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RBY 5U (Under4U) Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Enigami, May 11, 2016.

  1. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Welcome to the 5U "PU" Viability Ranking Thread! In case you're not familiar with the concept, we place Pokémon in certain ranks here, based on their impact on the tier as well as their general viability in the tier. This is an excellent help while teambuilding and it serves as a general outline of the tier. Furthermore it is used in our formation of the tier below.

    If you feel that a Pokémon is misplaced, feel free to make a post about it - that's what this thread is for. As long as you are reasonably sensible and courteous this thread should run smoothly.

    Pokemon are sorted into ranks based on how well they perform in their roles. They are ordered alphabetically within each ranking to avoid overcomplication.

    Tierlist | Discussion Thread

    S Rank

    These Pokémon are the most effective Pokémon in the metagame. Their offensive and defensive prowess, as well as versatility, and ability to fulfill a variety of important roles lend themselves to this.

    [​IMG] Dragonair - Analysis
    [​IMG] Drowzee - Analysis
    [​IMG] Gastly - Analysis
    [​IMG] Seadra - Analysis

    A Rank

    These Pokémon perform significant roles in the metagame, and perform them very well, however they are not the most dominating forces.

    [​IMG] Electrode - Analysis
    [​IMG] Ninetales - Analysis

    B Rank

    These Pokémon are strong choices in the metagame, but perform less important roles or are less consistent than Pokémon in the Rank above. They have larger flaws than Pokémon in above ranks, or face greater competition from similar Pokémon, reducing their usefulness.

    [​IMG] Arbok - Analysis
    [​IMG] Graveler - Analysis
    [​IMG] Parasect
    [​IMG] Poliwag - Analysis
    [​IMG] Seaking
    [​IMG] Vileplume - Analysis

    C Rank

    These Pokémon are more infrequent sights in the metagame, particularly in top level matches, but are nevertheless viable Pokémon. They are less effective in the metagame than Pokémon in above ranks, but are effective with proper support.

    [​IMG] Lickitung - Analysis
    [​IMG] Magmar - Analysis
    [​IMG] Primeape
    [​IMG] Wartortle - Analysis

    -------------------- Everything above this line is 5U -------------------- Everything below this line is 6U --------------------

    D Rank

    These Pokémon are very rare sights in top level matches, and suffer from more crippling flaws. They require a lot of support to be effective, and may have consistency issues.

    [​IMG] Flareon
    [​IMG] Kabutops
    [​IMG] Pidgeot - Analysis

    E Rank

    These Pokemon are barely viable in the tier but require very specific support to make use of. They have flaws too crippling for them to be seen at all often in high level play, but nevertheless are still explorable options. They are generally considered gimmicks.

    [​IMG] Beedrill
    [​IMG] Butterfree
    [​IMG] Hitmonlee
    [​IMG] Machamp
    [​IMG] Magneton
    [​IMG] Marowak
    [​IMG] Muk
    [​IMG] Ponyta - Analysis
    [​IMG] Tentacool
    [​IMG] Weepinbell
    [​IMG] Weezing

    F Rank

    These Pokemon have flaws too crippling to ever be serious contenders in the tier, and tend to suffer from being largely but not totally outclassed. They are considered gimmicks.

    [​IMG] Dratini
    [​IMG] Hitmonchan
    [​IMG] Onix
    [​IMG] Pikachu
    [​IMG] Sandshrew
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2017
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  2. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Just finished my set vs CrapAtRBY, so time for some thoughts. Rankings seem fine to me, haven't seen/used Tales, King, Wak or Mag so I'm not too sure there.

    Flareon is decent, but idk how it compares to other Fire types. I suspect in the end there'll be not much reason to use it over the other fires, but for now C rank seems fine. For me, its Slam was a little underwhelming which is notable given that its ATK is its main niche, though Grav's presence when I used it didn't help matters.

    I used Butterfree, not sure how good it'll be. When I used it he led Magmar, which is obviously a terrible matchup for it, but also Wag is a rough matchup, so I'm not sure how well it'll fare as a lead... which is the obvious role for it. It could maybe go against Vileplume?

    On that note, I tried Plume as an SDer, and I was thoroughly underwhelmed. On paper it looks good, with a respectable atk but if you're using HB (which I was) it falls really short in terms of power. Haven't tried Slam though.

    Dragonair I believe could easily become a metagame staple, and it doesn't have a lot to do with Wrap surprisingly. I ran a moveset of Blizz/Tbolt/Twave/Wrap and honestly that coverage is just amazing (not to mention access to TWave). I'm saying at least B, possibly even A.

    Arbok is also pretty good, but it suffers a little from having a shitty defensive typing- there are just very few situations where you're inclined to go to Arbok, as it doesn't have any role defensively. Offensively it can be effective tho. I guess C is fine for it imo

    Weezing is pretty good offensively, but it suffers from Poison type syndrome in that it has no defensive use. I guess it's not as bad as Arbok tho, since it's more status resilient and can have a much bigger immediate impact. Still not sure here.
     
  3. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Poliwag should drop at this point: Pidgeot proved to be viable and Primeape is quickly becoming the fighting type of choice, leaving Poliwag outsped by Pidgeot, Primeape and Magmar.
     
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  4. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Muk can go in C I think. Marcoasd and I tried it and it works fine (or at least better than D ranks). Poliwag to A is fine but we'll have to watch out: in my series against stunner it was very dangerous every single time even though we had a bunch of Magmars (I love that thing) and Drowzees that could pressure/switch-in. A bit unsure about Machamp if Primeape is the premier fighting type choice but I haven't tried any. The rest seems fine for the time being.
     
