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RBY OU / 1U (OverUsed) Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Disaster Area, Feb 18, 2015.

  1. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    I literally answered this before you even posted, so I'll just quote myself:
    "I just think it's absolutely ridiculous that, data on hand, backed up by multiple top players, you're seriously trying to claim that Golem and Rhydon are on the same level right now."

    You guys are terribly out of the loop if you think otherwise. People with more patience than me already did a pretty good job at explaining how Rhydon is massively superior and I find your entire argument so ridiculous that it's legitimately difficult for me to bother coming up with a reply. But I'll bring up one more thing that others haven't mentioned yet: Explosion comes at the cost of another one of your 4 moves, usually Substitute. Clicking Sub with Rhydon isn't a rare occurrence because it's not a bad move at all, and I'll leave it at that. If you want to scroll through 47 Rhydon replays and check how many used Substitute be my guest, I'm done with putting serious effort into trying to demonstrate the obvious
     
  2. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    Here's what you do (alphabetical within ranks):
    A+
    Alakazam
    Starmie
    A- (or to make it look better for people who don't want their mon called "-", call it just A if you want)
    Lapras
    Rhydon
    Zapdos
    B+
    Slowbro
    B-
    Golem
    Jolteon
    Jynx

    I always was in favour of Gengar to stay in B whenever it came up to drop to C but I guess it has just disappeard from high level play that much that I cannot hold B any longer.

    I don't want to reapeat arguments because others have brought them all.
    Still I want to point out that VR should reflect current trends (echoing TIN here), which is why Gengar should drop and (to Troller) Rhydon should be above Slowbro. [Wether or not you want Rhydon on the same rank as Lapras and Zapdos is a different story. I'd argue yes, cause those are the fillers we see realistically and relatively evenly distributed as well]
     
  3. P5726

    P5726 Member

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    Seems that Golem vs Rhydon debate is turning into something like Alakazam vs Starmie, where they are actually seen as "two" mons. I am guessing that "Goldon" as a term evolved around anti-electrics in which case the two are one and the same. Yet if they are being used increasingly with a focus on other roles such as late game sweep then their differences would show up more.

    Just a general question: should the VR reflect usage, utility or a combination of these? E.g. Slowbro's usage has plummeted but its win ratio is actually pretty high. Seems like it isn't becoming less effective at least not by much but just it's not popular - people shy away from it despite realising its potential. Slowbro should certainly drop if VR is usage focused but not so if it reflects utility.

    I also strongly believe Cloyster should go to B - fast heavy hitter and physical wall which can explode when it has no more use. Sounds a little like Egg... can also hax or escape with clamp when necessary.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
  4. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    somebody asked me to give my opinion, i've read p quickly the last arguments but here's my input:

    zapdos in a+ is fine since the main reason that you want to use rocks is so that people don't spam him at you

    but then why overcomplicated stuff with A+/A/A- ? two ranks are enough, i would do this:

    zam, starmie, zapdos in A+, lapras, slowbro, rhydon in A-. Troller talked about how he "rocks paper scissors" the teams he picked, and rhydon is the rock (lol) of the equation. When I have to pick my team b4 a game I consider rhydon as much as the other main fillers, it can be as threatening as the others, and yes it's a better pick than golem in the current meta and viability rankings should show that. btw i've never seen this choice as "which rock you want" since i believe they don't do the same thing. rhydon's basically some sort of a back up sweeper whereas golem is a bomb that can make a hole to gain a certain value you're seeking if you guessed early on that your opponent doesn't have a zapdos. it can be used as an insurance against snorlax since it can boom so it doesn't mind about paralysis too much

    if you try to use rhydon like golem, or golem like rhydon, it will fail terribly.

    now to people who want to drop slowbro or create a subrank just for him: you can either see it as zapdos food, or realize that tauros can 1v1 zapdos, or if you're next level see that all the reflect mons that were criticized for being op get destroyed by this guy (see my spl g2 vs tin where i went full retard on ice beam lax + rhydon and clicked x against slowbro after trying to luck with tauros). also i believe sing lapras to be the best all around filler in 2018

    last time we argued for changes i suggested cloyster to B and i still stand by it, i don't see how it's any worse than jynx, gengar, or jolt, and i reaaaaaally don't see how gengar is any worse than jynx who never does anything besides praying for a 6.25% freeze and then being unable to block sleep. gengar can't do that either but at least you can go for offensive strats thanks to its boom (gengar + sing chansey wins every sleep war, add sd amnesia lax, zapdos, and have fun oml)

    A+: Alakazam, Starmie, Zapdos
    A: Lapras, Rhydon, Slowbro
    B: Same + Cloyster

    Keep it simple

    Also D: Add Kangaskhan
     
  5. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    Funny thing: I was the one who coined the term "Goldon," yet here I am now some eight years later, talking about Rhydon's specific advantages over Golem.
     
