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HGSS OU (OverUsed) Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by ThrashNinjax, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    Welcome to the HGSS 1U Viability Ranking Thread! In case you're not familiar with the concept, we place Pokémon in certain ranks here, based on their impact on the tier as well as their general viability in the tier. This is an excellent help while teambuilding and it serves as a general outline of the tier. Furthermore it is used in our formation of the tier below.

    If you feel that a Pokémon is misplaced, feel free to make a post about it - that's what this thread is for. As long as you are reasonably sensible and courteous this thread should run smoothly.

    Pokémon are sorted into the respective categories based on how well they perform their roles. Within each ranking Pokemon are listed by their individual viability.

    S Rank

    These Pokémon are the most effective Pokémon in the metagame. Their offensive and defensive prowess, as well as versatility, and ability to fulfil a variety of important roles lend themselves to this.

    upload_2017-12-28_13-15-28.png Jirachi
    [​IMG] Heatran
    [​IMG] Tyranitar
    [​IMG] Starmie

    A Rank

    These Pokemon perform significant roles in the metagame, and perform them very well, however they are not the most dominating forces.

    A+

    [​IMG] Zapdos
    [​IMG] Rotom-A
    [​IMG] Breloom
    [​IMG] Infernape
    [​IMG] Scizor
    [​IMG] Dragonite
    [​IMG] Gengar
    [​IMG] Skarmory

    A

    [​IMG] Lucario
    [​IMG] Gyarados
    [​IMG] Flygon
    [​IMG] Hippowdon
    [​IMG]Shaymin
    [​IMG] Swampert
    [​IMG] Metagross
    [​IMG] Bronzong
    [​IMG] Clefable
    [​IMG] Suicune
    [​IMG] Kingdra
    [​IMG]Azelf
    [​IMG] Blissey

    A-

    [​IMG] Aerodactyl
    Gliscor
    [​IMG] Machamp
    [​IMG] Empoleon
    [​IMG] Roserade
    [​IMG] Cresselia
    [​IMG] Nidoqueen

    B Rank

    These Pokemon are strong choices in the metagame, but perform less important roles or are less consistent than Pokémon in the Rank above. They have larger flaws than Pokémon in above ranks, or face greater competition from similar Pokemon, reducing their usefulness.

    B+

    [​IMG] Magnezone
    [​IMG] Forretress
    [​IMG] Celebi
    [​IMG] Mamoswine
    [​IMG] Abomasnow
    [​IMG] Jolteon
    [​IMG] Crobat

    B

    [​IMG] Dugtrio
    [​IMG] Raikou
    [​IMG] Venusaur
    [​IMG] Milotic
    [​IMG] Uxie
    [​IMG] Quagsire

    B-

    [​IMG] Weavile
    [​IMG] Togekiss
    [​IMG] Vaporeon
    [​IMG] Gastrodon
    [​IMG] Cradily
    [​IMG] Snorlax
    [​IMG] Tentacruel
    [​IMG] Spiritomb
    [​IMG] Heracross
    [​IMG] Gallade

    C Rank

    These Pokemon are more infrequent sights in the metagame, particularly in top level matches, but are nevertheless viable Pokemon. They are less effective in the metagame than Pokémon in above ranks, but are effective with proper support.

    C+

    [​IMG] Rhyperior
    [​IMG] Steelix
    [​IMG] Donphan
    [​IMG] Hitmontop
    [​IMG] Slowbro
    [​IMG] Slowking
    [​IMG] Staraptor

    C

    [​IMG] Moltres
    [​IMG] Mesprit
    [​IMG] Feraligatr
    [​IMG] Toxicroak
    [​IMG] Yanmega
    [​IMG] Sceptile
    [​IMG] Hariyama
    [​IMG] Smeargle
    [​IMG] Qwilfish
    [​IMG] Kabutops

    C-

    [​IMG] Medicham
    [​IMG] Lanturn
    [​IMG] Registeel
    [​IMG] Ludicolo
    [​IMG] Magneton
    [​IMG] Walrein
    [​IMG] Aggron
    [​IMG] Azumarill
    [​IMG] Mismagius
    [​IMG] Drapion
    [​IMG] Skuntank
    [​IMG] Cloyster
    [​IMG] Alakazam
    [​IMG] Honchkrow
    [​IMG] Magmortar

    Post away!
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  2. deluks917

    deluks917 Season Host

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    In my opinion Breloom should be the top mon in A+. Sub-Punch Breloom is by far the strongest breaker in the tier and single-handedly keeps people from spamming stall teams. Many mus vs stall are decided by how much havoc breloom can cause before he spends his spore. You commonly see people leave in swampert vs breloom hoping to get swampert slept. Of course sometimes they get their pert killed for free and breloom comes back later! Super-power/Mach Punch loom is still strong against stall but also provides much needed priority to handle threats such as DDtar.