  5. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Made some ranking changes for now:

    Poliwag S > A
    Dragonair Unranked > B
    Primeape Unranked > B
    Muk Unranked > C
    Pidgeot Unranked > C
    Arbok Unranked > D
    Flareon Unranked > D
    Butterfree Unranked > E
    Parasect F > E
     
  6. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Soooo after my set vs Enigami I definitely think Dair ought to be A. Dair is an extremely multidimensional threat, with status, great coverage and everyone's favourite strategy, AgiWrap. Big, big threat, potentially S or even suspect worthy, but idk yet. While I'm at it, I think Grav is more B. It has multiple weaknesses which become quite a big deal, and imo paralysis just is too difficult to spread for Grav to be that effective.

    I'm unsure of whether Seaking is B, like I get that it's a pseudo Seadra, but Poliwag is also rly good if you wanna stack waters.

    Wrap is actually a big threat, I may have underestimated Arbok, idk. Certainly it's better than Wak, which suffers from all of Grav's flaws while being a bit weaker on top of that.
     
  7. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    Wow

    Personally I feel like Wak is a lot better than Graveler, like ok its worse vs Pidgeot / Electrode, but it's a better Drowzee and Pikachu switch-in and Blizzard is cool as well as its better MU vs Graveler and also pairing a bit better than graveler alongside pidgeot.

    Honestly you can run all 3 and I like having that extra bulk available.

    Will say I need to play a lot more but I built 22 teams yesterday so I at least have teams to test.
     
  8. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Couple of thoughts: Supporting a Dragonair rise, A for the time being and we'll see in the future if it's S worthy or not. Supporting a Graveler drop, meta is hostile to it, electrics aren't played enough for it to have a good use, fires are walled by waters anyway. Machamp should drop to like D imo, I don't see anyone using it but I see hitmonlees and primeapes who seem to outclass it.

    We should also keep an eye on the rank of electrics since there's often a vileplume, sometimes a ground in teams
     
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  9. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Ok, so time to dump my thoughts

    Hitmonlee is rubbish imo, certainly not worth using over Primeape. Ape has better speed, and overall a better movepool, Tbolt, Rock Slide and Hyper Beam are all intriguing options, whereas Lee only gets a better STAB and BSlam... there's practically nothing else in its movepool. Also Ape has better bulk, but I'm not sure that it's enough to be relevant. Torn between D and E here.

    Pidgeot is actually pretty cool. Not sure how I feel about its ranking, I guess C is fine for it since it has terrible defensive utility, but I think it's pretty cool, packs a good amount of power and is generally a capable sweeper.

    Finally used Seaking and yeah, it's B-worthy. Decent physical attack makes it a solid option for wearing down opposing waters, which is especially useful when you're facing off against Wag.

    I used Gastly, but I don't have an opinion yet, since it didn't really accomplish much in my battle, besides being sleep fodder, which admittedly is something it's not entirely terrible at due to finding waking opportunities vs Plume and Wrappers. On paper it actually does pretty well imo, has good offensive coverage and normal immune plus adequate special bulk. I think I need more testing here though.

    Also I stand by my earlier comments on Grav and Dair. In fact, I think Dragonair ought to be S, great coverage, access to status, combined with AgiWrap is a big deal, I may test it a bit more, since I didn't play the AgiWrap optimally, but I still see it as a potential suspect candidate.
     
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  10. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    It's a great Vileplume switch-in and okay switch-in to stuff like Marowak and most importantly it's one of a handful of Pokémon faster than Poliwag.
    I'd almost be tempted to put it in A it ends up on most of my teams and it works really well.
     
  11. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Are you this sure about Dnair? It didn't look S to me, I need to play more with and against it.
     
  12. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Grav really really isn't good in this meta, little para, loads of things that target its weaknesses, drop to B imo, potentially even C, I don't think it's substantially better than Wak.

    What are people's thoughts on Drowzee dropping? It's just not bulky enough imo, leaving it with little defensive niche and I find it's really easy to pass over. Offensively it still pulls its weight, but to me it's more B.

    I've used Gastly and it's actually pretty good. It's not quite fast enough (and Seadra 2HKOs it =[ ), but its typing, spc and Tbolt/Psychic mean it can definitely put in work. I think it's worthy of B.

    Weezing is alright, it makes a nice Plume response but otherwise doesn't do much and it's not as though there's a lack of Plume responses otherwise. However in my battle with it it just felt so expendable. I'm torn between C and D here. Probably D if I'm being honest.

    Just generally I'm finding slow physicals just don't cut it. They really can't afford to switch into anything except I guess Plume, since most of the meta's main players have powerful STAB options available and outspeed, probably the main exception being Dair, which makes up for it with Wrap. So I guess this is my way of saying Champ->C. It just really isn't that relevant.

    Also Dair for S
     
  13. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Rankings update:

    Dragonair: B > A
    Gastly: Unranked > C
    Graveler: A > B
    Machamp: B > C
    Weezing: Unranked > D

    Moved Dragonair and Graveler halfway to suggested new ranks and put Gastly in C for now. Moved Machamp down, and added Weezing to D.
     
