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GSC OU (OverUsed) Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Ortheore, Sep 26, 2015.

  1. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    The purpose of this thread is to rank all of the pokemon in GSC OU in approximate order of their effectiveness. Feel free to suggest any changes to this list, though please be sure to back your posts up with adequate reasoning.

    S Rank
    - These Pokemon are formidable threats to the point where they define the meta. They possess incredible offensive and defensive capabilities and should be considered for almost every team.

    Snorlax Rank - belongs on every serious team

    [​IMG] Snorlax

    Electrics Rank - at least one of these should be on most serious teams

    [​IMG] Raikou
    [​IMG] Zapdos

    A Rank - These Pokemon are excellent choices in the tier. They are very effective in their roles such that they are common sights in high level matches and they help shape the tier without dominating it.

    A+

    [​IMG] Cloyster
    [​IMG] Exeggutor
    [​IMG] Gengar
    [​IMG]Skarmory

    A-

    [​IMG]
    Machamp
    [​IMG]Marowak
    [​IMG] Nidoking
    [​IMG]Steelix
    [​IMG] Suicune
    [​IMG] Tyranitar
    [​IMG]Vaporeon

    B Rank - These Pokemon are generally good choices in the tier, capable of fulfilling a given role effectively. They see regular usage within the tier and may help to shape the meta, although they do suffer from some minor flaws

    B+

    [​IMG]
    Forretress
    [​IMG]Heracross
    [​IMG]Miltank
    [​IMG]Misdreavus
    [​IMG]Starmie
    [​IMG]Umbreon

    B-

    [​IMG]
    Blissey
    [​IMG]Dragonite
    [​IMG]Jolteon

    C Rank - These Pokemon have a decent niche within the tier and may pose a significant threat with the right support. Despite this, they possess some flaws that can sometimes make them difficult to use. Overall they are relevant threats that are seen occasionally in high level play.

    C+

    [​IMG]Golem
    [​IMG]Jynx
    [​IMG]Muk
    [​IMG]Porygon2
    [​IMG]Rhydon
    [​IMG]Tentacruel

    C-

    [​IMG] Charizard
    [​IMG]Clefable
    [​IMG]Espeon
    [​IMG]Kangaskhan
    [​IMG]Quagsire
    [​IMG]Smeargle

    D Rank - Though they are capable of impacting a match, these Pokemon are relatively difficult to use effectively, whether due to large flaws, requiring significant support, inconsistency or a limited niche. They are rarely seen in high level matches.

    D

    [​IMG]Alakazam
    [​IMG]Ampharos
    [​IMG]Donphan
    [​IMG]Houndoom
    [​IMG]Kingdra
    [​IMG]Meganium
    [​IMG]Moltres
    [​IMG]Nidoqueen
    [​IMG]Piloswine
    [​IMG]Sandslash

    E Rank - These pokemon are mostly ineffective in the tier for a variety of reasons, however they may have a few traits that might make them appealing. They are practically never used in high level play, and are better suited for fun teams.

    [​IMG]Aerodactyl
    [​IMG]Electabuzz
    [​IMG]Electrode
    [​IMG]Entei
    [​IMG]Jumpluff
    [​IMG]Magneton
    [​IMG]Poliwhirl
    [​IMG]Scizor
    [​IMG]Slowbro
    [​IMG]Tauros
    [​IMG]Ursaring
    [​IMG] Venusaur
    [​IMG]Victreebel
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  2. M Dragon

    M Dragon Member

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    Skarm to A+ (i would say its top 5 or 6 of GSC)
    Tyranitar to A+ (maybe keep it in A tho, but TTar is a huge threat both offensively and defensively)
    Miltank to A- (not as good as the other A mons)
    Machamp to A (one of the greatest GSC threats, a ton of teams are Machamp weak, especially with Starm being so easy to lure, it deserves A at least)
    Umbreon to A- (its better than the other B mons)
    Dragonite to A- (can wall more than half of the tier easily and is a big threat with a mixed set)
    Smeargle to C+ (I think that Quag, Zard, P2, Kan, Don and Tenta are better than Smeargle. In fact I would move all those 6 mons to B because they are all amazing mons and I would merge C+ and C)
    Alakazam C (much better than the rest of D+)
    Sandslash and Piloswine to D+ (they are worse then the rest of C)
     
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  3. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Fair call on Tank, Umb and Champ.
    Regarding TTar/Skarm/Dnite I'd like to see more reasoning or other ppl chiming in. As it stands I'm not sure Dnite/Skarm's flaws are adequately mitigated to the point where they are justified to rise, while TTar obviously contributes in a lot of areas while being great at none.

