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  3. Tiers

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RBY UU / 2U (UnderUsed) Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Ortheore, Oct 8, 2017.

  1. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Welcome to the RBY 2U Viability Ranking Thread! In case you're not familiar with the concept, we place Pokémon in certain ranks here, based on their impact on the tier as well as their general viability in the tier. This can be an excellent help while teambuilding and it serves as a general outline of the tier.

    If you feel that a Pokémon is misplaced, feel free to make a post about it - that's what this thread is for. As long as you are reasonably sensible and courteous this thread should run smoothly.

    Pokémon are sorted into the respective categories based on how well they perform their roles. Within each ranking Pokemon are listed alphabetically to avoid overcomplication.

    ---

    Important note:

    The decision to decide on what is considered a member of the tier (i.e. banned from all tiers below it) may involve the viability rankings (e.g. everything B and above 2U, everything D and below not 2U, everything C up for discussion).

    Pokemon Perfect's Tiers


    Broken Rank

    These are Pokemon that are banned from the tier for being too good in some sense.

    None. Moltres and Articuno were banned in 2U-L17, but are no longer banned

    S Rank

    These are the top Pokemon of the tier, that you should put on most serious teams that you create. These Pokemon excel at their roles in the tier to such a point that they are dominating forces.

    [​IMG] Hypno - Analysis*
    [​IMG] Tentacruel - Analysis

    A Rank

    These Pokemon are exceptional at their roles, performing significant roles in the metagame, however they are not dominating forces.

    [​IMG] Articuno
    [​IMG]Dragonite
    [​IMG] Dugtrio
    [​IMG] Electabuzz
    [​IMG] Kadabra - Analysis*
    [​IMG] Kangaskhan - Analysis*

    B Rank

    These Pokemon are strong choices in the metagame, but may suffer from inconsistency due to luck or matchup much moreso than the Pokemon in the Rank above. They have larger flaws or competition from other similar Pokemon which reduce their usefulness, but they're still considered metagame staples.


    [​IMG] Dodrio - Analysis*
    [​IMG] Gyarados - Analysis*
    [​IMG] Haunter - Analysis*
    [​IMG] Moltres
    [​IMG]Omastar
    [​IMG] Persian - Analysis*
    [​IMG] Raichu - Analysis*
    [​IMG] Vaporeon

    C Rank

    These Pokemon are more infrequent sights in the metagame, particularly in top level matches, but are nevertheless very viable Pokemon. They suffer from larger flaws than the Pokemon in the above rank.


    [​IMG] Clefable - Analysis*
    [​IMG]Dewgong
    [​IMG] Golduck
    [​IMG] Poliwrath - Analysis*
    [​IMG] Raticate - Analysis*
    [​IMG] Sandslash
    [​IMG] Victreebel - Analysis*


    D Rank

    These Pokemon are very rare sights in top level matches, and suffer from more crippling flaws. They require a lot of support to be effective, and may have consistency issues.


    [​IMG]Charizard
    [​IMG] Exeggcute
    [​IMG] Kingler
    [​IMG] Machamp
    [​IMG] Mr. Mime
    [​IMG] Pinsir
    [​IMG] Poliwhirl
    [​IMG] Rapidash
    [​IMG]Staryu
    [​IMG] Tangela
    [​IMG] Venusaur

    *These analyses are for RBY 2U-L17 and are therefore not to be taken as representative of the current tier. They remain listed because there may be some similarity in function between the different tiers
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
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  2. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Changes relative to the thread for 2U-L17:

    Don A->1U. rip
    Dnite 1U->S. It's really really good. AgiWrap is a thing, but its immense BST ensures it is a multidimensional two-way threat, not the one-trick pony it is in 1U.
    Gyara A->B. Dnite is better than this for the most part. Also it benefitted from Don's presence, and Dnite is now forcing it to run Blizzard, which isn't ideal
    Omastar ???->B. Great Dragonite check, its lack of coverage is far from crippling in a tier where there aren't any other good water types besides Gyara, which is at least Blizz-neutral. Also EQ isn't common, which is cool
    Electabuzz D->B. Don is gone, Psychic is a good coverage option now.
    Haunter B->A. There were calls for it to be A in the L17 thread, and Don leaving and being replaced by Dnite is easily enough to tip it into that category

    edit: I haven't considered D tier tbh, and I barely looked at C
    gonna go ahead and drop some theorymon: Dug and the Fires drop out of the rankings (we could do lower ranks if we really want to). Sandslash slides to D, as does Venusaur. In all those cases they get checked by Dnite while being unable to threaten it with reliable status or decent coverage (assuming Sleep has already been used, and that Rock Slide is not adequate coverage if you have base 100 atk or less). Also if Oma can jump to B (I think it can), can we also make a case for Kabutops? Maybe only D, since it's not as good as Oma, especially since it has a different role

    edit2: I may be overreacting on the Fire types, since it's not as though Don was kind to them either- both Don and Dnite checked them, it's just Dnite is a LOT better than Don
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    tentacruel
     
  4. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    I strongly disagree that Haunter is on the same level of Tentacruel, even with its ability to switch into Wrap with impunity. It still takes at least 25% from Blizzard/Fire Blast (I believe Fire Blast may have a niche specifically to burn incoming Haunters, thereby ruining their suicide missions), which is concerning if Dragonite has already used Agility. From there it can fire off another attack, shrug off the Thunderbolt, and then Wrap to something faster. Tentacruel, on the other hand, is the only high-ranked Pokemon in the tier who can OHKO Dragonite guaranteed besides Gyarados, except Gyara is slower than Dragonite and is terrifed of Thunderbolt. Tentacruel is not only more reliable at disposing of Dragonite than Haunter is, but is often way more devastating because it also has Wrap. The 2U World Championship is evidence of how dominant Tentacruel is, with or without Hyper Beam.

