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GSC OU (OverUsed) Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Lojh, Sep 26, 2015.

  1. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Alright, done.
     
  2. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    I disagree. Making mistakes helps you learn.
    Smeargle is a good passer and BP can be game. Does depend somewhat on SleepTrap vs. SleepPerishTrap ban (SleepTrap + Baton Pass is scary).
     
  3. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Well as the rules stand it isn't that great. I've never seen a good Smeargle user. I've seen a good player or two lose to smeargle but it was less about the smeargle player being good and more about his opponent not taking this really gimmicky strategy into account when team building. Idk whether Smeargle has any great potential or not but I know that Spore/agility/baton pass/whatever strategy rarely works on good players and is mostly a gimmick.
     
  4. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    should Typhlosion be added? I saw Bomber use it last SPL

    on that note this list probably merits being revisited
     
  5. Ch01W0n5h1n

    Ch01W0n5h1n Member

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    I don´t think the decription of "they are not often seen in highly competitive play" is suiting for Jynx. It has seen use in a lot more matches than that (The MT on which Jynx Teams won, I remember seeing finals with it on Smogon too, FOMG used it succesfully in WCOPP, and probably a lot more matches which I can´t specifically recall right now), and thus, would support to move it up to C.
     
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  6. sulcata

    sulcata Member

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    I wouldn't call Marowak a B mon, definitely more of an A. It performs as well as Machamp and doesn't need to rely on shitty accuracy (at the cost of not being able to crit lax).

    Heracross is scary good too, I'd place it at B+ rather than B-. Way better than Jolteon, Blissey, etc.

    Golem and Jynx should probably be moved at least into C. Jynx's standard set is pretty well proven and the Rapid Spin Golem set is quite good in its own right, letting cloyster run explosion without forgoing the ability to get rid of spikes. I wouldn't say either one is super consistent/good in all matchups, but they're always a threat.

    Idk why there's a D- or E rank though, seems pointless lol.

    edit: Typhlosion has more merit than most of D-
     
  7. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Yeah I don't recall why D- and E exist. I guess it doesn't hurt to have something where people can post stuff if they think of a theoretical niche for something, but otherwise yeah they're pointless.

    Gonna go ahead and implement all of the proposed changes.

    I haven't played GSC in ages though, it might be best if someone took over this thread from me

    edit: now C is bloated, I might split it up into +/- edit2: done, probably got a bunch of stuff wrong but oh well.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Having D and E existing makes my usage stats prettier.

    Maybe just put the pokemon in there in the spoiler.
     
  9. FriendOfMrGolem120

    FriendOfMrGolem120 aka. "FOMG" Member

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    I personally would go even so far and put Jynx into C+. It is one of the best BL pokes in my opinion and many offensive teams struggle dealing with it.
    If I had to drop one pokemon from C+ to C- it would most likely be Kangaskhan.
    I also support Heracross moving to B+. It is a very good Nidoking and Marowak check, is threatening against many pokes that are not called Zapdos or Skarmory. And even they are no hard counters. Zapdos could lose to Cursevariants if it is already sleeping and doesn't get any good Sleeptalk rolls and a Skarmory that just had used Rest can't switch into Hera with S-Toss because it gets 4HKO'd (1 attack on the switch in, 2 attacks while Skarm is asleep and Heracross would outspeed it on the next turn when Skarm would wake up).
    I don't know where I'd put Marowak. B+ seems fine to me but I wouldn't mind it beeing in A-.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2017
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  10. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I realise now I only changed C ranks and bumped Jynx. Implemented Hera and Wak rises. Swapped Jynx and Kanga.

    I reviewed D rank and realised the gap between D- and D+ was far greater than between D- and E. I also think the pokemon in D+ are noteworthy, at least I'd consider running them on a team. So I dumped D- into E and hid it all in a spoiler. Let me know if that's too harsh on anything
     
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Should Scizor really be E? It's seen occasionally on baton pass teams
     
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  12. FriendOfMrGolem120

    FriendOfMrGolem120 aka. "FOMG" Member

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    Scizor is commonly used on a standard baton pass team (Smeargle, Scizor, Jolteon, Marowak, Machamp, Snorlax). I have seen that team a couple of times in high level play - not that often but I don't recall Scizor beeing really used on a different team. I have tried that team out in some friendly games with sulcata for instance and I don't think that I have ever won with it. I named that team "Will it ever win?" in my teambuilder so I am definitely biased about Scizor.
    Still, maybe it could be moved up to D but then what about Aerodactyl? Bomber used that poke in ou. What about Entei? Giara has used it in ou. What about Jumpluff and Kingdra? They were used by Conflict.
    But to be fair, I think that BP team with Scizor is more used than the other pokes and Scizor is a rather standard component of that team while the other ones are more or less gimmicks.
    I don't have a clear opinion whether he should be in D or E but I think he might rather belong into D even though I personally would prefer many E pokemon over him.
     