    Pilo and Slash can drop I guess, but I disagree with Zam rising. What does this even do? It has a lot of interesting tools but lacks the bulk/typing to make it work, while its stats suggest a potent special attacker but its coverage is so poor it's ineffective at that as well. I think it fits the description of D rank better than C, which is why I put it there. In all honesty I'd rather add another sub-rank to D and shuffle things around a bit than bump it up to C.

    I personally think Baton Pass is immensely threatening, albeit a little inconsistent which is why Smeargle is B. What's probably more interesting is practically the entirety of C+ being where it is. This ultimately stems from the criteria I've used for B/C rank as I feel C rank is a more appropriate description of these pokemon. They can be very good with the right support but it's tough to see them fitting on a lot of teams and overall they just don't have the impact many in B have. They're the kind of things that you can build a capable team around, but otherwise you're likely to never see them and they really do require extensive support to be effective.

    Yeah, I'm placing a lot of importance on the way I've worded descriptions for each rank so that's something.
     
  4. M Dragon

    M Dragon Member

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    C Rank- These Pokemon have a decent niche within the tier but also suffer from significant flaws, which can make them difficult to use effectively. Though they may have some potential, they are generally rare sights in high level matches.

    Definitely not P2, Clefable, Quag, Rhydon or Tenta, especially when you have Smeargle, Espeon and Muk in C (all 3 are less common and worse overall)


    About Alakazam, Encore is huge, especially in Toxic Stalls, and it has the bulk to wall a lot of mixed sweepers and encoring some set uppers. A pokemon I have used in toxic stall teams with big success.
    It is definitely better than Jynx for example (C ranked mon)
     
  5. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Ok I guess Zam can rise.

    Comparisons to Muk and Espeon are very valid points. Now that I'm looking at it B rank as a whole seems something of an aberration. I feel like a few pokemon such as Dnite and Jolteon are significantly better than most of B rank, but not quite A calibre, while splitting up B into two ranks for so few pokemon also seems silly. I might drop A- down to B+, reword a few things and go from there. I'll also save a copy of the current list so if we want to revert we can

    Edit: Done. Added E rank as a repository for pokemon that are kinda terrible but might be fun to try in a friendly context. Rewrote descriptions for B, C, D rank so that they are generally more positive. Dumped A- down to B, split the old B rank in two- some became B-, the rest got dumped in C. The old C/D+/D ranks all got shifted down.

    Edit2: Does Blissey look right in B-?

    Also what are everyone's thoughts on C rank- is it worth splitting up? There may be a divide there, I'm not sure since I'm not too familiar with a lot of the pokemon ranked there. For instance, I'm kinda thinking maybe Don is better than a few of the pokemon ranked there, but I'm not comfortable sorting them all out. Or it could just be purely my perspective idk
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2015
  6. Isa

    Isa Member

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    why is gengar a+ while skarmory is a
     
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  7. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I considered Skarm's incredibly passive nature to make it not quite A+ material, while Gengar is generally very threatening while still retaining defensive utility. However if you think Skarm should be ranked alongside Gar and M Dragon thinks it belongs in A+ that's good enough reason for me to bump it
     
  8. Moon Light

    Moon Light Member

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    I think Alakazam deserves a D+/C rank, for his encore in toxic spikes stall teams.
    Also Piloswine should be moved to C, he perfectly walls and damages electrics without hp water and does decent damage to snorlax with earthquake.
    And Aerodactyl at least D rank, he can perfectly wall and phaze every not thunder lax, even if pretty useless in any other thing
     
  9. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Zam is already in D+ but I just don't see Zam as on par with a lot of the pokemon in C rank.
    Pilo can rise, not sure of C tho. M Dragon argued for it to drop earlier and it's not all that difficult to handle in my experience- waters give it grief, and it tends to be in an awkward position if it doesn't predict right (e.g. Lax entering on IB)
    Yeah I guess Aero can rise
     
  10. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    I feel like in general you're too high on everything. A decent chunk of A I'd describe as having "minor flaws", and a decent chunk of B I'd describe as having "flaws that make them difficult to use".

    My list would be like

    A+
    Cloyster - yes, it is THAT big; usage stats usually go lax > cloy > electrics for a reason

    A
    Exeggutor
    Gengar
    Skarmory
    Steelix
    Vaporeon
    (maybe Tyranitar?)

    B+
    Machamp
    Marowak
    Miltank
    Nidoking
    Suicune
    (Tyranitar, if not A)
    (maybe Forretress/Misdreavus?)

    B
    Heracross
    Jolteon
    Starmie
    Umbreon
    (Forretress and/or Misdreavus, if not B+)

    C, D
    idk

    Or tone down the hype on As and Bs. I dunno, I just feel like Suicune is definitely a
    and Blissey is definitely a
    but they're mostly in the right order.
     
