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ADV OU (OverUsed) Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by hclat, Nov 6, 2015.

  1. hclat

    hclat Member

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    Welcome to the ADV OU Viability Ranking Thread! In case you're not familiar with the concept, we place Pokémon in certain ranks here, based on their impact on the tier as well as their general viability in the tier. This is an excellent help while teambuilding and it serves as a general outline of the tier. Furthermore it is used in our formation of the tier below.

    If you feel that a Pokémon is misplaced, feel free to make a post about it - that's what this thread is for. As long as you are reasonably sensible and courteous this thread should run smoothly.

    Pokémon are sorted into the respective categories based on how well they perform their roles. Within each ranking Pokemon are listed by their individual viability.

    S Rank

    These Pokémon are the most effective Pokémon in the metagame. Their offensive and defensive prowess, as well as versatility, and ability to fulfil a variety of important roles lend themselves to this.

    S

    [​IMG] Tyranitar - Analysis
    [​IMG]Gengar - Analysis

    A Rank

    These Pokemon perform significant roles in the metagame, and perform them very well, however they are not the most dominating forces.

    A+

    [​IMG]Skarmory - Analysis
    [​IMG]Jirachi
    [​IMG]Suicune - Analysis
    [​IMG]Swampert - Analysis
    [​IMG]Blissey - Analysis
    [​IMG]Zapdos - Analysis
    [​IMG]Metagross - Analysis
    [​IMG]Celebi - Analysis

    A

    [​IMG]Aerodactyl - Analysis
    [​IMG]Dugtrio - Analysis
    [​IMG]Salamence - Analysis
    [​IMG]Snorlax
    [​IMG]Starmie

    A-

    [​IMG]Jolteon - Analysis
    [​IMG]Magneton - Analysis
    [​IMG]Milotic - Analysis
    [​IMG]Heracross
    [​IMG]Claydol

    B Rank

    These Pokemon are strong choices in the metagame, but perform less important roles or are less consistent than Pokémon in the Rank above. They have larger flaws than Pokémon in above ranks, or face greater competition from similar Pokemon, reducing their usefulness.

    B+

    [​IMG]Moltres
    [​IMG]Flygon - Analysis
    [​IMG]Forretress - Analysis
    [​IMG]Venusaur
    [​IMG]Cloyster
    [​IMG]Porygon2 - Analysis

    B

    [​IMG]Gyarados
    [​IMG]Regice
    [​IMG]Vaporeon
    [​IMG]Raikou

    B-

    (empty until further revision)


    C Rank

    These Pokemon are more infrequent sights in the metagame, particularly in top level matches, but are nevertheless viable Pokemon. They are less effective in the metagame than Pokémon in above ranks, but are effective with proper support.

    C+

    [​IMG]Kingdra
    [​IMG]Alakazam
    [​IMG]Weezing
    [​IMG]Camerupt
    [​IMG]Jynx
    [​IMG]Houndoom
    [​IMG]Ludicolo
    [​IMG]Medicham
    [​IMG]Steelix
    [​IMG]Charizard
    [​IMG] Cacturne
    [​IMG] Donphan


    C

    [​IMG]Registeel
    [​IMG] Tauros
    [​IMG]Dragonite
    [​IMG]Marowak
    [​IMG]Umbreon - Analysis
    [​IMG] Hariyama
    [​IMG]Dusclops
    [​IMG]Rhydon
    [​IMG] Slaking
    [​IMG]Regirock
    [​IMG]Omastar

    C-

    [​IMG] Breloom
    [​IMG] Hitmontop
    [​IMG] Blaziken
    [​IMG] Gardevoir
    [​IMG] Gligar
    [​IMG]Lunatone
    [​IMG]Smeargle
    [​IMG] Exeggutor
    [​IMG] Scizor
    [​IMG] Articuno
    [​IMG] Armaldo
    [​IMG] Machamp
    [​IMG] Sceptile
    [​IMG] Lanturn
    [​IMG] Lapras
    [​IMG] Ninjask
    [​IMG] Poliwrath
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2018
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  2. Isa

    Isa Member

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    snorlax all up in S-?

    heracross in A?

    forretress at the bottom of B+?

    otherwise looks solid. C+ being 66% fire type looks funny as a side note
     
  3. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Moderator

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    The list was put together by the council, it doesn't entirely reflect my opinion so I do agree with you on lax. Heracross I feel is pretty solid A though. It's one of the most dangerous offensive pokes in the tier with very few hard counters, so better than A-, but not quite consistent enough for A+ due to the Dugtrio weakness and spikes + sand vulnerability. Forretress I can see being moved up just because it fills a fairly rare niche, but it needs a lot of support to work, making team building around it pretty limited and doesn't really offer much to a team offensively or defensively other than the hazard utility. That was the logic of putting it that low.
     
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  4. Lutra

    Lutra Site Founder Owner

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    I feel Sceptile and Blaziken should be mentioned in this, as Sceptile with leech/endeavour and Blaziken with its mixed attacking can be hard to handle, especially for new players. Plus, Sceptile was pretty common on NB. It might mean you need to add an extra rank.
     
  5. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Moderator

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    Finally got around to making some changes.
    [​IMG] S- -> A+ Snorlax doesn't really have the consistency and splashability of some of the other S ranks due to its low speed, susceptibility to residual damage, and its tendency to be difficult to get going offensively against many teams. As a result it's been moved down from the bottom of S- to the top of A+.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] -> C- It has been requested that these two should be mentioned due to their ability to threaten certain teams. I've placed them at the bottom of the rankings for now but with more discussion I could see them becoming higher.

    Concerning Heracross and Forretress I would like to see some arguments in favor of moving them because currently I'm not convinced that they are misplaced.
     
  6. prozac

    prozac Member

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    does camerupt even see ou play?
     
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  7. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Moderator

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    It's not incredibly common but it does have a niche, it's a great switch in to electric types thanks to its immunity to thunderbolt and neutrality to both hidden powers they run. Its typing also makes it a decent check to things like Celebi and Jirachi. Furthermore the combination of EQ, a fire move and toxic with the possible threat of explosion is extremely difficult to switch in to. It does have its share of problems, it's not as bulky as one would like for a slow mon and the weaknesses to water and ground really hurt it, but it's a useful addition to teams that need its unique set of traits.
     
  8. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    Hera is fine where it is, it breaks a ton but most teams pack one of Mence / Gar / Dug which usually stop it from sweeping, it needs a fair bit of support to work too. Forre fits there too

    Some other stuff:
    Zapdos should be the last A+, despite the ResTalk nerf (which doesn't render it entirely useless btw) its offensive set is sill a potent tank that threatens most of the tier and is a good pick for any team with a Cele/Cune weakness they're looking to patch. The combination of status and a powerful TBolt keeps most mons from trying to sert-up on it or anything while at worst it has BP to escape a bad match-up. It has a few flaws (lack of Specs means TBolt doesn't exactly kill everything while it can be overwhelmed by Specal Attackers), but its pretty good nevertheless. Jolt gives it competition but Zapdos' bulk allows it to counter some mons like Cune that Jolt can't really beat (if Offensive Cune CMs as Jolt switches in then it wins 85% of the time - Jolt has like a 30% chance to 2HKO vs Cune's 50% to OHKO)
    To balance this out Swampert should drop to A, its a really good tank but its popularity makes it struggle: all the physical offense teams that it's supposed to check are packing HP Grass or Toxic something to get rid of it. Though it does well on more balanced teams (esp with like Skarm / Reflect Cele / etc. to back it up) it tends to get taken out too easily vs offenses.
    Flygon should jump above Bliss and Jolt, he's got a ton of options, an amazing speed tier and a really underrated CB set (that checks a decent chunk of the tier while threatening some mons that might check it). The omnipresent threat of Toxic is also nice to take out like Pert or P2 and pave the way for TTar to sweep. Being Skarm/Gar bait sucks but you can usually deal with those.
    Maybe put Jirachi over Aerodactyl cause Aero's gotten pretty overprepared for, half the tier checks it anyways while Jirachi is pretty versatile and can threaten any team, it even has Wish to counteract Spikes and be a team player!
    Omastar and maybe Venusaur could be moved up to C (as well as maybe Steelix: I hate that thing but it IS an autowin vs offense), they have pretty solid niches that can be abused (Omastar has a superpowered Hydro and its easy to set up RD with, Venu has reliable sleep as well as checking HP Grass Elecs and Cune)
    Remove Blaziken, I feel this is kind of overrated by newer players but I don't think this is hard to deal with at all. Its lowish speed tier (80) means that Mence, Gar etc. can force it out easily if they come in for free, speaking of which it doesn't really come in on even bulky mons (especially if sand and Spikes are up). Back in the day it was a little better as people used it over Hera (or the rarer Medicham) to bust through SkarmBliss cores on its own but now no-attacks Skarm is a thing meaning that SD Focus Punch Hera has usurped that niche from it. A couple of Ken's sets are okay (like Salac+Endeavor), but overall it gets stopped by too much (it brutalises a few mons but I don't think I've ever seen a Ken weak team), and needs too much support to justify being above gimmick rank.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2016
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  9. The Notorious B.I.G.

