricted UU," which was basically the ancestor to NU. I wrote up a tier list for it based on Haste2's recommendation, though in retrospect it was pretty inconsistent. For example, the tier had Butterfree, Magneton, and then Charizard, who is obviously a step or two above the other two.

    In 2004 an attempt to write an official tier list on GameFAQs was attempted, but the thread was derailed by trolling, inability to compromise, and also not enough people contributing (it was largely just me, Redwall Dude, and maybe Hipmonlee). When I created THE Alternative in 2005, a major goal of mine was to create an official tier list. I divided my tiers into OU, BL, "top UU," "UU," and "NU" (NU was originally "restricted UU"), and finished the project in 2006. I made a few changes here and there over the next two years, ending up with these tiers in 2008.

    OU
    Tauros
    Alakazam
    Chansey
    Exeggutor
    Slowbro
    Jynx
    Rhydon
    Golem
    Zapdos
    Articuno
    Starmie
    Snorlax
    Lapras
    Gengar

    BL
    Persian
    Raichu
    Jolteon
    Hypno
    Clefable
    Kangaskhan
    Moltres
    Dragonite
    Golduck
    Gyarados
    Mr. Mime

    Top UU
    Tentacruel
    Electabuzz
    Dodrio
    Machamp
    Sandslash
    Charizard
    Nidoking
    Venusaur
    Victreebel
    Dugtrio
    Blastoise
    Cloyster
    Omastar
    Kabutops
    Tangela
    Nidoqueen
    Weezing
    Poliwrath
    Kingler
    Pinsir
    Raticate
    Fearow
    Vaporeon
    Ninetales

    UU
    Wigglytuff
    Aerodactyl
    Hitmonlee
    Venomoth
    Onix
    Muk
    Scyther
    Marowak
    Pidgeot
    Lickitung
    Porygon
    Vileplume
    Arbok
    Rapidash
    Primeape
    Electrode
    Magneton
    Magmar
    Dewgong

    NU
    Ditto
    Farfetch'd
    Hitmonchan
    Golbat
    Butterfree
    Beedrill
    Parasect
    Seaking
    Seadra

    These tier lists would be used in the German circuit, primarily on Pokemonexperte and Pokefans, and were definitely referred to by the RBY2K10 people. However, like with RBY2K10, these tiers could be scrutinized for a dearth of contributors (though there were twice as many finished tours on TA than RBY2K10, so the sample size was much larger, at least).
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018

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