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Community WCoPP: Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'World Cup of Pokémon Perfect' started by Disaster Area, Mar 14, 2017.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    There is a tournament format I want to bring PP, roughly speaking, which is that of a world cup format. Smogon's WCoP and PO's POWC are both examples of this, although they have their differences. WCoPP stands for World Cup of Pokemon Perfect and would use this symbol for the medal given to the winners: [​IMG]

    Format-wise, roughly what I have in mind is that the tiers should be the 1U from each generation, so
    RBY / GSC / ADV / HGSS / BW / ORAS / SM 1U.
    Currently, RBY, GSC, ADV, and HGSS are ticking along fine, so the other three tiers are the ones I want to talk about and discuss my plans in terms of making them tournament-ready.

    BW 1U is yet to be formed. Currently Ortheore is hosting a BW Ubers tournament which will surely help him and others get a bit more of a feel for the game. Since PPL is soon to be ongoing, I want to use the additional forum activity to get more discussion going and to actually decide upon a starting point for BW 1U. I want discussion and then I want to do a vote soon after. Then we can get BW 1U Seasons going at the start at the time of RBY Season 12 / GSC Season 10 / ADV Season 4 / HGSS Season 2.

    ORAS 1U is decided upon, stable, and balanced. Unfortunately there isn't much of a playerbase for it currently. With the knowledge that WCoPP is coming up however, maybe you can find people from your country willing to pick it up or with some experience who can begin playing it again. I'll hold a minitour of it before WCoPP. In addition, I'll be trying to get the majority of the analysis work done for it to make it easier for players who need to to get into it.

    SM 1U is decided upon but is untested. There's some potential suspects [Kyogre, Zygarde-C, Lunala stick out the most]. I have a couple of people interested in helping test it though [Outrage (Lord Outrage on Smogon) is down for it, ThrashNinjax is too, and The Trap God said he would help test it after SPL and the Ubers Seasonal on Smogon] but we need more people involved to get this moving, which hopefully can happen. I'll keep an eye on how this unfolds but the plan is for it to be tournament-ready for when we want to have WCoPP.

    Another thing to consider is the date of it. I think it would be best to have it in the early Autumn, maybe open signups in September. Over the summer we can have International League in RBY and ADV (a separate, nationality based tournament) and hopefully WCoPP can end before the World Championships in each of the respective seasons is underway, or at least is only into the early rounds.

    How we do the matchups of teams etc. is a bit more of an open question. Smogon and PO do very different things, and I'm not sure what we want to do; partially, it depends on the number of teams signing up. I want to hear people's thoughts: my instinct is to do something closer to PO's style, with teams matching up versus eachother PPL-style and then having elimination rounds to close it off. WCOP's shorter timespan for the first round however of 3 weeks is very appealing. Should we emulate the format of either or does someone have their own novel idea for how we should do it?
     
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  2. melle2402

    melle2402 Host Emeritus

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    I think the PO style is better. Also I think we shouldn't just play 1U. Maybe tiers like 2U or 1P as well
     
  3. Ron

    Ron Member

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    I really like this idea, looking forward to it!
    Also I think that PO's style is slightly better, but I also like the SWC one
     
  4. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Hugo (Hugo Barrington on Smogon) also says he's down for SM 1U testing :D
     
  5. eden's embrace

    eden's embrace end. Host Emeritus

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    This looks exciting, how many teams are you considering doing?
     
  6. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    As many as people make!~
     
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  7. Contact

    Contact Under The Sea Member

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    What about me? smh.
     
  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I said there isn't much not that there is no. But like noone is actively playing it right now really or at least often
     
  9. Contact

    Contact Under The Sea Member

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    Thats because the seasons are gone, i'm sure people would play it if there were active tours for it.
     
  10. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    We'll see, but the last season ended pretty dead. I can try and get some tours running for it again some time though if you think it's a good idea~
     
  11. Contact

    Contact Under The Sea Member

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    Yeah, that sounds great. At least give it a shot, and if I'm wrong you can obviously stop doing them.
     
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  12. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Discord - I made a discord chat for those who want to help test SM 1U
     
  13. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Member

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    I strongly prefer the round robin every team plays every team once structure as opposed to the randomly put teams in pools and and play only opponents within those pools structure. Seems better- less luck of the draw with pairings, more fair for all as it's an equal opportunity and more opportunities to enjoy the event and play against all of the competition as opposed to just a fraction of it.