    Breloom is also terrifying in the offense mirror. One of the easiest ways to win is to get to a evenish situation that is around 4vs4 and get in breloom safely. Breloom will then sleep one one of their remaining mons and cripple another with focus punch or superpower. This will leave them with something like '2.5' pokemon left, which usually isn't enough to win the lategame.

    Breloom can cause otherwise amazing pokemon such as hippowdon and swampert to feel like liabilities. Breloom is one of the most reliable ways to answer support clefable. Even very offensive teams have trouble not letting breloom set up since it only needs a single turn. In my experience you really need a relatively agressive team with a lum berry user in order to really limit breloom's effectiveness.

    Breloom is completely metagame warping. Perhaps the metagame will adjust and teams will switch to things like aerial ace dugtrio, aerial ace gliscor and higher amounts of lum berry dnite. But for now Breloom is the number one way to add offense to your teams.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  3. hyogafodex

    hyogafodex Member

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    agreeing with deluks on breloom rising up on the a+, although im not sure if it should be over zap due to it versatility (it has a ton of great sets, while breloom has 2, with the others such as scarf or seed being way less efecitve)
    i also think that uxie should move up to b-/b it is a great lead on bulky offenses, as it can easily put rocks on many mus, and rarely losing momentum due to uturn. it is also an good switch to some scary offensive threats, such as breloom and infernape. screens sets are also p good, and prolly is one of the best screeners on the tier, beign way better than the rest of the c+ mons imo
     
  4. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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  5. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    Empoleon and Kingdra (to A) are much better than Suicune (to A-) in dpp probably they should swap the positions.
    Skarmory (to A-) is not an A+ pokémon there, the tier is pretty hostile to it and it is not very used at all.
    Azelf and Gliscor (A- for both) are as well too high there, (Azelf especially).
    Clefable is really underated, that pokémon is the demon himself and deserves A+ at least.
    Blissey is the fodder of some many things, Clefable is usually the special sponge of choice (A-).
    Bronzong is a fantastic support and troom setter if needed, A.
    Infernape might be worth discussing for the S, the cb moveset is the strongest wallbreaker around paired with pursuit for Starmie, a big pain in the ass and might run also Scarf/Mixed Orb/Nasty Plot as well.
    Dragonite too, his Mixed Orb is as far as i know counterless and it also has so many options... DD/cb are pretty strong too.
    Dugtrio (A-) in B is probably the most underated thing of the list, he sucks as poké i agree but i have never seen (besides stalls) a dpp game without both Heatran and Tyranitar both s ranked, and Dugtrio just kills both, Dugtrio+Cresselia teams are really strong.
    Weavile just like Dugtrio is underated, he traps Starmie, Gengar and Rotom locked to Shadow Ball, you can save your Tyranitar slot while also not giving Flygon momentum. In fact Ice Shard just blocks the opponent from Outraging.
    Uxie is a very good and bulky SR setter+memento support, Crap+ rank is not his place, B+ is

    I really don't feel like making wall of text but i'm pretty sure of what i said
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
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  6. christos21

