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RBY OU / 1U (OverUsed) What if Tauros was the problem ?

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Peasounay, Nov 8, 2017.

  1. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Don't panic, chill out, I know you weren't expecting that, I'm not asking for a ban, it's just a discussion I want to have

    This is also another way of responding to the thread made by Troller and marcoasd: RBY 1U (Universal) - Make Rby great again | Pokémon Perfect

    This is probably gonna be a clusterfuck of ideas, so sorry in advance if it's not structured. It is some crazy thought (or is it?) I had and the more I think about it the more I think the discussion is at least worth having.

    Over the last months, some people, mostly on this forum, argued that the current state of RBY is "bad", not every one agrees on that (I don't necessarily do) but some do. Banning Chansey was brought up and debated, and recently even putting the old mechanics back into the game (and in this thread, there was even the idea of banning Snorlax), hell, Lutra even brought up unbanning Mew, not for the same reasons but some possible changes of the tier were proposed.

    If possible changes are proposed, it means some people are seeing issues in RBY, so before proposing anything, this is the first question that needs to be asked: is there an issue in RBY right now ?

    This is really difficult to answer because obviously opinions are gonna matter a ton here. The lengths of certain games that are really stally and long mainly because of Reflect Chansey and Reflect Snorlax were brought up. I don't know if that's an issue, but these long games do happen in reality.

    Another thing that might be an issue that was (quickly, I'll admit) brought up in for example this post by Ortheore was once again, Reflect Normals but also Tauros ditto, and this is where I want to start.

    I don't think Reflect Normals are that much of an issue really, these 150+ turn games happen if you're using Reflect Normals yourself, which you're not forced to do, there's a ton of counterplay to them. I've spammed Alakazam + Reflect Chansey for months and these days I'm not too sure it's still that strong, because a lot of players that are not even RBY mains or who aren't considered more than decent now know what to do against it, they've adapted their play.

    Tauros dittos on the other hand, are something you cannot outplay. There are these mindgames of "is he going to try and absorb that beam with his Egg or whoever his bulky last is ?" but it's still just a mindgame, and in the end, the Tauros war that happens in I don't know how many RBY games in 2017 are very, very influent on the outcome of the game. The winner of it sometimes simply wins the game, and we all know how awful it is to eat a Crit Body Slam on the first exchange. I know in the long run you'll win half of those ditto situations and lose the other half, but I don't know if it's something to desire that so much X turns battles get decided by this. Now it is obviously possible to outplay your opponent enough that you're in a good enough winning position before the ditto happens (or even outplay so hard that your opponent has to use his Tauros even earlier but that's fairly rare) so that losing it won't lose you the game, but as a top player, I can assure you that at the highest level against very competent opponents, how this ditto goes can often simply decide who wins the game. And against weaker players, when you're in the situation I described above, scenarios like your opponent getting a first exchange Crit Body Slam and then winning the speed tie, or simply winning the ditto and then getting a Crit Hyper Beam can make you go from having a good winning position to simply losing. I know how luck is a factor in Pokemon and every generation etc but honestly if you're telling me that bulls going insane and reversing the outcome of the game in like 2 turns "doesn't happen enough to consider Tauros dumb/broken/or at least discussable" I will either call you a liar, or someone who doesn't play the game. We're talking about a mon who will Crit slightly more than once every five move.

    Obviously, from a mathematical point of view, this happens for you as much as it happens against you, but is it really desirable to think "Alright I created a nice winning position for myself" but to be scared about that Tauros being healthy in the back ? I know other dittos happen but if you think about it they don't occur that much (second one being Zapdos, Chansey freeze-wars are non existent these days and Lax dittos are usually a trade, if one of the lax survives it's in Tauros range and you're scared of switching out to preserve it because Tauros is capable of wrecking the switch-in) whereas the Tauros ditto happens in almost every game (even if it isn't the deciding moment every time). Honestly I think that a lot of RBY's reputation of being a haxy unplayable uncompetitive metagame has a lot to do with Tauros himself.