    I'd be interested in managing US East, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it. :)
     
  14. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    The issue is if we have something like 16 teams (which is how many WCoP has) then that will take a quarter of a year just to get through the first round.
     
  15. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Member

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    If we truly have that many, then yes, I agree, and we need to do it differently. But I don't think we'll have that many and if we do it's a damn good problem to have. :)
     
  16. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Alright well there's nothing wrong with planning to handle it with smaller or larger amounts. If we have like 10 or fewer teams then it works that way, if we have more we need to do something different probably.
     
  17. Conni

    Conni turn your magic on Member

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    I'm looking very forward to this because World Cups are always fun and competitive because its a battle between nationalities. Also would it rather be PPWC, or WCOPP, I personally don't mind both but it could be something to consider?
     
  18. dom

    dom Member

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    seems cool. i myself think with ppl the smog wcop sounds a bit more ideal. also, how's the us going to be split up? team usa seems rlllly op.
     
  19. melle2402

    melle2402 Host Emeritus

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    Are you really aiming 16 teams Disaster Area? That needs 200-250 people then. I dont think pp can get this amount of player atm.
    I think 8 (worst case) -12 are realistic and then split them in 2 groups. where the first ones goes straight to semis and the 2nd place of group A fight the 3rd place of group B and visa versa. Or the 2nd goes straight to semis as well
     
  20. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I mean if the teams are of size 7-10 players then that's 7-10 * 16 = 112-160. That's a bit more than we've got currently in PPL signups, but tournaments like this tend to bring in additional users from off of site. I'm not necessarily saying I'm even aiming for it, I'm just saying judging from PO / Smogon those sorts of numbers are possible.

    I haven't thought yet about how to split up the US, does anyone have any suggestions?
     
  21. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Member

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    Gotta consider subs and inactive players as well so realistically it'd be 9 or 10 people, plus managers, per team. 8-10 teams is probably the best we'd realistically do. MAYBE 12 under absolute best circumstances.

    But why even guess at it? We don't have to do that. We can simply plan for it both ways. We can open signups (not now obviously) and simply put a contingency that if we have enough players for 11 or fewer teams we'll do it one way and if we have enough for 12 or more we'll do it the other way. Simple enough.
     
  22. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Yeah I know, exactly. So if we do have more than say 12 teams, what do we do?
     
  23. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Member

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    Probably HAS to be randomized pools. Let's say, hypothetically, 14 teams. In that case it'd be 2 pools of 7 teams, every team plays every other team in their pool once (so in this example that would mean six weeks of regular season play) and then top 4 teams from each pool go into the playoffs. Expanding on that further, I'd say the 1 seed from Pool A should face the 4 seed from Pool B, the 2 seed from Pool A vs the 3 seed from Pool B, etc.

    So in this example, let's say the top 4 teams in the pools end up as follows-

    Pool A-
    1. France
    2. US East
    3. Germany
    4. South America

    Pool B-
    1. US West
    2. Australia
    3. EU West
    4. Asia East

    So the pairings would be

    A1. France vs B4. Asia East
    A2. US East vs B3. EU West
    A3. Germany vs B2. Australia
    A4. South America vs B1. US West

    And of course France and US West would be on opposite sides of the bracket (because they were the number 1 seed in their respective pools) and could not possibly face each other until the finals.
     
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  24. Mister Tim

    Mister Tim The most handsome man on PP Season Host

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    I don't think that we have grown enough for this format of tours. Mb for this year international league is the best option
     
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  25. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I think we'll be big enough in 6 months, and these sorts of tournaments tend to bring new players in too.
     
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  26. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Member

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    Here's hoping.
     
  27. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Good part of Team Italy would be up for this. I think we have to use tournaments like this in order to get bigger, instead of hoping to get bigger enough to host the tournament.
     
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  28. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Member

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    Join our Team Meanie Dratini Discord :)
     
  29. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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  30. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Member

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    My biggest question/concern is eligibility. How is it determined and how is it enforced? What prevents me from assembling the nastiest possible team I can find with guys from NA, Brazil, Spain, etc? Without restrictions it's really just an all star team tour and the World Cup part of it means nothing.
     
  31. eden's embrace

    eden's embrace end. Host Emeritus

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    As long as your restrictions are sensible, and you trust yourself, to not let any underhanded stuff go on(looking at you wcop) I'm fine with whatever you decide.
     
