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ORAS 1U (Universal) Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Disaster Area, Apr 6, 2015.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Welcome to the ORAS 1U Viability Ranking Thread! In case you're not familiar with the concept, we place Pokémon in certain ranks here, based on their impact on the tier as well as their general viability in the tier. This is an excellent help while teambuilding and it serves as a general outline of the tier. Furthermore it is used in our formation of the tier below.

    If you feel that a Pokémon is misplaced, feel free to make a post about it - that's what this thread is for. As long as you are reasonably sensible and courteous this thread should run smoothly.

    Pokémon are sorted into the respective categories based on how well they perform their roles. Within each ranking Pokemon are listed alphabetically to avoid overcomplication.

    Banlist/Rules
    S Rank

    These Pokemon excel at their roles in the tier to such a point that they are the most dominating forces.

    [​IMG] Arceus-Ghost - Analysis
    [​IMG] Darkrai - Analysis
    [​IMG] Ho-oh - Analysis
    [​IMG] Kyogre - Analysis

    A Rank

    These Pokemon perform significant roles in the metagame, and perform them very well, however they are not the most dominating forces.

    A+
    [​IMG] Arceus - Analysis
    [​IMG] Groudon - Analysis
    [​IMG] Latias (Regular) - Analysis
    [​IMG][​IMG] Mewtwo (Regular, Mega Y) - Analysis
    [​IMG] Sableye (Mega) - Analysis
    [​IMG] Xerneas - Analysis
    [​IMG] Yveltal - Analysis

    A
    [​IMG] Blaziken (Mega) - Analysis
    [​IMG] Deoxys-S - Analysis
    [​IMG] Dialga - Analysis
    [​IMG] Genesect - Analysis
    [​IMG] Palkia - Analysis
    [​IMG] Rayquaza - Analysis
    [​IMG] Zekrom - Analysis

    A-
    [​IMG] Arceus-Electric - Analysis
    [​IMG] Arceus-Grass - Analysis
    [​IMG] Arceus-Rock - Analysis
    [​IMG] Arceus-Water - Analysis
    [​IMG] Giratina-O - Analysis
    [​IMG] Klefki - Analysis
    [​IMG] Latios (Regular) - Analysis
    [​IMG] Lugia - Analysis

    B Rank

    These Pokemon are strong choices in the metagame, but perform less important roles or are less consistent than Pokémon in the Rank above. They have larger flaws than Pokémon in above ranks, or face greater competition from similar Pokemon, reducing their usefulness.

    B+
    [​IMG] Arceus-Dark - Analysis
    [​IMG] Arceus-Ground - Analysis
    [​IMG] Deoxys-A - Analysis
    [​IMG] Ferrothorn - Analysis
    [​IMG] Gliscor - Analysis
    [​IMG] Kangaskhan (Mega) - Analysis
    [​IMG] Landorus-T - Analysis
    [​IMG] Tyranitar (Regular) - Analysis

    B
    [​IMG] Arceus-Fairy - Analysis
    [​IMG] Diancie (Mega)
    [​IMG] Lucario (Mega)
    [​IMG] Shaymin-S
    -------------------- Everything above this line is 1U -------------------- Everything below this line is 2U --------------------
    [​IMG] Chansey
    [​IMG] Jirachi
    [​IMG] Sylveon - Analysis
    [​IMG] Terrakion

    B-
    [​IMG] Aegislash
    [​IMG] Arceus-Poison
    [​IMG] Blissey
    [​IMG] Clefable
    [​IMG] Heatran
    [​IMG] Reshiram
    [​IMG] Skarmory

    C Rank

    These Pokemon are more infrequent sights in the metagame, particularly in top level matches, but are nevertheless viable Pokemon. They are less effective in the metagame than Pokémon in above ranks, but are effective with proper support.


    C+
    [​IMG] Arceus-Fighting
    [​IMG] Bronzong
    [​IMG] Cloyster
    [​IMG] Excadrill
    [​IMG] Giratina
    [​IMG] Mawile (Mega)
    [​IMG] Mewtwo (Mega X) - Analysis
    [​IMG] Scolipede
    [​IMG] Smeargle - Analysis

    C
    [​IMG] Arceus-Steel
    [​IMG] Gastrodon
    [​IMG] Hippowdon
    [​IMG] Metagross (Mega)
    [​IMG] Kyurem-W
    [​IMG] [​IMG] Scizor (Regular, Mega)
    [​IMG] Slowbro (Mega)
    [​IMG] Whimsicott

    C-
    [​IMG] Alomomola
    [​IMG] Amoonguss
    [​IMG] Arceus-Dragon
    [​IMG] Arceus-Flying
    [​IMG] Arceus-Psychic
    [​IMG] Blaziken (Regular) - Analysis
    [​IMG] Chesnaught
    [​IMG] Cresselia
    [​IMG] Ditto
    [​IMG] Forretress
    [​IMG] Garchomp (Regular)
    [​IMG] Gyarados (Mega)
    [​IMG] Greninja
    [​IMG] Hoopa-U
    [​IMG] Salamence (Regular)
    [​IMG] Tentacruel
    [​IMG] Thundurus
    [​IMG] Tyranitar (Mega) - Analysis
    [​IMG] Umbreon
    [​IMG] Venusaur (Mega)
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
    Plancklength likes this.
  2. Dilbae

    Dilbae Member

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    Darkrai for A+, pretty much dents any team with its good speed tier and the major disruption it causes with sleep. Can run a varied movepool too to get past would-be checks such as Taunt or Thunder for Ho-oh and Kyogre. Incredibly self-sufficient mons who does not need support. Will drop a little more opinions on mons later but g2g soon.

    Some questions though:

    What makes Aegislash and Forretress so high? Also Kyu-W should at least be B-. C+ is a little rude to it =[
     
  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    With Darkrai, is the lack of synergy defensively it provides at all an issue?

    Aegislash I rated so highly since it checks xerneas very well, as well as being the most reliable pursuit trapper of Lati@s without requiring your mega slot.

    Maybe I'm rating forretress a bit highly.

    What does Kyurem-W really do that other stuff can't though? I see it is being a slightly more powerful reshiram lol.
     
  4. Dilbae

    Dilbae Member

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    I guess it's an issue that prevents it from being any higher than A+, idk maybe it's just my opinion but I definitely see it as threatening as those in A+, it is really hard to check. Let's say you even have the perfect moment, Sleep Talk Ho-oh with no rocks up for example. There is still no gaurantee you can go on to check it because bad Sleep Talk rolls exist, as well as waking up at a bad time. If it is CB Ho-oh it becomes worse because you are locked into Sleep Talk.