  11. Talenheim

    Talenheim Imperfect Perfection Member

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    Eh, I'd say that's less due to Cloy's viability and more due to the fact that the electrics are two Pokemon, and their usage stats are therefore split.
    | 1 | Snorlax | 58 | 100.0% |
    | 2 | Cloyster | 31 | 53.45% |
    | 3 | Zapdos | 29 | 50.00% |
    | 4 | Raikou | 25 | 43.10% |

    This effectively means

    | 1 | Snorlax | 58 | 100.0% |
    | 4 | Electrics | 54 | 93.10% |
    | 3 | Cloyster | 31 | 53.45% |

    stats from WCoP X
    Cloy's otherwise so high because a lot of teams (I'd ballpark 80%) appreciate Spikes support, and Cloyster is generally more splashable than Forry. Definitely A+ material, but shouldn't get an entire subranking to itself. Current A+ is perfectly fine where it is, only possible debate would be Gengar dropping (although I support it in A+).

    Due to running Smogon's VR, I'm naturally slightly biased, so I'll keep my opinion short.

    Snorlax through B looks fine to me, no comment on Machamp in A.
    I'd put P2 and Don in B-, P2 can put in consistent work regardless of the opposing team's comp and takes pressure off your Lax, and spreads para on the same tier as TWave Dos and Stun Spore + Seed Egg. Don loses to egg + waters + HP elecs, but can still pressure the elecs and hit waters neutrally and hardstops firelaxes, (which Lix can't attest to).

    Doom doesn't feel right in D+, I know it has little to no presence in tour games but having a stronger pursuit than tar, being able to run crunch, and having sunny day + fblast to break through walls is not D+ material, I'd put it in C.

    I actually say that Moltres and Entei should switch places, Entei doesn't hit as hard but gets Solar Beam, which IMO is enough.

    Amph in D is hard on my feels (I'd say D+), but I guess that's just personal opinion.

    If you're sporting an E rank, at least mention Ursaring, has enough survivability with Restalk + curse and hits insanely hard.
     
  12. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    I know that, which is why I didn't claim Cloy was better than the Electrics.

    Cloyster does something fantastic better than anything else can do it, to the extent that the majority of teams run it. None of the other A+ mons can claim that; each of them is basically locked into one archetype or the other (Skarm in stall, Egg and Gar in offense).

    If the descriptions were less glowing, I might agree with you. But Suicune certainly has flaws (terrible matchups against the top 3), and Blissey's (doesn't bring much defensively in Snorlax/Raikou tier; Light Screen isn't very useful because insert Snorlax here) and Heracross' (most teams run either Skarm or Zapdos; it can't do much about either) flaws absolutely make them hard to use.

    Remember also that PP tiers based on these lists, so where the lines are drawn really matters.
     
  13. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I actually don't mind m9m's suggestion to put Cloy in its own rank. Between here and smogon, ppl always disagree about the placement of the other pokemon, but never Cloy. Furthermore, Spikes are just that good and Cloy is far better than Forry at virtually everything. I honestly can't help but compare them to the electrics here, with the difference being that things are skewed even more in favour of one over the other.

    Also I don't think the descriptions are particularly glowing? Ok maybe A, so I tweaked it very slightly, but I don't see an issue with B. That said, I'm not opposed to dropping Blissey. I mean, yes it brings relatively unique support in the form of Heal Bell, but it's a doormat for Lax, and more of a nuisance than a serious threat. Cune I'm not so sure about- yes it's shredded by electrics but it's a decent response to a lot of pokemon in A, and capable of spreading Toxic and spikes shuffling.

    As for Talen's noms, I can see P2 rising, it's a little more versatile and better at supporting the team than the rest of C. I disagree with Don tho, it's just not good enough as too many things beat it

    I think Doom is fine where it is, it contributes nothing defensively, it's only a little stronger than TTar in terms of special attacking and I think Sun+FBlast just isn't all it's cracked up to be tbh. Also I'm a big fan of Moltres, its raw power is a huge deal as it doesn't really need Sunny Day to dent stuff like Lax.

    I just don't see any good reason for using Amphy tbh so I don't agree here either

    I'll add in Ursaring
     
  14. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    You're quite right. Which means it fits this description:

    (also, it's basically on a level with Miltank IMO)

    And I mean if we were to accept this meta as 1U (which doesn't seem likely, admittedly), I'd balk at Bliss/Nite/Hera being considered 1U. They're kinda out-there options. But if they're in B they can't even be voted on.
     
