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All Gens Where should we prioritise for retiering?

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Disaster Area, Jan 2, 2018.

?

If you're interested in getting involved in the 1U retiering effort in any gen, tell us which!

  1. I'm interested in helping to make GSC 1U

    8 vote(s)
    57.1%
  2. I'm interested in helping to make ADV 1U

    4 vote(s)
    28.6%
  3. I'm interested in helping to make HGSS 1U

    3 vote(s)
    21.4%
  4. I'm interested in helping to make SM 1U

    6 vote(s)
    42.9%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    In the grand scheme of things, I love the idea of retiering but it's a very time-consuming process. Given the size of the forum (not all that big) we can't just let each tier's community have a go at retiering without having some people really pushing it and it being a big focus for the site, so I think we should talk about how we want to prioritise things.

    There's 2 different sorts of tiering that we need to do, the first of which is making 1U tiers, and the second of which is lower tiers.

    The generations with adequate 1U tiers, and hence which can focus on lower tiers, are RBY, BW, and ORAS. I think that RBY's retiering should carry on as is, there's a small but large enough and dedicated enough group currently working on and involved in the retiering of 2U.

    For BW and ORAS, I think the first goal is getting enough activity in the 1U tier in the first place. BW's 1U Season #2 signups opened yesterday and are already at 16 users, which is a good sign. Hopefully we can get a consistent number of active players across seasons and build up the community that way, and at some point we can move onto creating the boundary between 1U & 2U and then testing 2U. ORAS already has a 2U but really needs more activity in 1U and the viability rankings & boundary probably need serious re-evaluation once we have an active & competent playerbase for the metagame.

    Now, that leaves GSC, ADV, HGSS, and USM all in need of their own 1U tiers. My point of view right now is that we ought to focus on one at a time but bring as much focus to them as possible. My question then is mainly, who is interested in this, is anyone interested in any generation in particular, and is anyone able to bring in others to get involved? It won't work unless we have at least a handful of dedicated individuals willing to get their hands dirty and figure things out.

    Here's the current state of each unfinished 1U tier:
    - GSC retiering was briefly started but died out fairly quickly. SamuelBest is very keen on seeing it retiered. One important thing which has changed since that process began is that now non-max HP & status are permissible, because we have not agreed to automatically include cleric clause.
    - ADV retiering started and there was a very controversial vote upon whether to ban Kyogre, and after Kyogre was banned the new frontiers petered out.
    - HGSS retiering has not even begun, but it would begin w/ a meta noone will have actually played before due to the discovery that you can acquire Arceus below level 100, as well as the Giratina base stats glitch.
    - SM grandfathered in most of the ORAS bans besides Mega Salamence (which was nerfed). It has been tested a little.
     
  2. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Personally, I see establishing 1U tiers as a priority over lower tiers (except for rby obviously). Broadly speaking, being the highest playable tier carries a lot more weight and status than lower tiers I think, which is why I place more importance on them than lower tiers, which exist as alternatives to said main tier.

    That said, I'm happy to support pretty much any tiering project. I think we just need some means of identifying what's most likely to succeed. There needs to be a decent number of people who are also likely to discuss the tier rather than just playing it. I'm unsure of how best to gauge this though. Maybe if we have a monthly signup thread where people register interest in whatever potential new tiers they'd be interested in testing? That would at least allow us to gauge numbers, though it is dependent on people using it, which might be an issue because I suspect a number of people mightn't be interested in such a thread, even if they would be attracted by a tour that bears the name of a tier they'd be interested in. So it's not perfect, but idk, still an idea.

    There are a couple other solutions I thought of, where people effectively "subscribe" to (potential) tiers and get notified of any activity, but that would probably require some programming or a lot of manual work by staff and thus probably wouldn't be worth implementing

    Also random note but I thought we didn't count the arc/gira(o) discoveries in g4 because they're technically glitch only pokemon?

    fwiw I also support testing all of oras/usm's bans, just because there haven't been any public tests afaik and that's not something I really like.
     
    Disaster Area likes this.
  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    idk the exact details, tagging Enigami. We probs ought to discuss this further

    in USM we could start straight from the top, but retesting from the top vs where they are now is some extra work and i'm not sure we should be prioritising that right now. I feel u tho, it's probs a good idea if we can get people interested
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  4. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    I've added a poll to this post.
     
  5. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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  6. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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  7. Hofuku

    Hofuku Member

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    Before any retiering is done, a banning philosophy should be established. After that is done, I think it is best to proceed with SM. As of right now, we don’t even have a playable meta for SM pokemon, so logically it seems the necessary generation to be retiered.

    I second dropping things down as Eseque mentioned for tiers like DPP/ADV/GSC (even BW which I firmly believe needs to be retiered once more as the tiering process was done by a bunch of like minded individuals ie uber mains). This would help in the lack of interest to re tier.
     
  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    We have a philosophy but it's very loose and we expect players to have their own personal point of view on this. Our philosophy is that we ban stuff when it's broken, with a slight nod to increasing diversity (like in gen 6 there's no reason to have a pokemon w 90%+ usage of just 1 particular form, because that's clearly warping the meta really heavily on its own), but what makes something "broken" is something we don't have a perfect objective criteria for, nor want one for. Smogon tries to make something objective out of it, and we don't believe in that approach. Brokenness isn't something we can very easily say explicitly, yet at the same time it's something players generally know in their gut.

    I think that a better alternative may be to have a policy of allowing some quick bans early on if players feel that the ubers tier of a generation has broken elements, so that we can sooner end up with a tier that looks neither like ubers nor ou which makes it fundamentally much more interesting. That's a big part of why this thread is important.
     
  9. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    I wonder if it makes the most sense to start with USM, for a couple of reasons.

    #1 - the starting point is not ubers, so we don't have players already experienced in the tier who will as actively oppose change.
    #2 - 5 votes in the poll is not quite the most of the options but it's close enough and the most straightforward to work with.
     

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