    christos21 Be the change Member

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    It is really nice to see some activity in DPP ! Below are some changes I would suggest :
    • Breloom -> S : Breloom is an absolute monster. It is probably the best pokemon at gaining momentum (Jirachi also a candidate for this role). What is really impressive about Breloom is that despite being quite predictable, it is no less of a threat. Breloom centralises the metagame at the moment and is one of the main reasons for the fall of full stall.
    • Kingdra -> A+ : This mon is really, really good. Excellent typing, very versatile and one of the best lategame mons of the metagame.
    • Bronzong -> A : Bronzong is very good at everything it can do, whether this is tanking or sweeping under trick room. The offensive trick room set in particular is really good late game vs the common offensive builds at the moment.
    • Clefable -> A : Clefable is the second best special sponge of DPP behind Blissey. It can also sweep with CM and it is not as much of a fodder as Blissey, so it deserves the A rank in my opinion. If it weren't for Breloom and Infernape, it would be an A+ but those two are everywhere at the moment.
    • Shaymin -> A- : I find Shaymin quite underwhelming and if it wasn't for its leech seed set, it would be a B+ mon in my opinion.
    • Gliscor -> A- : I also find Gliscor underwhelming, mainly due to its average movepool. Similarly to Shaymin, if it wasn't for its stallbreaker set, it would be B+ in my opinion.
    • Magnezone -> A- : Magnezone is definetely not the best pokemon overall. However, its ability to trap steels is absolutely vital for some teams and using it effectively can be the difference between winning or losing.
    • Cresselia -> A- : Cresselia requires a lot of support to work effectively but it is really worth it in my opinion. Once Tyranitar and Heatran are gone, few mons can stop Cresselia from sweeping with Calm Mind. Most of them are not what you would call staples of the DPP metagame, which makes things even better. A really underrated mon and a personal favourite <3
     
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  7. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Fixed this up and tweaked the format a little in other ways :)
     
  8. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    Oh hey I'm back with early changes

    I can see a lot of support for Loom / Uxie moving up. Clef, Cress, Zong, Kingdra, Gliscor there's some consensus for as well. I still think the electrics (Zap / Rotom) are the kings of A+ but I reordered the rank, moved skarm to the bottom and Loom to right below Rotom. Uxie's ensconsed in B, moved Gliscor down right under Aero and the other four mons are all in A now.

    I want some more opinions on Mag / Weav / Dugtrio going up before I decide, the three are very good I agree but I'm not sure if they're that good because there are definitely matchups where they become deadweight or need proper play to get anything out of them. Skarmory has some issues but it still spikes and shuts down a lot of things on its lonesome, and it's definitely A+ imo, ditto Shaymin and A.

    Discussion points:
    Nape / Loom for S?
    Where do Clefable / Cresselia rank exactly to you guys?

    Glad to see this much interest right off the bat btw.
     
  9. hyogafodex

    hyogafodex Member

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    i think cresselia should be b+. indeed it is a p good mon and can be devasting with proper support to wear down its checks, but it isnt autosucifient, as it needs 3 out of 4 srank mons out of the way to sweep, being weak to trick and not having a good way of recovering hp, which forces it to rest, what also makes it beatable by applying offensive pressure and forcing it to rest.

    dugtrio should move up to b+, it can trap many important mons and it has a somewhat big movepool, which enables u to use it to trap some specific threats (using screech lo/reversal to blissey/clefable, aerial ace to loom) making it a great support for many mons/playstiles (cresselia, agilizap, rain teams in general)

    magnezone should stay in b+ imo, it is great with dragons and basically anything that struggles to get past steels, but with brozong being popular atm it will basically trap scizor, skarm and empoleon if it hasnt used agility(also luke if it is scarf), having a somewhat limited niche to justify a-

    weavile should stay in b- imo, it has a niche being a faster pusuiter than ttar and scizor without needing scarf, but it cant switch into anything it is intended to trap, besided being way to easy to check and gives easy momentum to some of the best offensive mons on the tier, like meta, scizor and jirachi, besides being way too easy to check (zong, skarm and swampert takes 0 from anything it tries) so it is a rly high risk mon to use, and despite having a niche, it is way too unconsistent to rise imo.

    i dont see loom and nape as s ranks. if u see the s rank mons, they're all great, having great defensive and offensive utility(starmie a bit less,despite being a bit hard to switch into, but it is by far the best spinner in the tier, what justify the s rank imo). loom and nape are two fo the most dangerous ofensive mons, but both have problems that the s rank mons dont. nape is rly frail, needing uturn support to get in the field (the only things that infernape can switch into are bulky sd zor lacking superpower and weavile lacking low kick) or using smthng like a locked pursuit. It also has the problem of being quite easy to wear down just by sr + sand, specially if it is lo, as it taks 27% of life in one turn, making it not rly reliable in a bit longer match. band/scarf sets doesnt lose the lo hp, but are a bit too predict reliant to justify a rise to s, specially the scarf set, that has a hard time breaking some walls, so i dont see nape moving up even though it is a great offensive meta shaping mon.