    Does all of this make Tauros broken though ? I don't know, and does it make RBY unbalanced or uncompetitive ? I don't know either. Not unplayable at least. To be fair, RBY over the years has proven to be a playable metagame that could be and was used in tournaments. Top players have a high win rate. It was never a perfect metagame and we've accepted its flaws mainly because at the end of the day we're just playing a game we love that wasn't designed for competitive play, but when I've shared these Tauros thoughts with some people I was just astonished to how some of them just called me crazy and didn't even think twice about it. I know Tauros is the symbol of RBY (ironic since we RBYers are always trying to prove it's not as dumb as it can look) but... does it even matter ? I know Pokemon players don't like changes especially in their Old metagames but can we at least discuss this ? Can you, RBY player of 2017, look at me in the eyes and tell me "Yes Peasounay, Tauros is absolutely fine" ? It's insane to me that bringing back Paraslam mechs was brought up, but not this.

    I'm not saying Tauros has no counterplay or that no strategies exist by the way (I'm not gonna list everything I assume you just know), but crossing my fingers every time I have to switch into something else than Snorlax against this makes me question if it's really a good Pokemon to have in our tier and if it actually brings something positive to the table.

    Now the second question that has to be asked is the following: would banning Tauros make RBY better ?

    I don't know, and we won't know until we've tried it.

    Isa suggesting the Chansey ban was met with a lot of disagreements (which I was part of), it was still tested nonetheless, and the conclusion was that it wasn't better, but it was tested.

    Bringing paraslam back was suggested too, it was met with disagreements, mostly because of how much of a change it is compared to cardridge mechanics. Did it have arguments going for it to make the tier better ? It had, mainly putting those 3 Normal Types under more control. The guy who is to me the best RBY player of all times thinks it could've been good for the metagame, so I at least listened to him. I ended up disagreeing (and it was about adhering to cardridge mechanics anyway, not on if it would make the tier better), but I at least thought about it. I'm asking you the same thing here even if it sounds crazy to you.

    In the same thread, banning Snorlax was brought up and quickly put away because of the obvious chain-ban it would cause (Chansey, then Starmie and Lapras and so on).

    So why couldn't we at least think and try the metagame without Tauros ? If we want to know if its absence would make the tier better, there is only one way to find out... Even if it sounds like I want to ban it I don't know if I want to, I just think it should be tested. (A quick theory-mon tells me Rhydon would be the go-to choice for replacing that physical power loss, Kanga and Persian could be replacements too, mainly because Chansey would still be the thing to break, but not fearing the possible bull-shit in the back could make our minds so much peaceful)

    I just want to see what are your opinions on this, I will probably host a Tauros-less tournament if people are interested in trying. I don't think RBY is unplayable or anything right now, which conflicts with me trying to fix something that maybe isn't a problem, but if Chansey was tested I don't see why this couldn't be either, at least for science, because to me the influence Tauros has on the tier is lightyears away compared to what a poor BeamBolt Chansey does. We've accepted it, but I'm not sure if it's really healthy to automatically and brainlessly add this pokemon to all of our RBY teams with the same moveset everytime (if you mention Fire Blast or Substitute I'll get you banned) without thinking about what we're actually doing.

    Once again, I'm not asking for a Ban, I'm asking for a discussion because I think we let our most trust-able companion get away with too much sometimes.

    I'll end up with a marcoasd quote:
    Thank you for reading.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
  2. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Well, first of all I appreciate the fact that waters are still moving.

    RBY OU still is in a bad shape as it doesn’t feel less awkward than Ubers by any means.
    It doesn’t hit the “unplayable” threshold, but it doesn’t give you enough time to figure your plan - back in the days, being down a pokemon or two was way less impactful, while nowdays it’s really hard to outmanouver your opponent: the best way I found out is using crazy stuff, like Counter Alakazam. Obviously, those things aren’t reliable in the long run…
    It looks pretty much like a F1 race without overtakings to me (Monte Carlo anyone?).

    Mewbers is already a thing just like Ubers or other tiers; we’re trying to fix OU.

    What if we don’t really want to differ from cartridge? Is there a way?
    I like that part.

    "What if you didn’t have Tauros?"
    You’re right, we don’t know yet. It would kill the king and change the game so much in a scary way – a scientist can’t be scared this easily though.
    It could be worth the effort, and yeah, we’re trying literally everything we can – no reason to dismiss this.

