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GSC OU (OverUsed) Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Lojh, Sep 26, 2015.

  1. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    Innstead of ranking teams, we should rank ideas. Would be super controversial tho.

    I do believe this, and as a resident staller, i agree with each and every word. However, this may not be how everyone else feels and suicune is exclusive to stall and has zero splashabilty.

    Also on a side note, missy doesnt deserve to be in the same rank as starmie and umbreon, and dragonite is ranked WAY too high. This merits conversation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
  2. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    Well from there i still believe the ranks are currently a little mess, you can argue that Meganium or Moltres are D rank stuff but i really don't believe they should be under Quagsire, on the same rank as Sandslash or Nidoqueen at all.
    The same goes to Rhydon, Golem Jynx on pair with Tentacruel or Jolteon.

    Some pokemons are just proven, solid and have their good usage in very important battles, 100 times better and more used than any other of the same rank, they just can't be threated as Kingdra.

    Another prime example has been Lavos winning about 4 matches from spl to wcop with Charizard, again i know how much weak it is, how much support he ask to be worth it, but do you really wanna tell me that he deserves the rank of Quagsire, Espeon or Smeargle?

    My suggestion would be to rank again from C to D all of them because they currently don't make much sense, and this time stop using the rank's description to justify atrocities as Nidoqueen=Moltres
     
  3. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Starmie's weird in that it's an okay Water (Recover and screws Machamp) but as a Spinner it doesn't really work in the meta. I agree on Dragonite but I think Borat is high on it for some reason.
     
  4. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    Actually, starmie is the reason stalls run missy. Starmie is an excellent spinner and with a beller it can be a nuisance to many stalls or teams that like spikes up. Screwing Machamp is a rather large feat and should not be taken for granted.

    When you say this do you agree dragonite is too high up or think it should stay where it is?

    Also, things that i feel should be raised/dropped in the higher-mid tier range

    Jynx > B-
    Rhydon > B-
    Dragonite>C+
    Smeargle > C+
    Tentacruel > B-
    Starmie > A-
    Misdreavus > B-
    Blissey > C+ (Is way to high for a do nothing pokemon that is just inviting monsters like machamp and snorlax and (insert physical attacker here) to come in and wreak havoc)

    And D & E ranks are extremely messed up so i will need help for those.

    Also, i have seen a few recommendations to give cloy it’s own rank. I like that idea personally, but then forry should raise too because it is a toxic immune spiker that can both boom and spin.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
  5. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Surely missy should be above the rank with like Jynx and Rhydon are in? Missy is a staple on stall teams and is fairly reliable... I just would think that would put it above Rhydon, Jynx, Tentacruel...?

    Also surely Blissey is better than Tentacruel :L
     
  6. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    Missy is a unitasker and doesnt even do that job well. It can block forry’s spin, but thats about it. With spikes and prior damage it’s frailty shows. Blissey is severely outclassed by raikou as a special wall and miltank is a much better beller. Tentacruel is a menacing sweeper and can easily 6-0 teams with the right support. Rhydon is one of the best physical walls in the game and has an above average attack unlike the others. Jynx, as Ch01w0n5h1n taught me, completely rips apart offense and with a freeze, can completely annihilate stall.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Okay, sure, you've got a team with Starmie and it's running Spin. There are two cases:

    1) You have a Spiker.
    2) You don't have a Spiker.

    In case 1 Starmie is struggling to be worthwhile, because both common Spikers can Spin and the improvement from Starmie's Spin over theirs isn't worth a whole Pokemon. In case 2 you have no Spikes and are either a bad team or shouldn't be bothering with the Spikes game at all. That's what I mean by Starmie as a Spinner not really working in the meta. If you're running Starmie, it had better be for the Machamp and generic-Water utility, not for Spin. Starmie above Forretress (with Giga Drain you can actually get 1/0 vs. Cloy; Starmie literally cannot do better than 0/0) and Miltank (you talk about bellers? This is the only good beller) is insanity.

    Dragonite is too high.
     
  8. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    Dragonite is going to be dropped, and Rhydon is going to B-. I am considering moving Jynx and Tenta up to B- too. Also leaning towards a Blissey drop.

