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RBY OU / 1U (OverUsed) What is the best Poison Type in RBY OU/1U?

Discussion in 'Analysis and Research' started by Disaster Area, Jun 14, 2019.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    I think people are pretty high on Victreebel these days, maybe placing it above Gengar. I'm just interested in whether people think it's actually the best Poison-type in RBY OU now?
     
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  2. ErPeris

    ErPeris Do or do not. There is no try. Season Host

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    In my opinion Vic is the best poison type in RBY OU.
    Gengar is the second best competitive posion type and besides them there are no really competitive Pokemon.
    Arbok is outclassed by other wrappers, Venusaur is outclassed by Vic since it doesn't have Wrap, Muk is trash and my beloved Venomoth doesn't have any good stab move, although it has at least the merit of being the fastest sleep powder user of the tier.
    The 2 Nido have some merits, but i don't think they need to be considered usable in OU: we need to distinguish what is really strong, from what is instead just fun to use.

    Something really interesting is that the best poison type of the tier is walled by all the other poison type.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
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  3. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    1st is Victreebel, 2nd is Gengar.

    The only usable Poison-types in contention for 3rd are:

    Venusaur, who's greater defense over Victreebel helps it to avoid 2HKOs from Rhydon, PhysLax and Tauros over Victreebel, and has good odds of surviving 3 Body Slams where Victreebel is guaranteed to be KO'd. 80 speed over 70 speed is useful now that Cloyster and Victreebel are common.

    Nidoking & Nidoqueen basically fill in the anti-Electric niche, which Rhydon and Golem fill much better thanks to their Rock-typing. The Nidos type weaknesses are overblown a bit though, even Rhydon is hammered almost as much by Psychics, and shares their Ground & Ice weaknesses. Their biggest problem is lack of offense, Rhydon almost always matches or outdoes them in damage even when the Nidos hit super effectively. In the current meta, their >70 Speed and Grass-neutrality means they can actually engage Victreebel unlike GolDon, and aren't exactly sitting ducks for unparalyzed Cloyster or Lapras.

    Tentacruel, which can utterly demolish slow teams if you can somehow get everything with >100 speed out of the picture. Which typically won't happen until very late game. But if it does, it'll be a monster.

    Arbok is outclassed by Victreebel and Dragonite, no question. Its only place in OU is para-wrap spam alongside the superior Victreebel and Dragonite. Which I think might actually work, but I've gotten too few games with it to give an evaluation to the para-wrap spam archetype. Outside of that specific archetype though, Arbok is trash.

    Beedrill, Vileplume, Golbat and Venomoth, Muk and Weezing are all trash. I'd even place Haunter higher than them, I can atleast see some madlad mindgame play even if you basically have to bring Gengar and is just a bad and dumb idea in general. The others I see no value in.

    I'll go over Haunter too cause Wynaut. Worst Poison-type that is remotely usable in OU, but somebody could technically pull some 999 IQ powermoves with it. Still a better Victreebel counter than Venomoth though. I still think I'd even take Butterfree over Venomoth because EQ immunity. One of these days ErPeris we need to have a duel of the useless powder bugs.

    There's a power gap from 2nd to 3rd, and probably not a very large gap between Venu, Nidos, Tentacruel & Bok. In a vacuum, Venusaur wins hands down, but the competition with Vic really hurts. My gut says Venusaur still takes 3rd, though Arbok in time might take over #3 because it fills a role (3rd para-wrap mon) that is virtually uncontested, just need to figure out whether para-wrap spam works or not.
     
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  4. ErPeris

    ErPeris Do or do not. There is no try. Season Host

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    I agree with Enigami: the gap between #2 and #3 is too big. Some poison type are fun, but not good enough for the tier.
    Probably the best one, leaving aside the first two, is indeed Venu, but there aren't many good reasons to play him instead of Vic.
    How many players would choose Venu instead of Vic when taking the team to use?

    Ps: i've used both Butterfree and Venomoth and i agree with you when you say they are both trash. Butterfree's ground immunity is "good" but don't forget that it makes it weak to electric/ice moves too, which are everywhere. Also, Venomoth outspeeds Cloyster, Victrebell and Venusaur, instead Butterfree goes in speed tie with the first 2 and it's slower than the third one.
    It's not easy to decide which one sucks the most, but I would personally use Venomoth (in fact I used it at r1 of mt53 and for some reasons it made me won the game xD).
     
  5. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    I think you could plausibly argue that Venu is better than Bel purely as an SDer- the bulk I think is more important than Bel's attack, since it allows Venu to fare better against Normals and Don, whereas Bel's attack power mostly matters against Zam and Jolt. Also there's the speed difference, which is more relevant than ever. Tbh last time I was building a team I strongly considered Venu because I was considering adding a Grass attacker and also wanted stronger Don coverage. Of course, Venu's advantage as an SDer is slim, and Bel brings soooo much more to the table in other regards that it easily overshadows Venu.

    Anyway, I haven't actually used Bel lately, but I can totally buy into Bel being better than Gar- Gar's all but disappeared as a lead and it's a somewhat niche option in the 5th slot, so overall it doesn't have a huge role. As for Venu I think it's easily 3rd place. The only knock against it is that it's outclassed, but were it not for that it would easily be a usable pokemon in its own right. I don't think any of the other Poison types can claim that, I consider them all totally unviable. That said, I could be sleeping on Tenta, my experience with it is limited. At they very least its offensive potential is strong- comparing it to Cuno really highlights this, but idk its poor defensive utility prob holds it back. So Bel, Gar and Venu are the only Poison types I consider viable, Tenta could maybe be added to that list, but all the others I don't think are worth using.
     