    The Notorious B.I.G. hoot hoot Member

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    quick thoughts for move ups:

    Blissey -> A: is this thing really worse than Starmie? I don't really understand this as Blissey completel defines a playstyle and is so good n general. Minimum bump over Star IMO

    Steelix -> C+: this thing defo is better than Weezing lmao

    Blaze -> C: over Weezing and Steelix but under Umbreon

    Where s Cradily? Why are Marowak and Weezing so high?
     
  10. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Moderator

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    Commenting as myself to get some more discussion going before I make changes. Not sure how I feel about switching pert and zap, offensive zap is great and all but pert is such a great glue mon. It counters so many pokemon, one of which is the most dangerous pokemon in the metagame. Furthermore the rock resistance is so important in team building as Aerodactyl is just so dangerous without one. Honestly if i'm not using jirachi, metagross or claydol, I probably have a swampert on my team. The other thing is I feel like jolteon is giving zap a bit of competition these days. They fit on relatively similar teams and while I wouldn't say jolt is better than zap, its speed and pure electric typing give it the ability to check a number of pokemon that zap just can't. For the same reason I'm a bit hesitant about moving flygon up, flygon is quite good but I think jolteon is really good right now as well. The ability to check stuff like gengar, offensive starmie, zapdos and others is great for offensive teams not to mention it's a great spikes abuser and late game cleaner. The main thing that holds flygon below it is that it's incredibly prediction reliant with the choice band set and a bit underwhelming offensively without a band. I agree with moving jirachi above aero. Rachi is a really interesting pokemon in that it has the ability to counter things like gengar, as well as snorlax, and aerodactyl. It's got utility in the form of wish and has some nice synergy as a wish passer with bulky waters. It's also a surprisingly dangerous sweeper against many teams thanks to calm mind and its various coverage options. That body slam set is also annoying as hell.

    Blaziken I think kinda sucks but it's worth putting on the list. It's pretty hard to switch in to for a lot of teams depending on the set which is the main thing it has going for it, but like ninjax pointed out it's really frail and not fast enough a lot of the time. I think it's fine where it is. I actually think weezing is pretty good (for a c level poke), will-o-wisp is such an annoying move and it's got enough defense to put a stop to most physically offensive mons at least temporarily thanks to the threat of burn and Haze. It also has some other interesting movepool options that can give some teams a hard time coming in on it. I guess i can see steelix moving up since it walls a ton of stuff but it just doesn't do anything back and the eq weakness kinda sucks, so would need to see more arguments for this. Cradily probably deserves a mention just for its role as a belly pass recipient, probably would put it C- though as it really only appears on 1 somewhat gimmicky team archetype to my knowledge.
     
  11. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    kk, yeah, I think everything Dan said is fine. I'd still like to see Zap take the last A+ slot, as well as a reshuffling of A- (something like Jolt-Flygon-Bliss-Mag cause Bliss gets hammered a ton in this metagame). Also Steelix really should move up, it doesn't just 'wall stuff but do nothing back', it has Toxic+Protect which messes up a lot of offenses and EQ to hit Meta/Jirachi, and in any case just sitting around vs this stuff can be pretty effective. EQ weak isn't really that bad because its PhysDef is absolutely mammoth even with 0 investment, it also kicks Electrics which is huge considering how effective they are (and how people use them as the Special attacker on the offensive TSS teams/Physical Offenses that Steelix is supposed to wall). See the WCoP semifinals game between M Dragon and Fakes for an example of Steelix done right.
    I rag on Weezing a lot but it does mess up Physical offense as well as handle Hera which is rare enough, its got Haze to remove boosts as well as Burn and a good mix of attacks to keep offensive teams at bay. Marowak is meh but Rock resist is handy while it rips everything apart once passed an Agility (or just after everything else's been paraed), both should stay C
    Cradily is kinda gimmicky, there's just more things I'd use on BellyPass and SDPassing is better anyways, as is Blaziken. If you want to rank them then you could make a D rank I guess, nothing personal but imo they're just too bad for C.
    Bliss has merits but its just kinda bad in this Meta, Physical offense and TSS's screw with it while Special Offenses all have ways through it, while again all it can really do back is.......TWave. It's okay I guess but Flygon and Jolt do so much more and bring a lot more value to the table so I feel they should be higher.

    tl:dr
    A rank: Lax/Meta/Skarm/Mence/Dug/Pert/Zap (could be revisited, I think that Meta/Mence/Lax/Skarm... would be better)
    Jira/Aero/Hera/Star
    Jolt/Flygon/Bliss/Mag
    Steelix jumps to above Dusclops, Oma and Venu just below it
    D rank for Blaziken/Cradily
    Marowak stays where it is
     
  12. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Moderator

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    I agree with your A ranks, i think i'll leave the top of A+ as is for now and see if we can get some more discussion of that, but I'll go ahead and change the rest. I guess I can see the reasoning for steelix, thanks to certain metagame trends so i'll move that up as well. I think i'll leave blaziken c- for now but I want discussion on how we can fill out a D tier to add it and Cradily to in the future. To start us off I'm thinking Ninjask could be a good candidate for D. I'm the thinking the description would be something along the lines of "These pokemon see occasional use and can be effective in the right circumstances but are rarely if ever the best choice for a particular team slot."

    Changes for now
    [​IMG] A -> A+
    [​IMG] C- -> C
    [​IMG] C- -> C
    [​IMG] C- -> C
    A- rank: Blissey, Jolteon, Flygon, Magneton -> Jolteon, Flygon, Blissey, Magneton
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2016
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  13. prozac

    prozac Member

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    Camerupt is still too high. Venusaur, steelix, houndoom, medicham, wak all see more usage than camerupt, and for good reason. Tbh Camerupt should probably be below ninjask in the future D tier.
     
  14. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    Kill me now Lord

    Edit: Between SPLs 5 and 6 (arguably the highest level of modern ADV play), Medicham was used thrice, Houndoom and Venusaur twice each, Steelix and Marowak once, Camerupt was used 5 times. What was that 'Camerupt is used much less than 'insert C rank mon here', its not even as good as Ninjask' again?
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2016
  15. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Season Host

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    Hello everyone. Dan asked me to take a peek at this and give my two cents so... Here I am!

    Honestly, as far as placement, in my opinion things are overwhelming placed correctly and there is very little I could offer up in terms of changes. But, nitpicking, I do have a couple.

    -Either Regirock is too high or several things below it are too low. There is no way Regirock is better in ADV OU than Moltres, Dragonite, Umbreon, Weezing, Steelix and Dusclops. Because of how extensive this list is I'm inclined to believe Regirock is simply placed too high as opposed to other things being too low.

    -IMO Cloyster probably shouldn't be allowed in BL. Spikes are probably too powerful there and the metagame is probably a lot healthier without a Spiker/Spinner. That said, power level wise I don't think it's too good to be there.

    -Heracross is probably one tier too high and Blissey is probably one tier too low. Bliss is versatile, resilient, adds a status absorber to teams, shuts off many very high tier Pokes and can even sweep. Definitely an A tier Poke to me. Heracross flat out dies to Dugtrio and has pretty big issues with Mence and Skarm as well, both of which are extremely popular and viable. It's obviously a very dangerous Pokemon but I think it has enough counters that are very viable in their own right without being used strictly as Heracross counters that it belongs in A-.

    -I'd probably swap the places of Celebi and Gengar but that's a super minor nitpick and only my personal opinion. Those two Pokes are basically equal power level so it's really hard to strongly argue one way or another.