  6. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Moderator

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    I feel like Rhydon is one of those things where it's such a fad right now people are overemphasizing its strengths without stepping back objectively enough. Rhydon is popular and it does better against Reflect Chansey etc right now, which is nice and feels huge. It does! I get it!

    I just think we're gonna end up looking dumb to others and feeling dumb ourselves later. We looked dumb when we moved Golem to 1U but Rhydon to 2U. We were mocked publicly for it and yeah, "other communities' opinions" shouldn't matter too much, but in retrospect I advocated for it and I think it was a mistake. It made us look silly and a target for trolling. I think right now Rhydon has a cult-of-personality where people are looking at it through rose-tinted glasses as it found some nice utility in today's metagame, which is fine, but when the novelty wears off we'll be back here and we'll say, "Yeah, we were really excited about Rhydon, but we oversold it."

    And I think that will be true even if nothing else in the metagame changes (hence the difference between popularity and viability).

    ETA: And again, to clarify my position: I am not saying Rhydon and Golem are 100% equivalent, I am not saying Golem is better. I am acknowledging that Rhydon is more useful than Golem right now but I don't think it deserves a whole letter grade higher.

    That said, I was just trying to be a "cooler head" trying to step back from the hype and then I ended up getting worked up myself so that didn't go as planned haha ... although that seems to always be the case when I talk Pokemon :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
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  7. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I'm just telling you about my experience and my opinion. I know that the metagame I experience is very different from what people experience overall:
    I just wanted to make the case why I personally feel that Rhydon and Golem are on about the same level right now.

    It's not obvious to me why Rhydon would be superior to Golem right now, and I think putting in the effort is worth it. marcoasd made a great post discussing the point. I just would appreciate seeing arguments beyond the usage stats. I'm open to persuasion.

    Anyway, it seems to me from seeing the variety of expert opinions in this thread that moving Rhydon up to A- for now would be a well-received change, so I shall make that move.

    [​IMG] B -> A-
     
  8. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    Lapras should go to A (new middle zone), i'm a bit too tired to make a long post right now, but Lapras should be ahead of Rhydon no matter what for multiple reasons. If you really need arguments i can make those, but this seems so much clear to me, let's hope you don't.

    And please let Slowbro stay A- where he belongs, people said this is a viability ranking thread not usage, let it stay as such.
     
  9. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I would appreciate some arguments. I've been kinda down on Lapras the past few months honestly but some people seem to think it's excellent atm. If people want me to move Lapras into A rank on it's own, I can do that.
     
  10. P5726

    P5726 Member

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    Does the order within a rank have meaning? If so then there's no reason to create another tier which only adds to the confusion.
     
  11. Sevi 7

    Sevi 7 Member

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    Any thoughts on this, because it should definitely be worthy of discussion if Sandslash is also being discussed?

    It's in alphabetical order.
     
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  12. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Indeed it's worthy of discussion. I don't really see the appeal of using Kang tho but if Peasounay u want to advocate for it I'm open to hearing the argument
     
  13. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    Wait a second, why do i have to make super arguments to defend Lapras when all you did was "Lapras is overrated, to me." "Yes me too", let's start with your thoughts on why (s)he's overrated otherwise it should not be touched at all
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
  14. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I'm going to echo Golden Gyarados and say that Don is more of a B+ than a A-. Don's strengths and why they're important have been repeated ad nauseam in this thread, but it seems as if people are completely disregarding the fact that Golem has freaking Explosion. Do I really need to point out that that's one of the best tools in the game? Sure, Don is better, fair enough, but when people are seriously making the point that having to run Explosion means dropping Substitute of all moves, you know things are askew.

    I also oppose bumping Lapras into its own rank in A, as it gets shut down way too hard by Chansey, while it's not as though its 5th slot matchups are all that great either, since everything in A+ beats it handily. I also feel the same way as Golden Gyarados here in that Lap has a lot going for it, but as soon as my opponent brings one out I feel a lot more comfortable.