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  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Where should Articuno and Poliwrath go...? Contact used them in the WC...
     
  14. Contact

    Contact Under The Sea Member

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    mm poliwrath shouldn't really be ranked but cuno definitely should be ranked somewhere lol.
     
  15. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I kinda don't really like the argument that "notable player X used it once, therefore it shouldn't be E". If a pokemon were literally never used, it would probably be unranked, rather than E. Furthermore, making such conclusions seems like more of an exception than a rule- you're taking a one-off instance of a pokemon being used and drawing a general conclusion without explaining why that one instance is representative of a general characteristic of that pokemon.

    Although I'm covering a bunch of points with that complaint, I guess Scizor falls outside that, as it's not so much "player X used it once" but instead it's a component of a single well established team, which is still a bit specific, but is still more general than the other cases described.

    Contact, what do you like about Articuno?
     
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  16. The Notorious B.I.G.

    The Notorious B.I.G. hoot hoot Member

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    no move kanga back to C please.
     
  17. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    It's not an argument just a point to start a discussion and get someone else talking on the thread :)
     
  18. eden's embrace

    eden's embrace YOU ARE MY DESTINY Host Emeritus

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    what does articuno even do...it literally just sits there and gets nothing done, i mean you are free to rank whatever you want but its clearly pretty bad

    i don't play gsc too much but there's definitely a difference between stuff like amphy,kanga which are rarer, but have some niche; and stuff like poliwrath/xatu/entei/articuno and stuff, don't clutter up the VRs with stuff that no one is gonna seriously use, i guess is what i wanted to say. it really clutters stuff up, things like magneton,victreebel etc being there, ik its E rank but can someone show me the last serious OU game they saw featuring some of this stuff?
     
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  19. sulcata

    sulcata Member

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    I agree that E rank is unnecessary clutter. Just because other mons are UU or BL or w/e doesn't mean they need to be listed. This isn't an in-game tier list. We don't need to list every mon just because they have some super niche viability.

    That being said, Ampharos doesn't belong in E rank. It can tank hits from electrics and has t-wave with very good coverage moves for hitting lax, egg, and steelix allowing it to spread para decently. I'd put it in D rank. Idk who moved it, pretty sure it wasn't E rank before.
     
  20. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Yeah it was D-, and so it got dumped down to E when I shuffled that entire subrank down. It's back in D now though
     
  21. BaSr

    BaSr Member

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    I may ask, does the original post get updated sometimes?
     
  22. autumn leaves

    autumn leaves Member

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    things that shouldnt be e: donphan (eq/spin/2 of toxic roar encore is a great set, helps against a lot of annoying stuff, its eq smashes snorlax), kingdra (terrific mixed wall and para spreader), nidoqueen (legitimate defensive niche), sandslash (mini marowak)

    maybe not jumpluff and venusaur as well but i feel less strongly about those

    and i assume poliwhirl is supposed to be poliwrath lol
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
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  23. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Nah, Poliwhirl is Poliwhirl. Damage caps out at 999 anyway, which Whirl can achieve. Base 90 Speed > base 70 is important. I nearly swept Alexander with it when I used it but kept getting unlucky with Lovely Kiss misses.
     