  15. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    js it doesn't have to be C that we vote on, it depends on what feels right for the tier (for instance a gen 6 ranking thread can have pokemon in B+ that might not be considered 1U or w/e). So in this case I would definitely nominate B- to be voted on

    Personally I think in general your changes aren't too bad there's a few I disagree with (TTar is definitely A), not sure how Vap compares to Nido etc, but overall not too bad. However it's a very drastic change and I'd want some other ppl to comment before I make that change
     
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  16. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Pretty much on the money with all of that, personally I'd put Tyranitar & Nidoking in A+, there's a very broad spectrum of pokes that they just hands down beat toe to toe, I certainly wouldn't rank Cloyster and Exeggutor above them, Nidoking beats both despite having the type disadvantage. I also feel Victreebell deseves a place somewhere, even if only the E slot.
     
  17. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Kinda surprised Tauros didn't make the cut anywhere either?
     
  18. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Leftovers Exeggutor Psychic vs. Leftovers Nidoking: 275 - 324 (75.3 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
    Leftovers Nidoking Ice Beam vs. Leftovers Exeggutor: 161 - 190 (41 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers

    Thunder Nidoking doesn't beat Egg, though Fire Blast Nidoking usually does (Blizzard is <50% to hit twice).

    Moreover, beating a Pokemon 1v1 doesn't mean you're as good as it. Raikou is better than Marowak despite being OHKOed in the 1v1.
     
  19. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    That's only really relevant if you don't have Lovely Kiss on Nidoking, or have already slept something, you wont beat it 1 on 1 unless you get lucky, and your Marowak analogy favours Marowaks typing. Nidoking beats Raikou too btw and Marowak doesn't beat Cloyster which king does..
     
  20. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    What does Bel do better than Venu? I honestly don't see it, besides the ATK and stun spore. When Venu has better bulk and Bel has an awkward time fitting stun spore onto its set?

    As for Tauros, idk, I guess it could go in E rank? I would ask why one would use it, but fast normal is reasonably unique, and as it stands E rank is filled with pokemon that are terrible but kinda oddballish enough to be vaguely interesting. Not to mention that I ranked Ursa, and its niche is "shitty CurseLax with slightly better ATK stat"
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2015
  21. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    More like "glass-cannony Kangaskhan with no Substitute".

    Ursaring has Roar, which makes it significantly different from Lax as a Curser.
     
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  22. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Well I don't know that I'd definitively rank Victreebel above Venusaur, but it's different, it's a little more offensive and can boost up quicker, the fundamental differnce is Victreebel is a physical attacker, and Venusaur isn't. This is due to the attack stat and more than anything the fact Venusaur can't learn Sludge Bomb and Victreebel can. Venusaur standard set: Sleep Powder, Growth, Giga Drain, HP Fire. Victreebel standard set : Sleep Powder, Swords Dance, Sludge Bomb, HP Fire/Giga Drain. So they work differently, wouldn't argue that Victreebel is better, but it's certainly in Venusaurs ball park, it has been known to sweep good teams.

    And Tauros isn't like gen 1 Tauros for sure, but it's not bad; with Double Edge, Earthquake, Fire Blast it can be pretty good in gen 2, or even Double Edge Earthquake sleep talker with berserk gene. I would say it's more useable than Ursaring, *personally.
     
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  23. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    huh, must've overlooked sludge bomb. I guess it can go in E rank then
     
  24. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    [​IMG] Can this guy go in E?

    Its Attack falls short of maxing out after Belly Drum, but it still reaches a very dangerous 912 or 896 (HP Rock) which is combined with the threat of sleep for anything slower than it. You can either use LK to put something to sleep and set up Belly Drum, or use a predicted switch to Belly Drum and save up LK for anything slower that can retaliate before being KO'd.

    It needs Electrics paralyzed first to have any hope of a sweep though (Raikou can easily be baited by Zapdos and paralyzed with either Thunder or Thunder Wave if you want guaranteed paralysis), and if possible paralyzing other faster Pokemon helps too. I doubt its anywhere near the caliber of the other viable Belly Drummers, but its niche of fast LK + Belly Drum can be pretty effective in the right conditions (nearly swept Alexander with it, and might've won if Poliwhirl hadn't missed Lovely Kiss vs. his Snorlax).
     
  25. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    What does it have over Snorlax which also does Belly Drum + LK?

    The only niche I can see is it lets you carry your own Lax to do something else, and the advantage of not needing to be speed-passed to.
     
  26. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    That's exactly what its niche is, actually.
     