    If Haunter is A, Tentacruel is S. I believe every serious 2U team should have Tentacruel in it. It either pulls wins out of nowhere or crushes the opposition with that sky-high Special.
     
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  5. EB0LA

    EB0LA TOUR BANNED Member

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    Why is Raichu A, and Electabuzz B?
    Surf isn't needed much at all anymore, and Psychic is the better option. (Victreebell+Haunter) Not to mention Electabuzz out-speeds Tentacruel, Dodrio, & Charizard, while Raichu only speed-ties them. (Buzz speed-ties with Kadabra [Raichu is slower]). Raichu hits slightly more, but buzz carries slightly more bulk.
    Raichu is still pretty good but, with Rhydon gone to OU, Electabuzz becomes the top electric for this tier.

    Raichu ↓ B ↓
    Electabuzz ↑ A ↑
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
  6. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I always forget Tentacruel lol. Anyway I've always felt Tenta's defensive limitations kept it in A tier, but GGFan I'm aware you've found a lot of success with it. I'm not opposed to Tenta in S, but I'd like to hear more from other people before making the change

    edit: I'm aware Haunt's anti-Dnite utility is liable to be overrated, but it's nonetheless relevant as you say, and Don was also a factor working against Haunter. Anyway, I don't think burns are enough to justify using FB over Blizz when it's such a big factor in the Dnite matchup

    The reason I didn't initially swap them is because I felt it's a pretty major change to make. I actually agree with you that Buzz is probably better, so I might go ahead and make the swap.

    While we're on the topic, double electric is intriguing. It suffers far less from matchup issues than in 1U, but both pokemon are frail as hell, a fact somewhat mitigated by their excellent typing
     
  7. CrapAtRBY

    CrapAtRBY Member

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    Clefable felt better than C in the matches I've had so far, nice bulk and good against DNite with TWave and Blizzard. It does have 4MSS but on the flipside all of it options are threatening so you can keep your opponent guessing which can make switching in to it difficult if you haven't revealed all four moves.

    It can spread para, has Sing in its back pocket. There's a lot less non-normal physical moves floating round and regarding the two that do (unless I'm brainfarting), Clefable 2HKOs Dodrio guaranteed with both T-Bolt and Blizzard and excluding crits Kanagaskhan needs 3 EQs before Hyper Beam is guaranteed (It's guaranteed with 2 literally only if both are max rolls) making Counter a really solid option imo.
     
  8. CrapAtRBY

    CrapAtRBY Member

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    Also that 2U/3U dividing line is wrong unless and until we rejig Electabuzz, OMastar and anything else that might fare better now
     
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  9. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    woops lol I'll fix that up

    I'm strongly in favour of Clef moving up to B. iirc not everyone agreed on Clef's merits though. I remember someone saying that Clef is a low risk low reward pick, which it can be if you're just slapping it on a team (me most of the time I use it), but it certainly has the tools to be really threatening
     
  10. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Thoughts on Dug to C? It may not be the greatest pokemon overall, but it's a pretty phenomenal anti-lead, while its revenge killing utility is more valuable than ever- it can switch in on Buzz if need be, something that was much riskier when Raichu was the pick. In terms of Water types, since GGFan's run in the WC I think more people are running Tenta which obviously benefits Dug, while Gyara is a lot less common. Dnite is a bit of an issue, but it can potentially run Toxic to at least avert an AgiWrap sweep (stole this idea from Kaz).

    On the topic of Tenta, I'm still not sold on it in S. I'm not disputing its offensive prowess, as its Special is only just shy of the legendary birds, while Wrap gives it the tools to whittle down many would-be checks, such that walling it is not something that's all that feasible. It is prone to revenge killing via the common Kadabra and Electabuzz, and the less common Dug, which does limit it somewhat. The issue is that I struggle to find openings for it over the course of a match, which really limits its impact, while it doesn't offer the great teambuilding synergy that something like Hypno does.

    Dragonite's still ridiculous though, may actually be broken.
     
  11. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Triple posting come at me

    So I never posted my thoughts after my match against p5726 or w/e numbers are in their name. I'm going to go ahead and bump Dug to C, I honestly think it ought to be B though. Being faster than everything else is fantastic, especially in a tier where there are increasing numbers of fast, frail attackers that are vulnerable to it. Dug can switch in once or twice vs a few things (Electabuzz most notably, also Kadabra if it can avoid Psychic) and it revenge kills a LOT- Buzz, Kadabra, Tenta and Haunter are some of the most notable.