    If you’re asking to ban Tauros, I’m pretty positive that the first team matchup would be:

    Team A: Tauros is just replaced by Kangaskhan (the need for a revenge killer) which happens to miss the balancing effect against Alakazam, Zapdos and Lapras.
    Kangaskhan can be just as stupid (with RNG) as Tauros is, even though Tauros’ Blizzard gives some serious coverage and it outspeeds key opponents...
    Pick your 6th slot, good luck dealing with the bad matchup!

    Team B: Rhydon+Slowbro and stall variants, here we go.

    My prediction is: if both these strategies prove to be viable, we’re very likely to make a good deal. Hoping that those mirror matches (especially Team A, plus a bad 6th slot matchup) won't be too bad.
     
  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Tauros is the only thing that actually bothers me about modern RBY, there was a time (a couple years ago) where I was more concerned about Chansey.

    It's definitely a couple levels below Mewtwo but it doesn't mean it's not broken. Honestly, I don't even think so much that Tauros is broken but the Tauros ditto massively impacts most games, and losing the Tauros ditto can just be so hard to come back from... so I guess maybe Tauros is broken in a way? I think there is a real argument to be had there.



    I think we should keep the seasons as they are and do a suspect test of Tauros. I would vote for a ban right now, and we could do testing and then eventually introduce a parallel season for the new tier once we've found a ruleset we feel is suitably balanced.
     
  4. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    It is pretty disgusting how hard to manage Tauros is. I'm pretty sure that a mon this dominant in a current gen would get quickbanned tbh. I'm not the against the idea of removing it from the tier if we find out Taurosless is healthier. I still hold the belief that chain bans would eventually lead to a better metagame than a single ban can ever lead to, but that's theorycrafting - for now, we've tried most simple options, there is no reason not to try Taurosless.

    I definitely agree with the OP, this sentence in particular:
    I really feel like I don't need to express my opinion on Tauros honestly. We all know what it does, we all know how important Tauros management and anti-Tauros planning are, this is just a matter of what tiering decision do we want to take. And it seems to me like playing Taurosless matches (tournaments or freeplays or whatever else) is a very good start to get an idea on what the new meta would be - tiering decisions will reflect our feelings after all of that is done.

    Perhaps it would be best to shift the focus from "should we suspect Tauros?" to "alright, let's test things out, what is RBY without Tauros?" - I feel like the answer to the first question is a very overwhelming yes, given precedent and all of the other circumstances we're in, and it's the second one we need to answer to figure out where to go next.


    My activity and free time to dedicate to RBY has been decreasing since I started university, but I'll still try to theorycraft, build a bunch, experiment, playtest, post my thoughts and my replays when I can. It's worth trying every possible step to improve the tier and the game we love.

    Personally I'd like a separate topic to start discussing the meta itself as soon as we have enough info/theories to make one. I really don't think the notion of suspecting Tauros will be met with many objections, if any, so we might as well get started.
     
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  5. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I'd rather suspect tauros before theorymonning ... if we remove tauros we should do it because tauros is a problem, not because we prefer the metagame we get by removing it.
     