  27. supercube64

    supercube64 Member

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    Starmie for A. Not only is it arguably the best spinner in the tier, but it also one of the few pokemon and only spinner for that matter in the tier that gets access to a recovery move without having to rely on rest. Its the only spinner that can threaten Gengar(thanks to Psychic), and is tied for second fastest mon in the tier. It can have a wide variety of other moves including: Thunderbolt,Thunder wave,Thunder,Reflect,Light Screen,Ice beam,Blizzard,toxic(though who doesn't have this move? lol),etc. Not only does this Make Starmie incredibly useful in alot of different situations, but it can also be anything your team needs, along with being incredibly unpredictable. It threatens Cloyster, the most useful spiker in the meta . I'd even go as far as to say it should be an A+ mon. He should be out of B for sure however. If there's a good counter argument for why B is justified, I'm curious to see the reasoning.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2016
  28. Isa

    Isa Member

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    it is a free snorlax/electric switch, it cant keep spikes forever vs cloyster as soon as you take a toxic, being "the best spinner" is what makes it B already, it is very non-splashable as it stacks electric weaknesses and limits your offensive potential through virtue of not carrying spikes yourself unless you run cloyster+starmie or forretress+starmie in which case did you really need to have starmie to begin with

    it has a wide movepool but what are you really doing with it lol, you have recover+rspin set in stone, surf is also mandatory imo and then what? there's a few options yeah but the moment you drop psychic (or twave i guess) suddenly you dont get a guaranteed spin on gengar anymore.

    id rather drop suicune to b than raise starmie to a
     
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  29. supercube64

    supercube64 Member

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    True but so are most special attackers in GSC lol(in regards to Lax). Plus atleast Starmie can use Reflect or Toxic to compensate for this. Lax won't like Reflect up and toxic can be annoying to deal with. As for the electrics, again much like Lax they won't like Screen, and Twave can put them at a disadvantage. Sure Starmie isn't gonna wanna stay in against them but atleast it can do things to weaken them.

    Starmie gets Thunderbolt/thunder and can also inflict a toxic of its own on cloyster. No way cloyster is gonna wanna hang with starmie for very long Even without both of those moves. Starmie Surf vs. Cloyster: 80-95 (26.4 - 31.3%) -- 22% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery. Cloyster will still sustain massive amounts of damage by the time you even weaken Star with toxic, and that's just assuming it even hits the first time you use it against star to begin with. Sure it can also rest up the damage but even then that just gives me free time to rapid spin or set up a spikes of my own,etc while your Cloyster is immobile.


    I actually do run both Star and Cloy on the same team. Offensive cloy exists ya know? And Offensive doesn't run Spin. Actually running Star on your team while also running a spiker isn't a bad idea. Both Cloy and Fort fear Gengar because they aren't able to spin away the spikes on the field or threaten him with anything really. That's where star can come in. I also have star for checking Pure attacker Machamp.

    I don't agree with Surf being mandatory. Its good of course but I don't think its necessary and can be replaced by one of the other attacking moves depending on your team.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  30. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    The issue here is that most special attackers normally have ways of not being total Lax bait, whereas Star has to compromise its spinning capabilities in order to address the issue. Even then it's not great at doing so, as the best it can do is distribute status, which doesn't really stop Lax doing stuff in the short term, or set up Reflect which is a purely defensive move. By contrast, Zap's Thunders take sizable chunks out of Lax, Gengar and Egg have Explosion and sleep and so on. A similar thing holds true regarding Star's matchup against Electrics. And I'll also note that most of these measures only really work on predicted switches, in any other situation they fall flat.
    I guess the main issue here is that without Surf Starmie loses its best attack against Forretress, which can actually make it really tough to keep spikes off against it. Also what do you replace Surf with? As far as mono-STAB goes, Water's not that bad, but the same can't be said of stuff like Psychic. This is especially pertinent when you consider that checking Ground types is a big part of Star's defensive utility, while Surf is also useful for handling TTar.
     
  31. supercube64

    supercube64 Member

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    I feel that your underestimating these options. while toxic won't stop lax immediately, it will certainly have no choice but to eventually rest or switch depending on the set. Reflect is actually really useful against Lax. Lax's offense is eminently disadvantaged while reflect is active.
    +1 Snorlax Double-Edge vs. Skarmory through Reflect: 40-48 (12 - 14.4%)
    +4 Snorlax Return vs. Skarmory through Reflect: 68-81 (20.4 - 24.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 Snorlax Earthquake vs. Steelix through Reflect: 71-84 (20.1 - 23.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 Snorlax Earthquake vs. Tyranitar through Reflect: 108-128 (26.7 - 31.7%) -- 29.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    To put into perspective just how much of a difference reflect makes. Lax use to have a guaranteed 3HKO on Skar with drum and return. With reflect up, its not even guaranteed a 6HKO. That's a significant difference. Of course its only temporary, but it allows you to check lax without the risk of sustaining much damage.