    Cloy to B is interesting and idk how I feel about it. I guess I support it? Cloy's a huge threat, but I haven't used it myself recently, which I think makes me prone to overrating it, since using a threat yourself is probably the best way to expose its flaws

    I still support Gengar to C. Since Peasounay compared it to Jynx I'll run with that- there is nothing consistent about Gengar. It may have more merit outside the lead position than inside it at this point (GGFan's post earlier was solid and it's just such a terrible lead), which really says a lot since even in a non-lead position it's incredibly niche. Jynx at least has a decently consistent sleep, while if you refrain from expending half of its bulk fishing for a hail-mary freeze it can still block sleep. It's kinda shitty and I agree that it doesn't really do much, but it still does the things you generally want from a lead, which is more than Gengar can say.

    Also smh all these people sleeping on Golem and Jolteon, sure they face superior competition, but they're good pokemon in their own right and significantly better than Jynx/Gar imo

    I support Khan to D, but this is based on theory. My reasoning behind Khan is that it does just about everything Tauros does (just a bit worse obviously) while Counter gives it an edge over Tauros, which is the most important criterion for a sweeper in rby. Some day I'll actually use Khan and put my talk to the test, but not right now
     
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  15. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    Why is that, exactly? It's not like Golem just has 5 moves, if we're discussing all the little things they have over each other you should definitely mention that Rhydon can Sub to fish game-winning full paras while Golem can't (unless he drops body slam). It's probably more relevant than Golem having the speed advantage in a mirror yet you seem to have no issue with that being mentioned; I don't see why brining up the complete list of details and differences between the two is a bad thing, and I don't know how it means that 'things are askew'.

    Things are askew when people are arguing for Golem to be in the same tier as a mon with 12 times as much usage in top level play. You cannot ignore such a massive discrepancy.
     
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  16. P5726

    P5726 Member

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    I tried to argue the point that explosion's value lies in that it's a chance to take out any mon of your choice at a time of your choice. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-option-value-of-self-ko.3624146/ In any particular game we have no idea how threats will develop and so having a mon which can explode is like an insurance policy. And this is the main strength of Golem over Rhydon (I have no opinion however on their overall relative strength). Also worth nothing that Golem can take out Starmie on full health by exploding.

    I've used Cloyster on almost every team, and not just for wrap teams, motivated in large part by the ability to explode. It's only weakness really is Starmie and Gengar (not even Lapras). Simply put I've tried for fun just blowing up Cloyster the first chance I get (which is of course not optimal play) - if you manage to hit any of the big fours, Zam, Jynx and maybe even Zapdos then you're in the money as Tauros can revenge kill whatever survives. That's the least Cloyster can do. If the opponent doesn't have Mie or Gar, the most common switch in to Cloyster are Zam and Chansey. If you explode on these two then it's a steal.

    Cloyster --> B
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
  17. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    Imagine making a super argued post about why the wallbreaking utility of Rhydon largely surpasses the defensiveness of Golem and deserves a different rank and even explaining why you are not too hot on Explosion ON GOLEM because without the wallbreaking factors Golem does not do ANYTHING ELSE THAN LITERALLY BOOMING ON X TARGET AND SUCKS, then imagine Orth just coming to remind us again that Golem has Explosion. Without counter-arguing anything of what has been said on the important topic of wallbreaker vs defensive boomer, and call us fouls for having this different but shared among almost everyone (hello usage stats, nice to meet you) opinion.

    -This is a secret, we do know Golem gets boom-

    And yes SUB on Rhydon is a crucial factor of his utility and win games, i don't know why you want to act like he doesn't but dropping Sub is just another big loss of Golem and should be mentioned.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
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  18. P5726

    P5726 Member

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    Imagine if Rhydon can learn Explosion (in which case the Golem vs Rhydon debate would end instantaneously), would you or others have him learn Explosion instead of Sub? Or say instead of Bslam/Rslide? That's the real test of whether Sub Rhydon is "crucial" or just being forced to use a second-class move because it doesn't get Explosion. Granted that "second class" move could still be amazing on Rhydon.