  32. Stockings

    Stockings Mum stole me darts Member

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    How many slots per tier? 3 adv pls x
     
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  33. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    The first restriction is common sense. If people are clearly signing up for a team they're not eligible for (we know eachother quite well it's not hard to spot in a lot of cases) then obviously that's disallowed. If someone can show me how to find out the location where an IP is from, then we can use some level of IP restriction.

    I'm fine with people playing for a team their IP doesnt say they're eligible for so long as they provide a more detailed explanation. Obviously I can't stop people really dedicated to cheating, it's a Pokemon Tournament overall and we won't have people posting sensitive information online. There has to be some level of trust in this.

    In addition there will be a team lock: if you played on a team in one year you can't change team next year unless the previous team disappeared or the team you are joining is new that year.

    as i stated in the OP, one of each 1U per team.

    In addition, I'll be making it a minimum of 1 substitute, and a maximum of 4, per team. So teams will be 8-11 members.
     
  34. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    How should we divvy up the United States teams?
     
  35. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Member

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    I get first dibs of any US players I want and then some lesser manager picks from my rejects.
     
  36. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    that's not very helpful ...
     
  37. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Member

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    Neither are women. Your point?

    If you want an actual answer either US East/Central/West, or North/South, or simply no restrictions on US at all as in if you live in the US you can be on a US team, period, and there will be multiple US teams.
     
  38. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    well we can allow multiple teams but due to the size of the US I'd like to split it up.

    If other people have ideas i'm open to hearing them
     
  39. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    East, West, Central is probably the easiest way to do it.
     
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  40. Mister Tim

    Mister Tim The most handsome man on PP Season Host

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    ofc we can split up US teams by timezone or states, also we can have Team Europe
     
  41. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Ok if we go East / West / Central, what states are those?
     
  42. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    East: Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, DC, Delaware, Maryland, Pennsylvania, New York, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine.

    West: Washington, Oregon, California, Idaho, Nevada, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and I guess Hawaii and Alaska too.

    Central: North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Tennessee, Missouri, Kentucky, Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota.

    would be my guess.
     
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  43. Genesis7

    Genesis7 Host Emeritus

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    I think that 2 slots per "relic tier"; RBY, GSC, ADV, HGSS, would be the best option. SM, ORAS, and BW have next to no playerbase on Pokemon Perfect, I suppose BW could work assuming that we're using smogon's BW OU but PPs versions of ORAS and SM are alien to all but a handful of people who played ORAS on here in 2016.
     
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  44. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Member

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    I'd strongly prefer an ODD number of total tiers to avoid ties between teams.

    For example

    2x RBY
    2x GSC
    2x ADV
    2x DPP
    1x BW
    1x ORAS
    1x SUMO

    Equals 11
     
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  45. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Member

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    Also, I think a situation will come up where some players live in countries/areas that don't have enough of a playerbase to support a full team. LinearCurve for example is Australian. If Australia doesn't end up fielding a team, how are players like this handled? You COULD just throw him into eligibility for whatever existing team is geographically closest to him- in this case probably Japan or China- but that seems very flawed to me. I don't view Linear, an Australian, as any more Japanese than he is French or British or Brazilian or whatever. He's simply none of those things. Instead, I'd propose players like that, which there should only be a small handful of, get thrown into a special "ringer" or "free agent" category and can join any team they'd like. However, to prevent abuse, teams should be hard capped at one or two at absolute most depending on team size of these players.
     
  46. deluks917

    deluks917 Host Emeritus

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    Why not have an interest check BEFORE we decide how to allocate team slots. It might be better to get data on who wants to play and what country/region they are from before we make decisions.

    We could also analyze the data from Smogon's WCOP. How many people from each region signed up?
     
  47. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    11 tiers is too many, I think. Especially 2x GSC...

    Oppose free agents.

    Could have an 'International' team for players who aren't eligible for any other teams.

     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
  48. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Member

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    I thought about the international team idea too but time zones would be all over the place. I'm not convinced that's the best solution.

    If 11 tiers is too many I can see simply 1 of each OU, which is 7 total. I'm just partial to an odd number. I hate ties.
     
  49. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I think it can work, it's a sensible compromise.
    1 of each 1U is what we're gonna do.
     
  50. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    East: Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, DC, Delaware, Maryland, Pennsylvania, New York, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine.

    West: Washington, Oregon, California, Idaho, Nevada, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, Hawaii, Alaska.

    Central: North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Tennessee, Missouri, Kentucky, Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota, Texas, Louisiana.

    will be using this for US teams...moved Texas and Louisiana from West to Central. That all good to everyone?
     
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