  14. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Pidgeot hits hard, especially in case Graveler's usage is dropping - that is happening now I guess. It's better than C.
    Machamp is so rare/uneffective that I don't see it being C: in all honesty, Machamp doesn't belong to the tier (D).
    Primeape is delusional against Vileplume and Gastly is troublesome too. I see it being in a tough position, I would seriously consider using SToss at this point (but I don't see it being B anymore, at all).

    Stuff like Pikachu or Weepinbell should go even lower, not to mention Dratini.

    A rank is hard to tell.
    I think Drowzee is actually one of the best pokemon: it's the only effective TWaver (we're not seeing TWave Dnair atm) and Psychic is the best offensive tool on predicted Rest.
    Nothing can switch in safely and Drowzee is stealing the role to the likes of Machamp and physicals in general.
    All in all, paraslams are the main thing that can hinder it (special attacks fail to 2HKO, and Marowak's EQ is 45%ish to 2HKO).
    I support Vileplume, Seaking, Dragonair and Drowzee to A; Poliwag looks arguable to me, but I think that's because I'm dumb and I've been using Blizzard>Psychic so far - that is an awful choice. Still, Hypnosis' accuracy and its bulk suck.
     
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  15. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    I'm not sure how much I agree on Pikachu / Primeape moving too far down, at the least they should be in C rank, they're good offensively but frail.

    I've used twave dragonair a bit but I feel like agiwrap is so potent that in some ways it's a bit of a waste... but definitely worth testing further.

    I'm not sure I'd go far as to say what either side is saying on Drowzee; the long and the short of it is that it's not too easy to get in but it's even harder to switch in to. B or A rank seems appropriate but i'm not really sure.

    In spite of having some insane record in new frontiers I barely know the tier still tbh u_u
     
  16. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Hmm I'm kinda wondering if maybe we ought to shift (almost) everything up?

    I've said my bit on Dragonair and how I think it's S rank, but also Vileplume could be S rank because I feel it's indispensable- its status options, decent all-around bulk, I just find it tough to not include it in my teams. Actually, screw it, here are my personal viability rankings

    S
    Seadra
    Vileplume (backbone of pretty much all my teams)
    Dragonair (may be borked)

    A
    Seaking (Shitty Seadra, but that's not a bad thing. Similar thing has happened the past two tiers lol)
    Magmar (Great lead, can be effective in a few different ways)
    Poliwag (Meta has adapted to it, but it's still a monster if given an opening)

    B
    Drowzee (It's a decent threat, but not one I worry about too much)
    Ninetales (Magmar's better, which is a surprise, but Ninetales can work once Waters are out the way)
    Primeape (Good mon, Vileplume is just too big a nuisance)
    Gastly (It's good, use it)
    Pidgeot (I haven't thought about Pidgeot too much, but when I used it it was a beast)

    C
    Machamp (Like Primeape, except slow)
    Graveler (See below)
    Marowak (I have no idea where to put the Grounds. They're definitely relevant threats, but they're still shit imo, and when I use them I feel they drag the team down... so idk, could maybe be B, just because I consider them relevant)
    Muk (C seems right to me)
    Pikachu (Really flawed, but it's more than capable of doing its thing)

    D
    Electrode (Between Plume and Ground types, I'll pass)
    Arbok (Probably the best in D rank)
    Dratini (Silly gimmick, but I think it can work)
    Weezing (Realistically it's not that much worse than Muk, but it is still worse, so D it goes)
    Flareon (Thoroughly mediocre)
    Weepinbell (???)

    E
    Magneton (Electrode is bad, this is worse)
    Hitmonlee (Terrible)
    Parasect (Yeah it's bad. Not sure it's E bad, but I'm not going to argue)
    Butterfree (rip)
    Sandshrew (idk)
     
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  17. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Ortheore's rankings I feel are more accurate than the current rankings, so I've integrated his changes.

    Also, dropped Sandshrew to F. While Swords Dance, Rock Slide+Earthquake and a decent Attack stat can make it threatening, it needs too much support to make it worth using over Marowak. A lack of Electrode and Magneton in the tier also makes it hard to find setup opportunities.
     
  18. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    I kinda feel like Wak is being a little underrated; it's reasonably nice with some para support, it does good damage, its main issue is that it can't take special hits too well. Drowzee doesn't straight up 2HKO without a crit or specfall though, and is outsped, so it acts as a switch-in to that, and its EQ is pretty damn strong. It has good defense so its a nice check to like Primeape and Pidgeot. It is dnair bait though, with only Body Slam to dissuade it.

    I still don't really get the meta in the slightest tho

    (please ignore my ridiculous new frontiers record)
     
  19. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Lickitung to E rank, its speed is just too great an impediment, and it doesn't have the bulk to back it up
     
  20. DDX2

    DDX2 Member

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    Hi,

    I have a few questions regarding the tiers here:

    1. Why isn't Weezing also at least C like Muk?
    Weezing has better defensive stats, and is much better offensively with special attacks than Muk. The main difference I see is that Muk knows Body Slam and Mega Drain. Do either of those attacks make it better overall?

    2. Why isn't Magneton and/or Flareon decisvely here? They both have insanely high Special.
    I know Magneton is slower and doesn't have Explosion like Electrode, but that seems to be all Electrode has for it consider its defensive and offensive stats are much worse than Magneton.

    Nearly the same thing with Flareon, both of them seem to be similar to me in the same way you placed Moltres and Articuno in 2U. Poor movesets, but fairly durable with extremely powerful STAB attacks.