    Even just Exploding isn't that bad (please note the emphasis). All depends on what you hit. Exeggutor and Starmie are the most common switch-ins to Golem, which means one has a good shot at catching these with the bomb. Not a bad tradeoff depending on how much health they were on (especially Starmie as it can't be revenged kill by Tauros).

    Golem is just something easier to use and at least with Explosion it can't be that bad even if things go wrong, why for Rhydon if things don't go according to plan it becomes a lame duck.

    But I guess Rhydon has the greater potential. I have never used it since I don't think I have the skill and experience to use it well. And substitute is a tricky move requiring some mastery. I'm guessing that's why top players prefer Rhydon because of the greater potential. Golem however is safer.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
  19. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    Yes, Substitute is still a useful move. Not "amazing", and no one has ever claimed it's better than Explosion, but it's useful, and to run Explosion you do have to sacrifice a moveslot - it's completely worth it, obviously, but it's still not just something that Golem has on top, it's a tradeoff.
     
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  20. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I think Orth makes some good points: it does match up pretty poorly vs the A+ mons which u see a ton, and Chansey can stop it pretty hard.

    On the other hand, of course, it's probably the most reliable non-lead sleeper u can pair with Exeggutor, which is a decently important niche. And its stats are all round pretty good.

    I think the thing with Lapras is that in a game there's a quite fine line between: this mon does not scare me at all and, holy sh*t I'm about to lose this thing. It's excellent when Chansey is low or out of the picture.

    Hmm, I guess in terms of how well it ifts in the metagame right now, I guess it has to do with stuff like
    - how common Reflect Lax is. Lapras pressures Reflect Lax decently well (and unlike Starmie doesn't sacrifice BoltBlizz's coverage to do so) and since Reflect Lax is very common nowadays that's definitely something in Lapras' favour.
    - I think less important is stuff like how common specific 4ths are, Lapras's matchup against the 4ths is not as dramatic as it is for Electrics or Rocks. What I think is more relevant is stuff like: how much para spread there is for it usually, what state is Chansey in when it would come into play, and, for sing variants, I guess there's also questions about common leads, sleep strategies, and so on, to get an understanding of how best to use Sing.

    I think the Crystal_ discoveries overall hurt it, but I can see why it might work better now than it did a year or two ago.

    I also think it's a Pokemon that's an A rank in the hands of experts but a B rank in the hands of the average player, if that makes sense?

    I guess this amounts to more opinions rather than any sort of argument... I'm not sure what I'd even be trying to argue. Right now I think I'm fine with it being in the rank that it is.

    ---

    Regarding Rhydon vs Golem, it's pretty clear that the tradeoff is choosing between a Pokemon that can more effectively wallbreak, or sweep when stuff is paralyzed, or chip at stuff, and functions better in a fast paced endgame with unparalyzed tauros roaming around, versus a Pokemon that is much less effective in those positions, but can still check zapdos and lax reasonably well, and has Explosion which is more useful when Amnesia abusers are more common.

    Rhydon has a lot of upsides compared to Golem, and I think that if people are getting more use out of Rhydon because of those upsides, and find those upsides more relevant in practice, then it makes sense to rank Rhydon over Golem right now. Now, I personally don't find the upsides of Rhydon enough in my experience in the metagame to want to rank it over Golem, but I understand the argument being made and it's a perfectly fine one.
     
  21. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    I think something that is important to state and hasn't been made clear and explicit yet is that Rhydon is a mon that makes progress pretty much every time it hits the field. Mons with recovery moves pretty much all take >50% from Earthquake (or >33% if we're talking Rest users), while everything else is forced to take permanent damage. Every time you get Rhydon in a position to attack, you get some very concrete reward for it. This is really not the case with Golem, because of calcs such as these:

    Rhydon Earthquake vs. Starmie: 143-169 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 17.7% chance to 2HKO
    Golem Earthquake vs. Starmie: 128-151 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Rhydon Earthquake vs. Chansey: 354-417 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Golem Earthquake vs. Chansey: 314-370 (44.6 - 52.6%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO

    Having Starmie and Chansey (if unparalyzed) being able to switch into you and leave you with no progress made whatsoever is very, very bad, considering Golem is not an easy mon to send in in the first place (and especially bad when you consider one of the ways to get him on the field easily is on a predicted TWave from one of these two). And naturally, even if these two are out of the way and you get to make progress with your Golem, its lower damage output still means that you have to sweat a lot more to take down targets such as Exeggutor.