  6. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    I disagree when you say that Reflect Chansey is not an huge deal, in fact you can only beat the blob with criticals, explosions and pp stalls, with -only- being the operative word, i don't mind playing long games or pp stalling, before the Reflect Normals age there used to be way more Reflect Alakazam, i never had problems about that. I don't want to scare anyone but... pp stalling.. booming and and crits, outside of the others reasons (incredible offensive power) isn't it a bit too similar to Mewtwo's way of dealing? No i'm not saying "Chansey is broken that much", instead just pointing how they both lack of offensive answers, this is what define to me the word broken / unhealthy. Speaking of Tauros now, as i said in the "Make Rby great again" thread (and Peas repeated in this), Tauros used to be a lot more under control, facing Snorlax and by extent Rhydon was at least making it less broken, but let's not forget of Tauros ties, more often than not the alive Tauros was afraid of trying, but now the winners wins the game. I'm up for trying Tauros-less but i'm pretty sure, or at least i think that as for Chansey, Tauros is broken, but his absence would make the tier A LOT worse, here's my biggest fear:
    Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Kangaskhan: 202-238 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
    I will leave my thought of Zapdos for another thread, but for now.. ZAPDOS losing another dealer of the bird would be a disaster, if Zapdos is not considered broken yet most of the merits are of Rhydon and Tauros, not Chansey, you wouldn't revengekill Zapdos with Alakazam or Starmie because their moves are absorbable, Body Slam is not.
    In short Tauros is sadly broken, without a doubt, but banning him wouldn't make (at least for me) the tier better, but just changing the problems. I'm up for testing obviously.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
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  7. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Since my comment got referred to I feel the need to clarify that I don't think RBY as a whole is "bad" or anything like that. I still really enjoy the game and I would be totally fine if things stayed as they are. Having said that, I also stand by my criticisms about Normal types in that post as well. So although I'd be fine if RBY remained as is, I'm inclined to say that removing Tauros would improve the tier.

    Broadly speaking, I agree that this is definitely an idea worth exploring. In fact, I'm in two minds about testing this, because I really want to test it, but testing it before deciding on any action is really backwards as it facilitates scenarios of broken checking broken.

    Either way, I generally agree with the OP and look forward to whatever it is we do in response to this
     
  8. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    Again, no reason not to just get out on the field and try. If Zapdos is the new Tauros, there are at least hard counters (goldon) as well as decent checks (jolteon, even your own zap and probably some others) to mess with.
     
  9. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    Zapdos is not the new Tauros, this is not what i said. However giving him more power (by taking away one of his best answers) would make the tier way more matchup based, if Zapdos-Rhydon-Lapras is not in every game right now is because Zapdos can be beaten without using Jolteon/Rhydon, and Tauros has some merits to take about that.
    Rby is the first and shorter tier (you don't say?), adding matchup factors would be a disgrace.
     
  10. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    Ehh. We're picking matchup issues versus Tauros wars issues. You can outplay a bad match up, you can't outplay a Tauros war (in most cases).
     
  11. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Not really. You'll definitely pay a very high price if your only answers are Chansey and Snorlax (assuming lead/S3+Kangaroo/Lapras) - which are mainly midgame material.
    The very best you can do with that archetype, is trying to mitigate by choosing Jolteon as the lead. Pick Starmie for GolDon and even Zapdos teams, and so on.
    Is that ok? It could be occasionally OK, and it's really depending on how often you're going to face a given pokemon (in this case, Zapdos).
    There are many different ways to go for the sweep (hence builds) with Tauros being banned. It takes years of tournaments to figure usage stats.
    The battlefield is going to have the last word.

    Even if things go well (in the terms of having an healthy metagame) it's going to take a lot of time for things to stabilize to a point where you're safe to assume you have an healthy, better than before metagame: that's why I find irritating any attempt at banning stuff and making irreversible decisions before even figuring out what's going next.
    If we're talking about banning Tauros for the first time ever, it shouldn't effectively take place before a year or whatever we need to feel like we have some clue of what we're getting ourselves into.
     
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  12. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    Oh I absolutely agree. I'm not saying we need to act quick and fast, I'm just saying we should take the initiative and actually start trying things out.
     
  13. Bedschibaer

    Bedschibaer officially retired from bo1 rby Member

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    I honestly can't say that I have too much of a problem with the ~current meta~ or anything. What I am venting and ranting here is also a bit into response for the make rby great again thread.

    I am not quite sure what people see as the problem specifically. I am just going to assume that there is quite a big nostalgia involved too, because that's just how things work. I think there are several things that changed after the body slam discoveries, mostly the fact that we had an influx of newer and very competitive players who have been absolutely working on "solving" the metagame. The reason why I think many people are unhappy with things like reflect chansey is because some players have just figured out the most effective ways of using it in tournaments. As Peasounay said, he has been spamming that shit up and down and with great success, so has marco for quite some time, so have I versus many opponents. The reason why I think it is so successful and also very frustrating for some players is that it takes a lot of patience to play against it, because if the peasounay kind of player gets his way and manages to play passively it needs good play to put pressure on him. When I read things like "I disagree when you say that Reflect Chansey is not an huge deal, in fact you can only beat the blob with criticals, explosions and pp stalls, with -only- being the operative word" that kinda just shows the frustration, but I want to point out that that is not the only way to beat reflect chansey.