    3. While not as relevant, wouldn't Rhyhorn be better than Sandshrew overall?
     
  21. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Hi,

    For Muk and Weezing there's the physical attack to take into account, but I don't think they've been tested that much. The tier is still "WIP"

    Magneton and Flareon are both slow, Magneton is cockblocked by Graveler (and can't boom whereas Electrode can) and Flareon has troubles too, unlike Magmar who has Psychic. Ninetales outspeeds most of the stuff and can lead better.

    Graveler is quite a lot better than Rhyhorn, and Sanshrew has Swords Dance, Rhyhorn doesn't.

    Could probably go way deeper into details but overall that's why
     
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  22. DDX2

    DDX2 Member

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    Graveler over Rhyhorn I understand completely, I just meant over Sandshrew, but thanks for the added info on the rest.
     
  23. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    As a side-note, Muk / Weezing are actually viable in one of the above tiers (RBY 3U) although far from good enough to be a part of the tier. Interesting Pokémon there however.
     
  24. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    In regards to Flareon, speed is the biggest factor here. It's slower than all the Waters as well as unboosted Dragonair. Psychic is just the icing on the cake, helping Magmar further against Waters with Special-drops and doing more than scratch damage to Kabutops.

    If Magneton were only blocked by Graveler, it'd be a lot better than it is. Magneton would atleast get a break now and then whenever Graveler explodes. The problem is the fact Marowak (edit: there's also Dragonair too) and Vileplume (the tier's ubiquitous status mon) exist, sometimes on the same team, and that they take scratch damage from Magneton's pitifully weak physical attacks and are immune to its STAB/resist with relatively high special respectively. Ironically, Pikachu is the best Electric-type in 5U not just for Surf, but also Seismic Toss which hits Vileplume harder than anything Magneton or Electrode can muster (outside of Electrode exploding, or Magneton getting lucky with constant critical hits).

    As further explanation for the reason why Sandshrew gets ranked while Rhyhorn doesn't, is that Sandshrew has something it can do that Marowak, Graveler and Rhyhorn can't (Swords Dance), and literally everything Rhyhorn can do Graveler does better. So that means while you might consider Sandshrew on a team to do something you couldn't with the other Ground-types, you wouldn't ever consider Rhyhorn when Graveler is directly superior. However, there are some cases where the outclassed Pokemon is still viable because they are a near duplicate of a dominant Pokemon, such as Clefable + Wigglytuff in 3U, Nidoking + Nidoqueen in 4U, and possibly Dragonair + Dratini in 5U. But with Graveler being a mediocre pick as it is, doubling up with a Rhyhorn is just a bad idea. And as terrible an idea as it is, I'd even consider Graveler + Geodude before Rhyhorn just for the explosion spam.

    Edit: Moved Lickitung from Unranked to E.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
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  25. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    The Muk/Weezing thing is interesting, part of the reason little testing has been done is that they're just not all that good despite packing decent explosions. Probably the main issue as I see it is that Weezing's extra special isn't all that useful since it just isn't all that important for how you use them imo. Although they get some nice coverage, it's still relatively easy to work around and most of the time you prefer to use physical attacks anyway. Also Muk has Acid Armor and Mega Drain (useful vs Grounds) and Body Slam, whereas Weezing has no other options available to it iirc

    Also fwiw I no longer think Wag is the best lead. I think the way the meta's developed there are too many faster physical attackers in the lead position and teams always have Seadra and/or Seaking to stop Wag if it does get going. However I think it could use more testing outside the lead position.
     
  26. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Rankings update:

    Beedrill: Unranked > D
    Electrode: D > E
    Magmar: A > B
    Pikachu: C > D
    Primeape: B > C
     
  27. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Added Wartortle and moved Tentacool from F to the potentially viable Unranked section.

    Tentacool's niche: Outspeeding Seaking, SD + Wrap, sufficient Special bulk to wall Seadra and Seaking if they don't have physical attacks, and one of the strongest attacks in the tier (Hydro Pump from 100 Special). It was put in F since I'd expected physical attacks to be common on Seadra and Seaking limiting its value as a Water-type, but since sets like STAB/Ice coverage/something besides a physical attack/Rest seems to be quite common Tentacool could prove to be a somewhat viable pick now.

    Wartortle's niche: Sufficient bulk to wall Seadra and Seaking, Counter to punish the use of Normal-type attacks (especially from Waters and Magmar), and Seismic Toss for reliably breaking Substitute and forcing Seadra/Seaking into Rest and also comes with a handy 32 PP. The only downside is Wartortle can be broken with a critical hit Hydro Pump from Seadra while Resting, but considering Hydro Pump's 8 PP and 80% accuracy, that shouldn't be too much of a worry. The most important thing though is I figured out Seaking can 3HKO Seadra and other Seaking with Tail Whip + Double-Edge allowing it to break through them. Substitute may block Tail Whip, but with an Agility boost it can hit before Sub goes up, or stall the opponent out like normal until they Rest and then hit while they're asleep and can't use Substitute. Wartortle however gets Withdraw (64 PP), which means it can stall out Tail Whip (48 PP) Seaking possibly making Wartortle its only true counter outside of garbagemons Magneton and Electrode.

    Kabutops is also still stuck in unranked, we need to get some testing on it so we can find a rank for it at some point here.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2016
  28. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    New ranking updates:

    Drowzee: B > A - For the reasons mentioned in the discussion thread.
    Wartortle: Unranked > B - For the reasons mentioned in the discussion thread.
    Kabutops: Unranked > B - Kabutops is a really scary SD user. Slash is a very powerful attack without needing any setup, and if it gets a free turn to set up it can cause a ton of damage.
    Beedrill: D > E - See above, Beedrill's niche as SD user is heavily encroached.