  24. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I'll keep updating it until someone else takes over
    Hmm, I'll bump Don, King and Slash, but what's Queen's niche again? I cbf looking up past discussions and going over its moveset
     
  25. BaSr

    BaSr Member

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    okay thanks
     
  26. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    Blissey from B- > C+

    Blissey is a very potent special tank, however, it lacks something many other pokemon have, offensive pressure. I can understand blissey being OU as a last resort Zapdos/Kou counter, but Kou does a much better job as it isn’t a free switch in to half as many pokemon as Blissey. The only reason that i can see for blissey is Screen support, but screens aren’t as much of a threat as a thunder from Kou

    TTar from A- > A

    Tyranatar is a monster. It is a huge boon on stall teams, acting as a pursuiter for both ghost that block spin and starmie, FB + pursuit to wear down forry/cloy, and DP to scare away the Drumlaxes that show up and ruin your day. Tyranitar also Pairs well with Machamp, getting rid of starmie, egg, and zapdos, so Machamp can wreak havoc with Cross chop. Honestly though, Pursuit on TTar is one of the most scary things seen in GSC. Pursuit TTar with Fire Blast completely covers all common checks to LKDrumlax. Another tool that this Swiss Army knife of a pokemon gets is roar. Tyranitar with curse+roar+rs+rest is only hard-countered by suicune, and once that is out of the way tyranitar runs loose on the opposing team. With roar, Tyranitar can also pull off incredibly long roar chains, as tyranitar has the tools to usually scare 3-5 pokemon on the opposing team. Tyranitar only has a few problems, namely weakness to common moves such as EQ and Surf, most of the time not having enough space for rest so it gets worn down easily, and lack of physical dark STAB. hypothetically though, Physical crunch and pursuit would make this Godzilla-esque monster even more menacing, possibly even making it to S-rank.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  27. nicky

    nicky Member

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    Hm might agree with Lojh here. Tyranitar moving to A+. It's a tough one.
    Its movepool and amount of sets/mixups are huge, making its unpredictability and scouting requirements rival that of Lax. I myself wouldn't go as far as calling it a "swiss army knife", but the point still stands. Tar does have some nifty resistances that prove useful in almost every match you'll ever play (namely Fire and Psychic); but most of them are actually irrelevant as far as OU is concerned (Poison, Ghost & Dark? lol). And of course, those very common moves it's weak to can give the illusion that it's good natural bulk is only around average, so the reasons for why Tar can stay down are quite apparent actually.

    There are 3 big things holding Tar back:
    1. Difficulty in finding times to switch in safely.
    2. Lack of recovery (4-move syndrome basically)
    3. Lack of reliable physical moves to use that Attack stat.
    Rock Slide, with it's low power, may as well just be an EQ from Nidoking. And the Dynamicpunch issues of low PP+low Accuracy kind of ruins would COULD BE one of most threatening sets in GSC OU period. That really hurts Tar a lot if we're being honest. Obviously it's got trapping capabilities, phazing, and a blessed special movepool; but again, they don't cater to what Tar ideally wants to be doing with it's stats. I find the analogy: "Strong player dealt a weak hand" to be fitting.


    I mean, in it's defense, Skarm is currently sitting in A+ and is basically the opposite of Tyranitar. It's a bad player dealt a 'god' hand. Average stats besides defense, terrible movepool, but amazing matchups in the meta. So if Skarm can be A+ then I can see Tar as A+. Skarmory is weak to a ridiculous amount of pokemon in OU, even more than Tyranitar, but of course it is a cornerstone of forming an impenetrable defense to STAB Normal Attacks; that's why it is good, but that's all it does. Maybe the real issue here is that Skarmory should be in A-tier and not that Tar needs to move up; I don't know exactly.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
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  28. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. Zapdos: 221-260 (57.7 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Thick Club Marowak Rock Slide vs. Zapdos: 209-246 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Tyranitar Dynamic Punch vs. Snorlax: 231-272 (44.1 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery



    ttar rock slide hits hard, nido eq doesn’t compare. DP is one of the hardest hitting moves any pokemon can do to snorlax, third only to explosion and machamp’s Cross Chop.

    Also, TTar can switch in to a verity of pokemon, most importantly monolax and skarmory, very commonly used pokemon. The other 2 points are pretty good points.

    Another thing that TTar has on other pokemon is splashablilty. Here are some showdown stats.

    ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
    | 1 | Snorlax | 87.80690% | 5856 | 66.773% | 6 | 90.000% |
    | 2 | Cloyster | 60.38975% | 3285 | 37.457% | 4 | 60.000% |
    | 3 | Zapdos | 47.15754% | 2887 | 32.919% | 1 | 15.000% |
    | 4 | Raikou | 42.66089% | 2601 | 29.658% | 5 | 75.000% |
    | 5 | Skarmory | 38.13652% | 2541 | 28.974% | 6 | 90.000% |
    | 6 | Tyranitar | 28.83404% | 2362 | 26.933% | 0 | 0.000% |

    TTar is one of the most splashable pokemon on offensive teams because of how many different roles it can perform. It hits hard with its plethora of high base power moves and good all around stats, and learns some useful status moves such as curse and roar. tyranitar is easily worthy of A+ rank
     
  29. nicky

    nicky Member

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    Yes it does..
    - Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. Venusaur: 112-132 (30.8 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    - Nidoking Earthquake vs. Venusaur: 115-136 (31.6 - 37.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    In fact, Nido is slightly stronger.