    -IMO Magneton should be down one tier. Narrow use, largely ineffective against teams where it doesn't trap anything important (trapping a Metagross, for example, is not generally helpful) and only helps specific kinds of teams. Having Magneton on a dedicated stall team or a Calm Mind offense team, for example, wouldn't help much. Super high upside of course but enough drawbacks and counters to be lower I think. It also is entirely walled by at least 2 Pokemon on basically every team.
     
  16. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Moderator

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    It's great to see you here! I agree with pretty much everything you're saying.
    I can definitely see regirock dropping a bit, it's decent for exploding on waters but doesn't do much else.

    From a 2u perspective I haven't found cloyster to be too overwhelming, in fact the more I've played the tier the less impressed with it i've been. Cloyster is certainly on the borderline between being full fledged 1u and 2u, but ultimately we decided to put it in 2u and it hasn't been too disruptive there so I'm inclined to keep it.

    I am definitely in agreement on heracross and blissey. While blissey certainly has some flaws, it's also a one stop shop for countering so many threats so I can see it moving to A. It's mostly certain metagame trends that have been keeping it down, namely the high prevalence of physical offense. Heracross is dangerous as ever, and just about the best thing to bust holes in an opposing team, but as you mentioned quite inconsistent so I'd be open to it moving down.

    On the subject of Celebi and Gar im inclined to keep them where they are. Offensive spikes based teams are everywhere and Gengar is an automatic pick for those teams. Furthermore its explosion is an incredible asset for almost any special attacker. Celebi is of course amazing as well but I think recently gengar just slightly edges it out.

    Magneton I can see dropping to b+ as you said it only fits in a few archetypes.

    I'm going to wait and see if we can get any more comments before I move anything around, but I should make some changes coming soon.
     
  17. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Moderator

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    Alright well no one commented but made some changes anyway. Hopefully this will start some discussion.

    [​IMG] A -> A-
    Heracross is very dangerous but just not very consistent. Lack of speed and vulnerability to residual damage mean it doesn't have a ton of chances to get its offense going, meaning the few things that can kinda sorta put a stop to it are often enough. That being said it is still incredibly strong as a wall breaker, and the salac sets are some of the best for winning seemingly lost games so putting it at the top of A- for now.

    [​IMG]A- -> A
    Blissey has a number of flaws however it is just about the best blanket answer to special attackers in the tier. There are a number of dangerous offensive pokemon that just get all their forward momentum completely sucked away by it, and teams revolving around these attackers need to have a game plan for it. It's also capable of crippling some of the physical attackers trying to take advantage of it thanks to its status moves and the rarer counter. Even seismic toss can sting a little bit for stuff like tyranitar and metagross on the switch, especially if there's spikes down. It's not for every team but it always puts in work when it's needed. Putting it at the bottom of A rank for now.

    [​IMG]C+ -> C
    Regirock just isn't quite on the same level as the other stuff in C+ and there are a number of pokemon in C that have a more valid niche than it. Moving it just below Dusclops for now. One step closer to a 100% fire C+.

    [​IMG], [​IMG]
    Opting to keep these where they are for now. Cloyster just has a ton of problems with toxic skarm and gengar. It has a niche for sure but I don't think it's quite as solid as the stuff above it. Magneton has pretty limited usage, but it is very good right now. Skarmory is incredibly strong at the moment, and a lot of offensive spikes based teams have a hard time switching in to magneton. The toxic protect set in particular is really solid as it prevents choice banders from revenging it (Besides dugtrio obviously). I'm still open to moving it down but I want to see more discussion.

    There are a couple other things I'd like to know other people's opinions on:

    [​IMG]
    Zapdos' thunderbolts are stupid strong and it does a ton of cool stuff but I'm kind of feeling like it's not really A+ right now. It doesn't do as much defensively as I'd like. It kinda sorta answers a lot of things but doesn't really provide a solid counter to many things so I find it a bit hard to build around. There are also a number of things that can prevent it from accomplishing a ton offensively.

    [​IMG]
    I might be pushing it with this one but I think Jolteon is really solid right now. It benefited a lot from the loss of sleep talk zap and kinda fills in a bit of that void. It's great for offensive teams that need a way to handle gengar, offensive starmie and electrics, and it's just such a great spikes abuser. It can also do some other cool things like passing wish. It has nowhere near Zapdos' power but with spikes down it can be pretty potent offensively. I can see it moving up to A but I'm not super confident in that opinion.

    [​IMG]
    I don't think this thing is really worthy of the top of A+. It's good but I feel like Mence, Skarm or Metagross would be better there.

    [​IMG]
    I feel like Jirachi just puts in a ton of work in every game it's in. Its typing is amazing and it's just so versatile. Duggy weakness hurts it but I can see this moving up to A+

    [​IMG]
    I think this thing could be higher within B+. It's a really solid status platform and a great answer to things like mixmence which a lot of teams have trouble with. Bulk + Recover + Pure water typing also just makes it really tough to kill giving it a lot of chances to get off hypnosis and toxic.

    [​IMG]
    I wasn't super impressed with this thing before but I can kinda see it in C+ now. It's great against electrics and Aerodactyl, and solid against stuff like tyranitar, snorlax and metagross. I don't love that it's kind of a free switch for gar and skarm though.

    Feel free to discuss your opinions on these, and if you feel anything else deserves to be moved then by all means bring it up so we can discuss it!
     
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  18. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Season Host

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    I agree with the large majority of what was said.

    A- is the correct place for Heracross. It's too powerful/threatening to be in the B tier but it has enough weaknesses/risks/drawbacks to not be a pillar in the gen, which basically all the Pokemon in A and above are.

    Under that same logic, Blissey definitely belongs in A. She's absolutely a gen 3 staple, always has been and always will be.

    Regirock I commented on before and don't have anything new to say. I agree with you moving him down. Personally, I think he should still go down one more. I have a really hard time seeing him as better than Weezing, Dusclops, Steelix, Umbreon, etc. To me he's a notch below that kind of Poke.

    Regardless of whether he's allowed in BL or not, Cloyster is definitely a B tier Pokemon as far as OU is concerned. Therefore, regardless of the magical OU vs BL line, I believe he is where he belongs. Forre is largely accepted to be just better almost always.

    I still think Magnet is B+ as opposed to A- but I won't repeat the list of reasons from before.


    Addressing NEW stuff...

    Zapdos to me is an A tier Poke. The Rest/Talk set being significantly weakened, if it's even viable at all anymore, definitely hurt and in my opinion bumped it down a notch. That said, it's still a great Poke and very commonly seen, albeit in different forms than before, in competitive play. I think A is the right spot. On a related side note, I think Dugtrio belongs in A as well. A+ is a stretch for a really hit or miss Pokemon that is mediocre and in some cases really poor in certain matchups. Great Poke, like Zapdos, but not solid/consistent/format shaping enough to belong in A+. A+ and above should be reserved for the premium Pokemon that the format revolves around.

    Since I see Zapdos and Dugtrio as A tier Pokes, I couldn't justify moving Jolteon into A. I see it, while definitely the best right now it's ever been, as a notch below those two for sure. I think A- is the correct spot for it at this time. In past iterations of the metagame it probably belonged in B+ but right now I think A- is the correct spot and I cannot imagine it could ever truly be better than that.

    Lax is ABSOLUTELY an A+ Poke. I'm not sure of the order within the tier (personally I think Swampert should be atop this tier) but it's definitely placed correctly.

    Jirachi for me is the toughest one out of everything discussed. To me it feels too good for A and not good enough for A+, but there is obviously no in between. All things considered- its excellent typing, it's plethora of viable sets (there are AT LEAST 3 completely unique kinds of sets that are viable, nevermind small variations within those sets), its excellent stat distribution, the fact that it will virtually always have an impact on any game, the fact that is checks so many important Pokemon... I'd have to lean toward moving it up to A+.

    My Milotic comment basically mirrors my Lax comment. It's definitely in the correct tier at B+ but I'm not sure about the order within the tier. Of note, I DEFINITELY think Forre is too low. I think Forre is the best Poke out of those listed in B+ by a pretty clear margin. Forre might even be A- for me but at very least it's clearly the best, in my eyes, out of the B+s.

    I support Steelix to C+. It's a notch above the things listed. On that note, Omastar is too high. Does that exist, AT ALL, in OU? Omastar is C- at best to me and not even high within that tier. I don't see it as OU viable at all, even as a niche Poke.