    Thoughts on Raichu to C? It doesn't really have any reason to be used over Buzz atm. Dual electric is also possible, but would need more testing because it has some flaws

    Thoughts on Gyara and Bel dropping to C? The biggest issues are that their typings are mediocre and their speed is poor, which makes them incredibly difficult to use right now. They don't really serve much purpose defensively, Bel's a pretty poor status spreader because so many things wall/threaten it, while Gyara's a hit and run attacker that has a hard time comfortably entering play.

    I still support Clef to B by the way. Its attack stat is enough to threaten physically frail pokemon, it's a great status spreader and by virtue of its typing it has few bad matchups (normal resisters are a problem depending on coverage)

    Has anyone used much of C rank? At the very least Venu seems like it could move down based on the fact that it's worse than Bel, which is itself struggling. I might have to make some teams for them and test them myself
     
  12. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Yo ppl I need some discussion, I can't just be making things up on my own

    So Articuno and Moltres are now unbanned. I've slotted them in A for the time being, as they're extremely potent, but part of the reason they're being retested is that the current meta is kinda hostile to them

    Tenta to S. It was borderline S before, adding MoltCuno to the mix makes Tenta a no-brainer for S.

    Dropped Dragonite to A. I keep waiting for it to prove itself broken, but it hasn't thus far, and with the addition of yet more powerhouse type pokemon it becomes a little harder to fit onto teams, as there's only so many threats you can cram onto a team

    Dropped Khan to B. It's really frail on the special side in a tier full of potent special attackers, on top of which its speed tier just isn't good enough

    Bumped Dug to B. Tbh I think it should be A. Anyway, fast, good matchup against a lot of popular things, but might struggle with Dnite and now MoltCuno.

    Dropped Raichu and Victreebel to C. Raichu is simply outclassed by Buzz in this environment due to Buzz's speed, otherwise they're practically indistinguishable. Bel to C because flying and psychic types everywhere make things terrible for it.

    Bumped Vaporeon to C, also added Dewgong to C. Vap's a really strong MoltCuno check, but I have my doubts about it as it's fodder for Tenta. Same applies to Dewgong, but Gong differs in that it hard counters Articuno by being immune to freeze, although obviously struggling against Molt.

    Added Staryu to D. For those who didn't play the prior incarnation of 2U when the birds were unbanned, Staryu is notable for being able to barely tank Articuno's attacks, while obviously having Recover and TWave. Can't quite claim the same thing for Molt, as FB+HBeam KOs due to Molt's better attack

    Edit: Dropped Venu to D. Same reasoning as for Bel.
     
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  13. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Most of the rankings look fair, especially the A rank on birds.

    I thought Kangaskhan was going to suck, but it takes Dugtrio's attacks pretty well, can take 2 Psychics and Rock Slide allows it to beat Articuno (speed ties Moltres, 2HKO both ways). It fails the Tentacruel test, could be A anyway.

    Haunter is pretty unreliable, it's going to see its share of play but I'm not sure it's good enough for A.

    Dugtrio is a dangerous sweeper, and when Dnite is not around it looks very well worth of A rank (personally, I'm not using Dnite currently as Cruel is better at doing Dnite things).

    Raichu's Surf is better than Electabuzz's Psychic against Ground-Types, and its function is to complete a 2HKO; you don't want to let Dugtrio sweep two pokemon though (and putting yourself two times at risk of getting crit) - basically, it's a tool to take out a Dugtrio which has been hit by EQ during a Dugtrio ditto or by Hypno's Psychic.
    All in all, Raichu and Electabuzz are very close, I'd say Raichu is B.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
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  14. CrapAtRBY

    CrapAtRBY Member

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    I think Dugtrio is definitely A, its speed plus T-Wave immunity means it can pretty much always get two attacks off against anything, it's bulk and is garbage and water/grass/ice weakness sucks but it can still force a lot out of the tier's mainstays, a crit OHKO's the entirety of S and A except for Hypno (which will often take Sleep) and Dragonite.

    Agree with Haunter to B too, it's lead match-ups ultiamtely aren't that great and it easily gets revenge killed by Duggy. Wrap immunity is cool but it's not great against Dragonite or even Tenta despite TBolt+Psychic.
     
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  15. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    So... Time to drop my thoughts on the tier.

    This tier revolves around Tentacruel, which is easily the best Pokemon in it, due to having 100 Base speed Wrap and 120 Base special, enabling it to check the Legendary Birds plus Dragonite and basically any Water type in the tier. It makes it so that the best answers to Tentacruel are the few Pokemon that naturally outspeed it and can hit it super effectively -Electabuzz/Raichu [Raichu only speed ties], Kadabra and Dugtrio- all of which are frail, and in Kadabra's case hard to keep away from paralysis thanks to the second most dominant Pokemon in the tier, Hypno. So if anything in this tier in its current form needs to be in discussion for a ban, it is Tentacruel.

    As hinted in the above paragraph, you also have your RBY-typical Psychic types in this tier. Here they are Hypno, which is generally hard to take down and can threaten basically anything with T-Wave, leading to itself being its best answer; and Kadabra, being a fast and strong revenge killer and Psychic switch-in, having access to Thunderwave as well.