    I already acknowledged that it is a powerful move. I said it has 8 PP and 50% accuracy, which means it's garbage. If it had at least ~16 PP then it'd probably be reliably usable to a degree.


    It's hard for Tyranitar to switch into most OU mons in GSC; I'm sorry, that's just how it is. 2 matchups with specific sets (Toxic Skarmory is common too) is not close to everything at all.

    Lax isn't actually something I'd list that Tar can feel comfortable coming into. Without any piror scouting, it would only be the Two Ghost types (Hypnosis has bad accuracy so it's a calculated risk), Alakazam, Dragonite, Houndoom, Muk, Porygon2, Skarm, and maybe Electrics if you're feeling lucky. And even after scouting, if your Tar doesn't have rest then it's getting worn down by Snorlax and Houndoom one way or another; there's no avoiding the inevitable.
    But anyway, most of these positive matchups are BL pokemon. Tar's typing hurts it quite a bit, but helps it in some ways in the OU field. I'm not denying the truth that obviously Tyranitar is a good pokemon; we all understand that it's in A for a reason.


    **The more I talk, the more I realize Skarm has absolutely no business being in A+ and Tar should just stay in A. Both of them in A looks right to me.**
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  30. nicky

    nicky Member

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    Just chiming in. I'm uncomfortable with how low the rocks are. Golem and Rhydon are in C, while Blissey and Dragonite are in B? I don't see how anyone could think Bliss and Drag are even close to the rocks, let alone better. Those guys should be flip flopped to be honest.

    And the list even contradicts itself. The description of C-Rank: "they possess some flaws that can sometimes make them difficult to use."
    You want something hard to use; you're looking at it. Drag and Bliss are really hard to use and sound like they both fit what C is trying to say perfectly. I don't know long it's been since this thing has been updated, but it has to be years..
     
  31. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I'm not against shifting things around in those ranks, but I'd like to see more expansion on your position in terms of rocks and bliss/nite. My experience with the rocks is that they're not all that common and they have massive hills to climb when doing anything since they have so many weaknesses that teams naturally pack multiple checks to them without even trying.

    Regarding Tar/Skarm, I'm personally more inclined to bump Tar up than drop Skarm down. I'm with Lojh in thinking TTar's really splashable in that it threatens a lot and has great bulk against anything without a super effective attack, especially if it can come in on coverage moves like HP Ice from electrics. Defensively it's a great check to literally any non-EQ Lax, while if you're absolutely desperate it can still take on EQ variants (I'm not claiming it's good at that though).

    As for Skarm, I think I originally had it in A but someone argued it should be A+. I think either side is reasonable, since it's of little use offensively, but defensively it pretty much walls half the tier
     
  32. nicky

    nicky Member

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    Ortheore
    Well to be honest with you, I don't really understand the significance of having + and - subtiers within the letters. Like, why would Jolteon be worse thean Heracross? Or Charizard worse than Jynx? None of it really make sense to me is all. Many, many of these pokemon are equally as threatening. I actually believe that a great deal of the list needs a reworking..

    But anyway, for the rock types. Golem has key useful moves in Rapid spin, Explosion, and Roar, that allow it simultaneously fill roles as a Fire Lax check, a spinner, a phazer, and spot removal (shorthand for booming on something). Golem's spin in particular is one of the best because Gengar cannot safely block it.
    Rhydon does all the things golem does as well, except for spinning and assassinating. Of course, Rhy instead comes with the strongest dual STAB in the game that hit many team comps hard. Similarily to Marowak, it's meaty EQ also revenge kills BellyLax or simply just deters it from Bellying to begin with. Those are important traits for offense.
    The pair may be weak to Toxic, which would probably indicate a need for heal bell support. I don't think Golem cares about Heal Bell as much because it can explode, but Rhy appreciates it. Golem is maybe a bit better than Rhydon anyway, so it adds up. Perhaps Golem should be the only one to move up; I don't know.