    This was kind of explained when Peasounay said that if you try to play Golem like Rhydon you will fail terribly, but it's better to say it clearly and properly like this so that people understand: Rhydon and Golem are not in direct competition. They don't do the same thing, they don't function the same way in game, and therefore they don't even share the same match ups too closely. Sure, they're both favored vs Zapdos, but Rhydon punishes you with permanent damage or a kill every time Zap hits the field, Golem just kinda... clicks Rock Slide and switches out as they easily heal it back up. Rhydon's match up on Zapdos is much more overwhelmingly favored. And the tradeoff just isn't worth it, Golem doesn't really gain that much advantage anywhere else - sure, boom is nice, but it's not like booming Chansey or Starmie or Eggy gives you an overwhelming match up advantage on anything in particular.

    Does Golem have its place in niche teams that are built to abuse the Explosion specifically? Yes.
    Does Golem offer direct competition for Rhydon's role of massively dangerous breaker? No, not at all.
    Therefore, it's not logical to rank them together because "they do similar things, even if one is more used at the moment". They really, really don't.
     
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  22. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I mean, you can use Golem not exactly as a breaker but depending on what is around it can chip stuff or try and land status with Body Slam. The extra damage is nice and is significant, but at the same time I think the differences are being overplayed.

    In some ways Golem/Rhydon are in direct competition and I think it's silly not to say otherwise. But there are material trade-offs that make Rhydon far better at causing more sustained damage, whereas Golem is more all-or-nothing. It's a case of, how do you want to break open your opponents team? By powerful wallbreaking or exploding? They share a defensive niche, but the way that they operate offensively is quite different. Golem is a cut-price Rhydon that can explode.

    --

    Regarding starmie switching into rocks, I will concede that rhydon is better there, but I don't think it's a big deal. Vs chansey I think it's even less of a big deal. Firstly, Chansey is an easy mon to chip down to 80 or 90%. Secondly, it's a pretty poor switch-in to Golem anyway. If Chansey wins the MU vs Golem it either crits/freezes ice beam (which it can do vs rhydon anyway) or it survives at 10% at best, which u can pick off with virtually anything.

    To me, these are the main relevant upsides to Rhydon:
    - Higher % to KO Tauros after 2 Tauros Bslams
    - Starmie has a harder time managing it
    - 101+HP Subs vs Raish Chansey
    - Bit stronger

    Downside:
    - No explosion.

    Rhydon is a dangerous breaker, Golem is a not as dangerous by quite a way breaker that can also kaboom. Rhydon has a ton of mostly subtle advantages over Golem. Golem has one advantage over Rhydon which is as subtle as a car crash. I kinda get the sense that there's a bit of a "the whole is more than the sum of its parts" going on with Rhydon because u have to look at like 15 different scenarios to understand why people prefer it.

    Golem makes progress when it hits the field too, unless there's a Starmie around, maybe (u can bslam para it tho...). Just it makes a bit less progress cos it's a bit weaker.

    I think that Rhydon is a bit better than Golem because if you look at their comparative matchup vs each Pokemon on the upper part of the VR, Rhydon's matchup is slightly better, and versus a couple of pokemon (starmie, tauros, some variants of chansey) Rhydon is materially better, whereas there's like 1 variant of 1 pokemon where Golem is significantly better (AmneLax, to a lesser extent maybe 4 atk lax). I don't think it's any one of those things that makes Rhydon better than Golem overall, it's the sum total of all of those different little advantages that push it over the edge.
     
  23. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    The Idiot Ninja your earlier post implied that running Sub was an advantage relative to Gol, which would suggest that Don's 101+HP Subs were better than Explosion, which I think everyone agrees is not the case- if Don could run Explosion it would drop Sub in a heartbeat. So listing it as an advantage doesn't make sense. It could be used in an argument that it diminishes the advantage of Golem's Explosion, but it's still overall an inferior option and thus cannot generate a net advantage, which again, was what your post was implying.

    Also in your most recent post I feel like it's worth pointing out that your damage ranges that show Gol failing to make progress where Don can are inconsistent. Gol vs Chansey and Don vs Starmie have nearly the exact same damage range, yet are used to argue opposite points- it can't go both ways. Personally I'd buy the argument that Chansey negates Gol, since I'm sure we've all used Chansey in that manner at some point, and that in turn means that I don't accept the argument that Don consistently earns permanent progress against opposing Starmie. Don needs considerable luck to prevent opposing Starmie from simply spamming Recover to erase its damage, or it predicts that and tries a Body Slam, which might work but is not reliable, and if it fails it can no longer remain in play as Star is left in a position where it can afford to attack.