    One final note... Why do I have a Mew avatar? I didn't pick that or put that there =p
     
  19. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Moderator

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    Just to be clear I do definitely believe Lax is A+, just not the very best of A+. Pert mence gross and skarm are all ahead of it imo. Anyway, yeah dugtrio is definitely something i'd be open to dropping from A+, and I agree that the B+ tier needs to be reorganized a bit. Forre and Milo should be at the top in my opinion, not sure exactly how to order the other 3.
     
  20. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Mew is the new default avatar so everyone without an avatar has a Mew.
     
  21. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    Hm, good points.

    Zap is kind of underrated atm - the ResTalk set may be nerfed (its still borderline usable), but even the offensive sets can do so much with Toxic and Thunderbolt - which is absolutely terrifying on a Modest set. It also does solidly check or switch into a ton of threats like Metagross, Gengar and Suicune which can be huge, and can even stave off Rock type-attackers with cool tricks like Protect (which pairs very nicely with Toxic). It has its issues but it's still pretty solid and merits a spot in A+. Jolt is also super-threatening in the same vein - being faster compensates for being weaker - and it handles a lot of major threats like Offensive Starmie and Gengar. It also has a few interesting things that Zapper doesn't (WishPassing is amazing), that merit it to be A rank.

    Lax I agree - it is definitely an A+ poke but it should honestly be near the bottom of that (Above Zapdos and Dugtrio, around the same level as Pert). Salamence, Skarmory and Metagross are all more-consistent and individually more terrifying, even against teams that theoretically handle them. As a side note Jirachi is a threat and should move up above Lax / Pert in A+ - being a Rock resist is huge and it has a zillion options to screw with teams while checking everything in a pinch (kinda similarly to how Metagross does).

    Milotic is fine where it is, maybe it could go above Gyarados but idc. Cloyster should drop, it struggles to do a lot beyond Spiking which Forret and Skarm do better anyways.

    I hate Steelix, always will but I do respect its really solid niche - it may be fodder for stall teams and Gengar but it just says screw you to offense so well - especially seeing as how just sitting around vs stuff like Metagross, Tyranitar, Snorlax, Zapdos, and Aerodactyl can be huge. It should go to mid C+.

    To CALLOUS, Omastar's niche is being a rain dancer that gets slightly better set-up options than Kingdra and Ludicolo (Rock typing has its edges), while being ridiculously strong. It has flaws but is definitely a C+.

    Edit: I also propose we add Hitmontop and Cacturne to the list, Cacturne around C- and Hitmontop at high C to low C+. For rationalisation - All Gens - Underrated Sets | Page 2 | Smogon Forums
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2016
  22. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    [​IMG] maybe this should be at at least the bottom of C-. Sapientia's been using it and I also made a team with it. It reliably covers Electric-types (HP Grass chunks it though); SubCM Raikou can be an issue but 252+ Surf breaks +1 4/0 Raikou subs; my set is Toxic / Dual STAB / Ice Beam. It also does a fair bit of the bulky water stuff although its ground weakness means you can't really use it as a long term metagross switch-in, ddtar check, or aero check. Also it's Duggy weak. But yeah basically it's a fairly reliable answer to all the Electrics that also checks cune pretty well [you still 3HKO with Tbolt vs +1 SpD 252/0 Cune for example, and takes jack from +1 252+ Hydro] and gengar [shouldn't be used as the only check - other than explosion, giga drain annoys it, as does hypnosis, but it takes boltbeam very well, hits moderately hard in return]. Has the advantage vs all the waters in the tier, so basically it's a water/electric answer that checks gar but is duggy weak. So I think it has some kind of a valid niche in the tier enough to warrant C-.
     
  23. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Moderator

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    Made some updates based on you guys' comments.

    [​IMG]
    Dropped Snorlax to be just below Swampert in A+. Lack of speed and reliance on bulk coupled with its vulnerability to residual damage makes it less consistent than some of the other things in A+.

    [​IMG]A+ -> A
    Dropped Dugtrio into A due to its lack of consistency in certain matchups.

    [​IMG]A+ -> A
    I know there was some disagreement on this but I really don't believe it is quite strong enough for A+. It is extremely strong as mentioned but unlike some of the other A+ mons it just doesn't provide as much defensive support to a team. The things it takes on like metagross have the potential to severely hurt it with moves they run relatively commonly, and I wouldn't really call this a good answer to gengar since offensive variants can be 2hkod by ice punch. It's great but it just needs a bit more support than some of the other A+ mons.

    [​IMG]A -> A+
    Moved this up to A+ as everyone seems to be in agreement. Very consistent and has a number of offensive and defensive uses.

    [​IMG]
    Moved this up just above Starmie. Doesn't need as much support and is just generally a lot more consistent. Actually considering maybe moving Starmie down to A-.

    [​IMG]
    Keeping this where it is for now, there was some disagreement on its placement and I feel inclined to see if we can get some more opinions before I decide what to do with it.

    [​IMG]A- -> B+
    While it is quite good right now, as CALLOUS mentioned its niche is just a little bit too specific for it to be A- so dropped into the top of B+.

    [​IMG], [​IMG]
    Moved these up higher within the B+ rank as I feel the are just a bit more solid than the rest of that rank due to reasons mentioned previously by myself and Forretress' valid niche as one of the tier's best spikers.

    [​IMG] C -> C+
    Moved this up to C+ due to its solid defensive niche.

    EDIT: forgot,
    [​IMG]
    Added Lanturn to the bottom of C- as requested by Disaster Area
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2016
  24. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Also these pokemon are missing... :)
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  25. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Moderator

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    Ah yes good point, where do people think these should go within the tier rankings? I personally see Hariyama as C or C+ and Articuno as C- but I want to get some sort of an idea of what other people think before I add them in.
     
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  26. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    Hariyama C and Articuno C- seems fine for what they do.

    Hitmontop for C+ it's amazing.
     
  27. Ugly Duckling

    Ugly Duckling Member

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    Hi everybody! I'd like to throw my two cents out there, because this is a really interesting topic.

    S Rank:

    It is what it is. They're the four best Pokes in the tier, Suicune's usage notwithstanding. You can nitpick the order, but at the end of the day, these are the clear top four choices in the metagame.

    A Rank:

    I honestly think Swampert should be the number one Poke in the group. He's just that good and that vital to the current metagame. Where to begin? He is the number one check to Tar/Gross/Mence/Aero - in other words, the best four physically offensive Pokes in the metagame. Don't get too caught up in my phrasing. I know Milo is by far the best Mence counter (by virtue of it walling all varieties), Steelix might be the best Gross counter, Hariyama/Hitmontop may be the best Tar counter (more on this later), and on and on. But Pert is an incredibly safe and reliable initial switch in any time you encounter a dangerous physical sweeper. Yes, everything and their mother is carrying HP Grass and/or Toxic these days, but players familiar with the metagame will check for the opposing Poke's surprise moves before they let their Pert take it. When you're team building and realize you're Aero weak, you basically add Pert or a defensive Jirachi and call it a day.

    To me, Snorlax is a touch too high. He is still an A rank Poke, but his Curse set has really taken a huge hit with the prevalence of Sandstorm, and his now more common utility set is actually pretty easy to dance around until you know the full set. Because of the Curse set taking a hit, 90%+ of Lax no longer carry Rest anymore. This means he's not the special wall he used to be (Bliss/Regice fit that role much better now) but more of a pivot who comes in, tanks a Starmie Hydro Pump, and threatens with a strong attack afterward. Still a great choice for bulky offense, or even all out offensive teams, but not what he used to be. I would suggest mid- or even low-A rank for him.

    B Rank:

    Nothing too much of note here, other than I think Forry/Milo/P2 are the class of this group. It's a nice bunch, with pokes who fit certain roles really nicely. For instance, Regice is a great Gar/Celebi counter, Claydol is the only Spinner with an immunity to Spikes (Delibird, lol), in addition to being a solid Rock resist, Gyarados is unique in that traditional bulky waters who counter most physical threats don't really counter Gyara, Vaporeon is the only bulky water who can Baton Pass, and on and on.

    C Rank:

    We're getting into the more niche section of ADV OU here. I want to comment on a few pokes in particular though.