    Where there are Psychic types in RBY, Normal types won't be far away. The Normal Types of this tier are Kangaskhan, Persian and Dodrio (Raticate thoeretically has a niche with Super Fang, but it's not worth using imo). Hard hitters that are not easy to switch into, but also relatively frail on the special side, which makes them manageble.

    Then you have the Legendary Birds -Articuno and Moltres- both of which are incredibly powerful but relatively one-dimensional which leaves them both checked by Water types like Vaporeon and the omnipresent Tentacruel. Both even have their respective hard-counters in Omastar [4x resists Fire for Moltres] and Dewgong [4x resists Ice + freeze immune for Articuno], which both come with their advantages and disadvantages: Dewgong does not resist Fire anymore and is generally not as bulky as Vaporeon, but has a stronger Blizzard than other Water Types. Omastar's Rock typing is both a blessing and curse, as it enables it to check the Normal Types of the tier -especially Dodrio and Persian, not so much Kangaskhan- better than Vaporeon and turns it into a counter for Dragonite which cannot even hope to wrap it in range of Thunderbolt. The downside is that it does not take on other Water types as well due to losing the Water resistence and not being able to switch into Dugtrio. Generally, I see Omastar and Vaporeon roughly on the same level and Dewgong below the two, but it does have its merit, I think.

    Next you have the Electric types, Electabuzz and Raichu who I see on roughly the same level. Electabuzz' advatage is that it outspeeds Tentacruel as opposed to speed tie like Raichu, but it trades Surf for Psychic, which is worse vs ground types but better vs Haunter. Raichu has access to Agility however which Electabuzz does not; not a huge deal, but it is something.

    The Nr.1 Electric check in this tier is Dugtrio because it can switch in on Thunderbolt and outspeed them and most importantly, it outspeeds Tentacruel and is thus a way to threaten it. The speed also helps vs the Legenadary Birds, Dugtrio is able to 2HKO them with Rock Slide. These are the reasons why it is used in place of another Ground type like Sandslash for example. Due to its speed, Dugtrio is one of the most dangerous sweepers in the tier. It is worth noting however, that Dugtrio is weak and does not even OHKO Electabuzz or Raichu.

    Since Dugtrio is the fastest used Pokemon in this tier [which comes with that high critical hit chance] one has to have switch-ins that can take 2 hits from it, if need be. The best switch-ins are Gyarados and Dragonite since even Rock Slide does not do that much damage to them and they in return threaten a lot of damage on the opposing Team, once brought in on Dugtrio thanks to their great Attack and good Speacial paired with excellent coverage. You also have the buky Water types, mainly Vaporeon and grass types, mostly Tangela but also Victreebel and Venusaur [which is mostly outclassed by Victreebel, but for switching into Dugtrio specifically is acually better thanks to surperior bulk]. But those Grass types all suffer from the presence of the Legendary Birds and Dragonite and have a hard time achieving much, but still can inflict status like sleep and paralysis.

    Which brings me to the sleepers in this tier. Most good Pokemon in the tier that can inflict sleep have to rely on Hypnosis to do so, like Haunter, which is also the only Wrap-immune Pokemon in the tier, and Hypno. Sleep Powder is used by Victreebel and Tangela, which like mentioned have a hard time dealing with prominent threats of the tier. Other options with an "accurate" Sleep Powder are available, like Venusaur, Butterfree, Venomoth, Exeggcute and even Parasect with Spore, but they are generally even worse.


    In terms of Viability Rankings, to me it looks something like this (not ordered within the ranks):

    S Rank

    Tentacruel, Hypno
    A Rank
    Vaporeon, Omastar, Electabuzz, Raichu, Kangaskhan, Dugtrio, Dragonite, Articuno, Moltres, Kadabra
    B Rank
    Dewgong, Persian, Dodrio, Victreebel, Haunter, Gyarados
    (C Rank
    Tangela, Poliwrath, Charizard, Venusaur, Blastiose, Clefable ?)
    (D Rank
    whatever else you can think of haveing theoretcally a niche, but being shit because Tentacruel exists...)

    About C rank, Charizard seems interesting, and frankly, not much (if at all) worse than Moltres in this environment. I gave Moltres the A because of being a Legendary Bird and Charizard the C because of all those prominent Water/Elctric types and Mons' like Dugtrio and Kangaskhan running around with Rock Slides, but it's not even that bad in theory thanks to EQ. Need to test both Moltres and Charizard more, but they just don't feel natural in this tier (ironically in Moltres' case).
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
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  16. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Great stuff guys!

    Based on your comments, I'm going to drop Haunter to B and bump Raichu and Dug to B and A respectively. In the case of Raichu I was definitely jumping the gun a little, I guess I tend to over-weigh redundancy- although Buzz is definitely better imo, I can see that being two tiers removed is a bit excessive.

    Lusch, the issue I have with putting Waters in A rank is the existence of Tentacruel- it not only uses them as setup fodder, they're also competing with it for a slot (unless you run dual water, which I think is viable). Broadly speaking they all possess the same defensive niche in checking the birds, while their individual differences are kinda secondary imo.