    Was that the post where you argued that because opponents hide their electrics until late you can't afford to boom until lategame? Because that's a pretty weak argument imo, since Electrics (I'll just assume we're referring to Zap here) are good but they're not that good. You don't need a Ground type to handle them, otherwise the meta would be very different to what it is now- all of the big three are capable of limiting Zapdos to some extent, the A+ mons either outspeed it and para/attack it or they are Zap and therefore it's a trade.

    As for me ignoring arguments, what arguments have been made besides "better matchup against Bro/Lax/Chans, also 90% Egg" (even against Bro it's questionable as Golem's Explosion gives you a lot of leeway to take risks in handling it) and "all the good players are using it and it's not going terribly"? In the case of the latter, that doesn't describe any properties of Don that make it good, just that it is going pretty well atm, and in the case of the former you may notice that I'm no longer arguing for Don to C and am instead admitting that it's better than everything else in B?

    Also Golem's Explosion is not merely a defensive tool lol. Furthermore, if Sub's such a huge loss for Golem, would you rather run Sub over Explosion if Don hypothetically learned it?

    Lastly, your post greatly exaggerates Golem's offensive shortcomings. It is not capable of "literally nothing besides booming", it is still a decent attacker in its own right. I'm not going to pretend it's as good as Don, I'm merely pointing out that saying it's capable of nothing is ridiculous.
     
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  24. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    That was something said 3-4 pages ago, you are definitively ignoring/not understanding otherwise i really don't understand how can you dig up that part from the past.

    Let's try again, part by part.

    1- "Grounds are not needed", they are, otherwise i don't see how they, no just Rhydon still got usage. He's a great hitter but the Zapdos mu is his bigger reason of being, i'm sure, if you ban Zapdos Rhydon falls. Given that keeping alive the good mu is important, not crucial but has to be mentioned has another argument over Golem, that was not my only or neither main argument btw.

    2- The argument has been the importance of wallbreaking vs defensiveness, which is enormous. Rhydon and Golem are similar in cartridge, but this is Rby OU and the differences of the two roles are big, i have been stating how important the wallbreaking factor is over what Golem does. This the heart of the discussion, on Rby OU they are polar opposites, Golem takes hits and boom like Cloyster, and Rhydon is like FishLax, two opposite styles. And you have clearly ignored this part because you haven't counter argued anything, tell me why Golem is as important and don't state the obvious "Golem has a 340 bp damage move".

    "and in the case of the former you may notice that I'm no longer arguing for Don to C and am instead admitting that it's better than everything else in B?"

    And i am for A- so what? My points are to defend the current position while you want the B+.

    3- No i would drop Body Slam, but the argument is so flawed, "if you had a better a move you'd not run Sub", again so what? Sub on Rhydon is an extremely important move over Golem (thanks to the 413 hp and the wallbreaking factors, i know Golem gets Sub too) and it has to be mentioned as another of the advantages over Golem, just that. Explosion is better than Sub but Sub is a very good tool on Rhydon and Golem can't use it the same way. When you drop Body Slam for Explosion you are indeed improving the pokémon, but you are also missing the move niche advantages of Body Slam as you don't have 5 slots and it as to be said, you don't break Starmie last anymore (but trade at best) without Body Slam even if you get 10 advantages from boom you are giving up that one specifc one. Example: Dodrio lacks EQ over Tauros and gets hard walled by Rhydon but he got DPeck STAB to play a better 1v1 vs Exeggutor, even if EQ would be better OVERALL DPeck has an advantage over EQ and you can't just blind yourself about it, same there.

    4- Name me one matchup of pokémon (but elec or Zam lead) vs Golem and i probably would stay in even if par to do 40-60% with Psychic/EQ/Blizz/Beam. And also making your boom much predictable, this is why Golem "can't do anything" to me, he has 110 attack yes, but he falls flat when it comes to use it as he gets back fired super hard. Doing the same on Rhydon would be a lot more risky (i'd even say you can't or you put yourself behind) especially for Par Chansey/Snorlax.