    First of all I think there is an inherent problem with thinking in one-on-one matchups. I think I learned that from gsc but basically there is this thing called the matchup chain, which basically means that a stall team in gsc will always have a pokemon that your offensive threat of choice can't kill. Your zapdos will always see raikou, your nidoking will always see suicune, your snorlax will always see skarmory - you name it. If you play out these matchups the way the stall player wants to you will 100% lose. The idea is always to either double attack one wall with several threats, to trade via explosion or to put on pressure with things like status so you can eventually break through. What I'm trying to say here is that there are always more routes to go for in a game. In rby it obviously depends on your team and such and the peasounay style of chansey fetishism basically leads to other last-mon threats being the go-to choice. It also leads to the proactive player (because reflect chansey just tends to play the reactive part once it uses anything that isn't twave) having to often find other ways of attack. I've actually talked about this quite a lot in the past with my approach of amnesia lax because it just wins the long game vs reflect chansey and forces the fetishist to switch, allowing other angles of attack, opening up for strategies that revolve around removing another roadblock and not chansey. One of the players that really does that well is Lusch right now and I think from watching his replays most people here can learn quite alot, since he brings Rhydon a fair bit and tends to attack the opposing team on other angles like their eggy and water and utilizes chansey as a momentum sink rather than an unpassable roadblock. Very likely also one of the reasons why he is so successful after all.
    And the thing about this sort of playstyle is that if it doesn't work out you can still go to the other measurements of beating chansey, which is 1on1 trading via explosion, fishing for a crit with tauros (consider the odds for this one before pushing it off as dumb) or an electric or whatever you are running, going for a freeze, chansey lures, etc. Oh and there are measurements that work against paralyzed reflect chansey in a 1on1 matchup sort of playstyle, and that's slowbro and amnesia lax. 100% outs and those just so happen to be really good pokemon on their own that have other applications too.

    On the point of lax being too good that was brought up in the other thread: Not a good idea at all, considering it is still one of the best measurements you can take against the most hated mon in the tier. The fact that it can run several different sets to good success is also one of the main factors that allows individual playstyles and makes things other than french blob fetishism good choices.

    Ok onto the actual topic of tauros now:
    First of all I'd like to point out that the body slam changes didn't make the issue of tauros ditto frequencies any worse. If anything I think that the impact of the tauros dittos has been alot worse with bslam paras, especially since it brings more variance into the ditto itself, which can lead to even bigger blowouts with even less chance of victory once you lose that certain matchup. If people acknowledge that the frequency and impact of tauros dittos is a problem that should swipe any mechanic nitpicking for the tier off the table anyways (which I think isn't exactly a thing to consider anyways, but let's not burst the boundaries here).

    Now the thing that tauros dittos deciding games on a regular basis is something that is concerning to some degree, I acknowledge that to its fullest and agree partially. I think the reason behind this is also to some extent that people just got better rapidly in the last couple of years and that the "highest level" happens to be pretty broad right now, so the frequency of game-costing mistakes or tradeoffs with bad value for one player has been going down in total, at least that's what I've been observing in my own games and the ones that I watched lately. If many games come down to neutral tradeoffs then the amount of dittos is logically going to rise, at least that makes sense in my head, right? I do not think that like every second game is decided on tauroses, but it did go up in tournaments at least. I might be a bit too out of touch with the game right now to really decide if that's alarming or not.

    On postactively changing past metagames:
    My stance on this is pretty simple: don't! Or at least don't do it unless it is absolutely inevitable. I guess this is just another paraphrasing and emphasis on the point already made of not taking actions without really big time to reflect upon it. The issue with changing tiers on this site is that it alienates us from the general pokemon players in such a huge way. If you ever change our main tier from the main rby tier on showdown the amount of people playing here will plummet. Changing past-gen tiers on smogon and therefor on ps is a fairly unheard of process, especially when it comes to the OU tiers. There is no active council for those, most of the senior staff there couldn't care less, etc. So there is no actual guarantee that what we decide here actually will be implemented outside of this website. I am not opposed to testing things at all, make a tauros suspect meta, let it run for a long time and look at the results and the input from the people, I fully support that, just not a big fan of alienating and splitting the already small communities for oldgens.