    Edit: Also moved Arbok D > C
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2016
  29. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    I was gonna make a massive post about shifting the whole rankings around, but I changed my mind after my set against Eni. Despite being ranked, I really think Tops could be a big deal and I'm trying to get a bit more familiar with it, so I ran some calcs on its +2 HBeam, here they are

    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Seadra: 245-289 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Dragonair: 309-364 (95 - 112%) -- 71.8% chance to OHKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Vileplume: 263-310 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Drowzee: 375-441 (116 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Poliwag: 400-471 (141.3 - 166.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Seaking: 309-364 (85.1 - 100.2%) -- 2.6% chance to OHKO
    Gastly and Kabutops check it- hooray!
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Magmar: 332-391 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- 97.4% chance to OHKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Ninetales: 285-335 (81.6 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Pidgeot: 285-335 (77.2 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Wartortle: 275-324 (85.6 - 100.9%) -- 7.7% chance to OHKO
    Grav can absorb a HBeam, but is OHKO'd if you screw up and eat a Surf
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Machamp: 275-324 (71.8 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Marowak: 223-263 (69 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Muk: 285-335 (69 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Primeape: 326-384 (97.8 - 115.3%) -- 87.2% chance to OHKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Weezing: 211-248 (63.3 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Holy hell have we overlooked Kabutops. I admit it's mostly theorymon, but it really doesn't take much for Kabutops to be in a position to OHKO everything in its path. Its defining flaw is difficulty in finding an opening, so let's have a think of some opportunities it might encounter. It can't switch directly into anything except Pidgeot so that's nice, but in addition to all of the usual means of getting a free switch (sac, predicting a switch) wrap is really bloody good in this tier- Dragonair and Ninetales both make excellent use of it, but other users are available, Arbok and Weepinbell spring to mind. It can set up against opposing Water types, with Seadra being the only one capable of 2HKOing, also they all run Rest which is too easy for Tops. Fire types are a comfortable setup opportunity, since burns are too unreliable and negated by SD anyway. Surf is pretty much useless except against Gast/Grav/Wak, maybe it can create an opening against Grav though since it achieves an OHKO there (note that both Grounds only 2HKO Tops, so if you really want to you could SD regardless of whether they're likely to switch).

    This isn't suggesting a ranking or anything, but damn we need to test Kabu more

    Also imo Arbok could be C. I definitely think it's more usable than everything else in D
     
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  30. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Yeah, we should test Kabutops more before ranking it, but I think it definitely belongs to 5U. Anyway, I think Gastly really is a staple in this tier and this would eventually come out in case we play more.
    (Kabutops' Surf is a 75% to 3HKO Gastly, leaving out CHs, Gastly 2HKOs).

    About belonging to 5U, there are more complicated cases: Arbok is decent at first glance, but it's disappointing (no stab) when it's not using Wrap on slower opponents - this includes Seadra...

    Are we including everything B and higher, get to discuss C? I think many things don't see play at all, Machamp looks pretty obvious just to mention one.
    Decinding to stop at 6U or 7U, or just go as far as we want could have an impact too.
     
  31. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    The typical position is all of B and above is 5U, everything in C is discussed or something. Anything that looks out of place you just say. I mean this meta might well have a suspect test but anyhow it's up to all of you to determine when the tier is well enough understood to have accurate enough viability rankings and be able to determine what makes up the tier.
     
  32. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    I think we need to play it more because it's very un-familiar for the way it works and we never used any of those pokemon before.
    I still don't get it, and I think I'll make a bigger effort once I'll be done with the tournaments I'm still in (procrastinating big time).
     
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  33. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Ranking update:

    Gastly: B > A - Our 5U players think it should be moved up, and I don't see any reason why not, especially with Dragonair being as potent as it is and Kabutops emerging as a big threat.
     
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  34. Peef Rimgar

    Peef Rimgar True love Member

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    Aight here's a few different noms:

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    C ---> D

    Simply put, ground types have a very hard time finding a place in 5U. The mandatory double water + Vileplume on every team render these mons just about obsolete in any high level game. Lot of given up free turns, lot of losses.

    [​IMG]
    B ---> C

    This thing is a strong 4th (technically 5th but Kabutops plays a lil differently from the other waters so I wont lump it in) choice for a team. It's niche of pressuring the other waters really isn't that worthwile, especially since Seadra itself can do that, arguably better. Enigami may have a better time making this compelling than I, but it's definitely worth consideration.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Trade Places (Pikachu ---> E, Electrode ---> D)

    This is due to a few important factors. For one, Pikachu's entire niche is that of big brother Raichu's in higher tiers, to be able to nail Ground types (specifically Ground/Rocks) with a super effective Surf, thus allowing paralysis mindgames to take place. The problem with that in this tier, however, is that ground types are infinitely more easily pressured by the ever present and practically mandatory waters and Vileplume. What makes Electrode directly better, though, is access to explosion which allows it to threaten Dragonair and Vileplume, feats Pikachu can't dream of.
     