    As for why Drag and Blissey are overrated on this list. Dragonite has the Haze set and the offensive set. The Haze is pretty much only guaranteed to ruin sweeps from Vaporeon, Curse Heracross, and Quagsire. Critical hits from Lax will just end Drag's life. The offensive set is banking on a 50% accuracy move with only 8 PP to hit it's mark in order to do something noteworthy in the match. The boltbeam coverage is good, though Drag is stopped cold by anything even resembling a mixed wall. It doesn't impact the game that much without luck.
    Blissey is probably mostly hurt by the fact that it can't run Thunder Wave with Heal Bell. If it could, it'd deserve some praise for its versatility. As it stands, Bliss lets in too many sweepers, and other such threats, come in free; some of those being Nido, Heracross, Tentacruel, Snorlax, and Steelix. A lot due to it having to choose what it wants to hurt (thunderbolt or flamethrower). Softboiled and Heal bell obviously are mandatory, as well as either Toxic or Light Screen. The Light Screen is decent support for your own offense, but that variant still gets PP stalled by Vaporeon and Jolteon with Growth (64), so it's not even 100% guaranteed stop what the set is designed for.
    Growl Bliss is almost a meme. All it's good for is making Steelix uncomfortable and using the 64 PP to outstall Growthers.


    *Now that I've been giving more thought to it, I think I'll agree with you about having both Skarm and Tar in the same rank up with Gengar and Eggy. They are probably good enough for it.
     
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  33. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    HELL YES!

    When it does this much role compression, it misses out by not being able to rest, autolosing to hp water, and being cloyster fodder, and cloyster is everywhere.

    Um, jolteon is much worse than heracross. Heracross is a threatining sweeper, and has legitamate playstyles built around it. Jolteon is more gimmicky as it passes boosts, and gets shut down by roarkou and residual damage.
     
  34. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Leftovers Raikou Thunder vs. Leftovers Kingdra: 148 - 174 (41.9 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers
    Leftovers Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Leftovers Kingdra: 125 - 147 (35.4 - 41.6%) -- 80.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers
    Leftovers Snorlax Return vs. Leftovers Kingdra: 122 - 144 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- 56.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers
    Leftovers Exeggutor Psychic vs. Leftovers Kingdra (poisoned): 118 - 139 (33.4 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison, Leftovers <-- using poison as surrogate for Leech Seed
    Thick Club Marowak Earthquake vs. Leftovers Kingdra: 194 - 228 (55 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
    Rhydon Earthquake vs. Leftovers Kingdra: 133 - 157 (37.7 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers

    It walls Tyranitar, Nidoking and Vaporeon, since the former two have crappy STABs and the latter is 4x-resisted, but really that's about it for offensive 'mons it can actually stop (there's also kinda Steelix, but it Explodes and is somewhat defensive in actual use).
    Tyranitar has two basic problems:

    1) It does NOT hit hard. Its STAB is weak enough that it's walled by many non-resists (Raikou, Vaporeon, Lax, Suicune, Miltank).
    2) It has two real draws - FireLax phazer and Pursuiter - but if it does both then it doesn't have the slots available to threaten much of anything (it either has two attacks, or one attack and Curse, and without a STAB that matters on a neutral hit that's just not enough).
    Dry-passes will give Raikou trouble. Full Baton Pass teams also have ways around RoarKou (primarily Smeargle's Spore).

    Heracross is shut down by several things on your average stall team (Skarmory, Miltank or Ghosts), and also suffers from Big Bird. Reversal is absolutely a gimmick, if a decent one.
     
  35. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    Dry passes give kou trouble if spikes are up on their side and not on your side, which needs a decent spin blocking core. Smearergle’s spore is not super reliable and is also worn down by spikes. Most full-pass teams run wak and lax to scare away kou, the former gets worn down by spikes and lax can have problems with crits and paras from thunder. Heracross is shut down by skarmory and ghosts and #2, but teams that use heracross utilize good ways to remove all three (mixlax.) Tyranitar has it’s claim to fame by doing a good job of scaring out #2 and is EXCELLENT for removing ghosts so you can sweep with monolax or spin spikes away. Saying lax walls ttar is pretty eh because theres always flinches and crits to account for, not to mention DP. Tyrannitar is probably not a sweeper, but a good support pokemon nonetheless. Also it is splashable, which is the main reason cloy is above forry. Also, this might be influenced by my stallish playstyle but i think #2 and #3 should switch places. #3 is the best special wall and can roar chain stuff, while #2 fishes for paras and crits to poke holes in teams. #3 is also a decent resttalk electric, and if it runs reflect, can wall most of the non-se meta.
     