    As for Aegislash, is Geoxern not banned? Like that was its biggest niche in XY and ORAS but even then it's not good enough to be anywhere near A on their viability rankings. The absence of Geoxern makes checking Xerneas not that huge, but I guess trapping Latis is big. Outside of that though it's kinda of eh, like S rank mons Ho-oh, Ekiller and Ghostceus laugh at it, as well as other good things like Yveltal and Darkrai. It's not a bad mon but I feel A is a little too high.

    I'm not that concerned about Kyu-W's rank but it's odd to see Pokemon like Deo-D above it at B-, while it at C+ is on the same level as niche things like Charizard and Gyarados. It has bad defensive synergy at all but is ridiculously difficult to switch into safely. Its quite similar to Ho-oh in that its hard to check, except its typing, ability and maybe stat spread is inferior. It has stellar coverage and ridiculous wallbreaking power which is why I feel C+ is a little too low.
     
  5. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Kyurem-W C+ -> B-
    Deoxys-D B- -> C+
    Aegislash A -> A-

    i could put aegi lower though for sure, I really think that it fits well in this metagame though.
     
  6. ApplepieFTW

    ApplepieFTW Member

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    Ok I'll try commenting on everything (I care about)

    Arceus - yh
    Arceus-Ghost - to a, this may have gotten better because it checks latis, but things that check ghosts got more common too because they check the latis. good, definitely. s-rank? no, it's just not good enough for s-rank. it may fit the current description, but I think it's a bit flawed. still to A+
    Ho-oh - yh, defog latis+ho-oh have awesome synergy. the thing that set ho-oh back the most was mence, but now you can fearlessly switch into (most, at least) the things that check latis and sd/bb away.
    Mewtwo - yh

    A Rank
    These Pokemon are exceptional at their roles, performing significant roles in the metagame, however they are not the most dominating forces.

    A+
    Blaziken - no. how is this even near a+, it's just not that good. latias hurts this mon (cant break trough it with sd, has to run /suboptimal/ 3atks), and is suuuuper frail and revenged by all priority ever. there are better megas, this often doesnt justify a slot. A-
    Dialga - sure, soft lati check now too. soft cm arc check is nice, rocks etc just a good mon
    Kyogre - not yet sure on this, a- might not be a bad idea for fine for now
    Latias - yh
    Latios - yh
    Sableye - yh
    Yveltal - yh, most likely. never liked this mon too much, gained a bit lost a bit in PP ubers

    A
    Arceus-Rock - no. it's ground weak which is obnoxious. defogging is made much harder because of this. yeah a great ho-oh check is nice for it just often fails to do its job well in practice. A-at best
    Arceus-Water - latis are better ogre checks, cm+refresh is tough because of latis. checking ho-oh is nice, but this mon got worse for sure. A- at best
    Darkrai - at the very least, not sure but I really wouldnt be opposed to a+
    Giratina-O - yh good mon, does useful stuff and fits on many teams, still has its fair share of checks but good indeed
    Gliscor - this probably always deserves the same rank as don, but don got more worse (can you say that?) so idk. makes me want to put don in a-, but this can stay for now. it's not good enough compared to other mons that should be here though probably
    Groudon - yh sure, also got worse because of but is still a good catch-all physical check
    Palkia - this lost a fair bit of it's niche, still fucks over teams without a good switch-in, but latis check ogre too and also check palkis. maybe a- but fine for now
    Xerneas - yh

    A-
    Aegislash - dont think this mon is good, but pursuit is rather nice
    Arceus-Electric - cm ice beam still hits latis, soft bird check is nice, decent mon in general
    Arceus-Fairy - I guess, there are more things that check yvetal and latis, but ehh. actually yh B+, just not that good running other arcs is nicer
    Arceus-Poison no, xern got worse for sure and latis existing sucks. B/B-
    Deoxys-A - um probably
    Diancie - yh
    Forretress - seems about right
    Genesect - not a stellar mon, one time lati check but just isnt that good. B
    Lugia - yh sure
    Klefki - it's fine in here, but I think it could go A-mid for sure. checking latis is very nice, and it's checks xern+yveltal+rogue set-up sweepers too. now that I think about it,A-mid because in practice it's very useful and often fits nicely
    Landorus-T - urg the 3 grounds, lant don and glisc, how do they compare. idk man tbh, just keep it here I guess
    Rayquaza - fine, but not that great. wouldnt be surprised if people agree with b+, but this is fine
    Sylveon - this sucks, it's not good at doing what you want it to do and often stuff mostly does it better. B- is way too generous, C+

    edit: ok jk the C+ mons really suck, B+

    B Rank

    These Pokemon are strong choices in the metagame, but may suffer from inconsistency due to luck or matchup much moreso than the Pokemon in the Rank above. They have larger flaws or competition from other similar Pokemon which reduce their usefulness, but they're still considered metagame staples.

    B+
    Arceus-Dark - sure
    Arceus-Grass - other stuff checks ogre, latis hurt this quite a bit. check to grounds is nice, but defs got worse. either B+ or B
    Clefable - yh sure, phys def checks latis too which is nice!
    Deoxys-S - ugh, I guess
    Excadrill - whynaut
    Kangaskhan - yh
    Metagross - doesnt seem gr8, but does well vs latis+xern which is nice
    Scizor - fine for now, pursuit is nice but this doesnt seem that good
    Tyranitar - yh, definitely good
    Zekrom - life orb is an excellent stallbreaker, scarf a good revenge killer. 50//50's are annoying as ever tho, but a little less because xern is a bit less common. fine in here

    B
    Arceus-Ground - um w/e sure
    Chansey - can we unban gengar please?
    Ferrothorn - can go higher maybe, but is fine here
    Forretress - this is ranked twice, it belongs in the higher rank
    Heatran - C+
    Jirachi - fine indeed
    Quagsire - bad, basicly unviable. C is too generous, C-
    Shaymin-S - fine
    Skarmory - B-
    Thundurus - C+
    Victini - B-

    B-
    Blissey - sure
    Cloyster - sure
    Greninja - sure
    Hippodown - sure
    Kyurem-W - this mon doesnt do anything, but sure
    Lucario - sure
    Whimsicott - this is not good, C+ is still somewhat generous
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2015
  7. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    > quagsire basically unviable.