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  35. Peef Rimgar

    Peef Rimgar True love Member

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    Did I just post here earlier? Maybe, but I have a point. I've spent a lot of time looking at this list and I just can't get over the unreal gap there is in between C and B rank. Bar Primeape, I've barely even considered (never actually found a good reason to be) using one of the current C rank mons myself (I do see they have niches, just not terribly practical ones). 5U is a fairly centralized metagame, and the VR I am proposing accounts for that just a bit better:
    S Rank

    These Pokémon are the most effective Pokémon in the metagame. Their offensive and defensive prowess, as well as versatility, and ability to fulfill a variety of important roles lend themselves to this.

    [​IMG] Dragonair
    [​IMG] Seadra


    A Rank

    These Pokémon perform significant roles in the metagame, and perform them very well, however they are not the most dominating forces.

    [​IMG] Drowzee
    [​IMG] Gastly
    [​IMG] Poliwag
    [​IMG] Vileplume (it's nuts effective at its role but it can be overwhelmed pretty easily given literally all of S-B has some way to hit it for SE damage, doesn't stand out as much as the S ranks remaining imo. I can live with our without this one, just an idea)

    B Rank

    These Pokémon are strong choices in the metagame, but perform less important roles or are less consistent than Pokémon in the Rank above. They have larger flaws than Pokémon in above ranks, or face greater competition from similar Pokémon, reducing their usefulness.

    [​IMG] Kabutops
    [​IMG] Magmar
    [​IMG] Ninetales
    [​IMG] Seaking


    C Rank

    These Pokémon are more infrequent sights in the metagame, particularly in top level matches, but are nevertheless viable Pokémon. They are less effective in the metagame than Pokémon in above ranks, but are effective with proper support.

    [​IMG] Pidgeot (maybe B still, tests have proved inconclusive)
    [​IMG] Primeape (Perhaps D?)
    [​IMG] Wartortle

    D Rank

    These Pokémon are very rare sights in top level matches, and suffer from more crippling flaws. They require a lot of support to be effective, and may have consistency issues.


    [​IMG] Arbok
    [​IMG] Electrode
    [​IMG] Graveler
    [​IMG] Machamp
    [​IMG] Marowak
    [​IMG] Muk
    I'm sure D could use a few more tweaks, but would anyone be opposed to this? Seems like a much more accurate power balance between ranks.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
  36. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Main issue I have is that Kabutops really deserves at least B. It seriously messes shit up if given an opening and it's not as though it can't be a hit and run attacker if need be. As far as setup sweepers in RBY go, this is far from the worst environment for it, with wrap support and Resting Waters everywhere
     
  37. Peef Rimgar

    Peef Rimgar True love Member

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    That's another one I meant to put a note by, mustve just overlooked

    e: went ahead and put it in B due to popular demand
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
  38. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    I wanted to wait until the end of the major league to post some suggestions but I feel like doing it rn:

    Gastly to S, like honestly I would never see myself build a team without it, it's basically the pokemon who allows Dragonair to stay unbanned. I think you pretty much have to run gastly in 5U, there's almost nothing that switches into it besides Drowzee, it hits hard, sleeps, booms, is fast, and it cockblocks a top 2 mon. I think it's simply one of the best mons in the tier

    Wartortle to C, why is it so high when you have access to seaking and wag as second waters ? It's a third class choice. Not even sure if it should be 5U

    Graveler and marowak to D, look at the mons above them, what do they switch into ? Also they're too slow has are too difficult to get in, electrics don't exist, and vileplume is fine to check those

    Now these are questions, not suggestions:

    Why use machamp when you have primeape ? speed seems too important, maybe machamp should drop.
    Muk and Arbok (i'm dumb as shit because i didn't realise it had eq when i wrote this post) when Gastly is in every team ? Meh, should they drop too ? It might end up with an empty c rank and a messy d rank but it's how 4U's viab kinda are too. It really doesn't feel like they should even be in question when asking if they should be 5u or not.

    The rest above C is I think fine
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
  39. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    What does Gastly have to do with Arbok's viability though? Arbok speed ties and has a 66% chance to OHKO with Earthquake, while Gastly only 2HKOs back. I'm not sure on dropping Arbok so I think I'll leave it at C for the moment.

    Finally got around to updating the rest though.

    Gastly: A > S - From the way 5U is looking, it does seem like Gastly is indeed mandatory on teams as both a Dragonair and Kabutops answer.

    Vileplume: S > A - Not only does it get overwhelmed as Peef stated, but Gastly and Drowzee gaining in viability and usage doesn't help either as they both threaten heavily Vileplume and also supply status which reduces Vileplume's utility value.

    Seaking: A > B - Can't think of much more to say other than it feels more accurate, just doesn't seem to have the impact something on A should have.

    Wartortle: B > D - I don't think a drop to C is enough. Wartortle seemed better when Seadra appeared to be the most important Pokemon to deal with, which Wartortle could pressure with Seismic Toss to break through Substitutes and force it into Rest quickly. At this point I believe Wartortle's much more of a niche choice. To 6U it goes.

    Graveler: C > D - Slow, a lack of Electrics to wall, Vileplume switches in fairly well, weak to common Waters of which there often are more than one on a team, and doesn't do much defensively outside of blocking Pidgeot (which isn't exactly a top threat)

    Machamp: C > D - Primeape is faster, Psychic attacks are still a thing, and the most powerful attackers generally hit Machamp's lesser Special bulk.

    Marowak: C > D - Slow, a lack of Electrics to wall, Vileplume switches in fairly well, weak to common Waters of which there often are more than one on a team,and doesn't do much defensively outside of barely being capable of switching into and beating Drowzee (assuming no crit or Spc drop).