    I also question how valuable Vap's strengths are- with all the Flying types roaming the tier, Dug's not that difficult to check, while the only water type it's really beating is Oma.

    As for Grass types, I see little reason to run them- if you want something to beat other waters you run tenta imo, while if you want something to beat tenta they're not that great anyway. Flying types being everywhere absolutely screws them over. Also I don't really see any point in running Tangela, especially now that Don's gone.

    As for Zard, it could maybe be useful against Molt I guess? Otherwise it still suffers from its defensive typing and its stats being not quite enough
     
  17. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    Yea, you're right. I am not convinced of my rankings either, a lot of stuff could move up or down in rankings, but the order in which I placed the Pokemon was alright. Moved some stuff down, it probably rather looks like this

    S Rank
    Tentacruel, Hypno
    A Rank
    Electabuzz, Kangaskhan, Dugtrio, Dragonite, Articuno, Kadabra
    B Rank
    Persian, Dodrio, Vitcreebel, Haunter, Gyarados, Vaporeon, Omastar, Raichu, Moltres
    (C Rank
    Tangela, Poliwrath, Charizard, Venusaur, Blastiose, Clefable, Dewgong ?)
    (D Rank
    whatever else you can think of haveing theoretcally a niche, but being shit because Tentacruel exists...)
     
  18. EB0LA

    EB0LA TOUR BANNED Member

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    Here's how I would rank the 2U tier as of now. Mainly posting this so I can keep track, and edit as I test further.

    Current # of viable Pokémon in the tier: 18

    S Rank

    Tentacruel

    A+ Rank
    Hypno
    A Rank
    Articuno, Dragonite, Kangaskan
    A- Rank
    Dugtrio, Kadabra

    B+ Rank

    Electabuzz
    B Rank
    Dodrio, Haunter, Moltres, Omastar, Persian
    B- Rank
    Raichu, Vaporeon, Victreebel

    C+ Rank
    Gyarados
    C Rank
    Poliwrath


    Anything that is not on this list above, may have some niche uses, but should be the main choices. The one's listed below, can be some what viable, but are out classed by the ones listed above, and deemed 3U.

    Notable mentions:
    Blastoise, Charizard, Clefable, Dewgong, Fearow, Golduck, Mr. Mime, Sandslash, Tangela, Venasaur
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  19. Kaz

    Kaz Member

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    Thoughts in a terrible english

    S Rank
    -Tentacruel. Not surprising, he's the most dominating force in the metagame, being a valuable team member in many ways. Games are about dealing around him whenever he can get in (which isn't too hard) and requires a lot of patience for most teams. Exellent pivot, decent sweeper, virtually checking everything slower, he's also quite vertatile: sd, rest and sub being useful in certains match-ups. S rank is fully deserve as he should be on any serious teams, what he offers is too good in just one slot. Need more testing before any banhammer, wrap is still unreliable and Tentacruel is really exposed while being low/forced to rest.


    A Rank
    -Hypno. To me he's not as great as he was before MoltCuno release. He dosen't blanket specials attackers as well as before bird release, most of powerful specialists potentially 3HKO him. He also have some sort of 4MSS syndrom, while his speed coupled with hypnosis poor accuracy sometimes give him troubles to do that properly while retaining some usefulness for the rest of the game. Despite that he's still the best A to me, his ability to check moderate attackers such as electrics and psychics (and maybe even more with timely drops) should be considered for any team and thunderwave punish everything or so; he quite hard to switch into outside of you own rest hypno. He's not as dominent but still really good.

    -Dragonite. Another very valuable team member, one of the few good switch in to EQ backed up with great bulk and wide movepool. Dragonite isn't only the wrap machine he used to be. He's one of the best paralysis spreader in the tier, have some breaking capacities with body slam while AgiliWrap being a constant fear if you don't run specific stuff. A bit hindered with the presence of Tentacruel, Articuno and bulky waters in general while his speed isn't that good, also most teams are prepared to take some wrap. Still a very splashable mon that covers many roles in one slot.

    -Kadabra. The second psychic, probably the best Tentacruel check when not paralyzed, however Kadabra can be used in a lots of ways that he often end statused. He's a lot harder to switch into while facing Tentacruel, giving him the edge at this role over both electrics. Twave + recover is never bad despite being really frail. I give him A and eletrics B because he can do much more and hit harder in general. Also a good lead, something electrics don't do well.

    -Dugtrio. The best cleaner, Dugtrio is the anti-metagame pokemon as he can quickly be an issue. He 2HKO everything above not named Dragonite, Khangaskhan or Hypno, and the latter one still struggles versus him while a subtoxic set will greatly reduce dragonite usefulness. If that's not enough he naturally checks electrics and haunter while giving most waters troubles when it comes to switch in and Tangela is too passive to be considered a prime answer which leaves you with Gyarados (the meta is quite hostile to him) Dragonite and Vaporeon at decent switchs while physically bulky pokémons such a Kangaskhan are good offensive answers. Did i mention it's the fastest thing viable ? Overall Dugtrio is too frail to be considered a dominating force but he's by far the best at its unique role, so yeah, A.