    Changes:
    Arceus-Ghost S -> A+
    Blaziken - A+ -> A-
    Arceus-Water A -> A-
    Arceus-Fairy A- -> B+
    Arceus-Poison A- -> B
    Klefki A- -> A
    Sylveon A- -> B+
    Skarmory B -> B-
    Thundurus B -> C+
    Victini B -> B-
    Whimsicott B- -> C+

    Not Changed:
    Arceus-Rock - I'm keeping this at A Rank atm, I feel that Ho-oh being S means that what it offers is really important in the meta, and it fits pretty well on full stall, which is definitely the direction the meta is sorta gravitating towards.
    Genesect - Whilst the greater presence of Ho-oh is an issue, the ability to soft check a lot of mons on offensive teams [any dragons/fairy nearly, and other stuff like latis and darkrai], it means that against teams even that handle it well it can be threatening and let in a lot of frailer offensive threats. It seems crisp in this meta, but if others disagree I'll move it down. Voltturn seems to be the best way to go with a lot of offense actually :eek:
    Heatran - I know it's a bit controversial to be a bit high, but I think it's a good meta call. Checking Ho-oh AND Stalltwo is pretty hot (although with SR being harder to keep up, Ho-oh can do a lot of that). However it also can check Mega Sableye AND Mega Diancie - both magic bouncers, due to the burn threat of lava plume, and the quadruple-effective flash cannon. Furthermore it can act as a phazer vs stall that isn't walled by ferro and spikes bait [e.g. giratina lugia palkia etc]. It also soft checks xern, and can soft check a lot of common CM arceuses, and stallbreaks well. That's why I rate it B rather than C+, it's a great stallbreaker that also checks a couple of S rank mons to an usable extent.

    Changed in ways not suggested:
    Quagsire - Hey this thing is bae. Basically a hard counter of ekiller + CM Eleceus + Mega Blaze, and a check to Zekrom, whilst also being able to check mega kang or all CM arceuses depending on what your team needs and EV spread. It does nothing to stall unfortunately. I'm agreeing ok it's not B rank material maybe but I'll put it in C+ since it niche counters a weird/useful mix of mons.
     
  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Added king breelom to C-, moved gliscor to A+ from A.
     
  9. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    moving lando-t from A- to B-. It was overrated in XY as it was, and in ORAS mega sableye shits on it so hard.
     
  10. WreckDra

    WreckDra Member

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    If only Violet Version was a server i could log onto ;[
    Either way, I think Groudon being A- is a bit too low, I will see if or when I am able to play the tier.
     
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Yeah I'm starting to get a feel that its a pretty great mon atm, checking ekiller, and setting rocks, and giving ho-oh and blaze sun, these are all cool traits. Maybe A rank might suit it better? Damn tho we need more fites =[
     
  12. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Moving forre from A- to C, it's not good.
     
  13. Starmei

    Starmei Member

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    Kabu and Kingdra aren't mentioned, v nice especially w/ regular rain. Gr9 mons, B- imo
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2015
  14. Starmei

    Starmei Member

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    As a starting place for Hoopa-u I would put it at B+. Vs bulkier teams - being balance and stall - it can put in a ridiculous amounts of work but it held back because it's pretty mediocre vs offence because of its poor defensive typing, low defence stat and reasonably low speed meaning most offensive mons can just flat out ohko it. The reason I'm recommending B+ is because once it gets off a Nasty Plot stall has very limited switchins and with access to Psyshock special walls like blissey/chansey get bopped.

    Regular Hoopa - Pretty much outclassed by Hoopa-Unbound stat wise so there isn't a whole lot of reason to use this but the one thing it does have is ghost typing, making it immune to extreme speed. So with a Scarf this thing could potentially put in some work, it still has a nice SpA stat and with immunity to the most common priority move which gives it an advantage as a scarfer over Hoopa-U. Scarf Hoopa could potentially check Ekiller with Focus Blast (It doesn't ohko but it does a nice chunk) and some other things. Recommending C+ for this.

    Will edit/post again with some recommendations for other mons too in a bit
     
    Disaster Area likes this.
  15. Starmei

    Starmei Member

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    edited out bc long af. updating VR w/ disaster area in a seperate way
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2016
  16. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    @ Ho-oh - Disagree with the idea of it in A+. Hazards are much easier to keep off than in XY, soul dew and magic bounce make sure of that. As far as I see it, Ho-oh *is* the metagame lol. But it both combines checking/countering various threats with really good offensive presence that no team can fully prevent the force of, as well as has the capacity to run a few different sets that are effective.
    @ Dialga - Ok will move to A.
    @ Gliscor - I'll put it A, big fan of how it holds up against Ho-oh though.
    @ Kyogre - Okay I'll put it S just out of its sheer versatility, although I think lati@s make it quite manageable, it's a real big one to prepare for.
    @ Darkrai - Ok will move to A+.
    @ Groudon - Ok because of versatility will move to A+.
    @ Aegislash - I disagree, pursuiting latis, answering xern very solidly (no subgeo to worry about, reflect is not that big of a deal), the ability to toxic ho-oh, check mewtwo (hates wisp and isn't too keen on fire blast) it just does a lot. It has more to work with than in XY, pursuiting latis being the biggest change for it. Reduction in stalltwo due to m-sab is in its favour too.
    @ Rayquaza - Ok will move to A.
    @ Arc-Ground - I guess, not a mon I really use. Will move to B+.
    @ Arc-Poison - You've missed one or two key things actually. The absence of gothitelle is welcomed for CM sets, and in terms of the defog set, being Toxic-immune is really good, as it's much harder to wear down.
    @ Sylveon - I'll put it C+ but the fact it beats all non-CM xern is actually pretty neat, and it does clerical duties really well.
    @ Deo-d - C sure.
    @ Arc-Fighting - would argue it being a good answer to both ekiller and darkrai in the same mon is enough to merit C. I would use it.
    @ Arc-Psychic - sure C-.
    @ Kabutops/Kingdra/Ludicolo/Omastar - Not really sold. Kingdra can't even break past ferro which sucks for a rain team, at least kabu can spin. Will put kabu to C+. And Ludi too. Oma to C sounds fine.
    @ Loppunny - C sure.
    @ Resh - I guess C is ok. Dragceus checks Kyogre tho, and has boosting moves.
    @ terrak - when i see it work. For now it stays
     
  17. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Just realised, Blaziken (non mega) probably needs a place on the viab rankings.
     
  18. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Changes and Discussion Points

    I'll implement on Monday, but you're free to discuss and disagree with and argue with and against and suggest of your own changes to the viability rankings, indeed this is welcomed.