    As has been previously mentioned, Camerupt is a really solid Electric counter today, and the combination of Fire + Ground STAB and Toxic is extremely hard to switch in to. He uniquely fits the role of Electric/Gar/Celebi/Rachi counter better than anyone I think. Even Regice can't beat Sub CM Raikou, for instance. Camerupt at least deserves consideration for low-B rank.

    Houndoom is an interesting Poke in that he is probably the single best Gengar counter in the game. A set with Fire Blast/WoW/Pursuit/Crunch, holding a Lum Berry, and EV'd to survive three max SpA Gar Thunderbolts is as close to a guaranteed Gar removal as there is. Unfortunately that's the beginning and end of it for Houndoom. Pursuit Tar is almost universally the better choice as Gar remover, because he actually provides additional utility, whereas the best Houndoom can do is fire off a WoW or two. So depending on the community's agreement of Houndoom's ability to remove Gar, I think he is a candidate for low-B rank.

    Anyone who knows me knows I can talk for days about the merits of Venusaur. He's just such a solid poke, capable of walling Electric pokes for days (even HP Ice variants can only 4HKO outside of sand, while Leech Seed + Sludge Bomb makes it even less likely they win the hypothetical 1v1 matchup). Sleep Powder will always be an amazing move, and he can really force a lot of switches with the threat of Sleep and Leech Seed. He even gets Roar and Light Screen, for what it's worth. Pair him with Swampert and you have a solid defensive foundation for a Spikes team. People always compare him to Celebi and come to the conclusion that he's just a worse version of that top tier threat. My rebuttal - I disagree 100%! Pros of using Venusaur over Celebi: Sleep Powder, Toxic immune, no 4x weakness (can't be Dugtrio'd at >55% HP), beats Sub CM Raikou (Celebi needs Perish Song). Cons of using Venusaur over Celebi: literally everything else.

    But seriously, give this Poke a try if you're ever up for trying some less common Pokes. If it were up to me, this would be a solid B-tier Mon. But I know I'm one of the few who holds that opinion and Venu is one of my personal favorites, so take everything I just said with a grain of salt.

    I need to weigh in further on the new additions. Let me start with Hariyama.

    I've been playing Hariyama teams a lot lately, and I am a huge fan. For starters, Knock Off is an absolutely OP move. The second you remove Skarm's Leftovers, you've essentially put it on a timer. Lead Hariyama with a set including Counter, Knock Off, and Cross Chop, and turn 1 you've either scored a KO by Countering Mence/Gross (yes, Hari can survive CB Mence HP Fly at full), Knocked Off a crucial item, or killed the dumb Tyranitar that stayed in. Speaking of Tyranitar, Hariyama has a strong case as the best Tar counter in the game. With Thick Fat, Hari resists everything that is normally found on Tar, barring a super weak HP Grass, and EQ. The best thing Tar can ever do is hit Hari with a CB EQ for a 3HKO, and Hariyama requires 0 Attack investment to always OHKO with Cross Chop. In normal battle situations, however, Hari will Knock Off a few key items, in which case he has done his job in spades. I think this guy is an easy nomination for C-rank, if not higher.

    I saw Cacturne mentioned previously, and I have to agree that he deserves a mention in OU. He is the rare Poke who's probably better in OU than he is in any other tier. Sand Veil is flat out broken, he can Sub Seed for days on Blissey/Snorlax, he destroys mono Psychic Celebi, and he gets Spikes to boot. Not a bad Poke at all, and worthy of a C-ranking in my opinion.

    Random thoughts:

    I don't see Scizor, Armaldo, or Machamp mentioned anywhere. I realize they are very niche Pokes, but if we're ranking Registeel, then these three probably should be listed somewhere. It's not like Agility/Swords Dance/Silver Wind/HP Rock Scizor isn't capable of destroying some teams, Armaldo has a nice move pool, and Machamp fills a similar role as Rhydon.

    Jynx will always be under appreciated. It threatens a sweep turn one vs. slower teams without two of Steel type/Thick Fat poke/Blissey in their lineup.

    That was probably the most I've written in a single sitting since high school. I know a lot of it wasn't exactly discussion of Pokes with respect to which tier they belong, and I rambled a bit about certain guys, but that's why we love the game, right? Thanks for anyone who had the patience to read everything and let me know what you all think!
     
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  28. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Moderator

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    Added in the following Pokemon

    [​IMG] C
    [​IMG] C+
    [​IMG] C-

    If anyone has any disagreements with the placement of these then please bring it up, placed them largely based on my own opinion and I'm very open to moving them around a bit.

    In response to Ugly Duckling, I'd just like to say thanks for your comment, you bring up a lot of points I'd like to discuss.

    A Ranks:

    I have a hard time definitively ranking the top 4 A+ mons. I can definitely see the argument for Pert being number 1, but the other 3 are also just so good that it's really hard for me to say. Salamence is an amazingly versatile offensive pokemon with great defensive utility as well, and intimidate is always amazing to have. Metagross is an amazing wall breaker and has the same awesome typing jirachi has. Skarmory is the best spiker in a fairly heavily spikes dominated tier, and also a solid physical wall. I think it would be great to see some more discussion on how these pokemon should be ranked.

    I still see snorlax as an A+ mon despite the fact that it is certainly less consistent than it used to be. It's not so much a wall as it is a great offensive pivot vs a number of special attackers which gives it an incredible niche on bulky offensive teams. It has an very powerful boom, that means it will pretty much always have utility and more often than not goes at least 1 for 1 when using that move. The old curselax build is also still solid, especially with trap support.

    C Ranks:

    I'm inclined to leave the C ranks you mentioned where they are for now. Camerupt I do think is quite solid especially with how scary gengar is right now, but its dugtrio weakness is a serious issue, and it is forced out by quite a few common and dangerous pokemon. Venusaur and Houndoom again are both solid but they have competition in their niches from very good pokemon as you mentioned which limits their usage. They do definitely have advantages over those pokemon in certain situations though.

    Unranked:

    I definitely see all of these mons as deserving to be ranked. Cacturne is quite annoying and I can see putting it in C+ tbh. The rest I think have more issues, so I'm thinking C-, but all valid pokemon to use in this tier. Let me know what you guys think and I'll add them in!
     
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  29. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I think hound has one additional use in that it's a fair bit more reliable than pursuit tar versus celebi, particularly the non-BP variants. Obviously its duggy weakness and the existence of BP sets limit it a whole lot more here though.
     
  30. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Moderator

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    Yeah, the ability to take on celebi and jirachi is definitely one of the the advantages it has over pursuit tar. It also doesn't care so much about gengar's status moves due to early bird and its fire typing, has more power which is really helpful vs bulky gar who pursuit tar sometimes fails to KO. Furthermore it doesn't set up sand which can be beneficial for some teams, or alternatively it can free up tyranitar to run a more aggressive set than the pursuit set. It has a number of advantages over pursuit tar, but it still receives a ton of competition from it, which combined with a few flaws like its frailty keeps it in C+ to me.
     
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  31. Ugly Duckling

    Ugly Duckling Member

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    I agree with both your points re: Houndoom. His Dugtrio weakness combined with his horrific defenses really limits his usage, though he does still do a better job at beating Celebi and Jirachi than the typical Pursuit Tar does.

    The biggest issue I've noticed with Houndoom is that what he accomplishes seems most necessary on bulky Spikes teams. But he doesn't actually have great synergy with a lot of the Pokes found most commonly on those teams. For instance, he doesn't put up Sand, he has the aforementioned Dugtrio weakness, he adds a Water weakness (something those teams don't really enjoy, especially if their bulky water of choice is Swampert), and on and on. So while I stand by my earlier statement that he's the best Gar remover in the game, I think finding the right team that needs what he does hinders his utility.

    I'm just spitballing right now but I'm thinking specifically of a bulky, non Spikes, physically offensive team where nobody wants to take Gengar's status moves and you don't want to use Lum Berry Psychic Metagross, something like that. So yeah. Still a solid Poke and does some really cool things, but hard to find the right team for him. Sounds like a C+ Poke to me.

    Never thought I'd write that much about Houndoom lol. Thanks again for reading!
     
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  32. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Season Host

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    I still think Pert is the best A+ and Dugtrio is the worst A. I have a REALLY hard time saying Dugtrio is better than Blissey. That just feels really, really wrong to me. Likewise, Duggie is better than Aero? Noooo way. Duggie belongs at the bottom of A. MAYBE above Starmie, maybe, but none of the others. I really don't think Dugtrio is that great anymore. But definitely definitely definitely not better than Blissey, ever.