    My feeling is that you are couting as Rhydon had 150 atk and Golem 130, in that case the difference would be small and a matter of Sub vs Explosion as you picture, because both would be wallbreakers. Rhydon is not only "better" but largely superior in his different role (as i'd call Chansey>Articuno, to be clear, different roles and Chansey is a better staller than Articuno sweeper) than Golem in his role.

    Hope this time i have been clear at least on what i mean.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
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  25. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    I don't want to get into it here. Things have been said. I don't want to defend Golem over Rhydon (in fact I have always prefered Rhydon).
    But I felt like bringing up an advantage from Golem that no one has mentioned before. Please don't take this as a major point in Golem's favour, it's merely meant to establish completeness, nothing more and it should not be taken into consideration for the ranking of the two, since it's still niche, but imo important enough to deserve mention.
    First of all, I know that Rhydon gets it too but I think it does not make as good of a use of it as Golem does. I am talking about Fire Blast. Golem's Fire Blast is considerably stronger than Rhydon's as it does almost the same amount of damage to Eggy as Rhydon's Rock Slide. I know clicking Fire Blast has downsides but really... who switches Starmie or Chansey into Golem instead of Eggy (at least the first time around)? Just for the record, I'd take a burned opposing Eggy over a paralyzed one any day of the week.
     
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  26. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    ...are you fucking serious right now. jesus christ. no, my earlier post did not imply that at all. my earlier post simply stated that Golem does not have Explosion as magical 5th move, and that running it meant you aren't able to run a Substitute, which is a helpful move to have in its own right. I never even dreamed of claiming substitute is stronger than explosion. You're making counterarguments to arguments that I never made.
    Replying on the Don making no progress vs Starmie thing: yes, sure, fair, as long as Starmie is not paralyzed Don doesn't get to make progress. But that's exactly the damn point, Starmie as a lead is always paralyzed and Starmie in the back you can paralyze with Body Slam (especially on recover attempts). Chansey by contrast is much easier to keep unparalyzed with careful play and cannot be paralyzed with bslam. You also conveniently ignore the part where I explain that even when these two roadblocks are paralyzed and cleared out for the rock type, Rhydon does more progress than Golem on literally every possible switch-in, and you conveniently ignored the rest of the post because you couldn't find a way to misinterpret what I say and somehow portray it as faulty.
     
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  27. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Anyway I'm temporarily locking this thread, this discussion has turned sour in a major way

    Check back in a couple days
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  28. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Gonna unlock now.

    I'll say that the reason I read the stuff on Sub in that way is that as I see it, the differences between Golem and Rhydon were being exaggerated and I would say that that influenced the way I read that post

    TIN, I think my response to that post that you felt was only picking on things I could disagree with was only really intended to be a quick observation, rather than a thorough response to your whole post. Perhaps I should've just pointed out the inconsistency and left it at that lol. It's still an interesting call to make, because I do tend to only respond to stuff that I disagree with, and the stuff that's either a good point or not particularly relevant I don't say much on. I'll keep this tendency in mind from now on
     
  29. Nails

    Nails Member

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    golem sucks because you put the rock on the team to beat the zap but you want to wallbreak with your boom relatively early to give yourself time to capitalize on the broken wall, and you don't get to accomplish both goals in the same game with your golem.

    rhydon is amazing because it 2hkoes paraed chansey with eq so you force damage somewhere onto their team; snorlax can't switch in, eggy can't heal, every flying mon loses to it anyway/you can call it with either of your other attacks anyways, bull takes a million. the matchup vs reflect chansey is whatever, i'd much rather face a boltbeam twave chansey with my rhydon than reflect stoss because paraed reflect chans's odds of 1v1ing are way better, and you can opt out of the fight after you, say, broke one sub and healed. sub sorta really sucks on don. not that anything else is better of course.

    i'd also rather have my rock check slowbro by 3hkoing it instead of "hope they don't switch out of my boom xd" both since golem gets outplayed soooo easily and having an alive rock after checking slowbro > having a dead rock after checking slowbro.