    [​IMG] Mewtwo Regular -> B
    If you're using regular Mewtwo you're using one of either the LO variant or Stalltwo [Recover Wisp Taunt Psystrike]. LO Mewtwo is a slightly stronger version of Mewtwo Y that doesn't burn your mega slot (so for example, you could run a Magic Bouncer or Mega Blaze alongside) at the cost of being worn down easier. Stalltwo has suffered from Ho-oh being so dominant (since it does very little to it especially if it comes in for free, such as whenever it's not using its psystrike [i.e. ho-oh switches in on some other attack]) and it sucks vs M-sableye, making its balance-breaking abilities mediocre, whilst its lack fo Normal-resist makes it a less-valuable eiller set. Still, combined with to some degree the unpredictability and the raw power of the LO set, I feel it deserves B.
    [​IMG] Latios -> A-
    Controversial perhaps to split up the Lati twins, but the only real draws over Latias are Memento (which is actually pretty cool..) and being a more effectivel Calm Mind user, whilst it's a shakier check to Kyogre at best. Latias has Healing Wish and plain superior bulk, and is a uch better fit on Ho-oh teams.
    [​IMG] Dialga -> A-
    Pretty much all it does a good job of is setting Stealth Rocks and checking a couple of oddball mons for offense [Zekrom, Eleceus, softly checking any dragon type other than Rayquaza, ScarfOgre depending on Dialga Spread] but it's not very versatile, not hugely consistent (versus Sun builds you struggle getting rocks up due to Groudon) and it costs it a lot of EVs to break past M-Sableye that just hugely hurts its ability to take on other threats (namely Kyogre). Even though its movepool is cool, it really struggles to fit anything that varied on [Stealth Rock / Draco meteor / Fire Blast or Flash Cannon / Toxic or Thunder Wave is the set that it can run] and other Rockers provide more consistent utility in general. Still, a good and unique mon, so A-.
    [​IMG] Giratina-O -> A-
    Lati twins give it a bit of a push for a niche, in fact being a much worse answer to Kyogre (it'd never be your only Kyogre check on the team for example), with a worse base speed, its main advantages being its Ghost typing, letting it check Ekiller (and less importantly Spinblock), and it's much less pursuit weak (due to having the tools to mess with various trappers) whilst having a huge movepool and wide variety of tools, and the stats to just about back it up. Being able to lure various threats such as Ho-oh and Klefki with Stone Edge and Earthquake/HP Fire respectively is neat.
    [​IMG] Blaziken (Mega) -> A
    This mon's pretty heat. It's quite customisable and very powerful, not too difficult to set up, and offers a bit of synergy, being able to check Darkrai once something's been slept and potentially act as a revenge killer for a team. With Knock Off and Stone Edge it can get around common checks (though often Swords Dance, Protect, and 2 STABs is all it needs), and support form Lati@s (Memento or Healing Wish), Groudon (Sun), and there being a fair few options of mons to help break teams alongside it (Ekiller, SD Arc-Ghost, Rayquaza...) it's at least A-worthy imo. Maybe A+? Thoughts?
    [​IMG] Deoxys-A -> B+
    A stealth Rock setter is pretty ineffective, given how much it struggles with M-Sableye, but a Life Orb set can be pretty monstrous. It only gets B+ through its incredible breaking abilities, but maybe I'm underrating it?
    [​IMG] Genesect -> A
    One of the handful of steel-types that doesn't mind Ho-oh (due to its U-turn), it's a gerat pivot for Offense, with a stellar defensive typing, helping wtih Mewtwo, Ekiller, Rayquaza, Lati@s, and Xerneas (as well as other lesser threats), whilst supporting frailer but more powerful threats, such as Darkrai and Deoxys-A, helping them enter the battlefield. Good momentum stealer with usable bulk.
    [​IMG] Mewtwo (Mega X) -> C+
    It pretty much is only worth using for being able to take on Darkceus and Tyranitar, whilst all of Mewtwo's regular answers and then some handle it even better. Am I being too harsh though?
    [​IMG] Excadrill -> B
    It fills certain niches and is the most guarantee'd way to get your Rocks up if you really desperately need them, and it messes with Zekrom and Xerneas, and is okay with Sand support, but I feel it's too lackluster.
    [​IMG] Hoopa-U -> B
    Basically the scarfer that's the best possible answer to Mewtwo, pressures Arceus-Ghost, and has Trick to not be useless vs defensive stuff. It's too slow to realistically run any other set, unless you perhaps bring webs suport.
    [​IMG] Metagross (Mega) -> C-
    Has very little over say Aegislash, it takes up your mega slot, and its speed tier is too low.
    [​IMG] Scizor (Regular) -> C
    Without Geoxern around, CB's spectacular Xerneas revenge-killing abilities are much less in demand, it's pretty big Ho-oh bait, and Pursuit/Superpower are about the only reasons it's not wholly outclassed by Genesect. The Mega has Defog to work with more reliably at least.
    [​IMG] Scizor ( Mega) -> C
    Huge Ho-oh bait, and its main use is as a defogger that's fine vs Lati@s and checks Xerneas (lses usefully so without Geomancy around) and most of its partners to help with Ho-oh also make good defoggers (and in fact may do very little else).
    [​IMG] Tyranitar (Regular) -> B-
    It's a Stealth Rock setter that's horrific versus both the Magic Bouncers and Groudon, so really it's only useful for checking Mewtwo (carrying a chople berry), pursuit trapping Lati@s (and its conflicting weather with the main abuser of such a thing, Kyogre, is unwanted), and checking Arceus-Ghost, Darkrai (though it won't absorb the sleep), Ho-oh (but loses n the long term) and Yveltal. Sort of a slow utility catch-all that's useless in a lot of matchups.
    [​IMG] Zekrom -> A
    Good scarfer (the best Darkrai answer around I guess in a certain sense) with a great offensive typing, and versatility. LO and Sub+Hone Claws are pretty effective. Is A a little too high?
    [​IMG] Heatran -> B+
    Sets rocks vs both bouncers, and checks Ho-oh moderately well, whilst switching into Lati@s and Xerneas happily enough. Can be worn down over time and fills a fairly small role a lot of the time, but it's pretty solid.
    [​IMG] Jirachi -> A-
    Faces competition with Genesect and Aegislash. As a scarfer, healing wish sets it out above Genesect, but it doesn't check ekiller really, and is a lot weaker. As a defensive backbone, Wish, Stealth Rock (albeit it can't get it up vs M-Sab), U-turn and TWave all make it stand out instead of Aegislash, which isntead boasts Shadow Ball, Shadow Sneak, and Pursuit, making it a better check to Mewtwo, and being able to trap and remove Lati@s.
    [​IMG] Ferrothorn -> B+
    It can Spike but not get past magic bouncers [sab anyway, Diancie's fine..], but it checks quite a lot of mons. Pretty mediocre in the sun matchup (statusing Ho-oh and checking Lati@s is about its list of roles), but can otherwise be a pest.
    [​IMG] Greninja -> C
    Struggles to get hazards up versus m-sab I believe? And that's about all it has going for it.
    [​IMG] Landorus-T -> A-
    Checks Groudon, gets rocks up vs magic bouncers, has U-turn, checks ekiller, also is an okay scarfer. Pairs well with Palkia ;]
    [​IMG]
    Not dealing with anything below B- Rank in this post as I have to go, but feel free to discuss them.