    Commenting on what Disaster Area said, I agree. Both Hariyama and Articuno should be somewhere. A lot of the lower stuff, like C+ and below, I disagree with. Are Camerupt and HITMONTOP of all things truly better than Articuno? There is nothing you'll ever say to me to convince me Hitmontop is better than Articuno. Absolutely no way no how.

    Definitely liking the changes we've been making recently. Granted, the list has to always be updated as the metagame changes, but there is still a general right and wrong at any given time and I feel we're getting closer. :)
     
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  33. Bill Shatner

    Bill Shatner Member

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    On the viability ranking I think Celebi > Gengar.

    On the coolness rating Gengar >>>>>>>>> Celebi
     
  34. Bill Shatner

    Bill Shatner Member

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    As far as Articuno, I would rank it above Hitmontop and Hariyama. Cuno can do a lot of what Zapdos does in terms of phazing special attackers, has a little different niche but can do it quite well. The fighers are much more situational and have much smaller roles IMO.
     
  35. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    Hitmontop is literally the hardest Tyranitar counter I've seen in all my years - plus it checks Aero (everyone uses HP Bug), Heracross (Intimidate cushions every move it has and HP Flying smacks it), CM Blissey and maybe Snorlax. Intimidate and Spin also do work vs a lot of stuff, while it doesn't really lose to anything (Celebi, Jirachi, Special Offense in general, Meta rocks its world). It's not super great (maybe more high C than the bottom of C+ even though its definitely better than Hariyama) but its niche is pretty solid especially in this metagame. I do agree though that Articuno should be higher than it is.

    Swampert is by no means the best A+ - Metagross, Skarmory and Salamence are all more individually gamebreaking than Pert (so is Jirachi, but that's another thing entirely). On paper, Swampert checks so much, but in practice it gets worn down by teams with even paper-thin ways of dealing with it (CBTar Focus Punch does 60+% on average, Mence can Toxic or HP Grass, so can Electrics or Metagross which can just power through it with CB and a MM attack boost). It does things (SubSalac Endeavor coming to mind), and sitting around vs offense can be huge, but it also gets abused by a lot courtesy of its weaknesses and offensive deficiencies (like Forretress sits on it). As a side note I think everything from S to A- is fine.

    Camerupt is definitely the best 'nichemon' (and there's an argument for it to ascend to B-), it just does a ton against special offense while being really hard to switch into (I don't think there's a single mon that wants to switch into all of Fire Blast, Earthquake AND Toxic). Speaking of which I think that if it does go up it'll be on Toxic, which does a lot (especially in clearing a path for say DDTar) against all of the things that supposedly check it (bulky waters, Salamence, Flygon and Dugtrio (btw 3 months ago I achieved the dream 'that I'll Toxic a Porygon2, hit the Dug switch and get enough consecutive Protects for it to succumb to the poison.'). At the least it should stay where it is and discussion should begin on it moving up.

    Edit: Some other thoughts:
    Jirachi over Snorlax, it can just do anything for a team, utility checks everything in a pinch with the right moveset (even if just by sitting around and refusing to die while chipping away with burn or something) and Wish is just great (especially seeing how it can counteract Spikes and give some longevity to offensive builds). Also its an offensive threat by virtue of either CM + coverage or just CB Doom Desire shredding a poor switch-in (like if you throw in Flygon or Dugtrio with a stall team into it something's biting the dust).

    Jolteon at least above Heracross, maybe to the last A slot. Similarly to Jirachi it's versatile af and pretty threatening. Toxic + Wish + SubPassing and all the other shenanigans it can pull are great while it provides a solid check to Gengar (assuming Ice Punch doesn't freeze which is absolute garbage) and Offensive Starmie.

    Camerupt to B-, see above.

    Moltres above Steelix, both are cool but Moltres just has a better threat factor while being a solid Celebi check and threatening Physical Offense with WoW. Don't forget it can Pass Agility and Subs too!

    Maybe Alakazam to the bottom of C, like Superachi it runs through so much and being a solid Gengar check is nice (especially seeing as how Synchronise can punish statusing).
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2016
  36. Ugly Duckling

    Ugly Duckling Member

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    Still agreeing with Callous here regarding Swampert. This Poke is flat out metagame defining. His mere existence is the reason so many random offensive Pokes have to split their EVs and sacrifice a valuable moveslot with HP Grass. I don't think the CB Tar Focus Punch argument works, since with the right move, CB Tar 2HKOs everything in the game as far as I know. The same applies to CB Metagross spamming Meteor Mash and landing an attack raise. Skarmory, Forretress, and Suicune don't like taking those +1 CB MMs either, whereas at least Pert can retaliate with a STAB EQ of his own.

    By usage, Swampert is S-rank. By effectiveness, he's almost surely top 5 in the tier. In the end, this is a subjective list, but I just can not see Pert being ranked any lower than the 5th best Poke in the metagame.

    Re: Dugtrio, and to a lesser extent, Magneton. These two will always be hard to rank. On one hand, they are metagame defining Pokes who everyone must account for in the team building process. You simply can not build a team with 6 Dugtrio weak Pokes, likewise you can't build a team with both Skarm and Forry (there is a newish TSS team bouncing around that uses both of these Pokes) without including Dugtrio to remove the opposing team's Magneton after your first Spiker is killed.

    Magneton takes out two arguably more important Pokemon than Dugtrio ever will, but how valuable is the ability to remove any grounded threat in the game as long as it is lower than 40% HP? Both are game breaking Pokes for sure. I do agree that Dug is worse than a few of the Pokes he's ahead of, but overall can't complain too much over either of their placement.

    Articuno is certainly a cool and effective Spikes abuser, as well as a nice special wall, as Bill mentioned. He's rather annoying to face too, especially the Heal Bell variants. Seems like a high-C ranking is deserved here.

    Hariyama is still a better Tar counter than Hitmontop by virtue of being able to always OHKO in return after tanking whatever Tar throws at him.

    0 Atk Hariyama Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 469-552 (116 - 136.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    0 Atk Hitmontop Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 329-388 (81.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    216 Atk Hitmontop Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 408-480 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Once you get your (Hari/Hitmontop) in, no Tar is ever staying in. So would you rather your follow up move be Knock Off or Rapid Spin? Top isn't exactly the best Spinner in the game and Knock Off is a devastating move. I know what I'd choose here.
     
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  37. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Moderator

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    With respect to the Swampert argument I can see it going either way. Swampert counters a wide range of very dangerous threats and is arguably the best counter to the best pokemon in the metagame. You can argue that it has more defensive utility than just about any pokemon in the game. It is almost always a useful addition to just about any team, and is almost mandatory on some. This is why its usage is so high. You can just slap it on a team and have a one stop shop to covering a lot the most dangerous physically aggressive pokemon in the tier. At the same time though it does have flaws. Most of these flaws stem from its lack of an offensive presence. You can weaken a Celebi to about 50% and it can just pop in any time on a Swampert and recover its way back up. Gengar can come in very safely on anything other than a water move and force it out with either giga drain or will-o-wisp. Defensive suicune switches in no problem, and offensive ones can take advantage of pert in a pinch as well. These are 3 out of the top 4 pokemon in the tier and not things you want to be giving free turns to. The big thing though is it is huge spikes bait. All three of the main spikers in the tier can come in and set up on it very easily. In the case of Skarmory and Cloyster they are almost free. This is further compounded by the fact that swampert absolutely hates spikes. The question then to me becomes more about the other contenders for that spot. Skarmory is extremely solid, being the best spiker in this tier is huge, and it's got an amazing defensive typing. Whirlwind and Toxic alleviate some of its offensive issues. The problem for me with skarmory is that magneton makes it very unreliable defensively. If skarmory is your only answer to something like curselax then you're probably going to lose to curselax. The spikes are huge utility and if it wasn't for mag I could see skarm being S but as a result of magneton i'd definitely put skarmory behind pert. Metagross has great offensive and defensive utility. It's one of the best wall breakers in the game thanks to that explosion, it definitely lends itself to more offensive playstyles though, and swamperts utility on virtually all forms of teams puts it ahead imo. The one for me that seems most likely to compete with swampert for that spot is Salamence. Like metagross it has amazing offensive and defensive utility. It is arguably the best Heracross answer in the game, and intimidate is an absolutely amazing ability that if played correctly can get the salamence player out of a lot of sticky situations. Because of this salamence will pretty much always be useful even if it fails to do much offensively. That being said though, Choice Band and mixed mence are some of the best wall breakers in the game, mixmence especially with the right prediction can absolutely decimate a ton of common teams. Furthermore Dragon Dance is an amazing late game cleaner. This one is arguable to me because while swampert is able to find itself on a wider variety of teams, salamence is constantly useful and much more versatile.