    -Kangaskhan. No safe switching, he can threaten everything, being one of the best breaker in the tier. His physical line is impeccable, allowing him to go against the likes of dugtrio dodrio and persian if needed. However he's not as impacting as Tauros can be in 1U simply because his speed and special aren't that good, still can beat electrics and articuno in a pure 1v1 and can remove anything you need in the lategame. The best normal because he dosen't have true counter like Persian and Dodrio.

    -Articuno. Even more one dimensional than Moltres but way more reliable, that's why give him A. He can be answered but for how long ? freeze can comes anytime and wrap being omnipresent allow him to get in quite safely despite not being really helpful in terms of synergy. Agility allow him to not be easily checked by tentacruel. If you can manage his checks he's devastating and hard to revenge kill if you give him a single free turn.


    B Rank
    -Vaporeon. Borderline A if it wasn't for the S-tier mon but maybe i overrate it. Still Vaporeon is a key member when it comes to take wrap thanks to his massive HP. It can be really hard to take down even by super effective hits, trading meaningful hits vs everything if needed. It also have his own the offensive side, especially if you opt for hydro pump (it 3HKO hypno). Overall it's still a metagame staple to me, shutting down birds dug and more. I think it's better than Omastar because you, most of the time, already run Tentacruel; vap is better vs electric, Dug and Kadabra all of them gives tenta troubles while also being being better vs most things that isn't Dodrio.

    -Electrics. At first i thought Buzz would have been way better because of that 105 base speed, but Dugtrio being omnipresent and the combinaison of agili+surf make Raichu a potent threat to the point i consider them equal. They rely on that super effective hit to do heavy damage, otherwise special stat isn't that good to harm most of neutral targets that compose A, even birds can beat them after a speed boost. They're still good because of that fast t-wave but that's about it and the super effective hit on waters. To me Kadabra outclass them and can be harder to break thanks to recover.

    -Haunter. Fast sleep + normal immunity are neat tools but he's frail that one or two misses ruin it. Despite the wrap immunity he can't answer tentacruel by is own and may even struggle vs healthy dragonite. He's not as good he used to be in the beginning of the frontiers but he's unique and one of the best sleepers if you can get him in safely. Explosion is a nice emergency button

    -Dodrio. Despite being truly countered by rocks, Dodrio can be more dangerous than Kangaskhan due to its better offenses and access to agility. The problem is that he does not contribute defensively speaking, barely coming on dugtrio. Flying type and poor defenses hurt him a lot while speed tying Tentacruel is shaky. A good lead for offensively minded teams.

    -Moltres. I won't say it is outclassed by Articuno, but Ice type is overall better and Moltres is really unreliable if you want to exploit his full potential. Need a lot of support to do something meaningful. However if you can set him a good playground and/or if you opponent forgot to consider him, it will cause havoc, unlikeky since most Cuno answers are also good vs Moltres, bar dewgong.

    -Gyarados. This one need more love. I feel like this is a lil bit outclassed by Dragonite, who can run the same moveset while still having wrap and speed control under his belt. However ice is as common as electric and gyadaros have a better time fighting opposing waters not named Tentacruel. Defensively it help vs Dugtrio and Kangaskhan in the rank above but thats about it.

    -Victreebel. Bad luck magnet, dual powder backed by wrap and stab razor leaf is everything tangela hope to have. Sadly poison typing hinders victreebel a lot, not being able to reliably check dugtrio and the accuracy of key moves might be shaky. Still a good mon that can do a lot if the right circumtences, appreciates Tentacruel and Dragonite as team mates to get in safely on defensive waters.

    -Omastar. As said in the vaporeon part, i think its pretty hard to fit Omastar onto a team alongside tentacruel (Eq and Tbolt weakness mainly but also psychic). Well this pokémon is quite mandatory in the metagame being the sturdiest response to most of the threatening powerhouses in the tiers such as birds and normals.

    -Persian. Fast sweeper that beat Dugtrio in a pure 1v1, toxic prevents dragonite to set up freely, making for a decent sweeper. Outside of slash, offenses are really average and the bulk dosen't help either. Heavily cripped by paralysis and Haunter is a roadblock, outclassed by Kan and Dodrio as a normal sweeper and by Dugtrio as a cleaner. Could drop for C but i haven't tested it enough to be bold on that.


    As for C i haven't tested most of that, if anyone wants to to friendlies feel free to ask, i think thoses have some interesting niches to get that C rank: Clefable, Dewgong, Sandslash, Tangela, Poliwrath. Most of them serves a checks to specifics things while clefable stands out because of of his wide movepool and decent offensive pressure.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
    EB0LA and Lusch like this.
  20. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    It looks to me that Dugtrio has a bigger than expected problem with Dnite: Dnite is just as hard to stop as I predicted after setting up, and Dugtrio is forced to use Toxic to counter the Agility play (DNite's Blizzard does 80-90%, Surf is a 2HKO; consider that Dnite has other things to do even if it gets Toxic'd).
    I think we're sleeping a bit on Dnite (or at least, I am) and Omastar could be a counterpick to it.