    Zap can thunder, but that's really all it has against Lax. It can Phaze and setup reflect on Lax yes, but it forces Zap to give up on RestTalk. Giving up on its role entirely as a very threatening tank. Thunder's acc sucks so it becomes a game of chance. If the Lax is running body slam it threatens to paralyze Zap, and if its running double-edge, It becomes 3HKO on Zap. If Zap does get paralyzed from Slam Thunder needs to hit consistently in order for Zap to stand a chance and hope you can paralyze and get lucky that he will be immobile from para or/and get a crit(though most would probably not keep zap in at this point). You could argue in the case of Raikou does more against Lax but Rai can only 5HKO with thunder unlike Zap which has a decent chance of 4HKO. Not to mention he's weak EQ, which is a move many Lax's have in their moveset. Rai Much like Zap doesn't like getting paralyzed by body slam. He's less bulkier than Zap also. Though he can afford to run both Reflect and Phaze out Lax with Roar unlike Zap. Both Eggy and Gengar can put him to sleep and explode on him yes, but here's the thing, those options are very situational and not guaranteed. Gengar can't OHKO Lax with explosion, so most good players would switch out their lax in order to prevent death if their lax is weakened. Eggy has a 23% chance of an OHKO. Again any player with experience wouldn't risk this. If you mispredict and explode, you basically wasted the sacrifice of an entire mon to take out my lax. I'm not saying that these pokemon aren't better than Starmie at taking care of Lax, but I feel the difference between what they can do, and what Starmie can do isn't really isn't as significant to the extent you seem to be implying. I would argue against your point in regards to the electrics as well, but I'll move on since this will already be a longer post than anticipated.

    Starmie already has a hard time facing off against Fort even with surf. Hp bug and toxic are star's worst enemies in regards to that matchup. To make matters worst, It can OHKO Starmie with Explode. Even with the 3HKO from surf, Fortress is generally favored in the matchup.

    Yeah I'll admit this is a good point. Now that I think about it, surf is pretty important for Starmie to have in its moveset.
     
  32. supercube64

    supercube64 Member

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    Thinking about it now actually, I realize my argument for why Starmie should be higher is flawed. Spin,recover, and surf are a given, and are mandatory for star.You will only have 1 last slot to deal with certain Mons. Which brings me to my next point. It will never be able to fully deal with certain Pokemon in the meta.If you get rid of psychic, Gengar doesn't have to fear Star nearly as much, and can safely spin block. Getting rid of reflect or Toxic means Lax is a 100% free switch in without having anything to fear from star. No light screen or T-wave means Electrics also get a free switch. Even then as Ortheore stated, Star isn't as effective at dealing with its checks as other pokmon are. Its thanks to me rereading Isa's comment actually that I realized this.
     
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  33. supercube64

    supercube64 Member

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    I haven't really used Golem in OU so feel free to inform me but should golem really be that low in comparison to his other Rock/ground counterpart Rhydon? I mean he does get explosion and can take special attacks slightly better than Rhydon. Not to mention he's slightly faster than Rhydon. Being able to outspeed many pokemon such as forrtress. If I'm missing something here feel free to inform me of course. I just don't see Rhydon being a rank higher than Golem.

    Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. Golem: 154-182 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. Rhydon: 187-220 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2016
  34. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    He also gets Rapid Spin as an NYPC event move, so it has EQ / Rock Slide / Fire Blast / Rapid Spin / Explosion as well as Curse and Roar iirc?
     
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  35. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Yeah, that's correct. Also remember that Rock Slide is either an Egg Move or Gen 1 tradeback move and Rapid Spin is NYPC, so you have to use HP Rock if you want Rock STAB and Rapid Spin.
     
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  36. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Hmm, obviously the perception is that Rhydon is better. I guess this arises from the fact that it has a very clear role and it performs it effectively. Golem on the other hand has like several different things it attempts to do: It wants to explode, spin and phaze all while wanting several different coverage options: dual STAB, Fire Blast, HP Bug, that kinda thing. Usually finding a compromise between these roles gives a result that's just underwhelming. Also there's the fact that Rhydon's a bit more powerful.

    That I think is the general rationale behind the ranking discrepancy. To be honest, I'm with you in not buying that Golem is worse than Rhydon by a huge amount. There's practically no difference between them defensively, while the main point in the above paragraph can be described as being spoilt for choice. I could just as easily talk about how Golem has a host of different options available to fill whatever role your team needs. The power difference is significant, but imo not enough to account for this discrepancy. I'm inclined to agree that they could be the same rank, but I'd like to see what other people have to say
     
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  37. supercube64

    supercube64 Member

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    Yeah I would like to hear more thoughts in regards to this actually. Rhydon definetly has the better stats for sure. Just the fact that Golem has the strongest explosion (not just in the tier, but in the entire game) is really a good niche alone. It gets spin like Disaster mentioned (though I'm not particularly sure if it could fill the role of a spinner decently). Plus like Enigami stated, he has to give up Slide for HP rock
     
  38. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Surely Lax's Self-Destruct is stronger than Golem's Explosion?
     