    Pikachu: D > E - A lack of Grounds means a lack of purpose for Pika.

    Electrode: E > D - A lack of Grounds (particularly Graveler) means it's attacks aren't entirely blocked, and is a bit more free to do some damage with Explosion.

    Edit: Also, has anyone tested Leech Life Parasect yet? On paper it looks not completely terrible, though I'm not completely sure what the optimum set would be (maybe Spore / Mega Drain / Leech Life / SD or Stun Spore?). SD Leech Life Parasect can beat Gastly 1v1, preys on Vileplume and helps it against Drowzee, and a lack of Poison-typing means it can switch directly into Gastly to inflict status. On the downside, compared to Vileplume it loses some bulk, the speed advantage against Drowzee, and pretty much throws away any hope of surviving a Fire-type attack, but considering Gastlys, Vileplumes and Drowzees are everywhere and Poliwags usually run Water/Psychic coverage, I could see Parasect being a workable niche choice.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
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  40. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    On the note of parasect, you could also consider beedrill maybe?

    If someone gets beedrill to work we must get Beedrill Lord Lutra to play 5U.
     
  41. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    Some possible changes.. I don't necessarily agree with all of them but I think they're worth discussing. Talked about some of them with Peas alrdy.
    [​IMG] A -> B? is it really that dangerous? Also it's quite unreliable. Presence of double waters is an issue, etc.
    [​IMG] C -> B? Seen this putting in plenty of work lately
    [​IMG] D -> C: Vileplume is far from omnipresent now, giving it room to do a lot of damage. Dragonair checks it but hates being para'd, and Drowzee you can pressure (tbolt does a little over 30% to Drowzee too and you can crit). Checks Gastly. Pressures waters (2 mons per team at least often) and pidgeot.
    [​IMG] D -> C it seems decent.
    [​IMG] E -> D again the lack of vileplume helps it a bit. Being slow and not being as bulky as you might like bring it down a bit though.
    [​IMG] E -> D bulky enough to check stuff like gastly, pretty strong, has SD, and you can't wall it.
    [​IMG][​IMG]D -> F why use these when gastly is on every team?
    [​IMG][​IMG] D -> E not sure why you'd use them really. I mean Wak kind of checks Drowzee ok (twave immune is nice and stuff) and boom is cool but their typing just means the meta trashes them.
    [​IMG] E -> F / unranked. Electrode outclasses now.
    Some other stuff in D/E/F could move too maybe.
     
  42. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Poliwag in B I agree with, it's feeling a bit inconsistent lately, and it's not too hard to play around. Could that go with seaking in A ? (I don't necessarily think it should i'm just asking, no waters in A feels weird)

    Arbok in B too, I think it's a very good mon when played correctly, para spreader wrapper and can beat gastly. I Don't oppose to Electrode in C because it can be very annoying with the drop of plume usage. I agree with Wartortle in C, it's alright, Seismic Toss is a pretty good move to have against other waters, it dropped from B to D directly last time but i think it's okay for it to be in C

    Magneton in D i don't have an opinion, I don't have one on lickitung either. I wouldn't drop grounds just now, we have to see how the tier fares with electrode in C first, they're annoying to switch into. A comparison between the two could be made if someone has the energy to do it

    Scrapping poisons and pikachu I agree with. I'd scrap Dratini too (in E) because you prefer Arbok most of the time. Flareon and Machamp are I think "alright enough" to stay in D, but weepinbell is a question mark, I guess it's a bit more annoying to switch into than plume ?
     
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  43. Ch01W0n5h1n

    Ch01W0n5h1n Member

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    I would rather let Poli stay where it is then seeing Seaking going to rank A. The argumentation is the same as with Kanga and Persian in 1U - They are a poor mans Tauros and Seaking is a poor mans Seadra in my opinion, and Poli can achieve way more then a Seaking ever could (full para aside).
    I agree with Arbok though, it has been the most reliable Physical Attacker with Glare and Wrap which cover quite a lot in Terms of utility. Earthquakes potential chance to 2hko Gastly and carrying para that outspeed Dragonair are quite decent traits.
    I would wait for Electrode to rise up, 5u is still pretty young and Vilemplume wasnt popular for nothing.
    Same goes for Warturtle. As I do not see Seaking rising, Warturtle should stay where it is.
    Same argumentation for Magneton, if at one point Electrode should rise, Magnetons use rises too.
    I agree with Lickitung. Pidgeot faces hard times versus Gastly, Lickitung however doesnt and there isnt much to switch in that isn´t sacrificeable. It`s ability to set up Swords Dance is just something on top of that (same thing goes for Wrap, though that´s less usable since you would need para support to really get use for that).
    I agree with the last 3 Suggestions.
     
  44. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    For the changes DA proposed, most of them I have no opinion on, but I agree with Wartortle in C and dropping Muk/Weezing and I'm sceptical about dropping ground types.

    In the case of the grounds, I'd argue that recent trends have seen them rise slightly in viability- the meta has always been incredibly harsh to them, with Waters running amok, Vileplume being omnipresent early on, Dragonair packing Blizz, etc. Now there are two trends as I see it- people are less worried about running stuff that they threaten due to them being shit- Electrode, Blizz-less Dragonair, etc. This first trend I don't think is super important, this is just fluctuations that are part of them eventually settling into an equilibrium. The second trend is that we're seeing less Vileplume and much more Gastly. This means a key check is being removed and replaced with something that they're actually decent at threatening. At the moment the reason I'd use them is to aggressively check Gastly and Drowzee.