    Up for Discussion too, please please talk about them!
    [​IMG] Arceus-Rock - is it good enough for A? It answers a lot of the meta at least
    [​IMG] Rayquaza - is it a good enough stallbreaker? Do other Pokémon give it too much competition?
    [​IMG] Klefki - is it too easily worn down or lured?
    [​IMG] Arceus-Ground
    [​IMG] Deoxys-S

    And if you have any others you wish to bring up, please comment.
     
  19. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Announcement:
    The viability rankings will be locked by October 19th. The council vote upon those Pokémon in B rank will happen commencing the 26th of October, and a thread for discussing these Pokémon will be put up on October the 19th.

    I'll post a reminer on October 12th that the rankings will be locked on the 19th.

    Once the council vote has completed, and the changes have been made official (and thus 2U formed), the viability rankings will be unlocked.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
  20. 8-bit

    8-bit Member

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    Honestly I feel like Mega gyarados is better than C+ rank.
    Mold breaker is a highly underrated ability, and lets Gyarados not only Taunt against Mega Sableye, but ignore the effects of things such as Sturdy, Unaware, and Water Absorb.
    Gyarados also has more bulk than Mega sableye by a significant margin, as well as access to Dragon Dance and excellent dual STABs. Taunt/Waterfall/Crunch/DD provides perfect coverage vs. everything except like Whimsicott, and enough Attack to do some heavy damage without boosting. In addition, Intimidate in pre-mega provides even more physical damage mitigation, and the Flying/Dark type change creates mindgames with the opponent and stuff. Plus Mold Breaker ignores Multiscale too.

    I can edit more things in later, but Mega gyarados is a fantastic stallbreaker and despite its stabs being piss-weak, it can still do some solid damage as well as take a hit or two with its ridiculous bulk.

    Basically B- at least.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
  21. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    eh bugger it... its offensive typing is actually pretty good, sure why not.
     
  22. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Due to the absence of activity on this currently, I am voiding my previous statement; expect 2U to be formed at some point after pokebattle is re-released.
     
  23. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Added regular blaziken to C+.
     
  24. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Conversation with Illusions over Skype
    [20:35:16] Illusions: arc-ghost down to A+ imo
    [20:35:32] Illusions: mmy too probably
    [20:35:57] George S. [Disaster Area]: yeah I can't rly comment on the mewtwo's I'm so fucking bad at building with them
    [20:36:07] George S. [Disaster Area]: the one time I used CM LO Mewtwo I blitzed everything though
    [20:36:20] George S. [Disaster Area]: and arc ghost is pretty hard to answer/versatile is the logic behind it in S
    [20:36:27] George S. [Disaster Area]: I think it's on par with ogre
    [20:36:36] Illusions: yeah but it's ho-oh and y-god bait
    [20:36:38] George S. [Disaster Area]: SD hasn't got many answers, CM beats most of SD's answers and not much beats it
    [20:36:48] George S. [Disaster Area]: CM thunder and SD don't mind ho-oh so much
    [20:36:54] George S. [Disaster Area]: and ygod's not the worst mon in the world to be bait to
    [20:36:58] George S. [Disaster Area]: and CM Thunder's an awesome set
    [20:36:58] Illusions: I guess
    [20:37:03] George S. [Disaster Area]: for slaughtering both
    [20:37:16] George S. [Disaster Area]: and like your defog one or CM wisp one are rarer and not so good but definitely realistic options too
    [20:37:26] Illusions: ye ik
    [20:37:34] Illusions: arc-electric should probably get a boost
    [20:37:38] George S. [Disaster Area]: do u think?
    [20:37:41] George S. [Disaster Area]: it's kinda funky to build with
    [20:37:50] George S. [Disaster Area]: I did make a nice build with it but it has like terrak and mega metagross on fsr
    [20:37:59] George S. [Disaster Area]: like the only thing defensively it offers is
    [20:37:59] Illusions: lol
    [20:38:01] George S. [Disaster Area]: a good zekrom answer
    [20:38:03] George S. [Disaster Area]: and checks a few things
    [20:38:13] Illusions: realistically it's the best offensive cm forme
    [20:38:19] George S. [Disaster Area]: ogre (not switching in), ho-oh (but sf is a harder move to switch into than brave bird), ygod
    [20:38:25] George S. [Disaster Area]: yeah probably
    [20:38:29] George S. [Disaster Area]: it's tricky to answer
    [20:38:30] George S. [Disaster Area]: so yeah
    [20:38:44] Illusions: doesn't mind sab much either
    [20:38:47] George S. [Disaster Area]: yeah that's cool
    [20:38:54] Illusions: and only a few good mons check it
    [20:38:55 | Edited 20:38:58] George S. [Disaster Area]: it's a nice mon to bust through your typical sun
    [20:38:59] George S. [Disaster Area]: mm
    [20:38:59] Illusions: y
    [20:39:21] George S. [Disaster Area]: dialga's a good check esp. since toxic+lots of spdef is what I view as the standard lol
    [20:39:23] Illusions: I could see m-diancie going to A+ too
    [20:39:29] George S. [Disaster Area]: tho m-sab means more SpA investment sometimes
    [20:39:37] George S. [Disaster Area]: that's like the only thing to really
    [20:39:39] George S. [Disaster Area]: bone eleceus
    [20:39:40] Illusions: dialga's the best check imo
    [20:39:41] George S. [Disaster Area]: that's common tho
    [20:39:41] George S. [Disaster Area]: yeah
    [20:39:51] George S. [Disaster Area]: there's a few things that beat it better but you don't really see so often
    [20:40:07 | Edited 20:40:10] George S. [Disaster Area]: toxic wish clef but 4MSS of hell, gastrodon/quagsire
    [20:40:15] George S. [Disaster Area]: snatch bliss/chans
    [20:40:21] George S. [Disaster Area]: and toxic I guess too actually
    [20:40:22] George S. [Disaster Area]: ofc
    [20:40:23] George S. [Disaster Area]: yeah
    [20:40:31] George S. [Disaster Area]: but yeah the most common rly good check is
    [20:40:35] George S. [Disaster Area]: defo 100% dialga
    [20:40:48] Illusions: everything else is full stall
    [20:40:52] George S. [Disaster Area]: yeah lol
    [20:41:02] George S. [Disaster Area]: I'm the sorta person who if it was my main tier anyway would
    [20:41:05] George S. [Disaster Area]: build tons of weird full stalls
    [20:41:22] George S. [Disaster Area]: I tend to resort to more offensive stuff when I have multiple tiers or whatever to dedicate my time to
    [20:41:30] George S. [Disaster Area]: in XY Ubers I fucked around with so much stall it's unreal
    [20:41:37] George S. [Disaster Area]: I have made some nice quirky stalls in this tier but they're fewer
    [20:41:37] Illusions: the rankings seem solid outside of that tho
    In summary I'll move Arceus-Electric up to A-, but I hope he decides to comment on here too with respect to Mewtwo Y and maybe Mega Diancie or anything else he wants to comment on.
     