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  39. supercube64

    supercube64 Member

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    Yeah you're right my mistake actually. Though I'm not technically wrong from my wording since self destruct isn't the same as explosion :p
     
  40. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Any reason why Electrode isn't ranked? I've been playing around it a bit, though I haven't really tested it in high level games yet. Yeah, it's pretty much a crappy Raikou, but it does have one big niche over all other Electrics (Explosion) and a smaller one (super speed, just enough to be faster than +2 Marowak!).

    I found it could be pretty fun on a really aggressive team since Raikou/Snorlax/Blissey/etc. can't just freely recover on your Electric once they've taken some damage.
     
  41. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    honestly I didn't consider it, but based on what you're saying it seems fair in E rank
     
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  42. Hydreigon6497

    Hydreigon6497 Member

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    shouldn't Nidoqueen be ranked? I understand that she's a weaker and slower version of nidoking, but I think her slightly better bulk is enough to justify for her to be in atleast E rank.
     
  43. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    "The purpose of this thread is to rank all of the pokemon in GSC OU in approximate order of their effectiveness."

    When talking about the pokemon that are categorized in ou, bl, and uu that is super subjective. If I didn't know what the purpose of this list was I would look at it and say "oh, someone made a list based on how often the pokemon are used." That's exactly what this list looks like and is probably accurate. I feel like a list like this encourages close mindedness. If newer less experienced people actually believe that this is a list based on effectiveness they will only use the pokemon at the top and disregard the pokemon lower down. Pokemon tier list shouldn't work like a fighting game tier list because that's not how pokemon works. You don't make teams of one in pokemon so listing them indivudually in tiers seems pointless. It's wrong, for example, to think that Raikou is just in fact better than ampharos. Better at what? It depends on what you need on the team. Do you need a special wall, and a phazer, and an electric? If you asked me for that I'd say "choose raikou" . Do you need an electric with thunder wave but also need a pokemon that can take special attacks like raikou? Then I'd tell you ampharos is the best choice. It is better than zapdos, raichu, electabuzz, electrode, when it comes to that specific role. I just don't see pokemon tiers like you guys do at all.

    There is only 1 pokemon who can't be replaced on a team in ou and that is snorlax. Every other pokemon can, and should, be replaced depending on what your team needs. Thinking "im going to put this poke right here because it's ranked high" is a mistake. You should ask yourself "what role do i need right here and what pokemon fits that role best?"
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  44. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    What are you on about lol

    No, this list is (meant) to be ranked based on how viable each of the pokemon are. It is likely it'll mirror usage to some extent but that's not what it's designed to do. If you think there's some inaccuracies regarding the list then comment on them so we can improve it?

    We don't have BL / UU here why are you talking about them?

    Anyway we're not changing our viability rankings system but I think you seem a little confused about what it's for. It's meant to be used as a rough, basic guide for newer players to help them get into the tier; it provides a threatlist which can be useful when teambuilding even as an experienced player; we use it to determine our tiers. The logic behind that, is that the goal of tiering is to create a tier for every Pokemon (in theory) where they are viable enough that you can use those pokemon without it being detrimental to your team.

    If you want players to have a more nuanced approach, maybe you could help and write Pokemon analyses for us? Obviously you can't tell why you should use Raikou instead of Ampharos very easily from just looking at the list, their stats, and their movepools. So for example if you were to write an Ampharos analysis then you could explain in what situations it's worth using over Raikou, or if it should be used alongside Raikou or Zapdos or something, and what it does and why.

    Also @ the lax point, Conflict got to the finals of the latest GSC MT without using one. Obviously take from that what you will. And anyway, the OP makes it clear that Lax should be on every serious team, so what's your issue?
     
  45. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    The close-mindedness point I think is flawed- for newer players they absolutely should be sticking to standard pokemon when they set out in the tier as they learn the ropes, as less viable pokemon are simply harder to make effective use of. As for more experienced players, they have their own judgement and opinions and would generally know what this list is about as viability rankings are pretty popular here and on other sites so it's not hard to pick up.