    I do see your point with starmie, as it is just adding more electric weaknesses and it’s spin not very useful, but case 2 seems flawed as teams with wak NEED a spinner but not always a spiker and most of them love starmie.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
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  9. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    You have a point on Wak; I didn't use it or see it much back when I played so I kinda forgot about it. Still, at that point you're weighing up Starmie vs. Spin Cloy and that's not necessarily an obvious decision since Spikes are still an advantage over no Spikes.

    (You could also run Rest on Wak, though you need a Beller or Sleep Talk to make it decent.)
     
  10. Sceptross

    Sceptross Leader

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    [​IMG] C -> B-[​IMG]

    Tentacruel can run two sets: Rapid Spin and Swords Dance (unfortunately it can't run both at the same time).

    Tentacruel has a big advantage over Starmie, Cloyster, Forretress, Donphan and Golem as a spinner - it beats any set of both of the usable spikers. None of the others achieve this. This means that if you use Tentacruel as a spinner, Spikes will be out of the field if you want them to be. Period. Unfortunately, due to not being able to run Swords Dance and Rapid Spin at the same time (and not having any decent threatening options in its movepool), this means that everytime it comes in it you will be instantly forfeiting any momentum you may have - which it not exactly ideal in a spinner either. While not A material, it's still a great spinner that should always be considered, specially in stall teams.

    The Swords Dance set can be very dangerous. This thing is very fast (speed ties Miltank and Zapdos), has Surf to make stuff like Steelix think twice before coming to phaze it and Sludge Bomb's poison chance is great too. Royally screwed by stuff like Raikou and Gengar and struggling to get past Skarmory (only 23% to 3HKO) are its main problems, but it can still be really dangerous with its speed and ability to boost its attack so quickly without becoming slower or sacrificing HP.

    All in all a great Pokemon, definitely has its place in OU and should definitely rise in the rankings.


    [​IMG] D -> C+ [​IMG]

    Another Pokemon that you don't see very often but performs its role well. Meganium has one purpose: support. Most commonly seen running a moveset in the likes of Synthesis, Reflect, Razor Leaf, Leech Seed, it does a great job at Reflecting in front of any physical attacker except Heracross, something Raikou struggles more with due to not having instant recovery and Earthquake being so common. Grass is also a great type defensively, resisting Ground and Electric moves (and although most electric type move users run coverage, it's usually weak coverage in the form of Hidden Power). The excellent screen support it provides is great for stall teams, who appreciate it to control a threat for some time, or sweepers, who may use the turns to set up a sweep to win. Underrated, fun Pokemon.

    [​IMG] C+ -> B-[​IMG]

    Jynx has one interesting niche over other sleepers - it screws up the most common sleep blocker, Zapdos. This means that Jynx is more likely to put something relevant to sleep. 110 base Special Attack is no joke either, with a great duo of STABs to work with too. It's also able to run Thief and steal an item from a counter - something like a Snorlax is a perfect Thief target - as well as Substitute to play mind games and shield itself from moves. Not the easiest Pokemon to use but it has its place in OU for sure.

    Golem might deserve a rise to B- too - it's actually a good spinner, I just haven't used it enough to feel I can write about it. Charizard also seems better that the rest of C-, maybe it deserves C+? Not very sure on this one though.
     
  11. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    Unfortunately, it does literally nothing against setup mons as it doesnt force many pokemon out. Synthesis has 8pp, which severely hinders it’s potential. That said, it outperforms many D mons but probably deserves C-.

    I will move jynx up because of popular demand, and tenta fits in B- too, so up they go.


    Also, I really feel that blissey is too high as it is outclassed by raikou and/or snorlax.
     
  12. Sceptross

    Sceptross Leader

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    Ok, I'm perfectly ok with C- having that in mind.

    About Blissey, 100% agreed, let it burn in C lol. But maybe I'm too biased because of the 1100 ladder heroes that use Blissey and Skarmory because "GSC is a stall gen".
     
  13. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    Dropping Blissey, and will raise meganium if it gains more support.
     
  14. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    This isn't really true. Leech Seed is a massive pain for setup 'mons, and Meganium can counter-setup with screens. Stuff like Rhydon and Steelix absolutely is forced out, because even if Meganium doesn't run an attack they can't break it and Leech Seed is stealing health they can't get back. Electrics are totally walled if you have Light Screen - you barely even need Synthesis - and you can choose what you want to use to hit back.