    As for the other stuff, I'm comfortable moving dugtrio down below blissey. I definitely agree with the points made on that. Camerupt I definitely see in C+, Gengar is extremely dangerous right now and it makes a nice niche for itself by countering it along with a few other things. It's been solid every time I've used it. I'm comfortable moving Hitmontop down, I mainly put it there because of that mcmeghan team. I do believe you guys are underrating the utility it has in intimidate though. I really don't think articuno is as good as some of you guys are saying. The sleep talk change really hurt its viability as it basically just has to rely on raw rest for recovery which is not ideal. It can do some cool stuff but it's not even close to as good as it was before those mechanics were implemented. It doesn't really do the zapdos thing anymore all that well. To be fair though zapdos doesn't really do the zapdos thing anymore.

    I'll be making more changes soon based on you guy's responses.
     
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  38. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    rank donphan cacturne slaking breloom
     
  39. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Moderator

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    Alright went ahead and made some big changes based on you guys' comments. Let me know if i forgot anything! I had a lot of very detailed comments to go through which is awesome but I may have glanced over something.

    A Ranks:

    A+

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Changed the order based on you guys' comments. It seems like most of you want Swampert in the first spot and I definitely think this is an arguable position even if I don't 100% agree so added that in. I definitely think Salamence is the next best thing though, as I mentioned in my previous comment so added that in second. I agree with some of Ninjax' and UD's comments on Snorlax and Jirachi so I put Jirachi above Lax.

    A

    [​IMG]
    Moved Dugtrio down below Blissey in agreement with Callous' comments. It is very dangerous and has an incredibly important niche on some teams, but it just isn't as consistent in certain match ups as Aerodactyl and Blissey.

    A-

    [​IMG]
    Moved Jolteon above Heracross. I strongly agree with Ninjax on this one. It has a great defensive niche, and a lot of cool tricks up its sleeve. Baton Pass is an amazing move too and it makes great use of it. I feel like I might be biased on it however so I want to get more opinions before I see about moving it up to A.

    C Ranks:


    C+

    [​IMG]
    Keeping this guy where it is for now. I'm a huge fan of this poke, but it does have flaws. I think the most prevalent one is the Dugtrio weakness, The things it counters best, Gar and Electrics, are quite commonly paired with Dugtrio which makes it a bit less reliable as a counter to them, especially when the two most common electrics carry baton pass to get Dugtrio in for free. If we get more opinions expressing for it to be moved up I am open to this however.

    [​IMG]
    Moved Moltres above Steelix as requested. It has a very strong offensive presence with Fire Stab and Will-O-Wisp. A very good anti-meta poke.

    [​IMG]C+ -> C
    Moved this guy down to C due to general consensus.

    C

    [​IMG]
    Moved this guy up due to general consensus, I'm not a huge fan of it anymore but I can see how I was underrating it before.

    [​IMG]
    Moved this guy up as well. It's really solid with its bulk and access to Sleep Powder + Leech Seed as UD has shown me on multiple occasions. I can see it moving up further if I get more opinions.

    C-

    [​IMG]C- -> C
    Agreeing with Ninjax on this one. It's fast, powerful, has great coverage, Calm Mind and a few nifty tricks. It's also a solid Gar check.

    Unranked

    [​IMG] -> C-
    Added this thing in to C-. It can baton pass agilitys and swords dances and the reversal set is actually pretty scary in the late game but there are a lot of things that put a stop to it.

    [​IMG] -> C+
    I'm kinda surprised we didn't already have this thing ranked it's pretty cool. Amazing subseeder that takes advantage of pretty much all the slower bulkier things in the tier. It's a great spikes abuser, and can even set up the spikes itself which is a pretty cool niche considering how poorly distributed spikes are. I might be overrating it though so If people want it moved down I'm open to that.

    [​IMG] -> C-
    Machamp is pretty strong but mostly outclassed by Hariyama so I put it in C- for now.

    [​IMG] -> C
    Slaking is just about the hardest thing in the game to switch in to, but truant combined with its spikes + sand vulnerability does hold it back. Truant basically forces it to switch out every other turn so along with the obvious drawbacks to that it also gets worn down really quickly so putting it in C for now.

    [​IMG] -> C
    Donphan makes a niche for itself as a solid rock resist with access to rapid spin. It has more attack than claydol and no bug weakness which makes it a much more reliable answer to Tyranitar, however it is a pretty poor rapid spinner. Bulky Gengar deals with it pretty well, and as a rock resist it is mostly outclassed by Swampert so putting it in C for now.

    [​IMG]-> C-
    Armaldo has a lot of cool tricks up its sleeve, it has Knock Off, Rapid Spin and solid dual STABs backed up by an amazing attack stat. Its speed and common weaknesses definitely hold it back though so putting it in C- for now. I can definitely see moving it up though.
     
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  40. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Season Host

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    I strongly disagree with basically this entire paragraph. I don't see Hitmontop as OU viable AT ALL. It's simply not bulky enough and takes too much damage from basically everything. I don't view it as a reliable TTar counter either, as it is hit by sand, hit by Spikes and doesn't just shrug off EQs that it switches into. And TTar is one Poke. It takes heavy heavy damage from a plethora of other Pokes. It's HP is way too low. I think the Poke is complete garbage and has no place whatsoever in competitive OU. Also, I disagree with the statement about Aero and HP Bug. I think HP Flying is significantly better and likely still more popular too.

    Swampert is a top 5 Pokemon in ADV OU. It is so ridiculously important to the metagame that all the random things using HP Grass do so solely because of Swampert. Swampert is not supposed to be "gamebreaking" and it doesn't need to do anything flashy- it's just the sturdiest, most reliable/dependable answer in the entire metagame for all the best physical threats, including the single most powerful Pokemon of all- Tyranitar.

    Dugtrio takes out Tyranitar and Celebi. Those are two of the top three Pokemon in the metagame. Nothing Magneton takes out is more valuable than either of those.



    After reading your post I've concluded you and I see this format very, very differently...
     
  41. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Season Host

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    You know I support this ranking :D Most underrated Poke in the entire game.
     
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  42. Ugly Duckling

    Ugly Duckling Member

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    Callous, I probably need to amend my previous statement. What I was trying to get at was that if you have a team with five super Spikes/Skarm weak Pokes, you can add Magneton in the sixth slot and call it a day. However, if you have five super Tyranitar/Celebi weak Pokes, you can't just add Dugtrio and call it a day. I worded it poorly in my original post, but that's what I meant by "Mag takes out two arguably more important Pokes than Dugtrio." In the case of the first team I described, Skarm is the most important Poke for you to deal with, and Magneton fully remedies the issue. So, bad phrasing on my part, but I hope I've clarified things a bit.

    For the record, I think Dugtrio is quite a bit better and more useful than Magneton in terms of ranking them.
     
  43. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    Just calced and CB Tyranitar does 25% average with Earthquake to Max / Max Hitmontop. +1 Blissey 3HKOes with Thunderbolt while being 2HKOed back. Heracross' Focus Punch after Swords Dance is barely a 2HKO (and it shouldn't even be able to Focus Punch assuming you switch in as it SDs). As a side note Adamant Aero HP Flying is a 3HKO as well (feel free to calc this for yourself, just remember Intimidate exists!). It's not a flashy pokemon but it's got a solid niche and can check a number of things that usually require 2 or 3 mons to check, and C seems fair. Edit: Well the tab refreshed when I went back to it so I guess the reason for failure is lost to history :(, but yeah Hitmontop still does work (also if you don't switch in on Heracross as it SDs then you must really suck at this).