    I really just wrote this. Goddammit.
     
  14. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Great post regarding chansey/lax/what the actual issues are. I think undeniably though after the mechanics change, players could no longer hope for their opponent's tauros to at least be paralyzed if the ditto is played. An unparalyzed tauros is significantly more dangerous than a paralyzed one, and it leaves you with a lot more options to handle it.

    I think you might partially misunderstand what banning Tauros might mean Bedschibaer, so let me reiterate it for clarity. If Tauros were banned then RBY 1U as it is would be renamed to RBY 1S, and we would continue to 1) hold seasons 2) provide medals for those seasons 3) have the world championship, but what would change is 1) in PPL & WCoPP, both RBY 1S and the new RBY 1U would have 1 spot each, and 2) the new RBY meta would have its own season, wc, and medals. I just thought I ought to emphasise that to you just so that we're clear that basically creating this new metagame would leave the old metagame intact, just with less representation in team tournaments.
     
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  15. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    I hope going off-topic is not a big deal, but the discussion is here now. I want to deny some of Beds things especially the -some players is that it takes a lot of patience to play against it- speaking for myself at least, i never ever talked of "being boring" as a reason for my ranting, pp stall is a valid way for me. At my beginning there were a lot more Reflect-Alakazam in the last slot, and also when both Chansey used get the para more often, both the things also sometimes lead to pp stallings, i never had problems about that. The problem starts when that x thing (Chansey in this case) has less real answers, you can't even double switch Snorlax into par full-life because unless the full-par happens Chansey simply setup Reflect and force Snorlax on Rest+can switch out (this against Amnesia too). This why i look at Chansey as something a bit too much overwhelming, i forgot about Slowbro yeah he is a great answer too, but alone is not enough to fix the problem.

    I may had caused this misunderstanding with my bad way of talking, if so, well my bad, i'm here to explain now. I'm nostalgic, yes, but not as people describe the nostalgia today, it's not something that blinds from accepting new>old, but real meaning of the word:

    a feeling of pleasure and also slight sadness when you think about things that happened in the past:
    Some people feel nostalgia for their schooldays. (i cped this part, ignore the colours)

    I think the past was better but respect who doesn't, it was in my vision of things more balanced than now, just that. Can we put asides things like "nostalgia is blinding you" or "because you are not comfortable", i'm happy with my ratings and also don't feel like i struggle to play this "new" Rby.
     
  16. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    It looks like the reasoning behind disliking the current state of RBY OU is related with it looking more like GSC than RBY, and that's not even the worst problem.
    The thing I hate the most is that in RBY we only got that *lead*+S4+*filler* formula - you know GSC better than I do, and there's a lot more of diversity there: it looks like it's meant to be like that, whether it's due to mechanics, different stats (special def/atk), a better balance among typings or whatever else, while in RBY things just don't fall into place.

    Is your Snorlax's moveset plus your filler and maaaaybe your (bound to be statused) lead enough to call RBY OU a metagame?

    "Splitting the community" can turn out to be an issue to some extent (I actually supported this point just few months ago, but luckily my gradual taking distance from competitve play helped me seeing it under a different light), but in case players of the highest caliber will be willing to pull some serious effort and come up with some satisfying result, the community will just need to learn to appreciate that.
    The fact is that we all don't agree, which is all good.
    On a final note, Smogon doesn't give a damn about RBY in spite of those "groundbreaking discoveries" (which is an actual sign of a community dying before even splitting) and we're still talking about Smogon on here...
     