  25. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    [​IMG] Mewtwo (Mega Y) S -> A+
    LO Mewtwo is pretty much as good as mega mewtwo Y and I feel like it makes it a lot more usable in a lot of scenarios. I'm not actually so certain either should be S now. Offensively they're really awesome (but so's many other things like reshiram and m-luc lower down th ranks) and their high speed (above arc darkrai and skymin..) is really neat, but I'm not sure either's S worthy to be honest, mainly because they offer so little defensively. I think mega Y and regular at same rank tbh, since mega Y takes up a mega slot and it's reasonably likely that slot will be wanted.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Rock A -> A- It's really good still but it's not very easy to fit, I think A is overrating a one-dimensional mon that's not tooo hard to break and only answers a couple of key threats.
    [​IMG] Zekrom A -> A- It can be dangerous but it's pretty easy to prepare for and due to immunities can be pretty tricky to use a lot of the time.
    [​IMG] Deoxys-S A- -> A I think HO as a whole is actually pretty viable (I have a few variants around now) and I think A is fair for deo-S
    [​IMG] Dialga A- -> A possibly. discuss.
    [​IMG] Latios (Regular) - I rarely use this. Kind of feel like latias is plain better most of the time, should it move down any further or anything of the sort?
    [​IMG] Lugia - Could move down. It is great, but it's hard to build stall with it I find (trouble figuring out a good wincon, spikers aren't really reliable in stall v stall matchups - in fact with sab around they're really not very useful a lot of the time.. unless you want to go hard stall where you're willing to play rocks + PP stall strat...)
    [​IMG] Aegislash - B+ -> B- Its main niche is pursuit + checking xern, and it can secede momentum pretty easily to dangerous stuff like ho-oh. Jirachi does most stuff better (more movepool variety, better speed, etc. lets it run a couple of different sets, and stuff like healing wish and thunder wave is so much more generally useful)
    [​IMG] Arceus-Grass B+ -> A- kinda feel like something that's so good vs groudon and kyogre and zekrom and palk .... it just answers a lot and it a good fit on balance, and generally isn't too restricted on moveslots, so you can usually fit stone edge for ho-oh if you need it.
    [​IMG] Clefable B -> B- ok it gets rocks and a lot of other useful stuff but I feel it's just not quite bulky enough to really cover all you want from it. most sets want toxic+moonblast to do anything useful, and wish/moonlight for recovery, leaving you one slot for rocks/bell/protect.
    [​IMG] Excadrill B -> B- feel like it's kind of an awkward fit
    [​IMG] Klefki B -> B+ feel like it's actually a pretty good fit
    [​IMG] Gyarados (Mega) B- -> C too frail and the typing 50/50s aren't exactly something you want imo.
    [​IMG] Hoopa-U B- -> C it's only really a niche scarfer
    [​IMG] Sylveon B- -> B legitimately think this is a good pokemon. Specially bulkier than xern making it more defensively reliable, can wish pass, and has access to baton pass. Also hits really hard without investment meaning it can be super bulky whislst still really threatening arc dark. It's surprising the hits it can take some time.
    [​IMG] Victini B- -> C+ does anyone use this? could even go lower
    [​IMG] Hippowdon C+ -> C- can't get m-sab.
    [​IMG] Tentacruel C+ -> C doesn't deserve to be in the same tier as smeargle and mega maw. It's just too frail imo.
    [​IMG] Thundurus C+ -> C- feel like it's both very frail and somewhat niche.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Dragon C -> C- doesn't really do very much in this meta. Why would you run it? Should it even be ranked?
    [​IMG] Lopunny (Mega) - should it be ranked?
    [​IMG] Salamence (Regular) C -> C- I use it and it deserves to be ranked but it's very niche as a wisher/maybe defogger.
    [​IMG] Slowbro (Mega) thoughts?
    [​IMG] Umbreon C -> C- again viable and again a sort of an only me pokemon.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Fire - does it deserve to be ranked?
    [​IMG] Arceus-Flying - does it deserve to be ranked?
    [​IMG] Arceus-Psychic - does it deserve to be ranked?
    [​IMG] Blastoise (Mega) - removing it.
    [​IMG] Charizard (Mega X) - does it deserve to be ranked?
    [​IMG] Diancie (Regular) - does it deserve to be ranked?
    [​IMG] Forretress - should this be ranked?
    [​IMG] Garchomp (Regular) - C- -> C+, it's a very legitimate rocks user. Could even go higher.
    [​IMG] Kabutops - should this be ranked?
    [​IMG] Kingdra - should this be ranked?
    [​IMG] Omastar - should this be ranked?
    [​IMG] Reshiram - C- -> C+ I built with it and it's actually kinda cool. breaks stall. absorbs some wisps (e.g. m-sab). Checks CM Eleceus pretty well alongside groudon. Flame charge adds some speed. It's nice.
    [​IMG] Sceptile (Mega) - should this be ranked?
    [​IMG] Scolipede - should this be ranked?
    [​IMG] Tyranitar (Mega) - should this be ranked?

    EDIT: Reshiram could actually go B-, it's a decent stallbreaker with a couple of minor defensive niches, and rocks are easier to keep off than in XY with magic bouncers around. Sun's also fairly common in general.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2016
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  26. eden's embrace

    eden's embrace YOU ARE MY DESTINY Host Emeritus

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  27. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    nah stalltwo's kinda ass with mega sab around making it a poor stallbreaker. I don't think mewtwo X is any good really since it has less abilitiy to hit everything at once, and there's plenty of better ekiller checks out there.