  36. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    [​IMG] Gengar: he doesn't belong there at all, it's pretty good but we are talking of a private vip area of Skarmory and Exeggutor, i know the spin block etc but A- looks much better
    [​IMG] Machamp: in my opinion Machamp is the best sweeper of gsc, good bulk, lax threating, very good movepool making it able to threat almost any opponent especially with the devastating 25% crit rate of Cross Chop, a very clear A+ to me
    [​IMG] Suicune: he seems very much overstated and out of place in this group, the reality is that in gsc despite the colossal bulk suicune is very match up based and generally outclassed by Vaporeon who can turns into a wincondition as well as threating electric types/lax with some setup. The lack of real offensive power makes it very often ppstalled, heavily teammates-reliant (as he doesn't have any way to progress the game alone) and a pretty unused pokemon. B+
    [​IMG]Jynx
    [​IMG]Rhydon

    These two pokemons have been proved as good gimmicks, a bit unreliable in the long run but still deserves much more credit than the Muk Tier come on... B+

    [​IMG] Charizard
    [​IMG]Clefable

    The drummers are clearly a gamble, but with the right setup they can be able to 6-0 entire teams (something more worth than being a Growth passer like Jolteon). B- seems more reasonable especially for Clefable.
     
  37. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Just a quick reminder EVs/DVs is a thing, as is GSC Roar favoring the slower Pokemon. You can trade outspeeding Starmie on a Growth set to phase out RoarKou. Agility Jolteon can't do much about RoarKou though.
     
  38. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    Gengar is one of the best boomers in the game. Gengar has absurd synergy with cloyster, and can block spin. Gengar definitely belongs with skarmory. Gengar’s versitility is off the charts, and incorrect guessing on what set it is running could result in a hole ripped in your team that cannot be patched up.

    Suicune is an amazing mixed wall in gsc, and this may be the stallish side of me talking, but is an amazing all around pokemon. With roar, it is the be all end all wall to vaporeon, Tyranitar, and in most places, nidoking. Possibly the #3 phazer in gsc (behind raikou and skarm), and all three of these are used on iconic stall teams that have helped many good stall players achieve good results.

    Machamp is superb, no doubt about it, but is not splashable, and even though it is a threat to stall, is not especially hard to play around via roar predictions and residual damage. It may have slightly average bulk, as it takes more from Raikou thunder and lax double edge than zapdos. Perfectly good to use with the right support, but not as influential as other A+ like gengar and skarmory, and of course, the #1 spiker.




    Also, nobody understands how good umbreon and forry and missy are for stall teams, they can and should be slightly higher than where they are right now. Missy is the best spinblocker, forry is toxic immune, and umbreon covers all non-drum lax and is a blanket check to most pokemon, as well as a very very very very decent toxic+pursuiter. Especially good at crippling egg and starmie, and can be a last resort thunder-eater.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
  39. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Reminder that if someone else wants to take over managing this thread that would probably be best, as I haven't played gsc in a while. Just let me know if you're interested. Until then, I'll try my best to participate in discussion though.

    Proposals that are either explicit or implicit:
    Tyranitar to A+
    As I've said previously, I'd support this, as I feel TTar is really splashable thanks to its great coverage and anti-Lax utility. fwiw I've seldom used Curse variants of it, instead opting for stuff like Roar+3 attacks mostly, which allows it to cover a broad range of threats. It's true that it doesn't hit all that hard, but it hits hard enough to force plays, especially in conjunction with Spikes. A few of the pokemon M9M listed can tank its attacks, but are far from comfortable doing so, often being forced to Rest early, for instance.

    Gengar to A-
    I'm hesitant to make this change, since I know that traditionally Gengar is widely regarded as belonging in A+, and from a defensive standpoint its typing offers a lot of benefits. However I'm not opposed to this change either, as I think Gengar's versatility is overrated and I think its limited attacking power limits it a lot. Also if Gar drops nothing else is rising to A+.