    So yeah, Wak and Grav I don't think should drop. Still undecided on ranking them together tho, since Grav's advantages offensively are immense, but Wak outpacing Drowzee is a big deal, given that that's one of their key matchups
     
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  45. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Arbok: C > B - Seems to be pretty much unanimous. I've felt it can pressure harder than Dragonair at times thanks to Glare+Wrap+Earthquake to trash Gastly. Also, yay! (probably) First mono-Poison to be tiered!
    Lickitung: E > D - I've faced off against this thing and underestimated it at my own peril. In the right situation it's pretty capable of putting in work.
    Muk/Weezing: D > E - Gastly presents a major obstacle, however Fire Blast burns keeps them from being garbage since a burned Gastly loses its capacity to wall Dragonair, so I'm not positive they're hopeless yet.
    Dratini: E > F - Definitely agree that Arbok's proving itself to be the 'other' Wrap Pokemon of the meta, so Dratini doesn't really offer much here.
    Pikachu: E > F - As mentioned before, Plume isn't as ubiquitous as before, and Grounds are quite uncommon as well, so Pika finds itself being an inferior Electrode for the most part.

    The other rank changes I think are good, but probably need a bit more time and discussion first.
     
  46. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Why is Magmar in B? Its advantages over Ninetales are Psychic and better attacking power, while Ninetales is faster, bulkier and access to Fire Spin. Access to Psychic gives it better damaging options against Kabutops and... nothing else. Fire Blast has equal damage output in every other matchup. Sure, Psychic doesn't miss and can Spec drop, but if there's no damage advantage it's tough to argue it's a significant plus. Also fwiw the Kabutops matchup still struggles to 4HKO and you can't Fire Spin out. So what of its physical attacks? Well, it doesn't have much of an advantage over Ninetales, as neither of them are particularly good with them. Virtually the only matchup where Magmar's attacking power makes a significant difference is vs Drowzee. Against Waters they both are really bad, so it becomes a moot point.

    Anyway, Magmar to C imo
     
  47. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    You're missing the Magmar vs. Poliwag matchup, which Magmar has a graet matchup with. Body Slam hits before Poliwag can use Hypnosis and threatens to cripple Poliwag with paralysis, and then if it isn't asleep by the next turn it finishes off Poliwag with Hyper Beam. That though was more relevant when Poliwag was more common as a lead, so I could see Magmar being more of a high C rank than B. Still, I wouldn't discount special drops, those can be really nasty/helpful.
     
  48. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    I'm not sure machamp / flareon should be ranked with the rest of the stuff in D right now, I feel like they're worse.

    Also, providing my g1 vs diegolh in the tour to suggest how good lickitung can be.
     
  49. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    I don't think Magmar should drop, but Ninetales could raise instead. It's a good Gastly switch-in and it will always be kind of a pain because its checks are like ultra easy to switch into, ther's other stuff you all already know, trap speed etc

    Poliwag to b ? Inconsistent, and it would make sense with a Ninetales raise

    Wak is just not good, you use Graveler if you want a ground, it hits harder, booms (btw i think sub eq bslam boom is a good set since slide inly hits pidgeot who can mirror move you at times). Outspeeding drowzee is just not relevant enough. Marowak to E. Same story with machamp, it has eq but speed hurts, slide from ape is ok enough for gastly and it has tbolt to 3HKO seadra. Flareon to E because Ninetales and Magmar are just better. Wak/Champ/Flar don't have a good enough niche to be used over what overall outlcasses them, you won't use them because they're too inconsistent

    Still going for a Tortle to C, not a lot worse than seaking for what you expect a water to do (or at least not worse enough to be 2 ranks below), stoss is a good way to avoid playing for freeze war and to get threatening stuff in quickly on the rest (trode/dnair/gastly/drowzee)

    Let's wait a bit, but Electrode COULD be C material. Weepinbell needs more testing, Enigami wants to explore Parasect, it can depend on that
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2017
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  50. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Another ranking update! Mostly just cleanup of lower ranks.

    Wartortle: D > C - Not much opposition to this, so I'm bringing it up. I'd figured after Seadra's hype faded that Wartortle would have trouble competing with Seaking for a second Water, but opinion seems to be Wartortle's still decent enough to consider.
    Parasect: E > D - From my testing so far it's definitely usable, and I think is closer to C or low B, but for now I'm just gonna get it out of E.
    Flareon: D > E - Despite its power, just too weak and slow. (That'll probably flip so hard once 6U comes around)
    Machamp: D > E - Ditto for the Champ.
    Marowak: D > E - Marowak's actually not even that great at switching into Drowzee, as it can fail to 2HKO, which means it can lose to Drowzee even if it switches into Thunder Wave if Marowak suffers a Special drop from a following Psychic, so if you're looking for something to handle Drowzee, you're better off with something that can stomach Psychics like Seaking or Ninetales, your own Drowzee, or Parasect if sleep is available. Graveler atleast walls Pidgeot and helps absorb Wrap/Hyper Beam, and can explode on things too.

    Edit: A couple minor changes were made and don't deserve their own post.

    Ponyta: F > E - It's still bad especially while Ninetales is available, but on ToxicWrap spam this can do some crazy cheezing.
    Ivysaur: F > Unranked - The only thing it has is speed, which is only relevant against the D ranked Weepinbell and E ranked Machamp. Not even worth listing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2017
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