    I totally overlooked Charizard, it looks like it has some selling points and Vaporeon's usage should be low (on the other hand, Grass-types shouldn't be used in this tier). It stutters a bit against Tentacruel and even more against Buzz, and I think it needs Toxic for Dnite just like Dugtrio does so C looks fair.

    All in all there are high ranked pokemon that won't see much play in my prediction: Gyarados is the prime example, followed by Vaporeon/Dewgong, Victreebel and possibly Persian/Dodrio.
     
  21. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    Glad to see people agree about Tentacruel.

    Surprised that Dugtrio has emerged as the overlooked threat, to be honest. I guess Rhydon moving up to 1U helped.
     
  22. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Gyarados, Dodrio and Kangaskhan dropped a lot in usage (compared to 2U) - these three pokemon are a nightmare for Dugtrio; being faster than Tentacruel, which got omnipresent, helps too.
    I'm not sure whether it's going to stay A-ranked or not, though: Dragonite is a tough opponent, and we still need to test all of the possible plays of Dugtrio vs DNite encounters.
     
  23. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    Is Dragonite really that great, though? 2U is much faster than 1U and Articuno being unbanned doesn't help.
     
  24. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Articuno is rarer than one would expect, Tentacruel is a major issue though; anyway, Dragonite is tough to handle if it sets Agility up because most pokemon are really frail (1 hit of Wrap does 8-10% to many opponents).
    Dugtrio is one of the very few pokemon that give Dnite a free turn, unless it specifically uses Toxic - I don't like Dnite because big part of the tier is fast and has access to TWave and/or Blizzard, but it's the best answer to Earthquake and it can be a nightmare in case it finds an opening (Kangaskhan, Dodrio, Persian, Dugtrio or just FPs, sleeping/frozen pokemon).
     
  25. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    js Dug has Sand Attack as well, which can be effective at gimping Dnite (not my idea, can't remember who I got it from). Obviously you're still relying on misses which isn't reliable, but your odds are a lot better and with some luck you can easily come out ahead. Also Toxic misses suck lol

    It's clear by now that I was getting ahead of myself in dropping Khan to B, even though I think it belongs there I'm obviously in the minority on that one. Khan can rise back to A

    Also bumping Vap to B. It's fat and more importantly, multiple people support it for B and Kaz did a solid job selling its strengths.

    Changes I'm not implementing yet:

    Buzz->B. Yes, of all the things that revenge Tenta it is probably the least effective (unless we count Persian? idk), but electric typing is still goddamn amazing- Dug weakness is literally the only downside to this pokemon, and even then there are plenty of potential Dug checks

    Hypno->A. I agree that the raw power of the tier's special attackers limits Hypno a bit, but I still see it as being S for a few reasons- it has no glaring weaknesses, which makes it probably the easiest pokemon to fit onto a team. It's your best bet at managing the uncomfortable matchups that it and Kadabra force, given that they don't really have any great switchins. I know this is kinda using the argument that a pokemon checks itself, but it really is invaluable having something that can stall other Psychics for an opening for something else, something that Kadabra doesn't do nearly as well due to its frailty. Lastly, it's still the best sleep user in the tier by a comfortable margin (which isn't saying much, given how unreliable/outright bad its users are)

    Victreebel->B. I don't see what niche it has tbh. It kinda checks Oma/Vap (Blizz hurts lol), and that's about it. Meanwhile Dnite, MoltCuno and Psychic types all rip it to shreds. It can't spread status effectively because most status absorbers are pretty effective against it (Psychic types, also Haunter since it's a lead). It can't deal damage reliably because its STAB is easily tanked by its checks and unless it can snare a HB kill it's forced to Wrap, which leaves the opponent free to bring in their MoltCuno or whatever. It basically accomplishes nothing.

    Moltres->B. As I see it, key issues for Moltres are that it's checked by Dnite and Gyara where Cuno is not, and it burns rather than freezes, with Cuno being able to stay in and fish for freezes if it wants. Getting checked by GyaraNite is an issue, no doubt about it, but burning rather than freezing isn't the end of the world. All of Moltres' checks are limited by a burn, whether by reducing their attack power, eliminating the threat of Wrap spam or by simply being slower and thus susceptible to Wrap/FSpin. Cuno having the option of staying in is a positive, but as mentioned it can only really fish for freezes, a play that's unreliable and prone to costing most of its bulk. Meanwhile, Molt's Fire Spin can support the team really nicely and helps mitigate some of its bad matchups, as Tenta's the only thing switching into it that's faster
     
  26. CrapAtRBY

    CrapAtRBY Member

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    Molt looks good on paper but in practice I’ve never really seen it accomplish anything, it’s very one dimensional and most teams will have more than enough to handle it without having to think about it. Fire Blast’s and moreso Fire Spin’s accuracy are significant issues. It’s outclassed as a partial trapper, Fire typing is still pretty shitty, even with the possibility of burns, special attackers are everywhere.