    Machamp to A+
    Definitely disagree on this one. I won't deny that Champ's an offensive powerhouse, but I think defensively it has a few too many issues, as its bulk isn't great and its typing offers very few resistances. This all combines to greatly limit its opportunities, such that I don't think it offers enough to be A+

    Suicune to B+
    I'm open to dropping Suicune, as it tends to be a bit of a do-nothing pokemon, while shutting down Ground types is nice, but there are plenty of pokemon capable of doing that

    Jynx and Rhydon to B+
    Troller your own argument describes them as good gimmicks, and a bit unreliable in the long run. I would've said that this perfectly describes the rank they're in. Jynx obviously faces the issue of having virtually no defensive utility, while also struggling with Lax I guess. As for Rhydon, it's just way too easy to stop Rhydon from being a major threat imo, as its gaping weaknesses mean a lot of things shut it down, while it's also comfortably stopped by any form of status. Edit: I also think Don isn't that much better than Golem. I could maybe see these in B-, but not B+

    Charizard and Clefable to B-
    I mean sure, they can potentially sweep teams, but they really need a LOT of things to go right for them for that to be realistic, on top of which, playing with them is almost like playing 5v6 from the start of battle because unless the stars align for a sweep, they're going to be providing basically nothing to the team. I really think C- is the appropriate place for them.

    Misdreavus, Forretress and Umbreon rising
    It's unclear how much they're supposed to be rising by. If it's within their own ranks, then that would actually require the whole rankings to be revamped because they're currently done alphabetically. If it's to A-, then I could see that happening for Umbreon, not so much for the other two. Missy's just not that great imo, like its offensive tools are extremely limited while defensively it's not that great either- fewer weaknesses is nice I guess, but its bulk is still mediocre and it's susceptible to Toxic so idk. Forre is basically just a Toxic-immune Spike setter, and it struggles to accomplish any of the other things it tries to do- it fails to Spin against practically any team with a Ghost, while its Explosion is all bark, no bite, as it can force switches, but in terms of dealing damage it's atrocious. Umbreon I wouldn't oppose rising because its bulk is absurd, while it's not entirely a do-nothing staller thanks to Pursuit. That said, it's still really bad offensively

    Jolteon dropping
    Although no-one asked for this, Jolt's been bashed a couple times now and tbh the arguments against it are very fair. Could definitely drop to C+. Scratch that, gonna go ahead and drop Jolt
     
  40. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    About Rhydon and Jynx, probably the current rank definition is right however they both have been proved in numerous tourament games as "reliable gimmickish" pokes, i don't see why they should share the rank of Tentacruel, Porygon2 or Muk all unused and way worse and more unreliable (i also ignored Golem because i don't have the experiece to judge it not because i think it's worse).
    This kind of logic is the same i used to ask a buff for Clefable and Charizard, their fragility is obvious and i didn't mean to over hype them because the flaws (such as the very heavy setup needed) are well known. But again they are much better than any other pokemon of that rank by a long margin and this is why i believe C+ is the least they deserve.
     
  41. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    Umbreon > A-
    (Reasons mentioned above)

    Forretress > A-
    It is the best defensive spiker. Has a godsend via steel typing and while has not much going offensively, can do things cloyster can, WHILE BEING IMMUNE TO TOXIC. In the endless stomach churning grinding of gsc, Forry can last for a while with leftovers recovery and is not worn down as easily as cloyster. If given giga drain, it even beats cloyster and ensures spikes are up on their side of the field while making sure they are not on yours. Many popular stall teams use forretress simply because it is immune to toxic, so lasts longer.

    Suicune > remains A-
    Scares out marrowak, shuts down ALL tyranitar, shuts down vaporeon, soft checks Nidoking phazes, scares out steelix. Many of the people here are only looking at gsc from an offensive standpoint and overlook suicune, but from a stallish standpoint, this is an amazing pokemon. It can even stay in against machamp’s cross chop and pp stall it if you are decently lucky (around 0.21^2 chance of loosing cune (these chances are even lower if you run resttalk)).