    I mean, HO is good, but deo-s isn't exactly what makes it good nor is HO that impactful (at least compared to many other tiers).

    Not really a specsogre check...

    I mean you can use it outside of meye stall I just think it competes a lot with physdef ygod which is a lot more reliable and proactive than lugia, which only has the advantage of being a ho-oh/kyogre check (but not beating ghostceus ever). I could see it in B+ but I want other stall players/builders to comment.

    Well, it's pursuit but also anti-leading (with shadow sneak) or being a better ho-oh lure (with rock slide) that grant it some form of a niche (as well as being a better mewtwo check actually..) but it's a lot more one dimensional, and even stuff like mega metagross and scizor compete with it somewhat.

    I mean I run stone edge on this thing half the time... I mean it lets in quite a few other things too (like ray or kyurem-white for example, depending on your set) and it's not an amazing defogger (granted in some cases it has enough opportunities to come in, BUT it lacks any status immunities whatsoever so there's that) but it's still pretty good and covers a lot I feel without being too awful at seceding momentum.

    well i've not seen or tried sand whatsoever, but mold breaker I sorta tried. I feel like it's pretty ineffective even on paper though.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2016
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  28. Ed

    Ed Fizikaly defensive Rotom-Spin Member

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    I support most of these promotions, but I'd like to touch on some Pokemon:

    [​IMG] Sceptile (Mega) - This Pokemon should remain C- or unranked. It is incapable of breaking stall, doesn't pose a threat to offensive teams, and is not a good choice for a mega. If you're looking to use an offensive Grass type, you're better off using Shaymin-Sky, which abuses Serene Grace boosted moves and can Healing Wish to another teammate.

    [​IMG] Lopunny (Mega) - Mega Lopunny is at best scaring off opposing Darkrai, and I see nothing else noteworthy of this Pokemon. It can act as an anti-lead with Magic Coat, but it generally is unreliable. C- is the verdict.

    [​IMG] Forretress - I'd put this Pokemon at C for now. Custap Hazards is probably it's best set, but then you'd have to apply pressure correctly to keep them on the field.

    [​IMG] Scolipede - Definitely C+ or B-. Very good vs. Deoxys-S teams, but it is generally dead weight vs Mega Sableye teams.

    [​IMG] Slowbro (Mega) - Maybe C or C+. Physical bulk is great, but it is too slow, prone to status/getting Taunted, and is weak to special attackers.

    [​IMG] Diancie (Regular) - No rank. It doesn't specialize in performing any role as it is overshadowed by superior Pokemon. Diancie has solid 50/150/150 bulk, but it can't be put to use because of the omnipresence of Water and Ground type attacks, and it doesn't find many opportunities to come in.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2016
  29. ogasian

    ogasian Member

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    Darkrai probably merits a move up to S. Although many users have pointed out its lack of defensive utility, I think this is misguided. The ability to reliably take out one mon on the opposing team is inherently defensive, as it pretty much blanket checks anything slower than it, bar a few sleep talkers, with Ho-Oh being the most prominent. Even then, Ho-Oh should be hesitant to switch in, as Thunder is a pretty good coverage move, and taunt is underrated too. As for its offensive capabilities...I think they don't need any further explanation.
     
  30. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    It's bold but I think I agree.
    What about sab matchup?

    Btw going to now finalize these changes:
    [​IMG] A+
    [​IMG] S
    [​IMG] A-
    [​IMG] A
    [​IMG] B-
    [​IMG] A-
    [​IMG] B-
    [​IMG] C+
    [​IMG] B+
    [​IMG] C-
    [​IMG] C
    [​IMG] B
    [​IMG] C-
    [​IMG] Unranked
    [​IMG] C-
    [​IMG] Remains C
    [​IMG] C-
    [​IMG] Unranked
    [​IMG] Unranked
    [​IMG] C+
    [​IMG] Unranked
    [​IMG] Unranked
    [​IMG] Unranked
    [​IMG] B-
    [​IMG] Unranked
    [​IMG] C+

    Still looking for thoughts on:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2016
  31. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    I've been doing a lot of building lately so I have a lot to say!

    [​IMG] Diancie (Mega) | A -> A- | I think just due to its horrible stats distribution and such, in spite of its awesome typing and ability, I really don't feel any more like it's all that great a pick. Certainly, I think A is overrating it, classing it alongside titans of the tier such as Xerneas and Mega Blaziken. Could even see it moved to B+, but no lower.
    [​IMG] Dialga | A- -> A | It's one of the very best stealth rock users in the tier, with an useful typing. Offensive teams love its capabilities to answer CM Eleceus and Zekrom handily, and it fits on everything bar hard stall.
    [​IMG] Heatran | B+ -> B | I think whilst it's an awesomely reliable stealth rock user, it does little beyond that. To some degree it can stallbreaker with taunt and roar, and it beats non-CM+Focus Blast or LO xern... but that's not really much other than a Mono/Sub CMer.
    [​IMG] Kyurem-W | B- -> C | I feel like there's very little reason to run it. Whilst it has awesome power, so do a variety of other Pokémon that usually offer some greater form of niche defensively than it offers.
    [​IMG] Victini | B- -> Unranked | Not really viable
    [​IMG] Hippodown | C+ -> C- | Has a small niche on stall
    [​IMG] Hoopa-U | C+ -> C- | Barely viable but has some sort of a distincy niche as a scarf
    [​IMG] Tentacruel | C+ -> C- | Has minimal defensive utility and hazard control isn't in short supply. Competes heavily with arceus-poison for a teamslot.
    [​IMG] Whimsicott | C+ -> C | Whilst it does some distinct things, not answering yveltal in spite of being a fairy and having very limited offensive utility is kinda mediocre in this tier.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Dragon | C -> C- | I tested it a little, it's not good
    [​IMG] Cresselia | C -> C- | Barely viable
    [​IMG] Arceus-Fire | C- -> Unranked | Does it even have a niche?
    [​IMG] Arceus-Flying | C- -> Unranked | Has anyone tried the CM / Judgement / Recover / Earth Power or Refresh set? It sounds kinda nice but rocks weakness sucks and it offers no defensive utility really.
    [​IMG] Terrakion | C- -> B | It's a decent scarfer and usable stealth rock setter, particularly on webs.
     
  32. K Legacy

    K Legacy Worthlessly Awesome Member

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    What else I would Change:

    Mega Metagross -> C+
    It's just better then all the C's and C- mons, It's on par with all the C+ plus if not slightly better but it eats a mega slot and has no recovery.

    Mega Lucario -> B-
    It's good on webs but just has different typing then metagross outside webs teams.
     