    I think it fits in more alongside the likes of Gyara/Drio/Haunter (the tools are there for it to be great but you need the right circumstances) than the likes of Dragonite/Dugtrio/Buzz (can consistently still do something for the match even if the circumstances are against them)
     
  27. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    So this seems random, but did any of you guys understand Moltres yet?
    I'm even starting to doubt its worth over Charizard (which in itself is far from great, but at least speed ties Tenta and can hit it hard with EQ).
    On that note [might be too early], does Charizard belong into this tier? What are your opinions? (I know we're gonna have a vote on those kind of things anywaybut atm I do not know what I'd vote for it)
    Same question for Poliwrath, it is relatively weak, but has some cool tricks up its sleeve with especially Hypnosis and access to Earthquake for Tentacruel but also Amnesia and Fire/Ice resistence. I can see it belonging into the tier, but am not sure if its strenghts (basically Hypnosis) are enough.
     
  28. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I don't see any appeal to Zard- the Tenta matchup is a weak point imo because it's dependent on a coinflip- that's a 50% chance of Zard's main niche being non-existent. Meanwhile Molt's superior bst is imo valuable in neutral matchups- normals and psychics in particular.

    I'm also not buying Poli being part of the tier. C is definitely the right spot for it imo. Obviously there's the issue of its bad matchups against Electrics AND Psychics, but if you're running EQ/STAB/Amnesia/Hypnosis you also have to contend with Dnite and Gyara (unless Blizz>STAB?). That's a lot of top threats to struggle against. Meanwhile I just think it's really easy to play around- it basically needs to use Amnesia to do anything against stuff not weak to EQ/STAB, which gives you plenty of leeway in bringing a check in, while its bulk is decent, but not great, so it tends to get overwhelmed if it enters play multiple times.

    Anyway I have no idea why I didn't drop Moltres last time. Even though I'm not completely sold on it being mediocre, too many people view it as B to ignore. Molt to B
     
  29. CrapAtRBY

    CrapAtRBY Member

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    More like Moltrash amirite
     
  30. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Sooooo after my set vs Lusch I did some more teambuilding and I've lost a LOT of interest in birds and electrics.

    Regarding the birds there are the Tenta issues which have been discussed ad nauseum, but at every stage where I might've considered adding them to my team I preferred Dnite instead- all of them function as checks to physical attackers, but the Dug matchup is a huge deal imo, with it being too easy for Rock Slide to become threatening to the birds, less so for Dnite. The flipside is that Dnite is worse against Normals due to BST/STAB, but to me this does not outweigh the perils the birds face in handling Dug.

    As something of an extension to this I'm no longer enamoured with electrics. Whenever I wanted a special attacker capable of revenging Tenta I went for Kadabra. Admittedly there's a lot less overlap, as Raichu's primarily an offensive threat (though its poor defensive utility relative to Buzz is itself a problem), while even if you set aside Buzz's bird matchup it still gets to spam its STAB against predicted Hypno switches, rather than relying on SToss like Kadabra does. Still, overall I'm less of a Buzz fan now.

    Proposing:
    Articuno and Electabuzz -> B
    Moltres and Raichu -> C


    Regarding C rank, gonna propose that Gong and Rat drop. Rat's just too difficult to justify with all the other normals available, while I just don't see why you'd use Gong- freeze immunity and slightly more powerful Blizz just aren't worth it imo when you've got Tenta, Oma and Vap being better options.

    As for D rank, I was overhyping Articuno by adding Staryu. Staryu and Egg should imo be removed. Star's niche is the stuff of E rank imo, it's otherwise terrible, while Egg's niche is also tiny- it has to compete with Tangela and Hypno as dual status users that don't have terrible typings, with Egg's only edge over Tangela being its Psychic matchup (literally everything else is worse) and its niche over Hypno being that it frees Hypno to run something else and reliability (slightly) I guess? In return it achieves literally nothing besides Sleep, having terrible matchups against just about everything.

    Note that I haven't tested the last two though. I almost included Whirl, but changed my mind, pending testing.

    Edit: I now support Tang to C
     
  31. EB0LA

    EB0LA TOUR BANNED Member

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    I wouldn't move tangela to C. It does nothing more besides tanking dugtrio's eq, which dnite does better, and has a counter punch. While tangela doesn't have any strong attacks to really be viable. I think it remains a niche, such as being paired with a wrap lead, and then getting a free switch in when they go dug, then you get a free powder off.
    Tang - D

    I can agree with Rat being dropped, because of other superior normals being present.

    As with dewgong, the frz immunity isn't too flashy, so also agree with it getting dropped.

    Finally, what about duck & slash, has anyone had any luck being able to get these set up? I think these two can drop as well.

    Also I can agree with the electrics getting bumped down, both at B, the psychics just do it better. I'd keep them at same level, as Raichu gets agility. (B)
     
  32. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Tangela doesn't just take on Dug, it is also effective vs Normal types due to how badly they get crippled by Stun Spore. It resists Water while not getting immediately destroyed by Blizz the way Dnite does, and it's also neutral to Psychics. This latter point is a big deal imo, and enables it to pull off a dual powder wrap set arguably better than Victreebel, enough to give it a substantial niche.

    As for Raichu, I think Agility is being grossly overhyped. These are already two of the fastest pokemon in the tier, only Buzz has greater defensive utility by a huge margin thanks to its superior speed tier
     

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