  17. Bedschibaer

    Bedschibaer officially retired from bo1 rby Member

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    @marco
    To be fair even before the ~metagame changes~ I have used the framework team in like 90% of all my matches. That's how I know rby and that is how I have always played rby. I guess the main difference between rby and gsc in terms of diversity is that there is just a bigger variety of really viable mons in gsc, leading to different sorts of strategies being possible. Teambuilding in rby is always sort of arbitrary because on top of all the things you come up with in the first place you just want to be using the best pokemon leading to the same team over and over again. I think it's enough to call it a metagame, an utterly fucked one but that has always been the case if you ask me. Not even sure if removing a certain piece changes the fundamentals of this, because if you basically just run lead+s3 and 2 wildcards you didn't exactly reinvent the wheel. But I don't actually know how a metagame like this would turn out, that's why we can and should discuss this after all.

    We talk about smogon because they are the primary source of new players coming into the scene. You don't learn about competitive pokemon nowadays without playing on the main simulator, which is showdown. And that is owned by smogon and will always follow their ruleset, that's why we have to talk about them when it's about changing fundamentals of metagames.

    Troller
    yeah I get your point, might've also been due to the fact that I didn't read into all posts itt too closely ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    The thing about nostalgia isn't directly aimed at someone but more a thing that everyone should keep in mind when talking about things that are in the past. The pre-slam mechanics metagame is years back, if anything I only really remember certain games I've played, but having an accurate big picture of what once was is by now pretty impossible and always distorted. I have also noticed that for me at least rby is the most fun when I'm good at it. Maybe that's why I don't have a problem with the new meta because that's when I put up my best results. Nobody can be objective about something like that so I basically wanted to point out that we shouldn't really consider changing an objective element of the game (the in-game mechanics) in favor of a subjective element.

    (before anyone points out freeze clause here- let's just not unravel this beast for now)

    @piex
    Yeah I am not up to date with all the nomenclature on this website and I actually think most people not too involved with it aren't either. This also plays into the whole alienating and splitting playerbases thing, at least that's how I imagine it would play out. Why would a new player even bother with the metagame the community deemed potentially better when it's not the one promoted on showdown and when it's the one with a harder access for a newcomer. Seems like a solution like that wouldn't even effectively change all too much and just satisfies a niche group's need for terminology and micrometagames. But maybe that's what we want after all
     
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  18. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Lutra used to run Golem + Lapras, Crystal used to drop Exeggutor pretty often, Dragonite was considered a top 10 threat and Victreebel saw some play (Crystal_ himself and me too).
    You might argue that Dre89 didn't win tournaments with his Wrap team, but Cloyster+Victreebel was definitely more viable than today.
    On top of that, leads usage was spread more equally.
    I used to win games with weird teams, like Jolteon/Lapras/Tauros/Snorlax/Victreebel/Venusaur or Victreebel/Golem/Slowbro no Tauros - I didn't like using them in tournaments, but they were good enough.
    And again, when you happened to face a mirror match, the game objectly wasn't this putrid - interactions between normals were different, that is a fact.
    All in all, I think you're right when you say you can't remember correctly how it was.

    Running lead+s3 and 2 wildcards could mean reinventing the wheel in case you'd find something different on the other side: simply a S4 team (with Kangaskhan as new third Normal-type).
    If one team is dedicated to stalling (the famous Jynx/Rest Egg/RestLax/Reflect Chansey/Slowbro/Golem or Lapras) and the other one tries to break the stall, you definitely have something new.
    This matchup isn't happening nowdays.

    That's true and it's big part of the illness. Still, they don't even care about RBY... I can see this being an argument against changing mechs, but banning a pokemon (Tauros) from PP's tiers is easier done than said.


    It's been 3 years, it's still countable - no kind of "once upon a time".
    FC is subjective, but at the end of the day tiers themselves are too. Almost anything other than linking two GBs is subjective - we've been passed this kind of RBY OU, which doesn't mean it should be this way forever.
    Take a look at sports in general - rulings are meant to change when something new breaks them.

    This could be true, but the opposite possibly is even more: I'm a new player, I'll join the new tier because the players I'll be against won't have years of experience over me. Ask Troller what's been like to be a world-class player who couldn't play RBY OU on his national team for a long while.
    Most new players won't just care about RBY, there's no salvation from getting lawnmowed by the marketing machine. It's sad, but we're doing it for ourselves.
     

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