    loom is one of the best offensive mons in the tier, and it is a lot more reliable than nape on a match where ur opp will be stacking hazards due to its ability, but i see it a bit way too one sided to be srank, it is completly predictable (if it is a lead it will be scarf, using it midgame it is either subpunch or superpower mach punch, other sets are barely used) and both have similar checks, so i dont think that it is s material, given it isnt as good as the s rank mons.

    im not sure about clefable, ig it is fine on a tho.

    the a rank positioning should be reformulated ig, luke>gyara>flygon is fine , but after that the order shoukd be swamp-metagross-brozong-clefable-kingdra-hippowdon-suicune-shaymin-azelf-blissey imo.

    i also think that empoleon, forretress and venusaur should move down, empoleon is way too unconsistent and rly slow(it doesnt outspeed most scarfers after agility), being a bit hard to justify using it instead of other special water ranked higher. b+ is the best rank for he imo. forretress is kinda shitty atm, doesnt spin properly as it struggles to find ways to do so(easily spinblocked and doesnt get momentum x most of the attackers) it should be b- or c+ imo. venusaur also should move down, it is rly hard to justify using it over roserade, bc although it is a bit better on checking waters, the lack of hazards makes his use a bit unjustified, specially bc if u wanna a hard check to waters quag is better overall, being its only niche leech seed, being worse than the rest of b, b- or c+ would be a better place for him imo.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  10. deluks917

    deluks917 Season Host

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    Some Quick Points:

    -- Nape is not S-rank. Nape gets worn down very fast from hazards. Its nowhere near as good a breaker as Breloom. Scarf/LO/Band are all good sets but Ape should stay in A+.

    -- Smeargle is way too low. Lead smeargle is still a good lead, especially since lots of Machamp now run sash and Metagross run Occa. If the opponent leads something like Swampert the Smeargle user is off to a huge lead. Smeargle remains a viable way to get off multiple hazards vs defensive teams. I would put smeargle in C+ or B-. Its better than some B- mons like spiritomb.

    -- hyogafodex Magnezone can trap Bronzong reliably if you run magnet rise

    -- I think Clefable is probably A+. Clef has replaced Blissey on a ton of defensive teams. SR clefable is also a nice pokemon on balanced squads (I use Band-Gyarados, SR-Clef, Breloom, LO-Gengar, Heatran, Scarf-Gon alot to good results). The CM set doesn't see a ton of play but its almost unbeatable vs stall. There was a match last PPL where me and PDC both brought CM-fable and it was clear on turn 15 the game was going to end in a fable cm-war.

    -- Cresselia is probably B+. Dugtrio + Rain Dance User + Cresselia has seen success in big events. Its extremely hard for offense to break cress. CM + 3 attacks cress is also strong and requires much less support.
     
  11. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    I don't like the "hazards" thing, Tyranitar has the same hazards damage of Infernape, but still belong to S, he is also way more weak to them because Infernape can still speed up a lot of things to attack even with low hp, unlike Tyranitar.
    What i mean is: every offensive recoveryless pokémon gets worn down fast by hazards, i would agree if we were talking of Moltres or Gyarados but we are not.
     
  12. christos21

    christos21 Be the change Member

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    Infernape can also take recoil damage from Flare Blitz and sandstorm, which is often the case considering that Physical Infernape is the most common Infernape set and how common Tyranitar is. However, despite getting worn down quite easily, Infernape is still a strong candidate for the S Rank. That's because Infernape's selling point is not its bulk but its raw breaking power, great offensive movepool and unpredictability. Infernape is one of the few pokemon in the tier, if not the only one, that has (almost) no full counters. Each Infernape set has its own counters, but there is not a single mon that counters all of them. This means that the only way to beat Infernape is to play around it. In my opinion, both Infernape and Breloom belong to the bottom of the S Rank. At this point, I would like to say that I think there should be a variation of the S Rank as well. This is how I would order the S Rank at the moment:

    S+
    - Jirachi
    S
    - Tyranitar
    - Heatran
    S-
    - Starmie
    - Breloom
    - Infernape
     
  13. autumn leaves

    autumn leaves Member

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    breloom is amazing yes and moving it ahead of rotom is fine but not zapdos. I could see the arguments for it (and ape) but I think zap is just so goddamn good. it's neck-and-neck but I think zap/loom is the way to go. zapdos destroys so much without even trying

    uxie is great, I agree

    I don't think emp/dra should switch with cune, maybe just move emp/dra up but cune shouldn't drop. I get why it seems more flawed but it's a terrific pokemon and deserves its current place