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  33. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Hoopa-U should be C-, it's a super anti-mewtwo scarfer with trick which makes it slightly more handy versus stall. But yeah C- is enough for it.

    Mega Meta still competes with a ton of mons. Mega Luc as you say for an offensive steel, but aegi / ttar are just as good pursuiters for latias, and it's not as useful offensively, and it can't fit a rock move quite as easily as m-luc (kinda prefers tpunch to hit kyogre too..) and it doesn't really answer anything that aegi does, all it does is be less ho-oh bait and give fewer free turns. Mega Luc is a different beast, it's a dark resist with multiple priority options. Basically it acts as your wincon + darkrai answer and can fit on really offensive teams alongside stuff like ray and ekiller and check stuff with priority, but does face serious competition with mega blaze in that role. I've run SD and Agility (agility was kinda meh but still..) and it's a nasty mon to face with a lot of teams. Definitely needs mid B. I think meta for only C. Faces a lot of competition and takes up a mega slot and shit.
     
  34. eden's embrace

    eden's embrace YOU ARE MY DESTINY Host Emeritus

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    Proposing Lando-T to B+- Because it is a good rocks setter, but doesn't blanket check physical threats all that well to be honest. Its not an amazing ekiller,etc check and relies too heavily on intimidate.

    Klefki- A - Utility, stops all the deadly sweepers in the tier and can get rocks up vs either MDiancie Bounce or MEye bounce squads depending on coverage it chooses.

    Hippo -> C-, same problem as with Lando-T but even worse. Basically sucks too much momentum doesn't feel like it has niche>Groudon in any way excep possibly Slack Off.

    Gira-A - C- -> Checks things very loosely except for possibly Ekill, gigantic bait for Darkrai and GhostCeus, and again feels like an inferior Gira-0 for the most part
     
  35. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    [​IMG] Diancie (Mega) | A -> A-
    [​IMG] Dialga | A- -> A
    [​IMG] Heatran | B+ -> B-
    [​IMG] Kyurem-W | B- -> C
    [​IMG] Victini | B- -> Unranked
    [​IMG] Hippodown | C+ -> C
    [​IMG] Hoopa-U | C+ -> C-
    [​IMG] Tentacruel | C+ -> C-
    [​IMG] Whimsicott | C+ -> C
    [​IMG] Arceus-Dragon | C -> C-
    [​IMG] Cresselia | C -> C-
    [​IMG] Arceus-Fire | C- -> Unranked
    [​IMG] Arceus-Flying | No change
    [​IMG] Terrakion | C- -> B
    [​IMG] Mega Metagross | C- -> C

    Finalising these changes.
     
  36. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    I can see the draw to this comment, interested in other opinions
    I think on most teams it can't really be used as the emergency check one might like it to be. That being said in spite of its low stats it's surprisingly effective in general. I think A is overrating it a lot though and I'm not sure I would even stretch it to A- but if there's other corroborating opinions on it i might move it.

    Well it's a great blaze check and has sand and unlike lando-t has recovery but on the flipside can't really get rocks up vs m-sab. Only fits on very specific builds. I could see it to C- but k legacy disagrees, another opinion would be great.

    I think it's not thaaaat bad. Maybe down to C if you really wanted. It's not really ghostceus bait since SD is probably the best / most common set and that can't switch into it really. It also acts as a specsogre switch if you need it to which is nb. Also a very soft check to ho-oh.

    --

    Also, going to move garchomp to C-, it sort of has a niche but it's not very well defined.
     
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  37. Ed

    Ed Fizikaly defensive Rotom-Spin Member

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    Jirachi should drop from B+ to B. Yes, it is superb at hampering/checking offensive Psychic, Fairy, and Dragon (to an extent) Pokemon, but that is the only thing it's good at. Also, the other tanks in the tier outperform it (for example, Klefki can spread necessary status, effectively apply pressure, check Psychics/Fairies/Dragons, and Gliscor can use SR, spread status, and outstall opponents). Lastly, its lack of resistance to 4 of the 5 most common attacks in the tier (Ground, Fire, Dark, Water) means it can open up weaknesses in teambuilding.
     
  38. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Well it's probably the best xerneas answer (alongside Aegislash) and unlike Aegislash has U-turn and Thunder Wave and Wish that allow it to support the team. It can also run as a scarfer; whilst Genesect mostly outclasses, it does have Healing Wish. I sorta feel like that's enough for B+ but I see the arguement for B here.
     
  39. K Legacy

    K Legacy Worthlessly Awesome Member

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    Agree with Lando-T to B+, Klefki to A- is a debate we can have but solid A is too high. As for hippo how do you suck momentum on stall? Apparently chansey is a bad mon on stall now. It also has recovery and helps kill sun on sun teams. Gira-A is shit so do what you want with it.
     
  40. Ed

    Ed Fizikaly defensive Rotom-Spin Member

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    Yeah, I'm aware that it can function as a scarfer (something I should have also discussed in my post), but at the same time, it has glaring weaknesses that the opponent can take advantage of rather easily. I also forgot to mention that from all of the games I've watched the past month or two (PPL + MT2), Jirachi was not used as much compared to other Xerneas checks and Rank B+ Pokemon. If B+ is where you want to leave it at the moment, I won't contend with that stance, though I would like to bring up discussion on it again in the future.
     
  41. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Ok I think we can go Rachi to B Lando-T to B+ Keys to A-
    making these changes
     
  42. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Making a couple of minor changes
    [​IMG] A- -> B so frail and consequentially very difficult to use
    [​IMG] A -> A+ really great offensive pokemon
     
  43. SaDiSTiCNarwhal

    SaDiSTiCNarwhal Member

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    This tier doesn't have much activity, but I would like to argue for Mega-Gyarados to rise. With access to Mold Breaker and Taunt, it is a very effective stall breaker. It can set up on Sableye-Mega, isn't walled by Quagsire, and resists Dark-type attacks to an extent. Aside from Fairy-types --- by which I mean the 2 (3 if DA's Sylveon counts) --- Mega-Gyara can break most members of stall.

    Although, its daunting weaknesses such as its Fairy-type weakness, no realistic bulk due to lack of recovery options outside of rest (which effectively nulls its best role as a stall breaker), and low speed.
    [​IMG] C- -> C+
     
  44. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    It struggles with common Pokemon like Arceus-Grass and Ferrothorn, as well as Fairy-types, is Stealth Rock weak, offers very little defensive synergy, and isn't that bulky or powerful by the tier's standards. Not sure it should really move up.

    Appreciate the post tho. Let's play some here and there some time :)
     

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