    In response to Swampert one would think a top 5 mon should be gamebreaking, especially seeing how teams that crutch on it tend to get overloaded pretty easily. It may be the go to check to physical mons but that doesn't make it the best, and certainly shouldn't make it the best A+ (considering how much better Metagross and Salamence are in practice). Being fodder for Spikers and Gengar is one of the worst things a mon can be in this metagame (offensive waters too - Suicune and Starmie take a free ticket to stomp city off Pert).

    I think A+ should be reordered with Meta-Mence-Skarm-Jira-Pert-Lax. Anyone saying Metagross is not a top tier threat is out of his mind, but we all know what it does - utility check to everything in the tier with solid bulk and boom (speaking of which gs made a defensive Psych Up set meant to trash DDTars and CurseLaxes attempting to sweep, which was pretty solid ngl), it can Pursuit Gengar (which everyone loves), and of course open a hole in a team with the right set. Just does work, game in game out (if you struggle with making it work either you're just unlucky with MM accuracy, facing an abnormal amount of Dugtrios (which can be a positive considering how you can pack P2 and DDTar) and/or just not doing it right). Salamence is equally top tier of a threat, it's a little lower cause it has to run from waters which Meta can usually unload on, but yeah, amazing Physical and/or Special Attacker, best (common) Heracross check, generally can do something with Intimidate and it's many options for either breaking or sweeping. Mixed set is a top notch breaker while CB and DD are as good as ever, while Wish makes for a cool tech.

    Also:
    1 | Tyranitar | 42 | 67.74% | 57.14% |
    | 2 | Metagross | 26 | 41.94% | 57.69% |
    | 3 | Snorlax | 25 | 40.32% | 40.00% |
    | 4 | Swampert | 24 | 38.71% | 45.83% |
    | 5 | Gengar | 23 | 37.10% | 52.17% |
    | 6 | Celebi | 20 | 32.26% | 50.00% |
    | 7 | Salamence | 18 | 29.03% | 55.56% |
    | 8 | Skarmory | 16 | 25.81% | 43.75% |
    | 9 | Magneton | 14 | 22.58% | 50.00% |
    | 10 | Milotic | 14 | 22.58% | 50.00% |

    Statistics from the recently completed Smogon World Cup. Note Metagross' high usage and winrate.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2016
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  44. Ugly Duckling

    Ugly Duckling Member

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    Agreed on Metagross being a top-3 A rank Poke for the number of amazing things he can do, which you described well. But I'm still on #TeamSwampert for that number 1 spot.

    Back to the Hitmontop issue...

    I'm gonna trust that you probably were just having some issues with the damage calculator, but those numbers seemed too good to be true.

    -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 163-192 (53.6 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    (Also important that if Aero is going to use HP Fly vs. Hitmontop, it probably switched in to him, negating the Intimidate)

    -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 91-108 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage

    You're right. He does tank these for days. Impressive. My only issue, however, is the following:

    0 Atk Hitmontop Hi Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 329-388 (96.1 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

    Hitmontop would need to switch in at full HP on the CB EQ, take another one before he can attack, and then only have a 75% to OHKO on the following turn. It's probably still good enough, but it is a slight mark against him.

    +1 252+ Atk Heracross Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 293-345 (96.3 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

    This is the scenario where Heracross already Swords Danced once and Hitmontop switches in on the Focus Punch. Heracross is strong.

    I really think you just forgot to include EVs or something when you did some of those calcs. It happens man! I still like the idea of Hitmontop and Intimidate is an awesome ability. Will definitely have to try him out sometime and see how he compares to Hariyama.
     
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  45. autumn leaves

    autumn leaves Member

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    the point is that while hitmontop doesnt take immediately huge damage from tyranitar, he will do nothing to the opposing team in return because it is pitifully weak with no coverage and will eventually succumb to repeated assaults. he is also going to have a lot of trouble being any good at spinning without help. not that intimidate isnt great and all and it helps you pivot around a lot of shit but he needs a real big supporting cast (I would say wishrachi/blissey are just about required, as well as a skarm killer) to make his good points stand out. brick break/hp ghost/spin/toxic probably isnt the worst thing in the world, if you have a pursuit tar hp flying is fine but using rest just seems like a good way to make a bad poke even worse. maybe counter could be alright too for meta/gon/aero.

    dont think cuno is usable without restalk roar and like top, it doesnt do enough damage + gets worn down by everything ridiculously easily in sand (and its synergy with the wishers/clerics is very suspect) so I would personally take it off the list

    pert is the go-to physical check because its the best lol. it holds off some of the best pokes in the tier better than anything else while doing at least okay damage to everything. its hardly even skarm fodder in a sense because hydro pump fucking stings it, which is also why gengar doesnt exactly waltz in. like really I use swampert an unhealthy amount (personally I enjoy not getting creamed by ddtar/aero) and its not flawless obviously but my god how anyone can say this poke isnt among the best of the tier really blows my mind. it actually does damage back, which is something that cant be said for steelix (also eq weakness, its tough but not immortal) or claydol or whatever. plus endeavor is great. tldr swampert is amazing, he doesnt win games necessarily but he helps you not lose them and get to the winning situation better than just about anything

    moltres is great but it does not get baton pass

    Your team was rejected for the following reasons:
    - Armaldo's past gen egg moves Knock Off, Rapid Spin do not have a valid father.
    this is why I'm not too fond of armaldo. I was excited to try him a few months ago until I found this out. cest la vie

    think you guys are a little harsh on regirock, who I think is incredible, but its not that big a deal

    toxic protect donphan is pretty great, might even be worth ditching spin (I know a few guys like triangles have)

    camerupt is good too

    looks like I'm off to make a lanturn team to see how good it is o_O shame it doesnt get heal bell yet
     
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  46. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I was actually running a set of Ice Beam / HP Electric [for Gyara / Skarm] / Heal Bell / Roar as a Celebi check / Gyarados answer / general all-round supporter. It didn't perform amazingly but even if it's like bottom of C- rank I think it should still be ranked. I think Sapientia was using it recently too? (maybe a different set though)
    Let me pass you 5 to get started xD
     
  47. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Season Host

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    This^

    I feel EXACTLY the same way. Listen to the mighty BKC people...
     
  48. Sharingan

    Sharingan Member

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    Ignoring the fact that there is no sense in this type of rankings to me, S+ Tyranitar is kinda exaggerated.

    Tyranitar is RSE, not as a sweeper, as a centralizing power. And it's not better than Celebi as a Pokémon. Celebi can do everything. Plus, Zapdos maybe deserves A+, and maybe even S as a Pokémon. Even with the nerf of that sleep mechanics that killed adv, you are forced to use a beller btw.
    Offensive Zap is still a very strong sweeper, especially with Spikes.
     
  49. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Season Host

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    I don't want to go too deep into the first part, but I think it's near-universally accepted among the best players in the world that tiers DO exist and that there IS legitimacy to this kind of list.

    I don't think TTar placement is exaggerated at all. The metagame more or less revolves around it (as well around the constant presence of sand that it brings) and it is, by a significant margin, the most powerful offensive presence in the metagame.

    As far as being forced to use a Heal Bell effect... No? The overwhelming majority of competitive teams used by the best players in the world do NOT use a Heal Bell effect. In fact, it's extremely uncommon these days.
     
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  50. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Moderator

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    Yeah im agreeing with CALLOUS. TTar is by no means as good as GSC snorlax or something but there is definitely a clear distinction between it and the other S ranks which i believe justifies the S+ ranking. It is almost certainly better than Celebi. Celebi is versatile but Tyranitar not only has the most dangerous sweeper set in the game, it also can do a number of other support things for a team. It's one of the only viable pursuit users, and by far the best, it can perform a number of defensive roles with roar sets, and it makes for a great wall breaker with Choice Band and sub punch sets. Furthermore as CALLOUS mentioned sand is a HUGE factor in the metagame. It's incredible support for stall teams, as well as a number of the faster cleaners in the tier. It also does a lot in limiting some very dangerous pokemon like Suicune, Snorlax and Heracross.

    As for the other points, I believe Zapdos is fine where it is. The offensive set is very good, but it often can be difficult to build around due to some of its defensive drawbacks. I just see all the A+ pokemon as more versatile and often more crucial to a team's success.

    Finally, heal bell definitely isn't mandatory ADV generally plays fast enough that you're better off just dealing with status instead of wasting turns and move slots trying to get rid of them. There are of course exceptions, but a large portion of teams function just fine if not better without heal bell support.
     
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