    I am interested in maybe managing the thread, but i may not have the credentials required
     
  42. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    Acid Armor Vaporeon can that do that too and i believe you ignored the two arguments for the drop just to spam "Suicune is bulky".
    1- Nothing what of what he does is unique or necessary, Tyranitar is pretty pathetic vs stall and gets stopped by Raikou, Miltank, Umbreon, Vaporeon, Starmie and maybe Snorlax. Pretty much same goes for Nidoking outside of Raikou and Starmie. But the point is you are overstating a good pokemon but with low usages because of some extra bulk.
    2- You need a good reason to play it over Vaporeon who can turns to a win condition and doesn't get ppstalled so easily by switches.

    Don't get me wrong Suicune is very good but i don't think he has what it takes to share the rank with Marowak or Steelix, and the usage is pretty clear, stall teams has better options most of the times.
     
  43. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    Now that i own this thread, i will be thinking about sub projects like ordering pokemon inside their rank, etc.


    Also, if more than one person is able to sway me about suicune or if the general population thinks suicune needs to be dropped to B+, in B+ shall it reside.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
  44. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    MixLax is okay, but it's not exactly reliable at removing all of those guys. And, well, if you're spending your Lax to make Rest Hera work, you might as well use Rest Lax instead and save yourself the trouble since Hera really doesn't have many advantages over Lax.
    Tyranitar is a good anti-Ghost Pursuit user.

    Tyranitar can scare out Zapdos, yes, but it doesn't want to come in (and doesn't discourage STAB spam) and tends to get worn down easily due to its lack of recovery. Invoking DynamicMiss is rather a stretch, not to mention that I was discussing Rock Slide in particular; my point was that Tyranitar's STAB is underwhelming and requires either lots of coverage or Curse to be remotely threatening.
    It is a great sweeper (though it lacks Roar), but it's not great at coming in on things.
    The main problem with Clefable is scaring something out to Drum. Put bluntly, it is bad at this. The only real chance is with Fire vs. Skarm/Lix, and even then it's a guessing game because if they predict Drum they can Roar you out. Also, Moonlight is useful but it doesn't really have the bulk to Moonlight on something and then Drum.
    Well, no, it's not the "be-all and end-all wall" to Vap and Nidoking, because Nidoking has LK and Thunder and Vap can run Roar (though it's rare). It's solid against Ttar (with one minor and highly luck-dependent exception), but that's not precisely hard.

    The major issue with Suicune is its lack of offense, which makes it compare poorly to Vap (which, let's not forget, has 3/4 of Suicune's physical bulk and slightly more special bulk). Mirror Coat can be hilarious, though.
    Don't do this, please. It's going to be super-controversial for very little benefit.
     
  45. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    The drummers do not really need to scare out anything, just a good old pokemon resting.
     
  46. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    I do see where you are coming from. Would be hard to make and there would be minor arguments over every drop and raise. I’ll take your advice.

    The main problem about the non-lax drummers is that they are both very hesitant to switch in, and to set up a successful sweep, you need to come in on a sleeping pokemon or defensive pokemon, have already pre-paralyzed the faster counter, and drum. Even this is risky, as charizard’s 999 eq doesnt kill many neutral resists. Clefable is slightly better at this as it has moonlight and stab physical, but it is stopped by ghosts if it runs fire blast and stopped by skarmory and if it shadow balls it loses to ghosts

    Also, by popular demand
    Suicune to B+
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
  47. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Suicune should not be compared to vaporeon at all. Totally different Pokemon. Suicune should only be played on stall and is great at that. One of the best stall mons. Vaporeon is an offensive poke. One of the best if used right.

    Charizard’s earthquake does suck. And playing with his standard set is like playing a 5v6 . But you guys are living in 2018 while I’m living in 3018 . Change that awful set already to the one I propose and watch the usage go up. Seriously. I come back to check in after all this time and you guys still haven’t evolved?

    Also if Roostur was emperor and dictator (which I think we should consider) we wouldn’t have the dumb viability list. Instead we would rank teams. Because how effective a Pokemon is changes based on the team it is on. So it makes no logical sense to rate them individually when they aren’t used that way. We should rank popular teams instead. <—-great idea.
     
  48. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    dood your ego is bigger than mine and mine's big enough for two people

    this is like the thread on 2k10 where GGFan declared himself king of the forum
     
    Disaster Area likes this.
  49. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    You can't compare you posting logs of beating randoms in meaningless Netbattle games to prove how "great" you were to me posting a blatant joke thread aimed at highlighting how ineffectual the staff at that horrible site was.
     
  50. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Ranking teams doesn't sound like a bad idea if someone wants to do it...
     

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