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  6. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    Bel's attack power also gives it a better chance of ohkoing chansey at +2 iirc
     
  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Venusaur can't, by rather a large margin (it has a pretty good chance to fail to OHKO Zam with +2 Hyper Beam, and can't 2HKO Chansey with +2 Body Slam). Victreebel has 17.9%.
     
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  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    yeah I forgot the exact details, point is vic's extra attack matters
     
  9. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    You guys said pretty much it all; other than that, Victreebel is far better than Gengar because it can sweep while Gengar can't.
    Rhydon being popular lately helped a lot too: not only Razor Leaf OHKOs, Gengar has a bad time against it (and that's also after you succeded in taking Chansey out and paralysing Starmie) and on the other hand Bel pales when it's facing Zapdos while Gengar can somewhat fight it.
    Can Venusaur sweep? That's hard, it definitely doesn't come with the same ease of having Wrap and I think it justifies Gengar>Venusaur because Gengar still has a respectable role of blanking booms and walling awkward movesets of Lax/Tauros. I think Gar vs Venusaur is actually a close call and that's all Poison-Type has to say in RBY OU.
    Tentacruel has some decent raw power, but no access to status - at least it speed ties Zapdos but Blizzard + +2HB should be only 50%ish to KO; in my little experience, Tauros hurts A LOT.

    1. Victreebel 2. Gengar 3. Venusaur 4. Tentacruel 5. Haunter (theoretically)
     
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  10. lord of the crabs

    lord of the crabs Member

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    Gengar is obviously better than Victreebel. Victreebel is non-existent in the ladder, while Gengar is unpopular at the very least.

    Lead Gengar's usefulness isn't limited to it's lead matchups and it will always be a solid option for many different team comps no matter how common Alakazam and Starmie leads are. Immunity to Explosions and Wrap, walling most EQ-less Snorlax sets, free switches into Body Slams and Hyper Beams, and easy double switches into EQ resistant/immune teammates. The ability to outright demolish a long list of less common pokemon, for example Victreebel, Cloyster, Persian and like half of the random UU pokemon your enemy might try. Gengar might not sweep entire teams alone, but with it's great utility, general unpredictability and Explosion even non-lead Gengar has been rising in popularity in the past years.
     
  11. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    I'd agree that on ladder, Gengar will be better if for nothing else than stopping those obnoxious Dragonite 6th Hail Mary's cold. But Pokemon Perfect doesn't cater to ladder, its focus is on tournament play where Victreebel has more than shown its value. Beating random UUs doesn't mean much when you're playing against top players that will most often be bringing top OU Pokemon that incidentally demolish Gengar. And the common Victreebel set is usually dual powder with Wrap, so even with sleep clause active, Victreebel can still hurt Gengar by paralyzing it and abusing Wrap to safely bring in something that Gengar does not want freely switching into it, say a Rhydon that is now faster because Gengar was paralyzed.

    From what I recall of PP tournament stats, Lead Gengar has dropped like a brick over the years, so you're mostly going to be seeing Gengar as a non-lead, which is admittedly decent for the reasons you mentioned, but not as threatening as seeing Victreebel when you bring something like Starmie + Rhydon, or slow teams in general.

    So Victreebel > Gengar for me in tournament play, but I do think if I were dealing with ladder scrubs I would favor Gengar > Victreebel just to stop shenanigans.
     
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  12. fawfulmk-II

    fawfulmk-II Member

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    Nidoking In Game, Vic & Gar in Meta.
     
  13. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Never really used it myself. I suppose it's good as a generalist, but it's not really much of a specialist and needing the EQ TM to get STAB isn't great. Venusaur and Victreebel are pretty strong contenders since they learn Sleep Powder (for captures) and Razor Leaf is crazily powerful.
     
  14. Longfellow

    Longfellow Member

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    Depends on what kind of in-game you're looking at (speedrun? something that more resembles how an average player plays?) but the Nidoran line is considered better than the 'saurs due to a far superior early phase—Horn Attack at a low level (instead of Tackle), final phase at level 16, better attack typing (many if not most trainer Pokémon resist Grass), and much better coverage with TMs. It gets closer/less clear if you're just looking at mid- or endgame. I'm partial to Tentacruel as best endgame poison-type (water pokes are pretty much always good in-game and Tentacruel's stat line is as good as it gets)
     
  15. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Well, I mean, the elephant in the room here is that Pokemon R/B is so easy that you can do whatever you want and still win.

    I will say that having a sleeper is pretty darned important to the "catch 'em all" goal, though. Saurs and Bels aren't the earliest sleepers available (earliest is obviously Butterfree), but they're pretty good through the midgame (endgame less so, as like the vast majority of sleepers they get torn apart by the legends' STAB moves).

    What I was also getting at is that with limited TM availability Nidorans are a rather major opportunity cost. I mean, so are most of the OUs, but at least there's a point to spending them on those.
     
  16. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    Venusaur does not even get Sleep Powder in the earlier stages of the game. It leans it at level 55 which is pretty damn late for in-game purposes (even if hypothetically you keep it as Bulbasaur to learn it earlier, it'll still only learn it at lv 41). Oddish (lv 19) and Bellsprout (lv 18) and Butterfree (lv 17) are the ones you should be talking about in that regard, which leaves Bellsprout and Oddish if we only talk Poison types. But the problem there is that Bellsprout is a million times better even in-game than Oddish (Vine Whip+Gowth early on vs Absorb, Razor Leaf vs Petal Dance later, and that's not even talking about Wrap) and it is only available on Blue.
    About TMs, I wanna mention that even with Razor Leaf and in-game being easy, Venusaur/Ivysaur desperately needs the Body Slam TM to succeed because Grass is just such a poor offensive type and stuff that resist it like Poison or Flying types are pretty common in the games.
     
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