    I understand why skarm "feels" like it's not worthy of A+ since we're used to it being adv-level dominant but I assure you it absolutely needs to remain highly ranked, A- is a crime. at the absolute worst, top of A (ie just one place down). I can get behind azelf and gliscor going down there though despite how tremendous I think they are

    maybe A could be rearranged further so that clef is higher but A+ would be a bit much I think

    zong deserves A yeah

    infernape should not be S. getting hit by sandstorm without recovering (zap has lefties/roost) and either being on top of that choiced or life orb (ebelt is good but can struggle against pokemon like nidoqueen and zapdos) really gets in the way of it. plus, it is seriously frail. not that it isn't one of the definitive threats, it is, and it's a terror to any team, but 3rd highest A+ is fine for it (so it'd be zapdos/breloom/infernape/rotom (who needs to be up there but is def more flawed than the others. still ahead of what's 5th and below though)). that is still a Really high ranking.

    dragonite is certainly not S either. great, great pokemon, no doubt about it, but his speed isn't great and we all know how much sr sucks for him, lo/sand blah blah blah even with roost it sucks (espeed is really important too). mixed does have counters btw, spdef hippo and he can really struggle with spdef rachi/zong. not to make him sound shitty, because I think he's awesome, but he isn't S. speaking of him though, I think he and gengar could potentially move ahead of scizor in A+ (not a knock against sciz)

    dugtrio/cress shit does not deserve to be higher than B as that rank is what describes what they are perfectly (effective but niche, not top-tier consistent)

    zone should go to the bottom of a- but no higher, thats very much his place though

    weavile is fine in b-, I get his great properties but do not underestimate his incredible frailty, occasional lack of power, 4mss and potential for really bad matchups

    empoleon is good where it is too, variants of lead/agil/utility are all really good and more consistent than the b+ gang

    forry is in a really bad place outside of, like, 2-3 teams. personally I can think of several others he'd be good on but there is no denying how hard he is to work with. potentially devastating if in the right place and played well with the right set, though. I think low/bottom B is fair

    smear could move up but you'd have to rearrange C+ and C because I think feraligatr/moltres/maybe even mesprit are all better than it (and raptor/slow twins too, fond as I may be of them)

    minor: I think shaymin, metagross, bronzong, clefable, swampert, kingdra (in roughly that order) should move ahead of hippowdon in A (not a knock against hippo). also, tentacruel should be near or at the top of b-
     
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  14. peach_nair

    peach_nair Member

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    Where's Umbreon? from not on the list --> B- for trap passing
     
  15. christos21

    christos21 Be the change Member

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    I think it's not listed because baton pass+speed boost is illegal on pp's hgss,which pretty much ruins these kind of teams and therefore umbreon's viability.
     
  16. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    y, peach_nair, bp + speed boost is illegal so umb's niche is nonexistent here. #deletecheese

    Anyways I'll be making an update post sometime soon but I wanted to share my thoughts:

    I think an S- Rank should be formed because I think that though everyone agrees that Loom / Nape are not S their offensive threat and the defensive niches they hold puts them significantly above the rest of A+, also Zap and Rotom, maybe Starmie would fall into this rank too (sidenote Zap is definitely better than Nape / Loom, the PhysDef set is nearly impossible to break while it rains tbolts down on things, can swing a lot of different ways and it's very effective).

    Zong and Clef are A, I'm set on that bit. The where is the question, and I'm thinking they slot into the lower end. Also Hippo is probably going to go down because I'm not liking it too much atm, but again, where. Shaymin stays A btw. I'm leaning towards Zelf and Gliscor going a bit down but I want to hear some more opinions on that.

    Think Cress has so much potential to devastate that it should be reasonably high, although probably not A-...I think B+ is fair. Dug can be very terrifying but it's also bait for some annoying things and has consistency issues (read: sash), I'll see about it though. Weavile falls into a similar vein, it cuts through some very common stuff but being forced out by fighters gyara cune type stuff kinda blows.

    I think Magnezone fits into A-, it's really effective as a trapper and as an offensive piece via endcustap. Forretress on the other hand is kinda struggling in this meta, and it will probably drop to reflect that. I'll think a bit about smeargle - I don't use him a ton but I can see how he might do well in this metagame.
     
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