    Also this list isn't saying "pokemon X is invariably better than pokemon Y". I mean, that's just common sense really, as it's super rare for a pokemon to be literally outclassed in every respect (assuming we don't count NFEs). Having said that, it's indisputable that some pokemon are better in more situations than others. Sure, Ampharos has its niche over Raikou, but it's totally fair to say that Raikou is the better choice in the majority of situations, and therefore is generally more useful. This is why it's ranked much higher, but Ampharos being ranked reflects the fact that it has its advantages, enough to potentially justify use
     
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  46. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    I'm not sure if I have ever played the first two opponents conflict beat in that tournament so I can't honestly speak about their gen 2 skill level, but I've played james g many times and wasn't afraid of him losing to a laxless team for a second. I don't think we should take anything away from conflict beating his first two opponents except the fact that conflict is a good player. You can use a laxless team but you are handicapping yourself if you do. I have never seen a team that wouldn't benefit from lax. Lax is the optimal pokemon in that slot. In the other 5 slots there is no such thing as optimal, only personal preference. Which is why I don't agree with the wording of the whole tier list.

    I just think saying this is a list based on "effectiveness" is weird. And this list is obviously not even that. This list is actually just what pokemon players see being effective in tournament and else where most often. For example, look at smeargle. Are you seriously telling me he is better than jynx, houndoom, and golem??? And not even that but that he is equal to tentacruel, charizard, and rhydon? Those are some solid pokemon that perform super well. Smeargle teams rarely work. I'm not saying they can't but it is obvious to me that the only reason he is ranked so high is that he is seen more often than the pokemon he is ranked above like houndoom (houndoom is a freakin beast btw).

    Anyway. I just wanted to offer my two cents. I think all pokemon listed can be effective and I simply don't believe one is flat out better than the other besides snorlax. I understand wanting new players to use the top pokemon listed because they are the most used and therefore easier to watch other players use them and learn. But if we didn't condemn what you guys consider the "lower ranked" pokemon then more people might use them and their would be top players using those pokes and newer players could watch them and learn. For example I've noticed an increase in people using ampharos after playing me on pokemon showdown or just copying the team I'm using flat out.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  47. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Nobody 'condemns' the low ranked Pokemon.

    S ranked Pokemon = Pokemon that are so good that they should be on virtually every team, and if not there should be a good reason for it.

    High ranked Pokemon = Pokemon that are splashable or so effective in their specialized role they should be used majority of the time

    Low ranked Pokemon = Pokemon that can work, but are often overshadowed by other Pokemon or specialized such that they require certain matchups, or teammates, or any number of factors that make it less likely to win the battle.

    I've won serious matches with low ranked Pokemon, to the point that I'm considered more gimmicky than Disaster Area. For some examples, I've won serious RBY matches using mons like Porygon (even rampaged through RBY ladder on Showdown at one point) and Muk, very nearly swept Alexander in GSC once using a Poliwhirl (just got unlucky with several Lovely Kiss misses in the end game), and in ADV I've seen success using DragonPass Smeargle (haven't been able to play it in PP ADV tournaments yet though). I know very well that low ranked Pokemon can be effective.

    And I know that their use usually should be discouraged. They're usually low ranked not because they aren't used, but because they are often less reliable and likely to achieve victory than things above them.

    If you think certain Pokemon are more/less effective than the rank they're in, then make your argument for them to be moved instead of complaining about the system. Even if we were to scrap the viability rankings, most players will usually figure out the 'top tiers' and just play with those since they're playing to win, so regardless it takes the time and effort of players like us interested in exploring how to make alternative strategies/Pokemon effective to cause shifts.

    If players want to use low ranked Pokemon, they should try to understand why it's usually worse than the higher ranked Pokemon so when they DO use it, they can make sure to focus on its strengths. Which is where analyses can be a big help, explaining those weaknesses and strengths to any player that wants to try something different. And if players see solid results with those Pokemon, they can have their viability ranking increased to reflect that.

    Unfortunately, we're sorely lacking in writers of GSC analyses. 19 GSC Master Tournaments, and we've got... Ortheore's Snorlax article. And my incomplete Dodrio analysis, which is only relevant once pre-damage is implemented (it'll be implemented soon!). So... any interest in contributing? Like an analysis on Ampharos for example?
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
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  48. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Sure. I can write something up for a few pokemon. Could I start with Charizard though? I feel like a lot of players (even some top players) seriously don't understand how to use him. I've been using him a lot lately so he is fresh on my mind. Where do I go to write something up?
     
  49. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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  50. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Yeah sure :) Write whatever you like

    Individual Analyses | Pokémon Perfect

    just post it in there. The format is given in this (stickied) thread: All Gens - Analysis Format | Pokémon Perfect have a look at a couple other analyses in the forum to get a sense of how one 'looks'. If you want to add in additional sections on top of what's included in the format that's fine.

    If you post it before it is complete, put [WIP] in the title. If you have completed it, put [GP Ready] in the title. This means that it's ready for grammar / prose checks (basically to check the grammar and stuff is right) although players can still comment on it, and you can still make changes to it even if that's in the title. ^_^

    edit: Enigami beat me to it :p
     

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