    The lack of Synthesis PP (and even Leech Seed PP) is a huge problem for Meganium, certainly, but as a wall there's very little else wrong with it (you can lay Spikes on it or Spin, but that's about it). Jorgen really said it best:
    I'd actually recommend Meganium more for an offense team than a stall team. Meganium is a button you push that says "your momentum is dead, my turn to try something", and it's a button you can push on an awful lot of things.



    It doesn't really compete with Snorlax; it liberates Snorlax from Electric duty, allowing you to use a more offensive set. Raikou's the one overshadowing Blissey, and Blissey does Bell. It could probably fall a bit, but not a lot; it's miles better than everything in D (except Meganium, which should probably rise a little).
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
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  15. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    Raising meganium, also I’m taking a three week vacation, so i may not be able to update this thread that often
     
  16. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    I'm on shady India WiFi so I can't edit the rankings page, will note down worthy arguments and consider them after my vacation. Mobile PP sucks btw.
     
  17. nicky

    nicky Member

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    It's a bit insulting to see where Quagsire is placed (toe to toe with Kanga, and below Muk).
    • The thing has positive matchups against some of the most commonly seen mons (Electric, Nido, Tar, Gengar).
    • Set diversity between sleep talk and belly drum (which is more than you can ask from a lot of the other mid-low tiers).
    • Makes a naturally good pairing with Forretress.
    Gengar Ice Punch vs. Quagsire: 85-100 (21.6 - 25.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Nidoking Earthquake vs. Quagsire: 113-133 (28.7 - 33.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Tyranitar Crunch vs. Quagsire: 109-129 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- 81.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery


    Yes, it GETS walled as easily as it does walling itself, but the value it can bring to a team core (especially 2x flying-type ones) is unmatched by any peers it is currently listed next to. Unlike Kangaskhan to Lax, Clefable to Lax, and Meganium to Eggy, Quag is not just an inferior Steelix. Opens up totally different ways to build with the strong defensive typing and movepool. I thought the era of ignorance was over.
     
    Lojh and deluks917 like this.
  18. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    Quag Is flames, no doubt about it. The lower tiers are still a bit screwed up, so they do need fixing. The problem you've found is actually kanga being too high. Quag is on par with other monsters in it's tier such as charizard and clef. Kang needs to move down, its kinda bad as a curse roarer and doesn't fit on teams.

    Also, I saw you insult muk. Muk is an amazing poke and with its moveset can rip holes through the mightiest of stalls.

    Meganium and eggy play so differently its not even funny. Clef also plays differently from lax. Quag has blissey syndrome where it shuts down a lot of pokes but also gets walled hard. I guess drum can be theatening, but depending on the set it gets forced out and with chip it dies too easily. It literally has two sets, and diversity is nonexistent as the sleep talk set doesn't need to be considered as a pokemon (free switch in for literally anything)

    However, kanga sucks. Recommendations on how hard I drop it?
     
  19. nicky

    nicky Member

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    I created a tier list chart similar to the style of fighting game tiers. I made Y-axis = power, X-axis = versatility.
    It's a lot nicer to look at and gives a better idea of how the meta looks (at least in my opnion) than scrolling down a standard list, such as the one on the OP. It's not perfect yet, but maybe it could be an imporvement to the gen thread. I'll post it if we're interested in discussing.
     
  20. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Well, we sure can't discuss it if you don't post it :p

    It's worth looking at, though I doubt it'll be officially adopted.
     
  21. nicky

    nicky Member

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    With and without sprites - Album on Imgur
    Fairly certain high power (both offensive and defensive) is more valued in the gsc meta, so the colors reflect that, making those mons in the top-left midsection closer to the green. My expectation was not to take over the thread with this, but to add a new perspective & dimension to tiering.
    It may look 'sloppy' at first glance, but it actually looks better this way than with smaller icons + a bigger grid; I tried it both ways. Plus, it's the way the other games do it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
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  22. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    You could make a new thread, I’m sure most people prefer the simpler viability rankings and then analysises of the specific pokemon, which does take longer but is more informative.
     
  23. nicky

    nicky Member

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    Yeah, the chart way might be more for newer players because it is visually telling what parts of mons are good for what reasons, which can help their starting point.
     
  24. asbdsp

    asbdsp Member

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    Cool concept nicky. It really helps give an intuitive idea, which just reading lists can not help you with. Drawing helps me, but I don't think anyone wants to see my abstract art looking charts, lol.
     
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