    Rhydon Earthquake vs. Slowbro: 122-144 (31 - 36.6%) -- 69.4% chance to 3HKO
    Golem Earthquake vs. Slowbro: 109-129 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    Rhydon Earthquake vs. Chansey: 354-417 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Golem Earthquake vs. Chansey: 314-370 (44.6 - 52.6%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO

    like honestly i think golem is c rank it's so outclassed by don that i'd rather use.. probably dnite and vic and maybe not articuno, honestly not sure on where i'd draw the line. but he's c rank material for sure. every mon in b tier is better than golem.

    other than rhydon vs golem, a new tier called S- should be made for eggy. i disagree with a few other things but nothing major.

    as for the suggested changes, the change from d to e is the line of "i'm actually mad if i lose to this" for e rank mons. sandslash and pinsir absolutely fit into that tier, while none of the d rank mons do imo. gengar has a valid niche; how often he gets brought is dependent on who you're facing but he's not even close to outclassed given the right conditions; nothing is comparable to gengar and he's worthy of building teams to fit his kit. that's easily b rank.

    final note: suggesting that you should look at replays to see if golem would've been better than rhydon is inane; the teams were constructed in a way and the games were played in a way to capitalize on the strengths of the rhydon in the back. you don't put yourself in a situation to be able to say "ha i'd have won if i had a different mon, bg" unless you desperately want to get benched. if you have rhydon, you don't consider where the boom would optimally go if you had it, and if you had golem you don't plan out situations where you're gonna be 10% short of a ko.
     
  30. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Mmmm... you aren't wallbreaking with either of them (are you talking about Rock Sliding Exeggutor?) - the difference in damage output is relevant for sure, but both of them don't want to come out early unless there is a chance to do it for free (SToss Chansey, Zapdos or fishing for a crit on Snorlax's Rest in Rhydon's case, back to your own Normal-type in case you don't get it).
    Crippling Exeggutor (paralysing it at least) is part of the setup.
    Golem's Explosion was useful when switching into Chansey was harder and switching into Snorlax's Body Slam was a common play, nowdays everybody is obviously using teams with Reflect users.

    Rhydon really wants to face a Reflect Chansey because 1- BeamBolt can use Ice Beam (putting Rhydon in Tauros' range, and many more) and switch 2- I guess you are assuming a scenario where you're sending Rhydon when Reflect is up already or Chansey's unstatused; para'd Reflect Chansey (which should be the standard for a Rhydon team) lets you in easily and is basically forced to switch.

    I'm not sure about Gengar being B: having a 6th pokemon that helps against Snorlax and Tauros (or at least Zapdos) is key. Moving it to C would be pretty hasty though.

    The other points make perfect sense, and many of them are kinda new.
     
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  31. EB0LA

    EB0LA TOUR BANNED Member

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    Kangaskan E -> D.

    I've seen it do work. Comparable to Persian, might even be better then it.

    #minitauros
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  32. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Do others support Kang to D? EB0LA and Peas have posted in support of it. I'm personally against it, I would rather use sandslash or pinsir which I think are questionable about putting into D as it is. Also, I'm against putting Golem to C: I get that there are people who think it is that bad, but I think all of the Pokemon in B are mons that have significant flaws that make them unpopular on the whole but they still fulfill valid and important niches that a lot of players still make good use of. I still really like Golem (honestly I like all of the B mons, and C mons except Cloyster is not really my style) and I really think that the difference between it and Rhydon is not so drastic that they should be more than a rank apart.
     
  33. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    F Rank
    These Pokemon have flaws too crippling to ever be serious contenders in the tier, and tend to suffer from being largely but not totally outclassed. They are considered gimmicks.

    Golem is largely outclassed by Rhydon at this moment; it's far from being a gimmick and its flaws aren't that crippling - it matches one of the criterias for F rank nonetheless.

    Kangaskhan is clearly better than the other D, and it's almost as good as Persian: Kangaskhan is better at sweeping over slow stuff and can get the Body Slam RNG (paralysis + CHs) when hit and running, Persian cleans outspeeding the likes of Zapdos and Tauros - which is often more useful.
    If anything, D is a bit generous for Hypno and Kingler, but I think this has been discussed already resulting in "we're not splitting the D rank".
    I'm not a fan of Pinsir/Sandslash/Kingler when Victreebel is better than them for SD purposes.
     
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  34. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    Against Kangaskhan, it used to be cool when no one knew of Counter, currently it just sucks (no surprise effect). Persian is way better at revenge killing at least. I'd rather risk Dodrio vs Rhydon than running Kangaskhan.
     
  35. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    My experience with Hypno is that it's usable, but it's really trash so I would support this. I've used it exclusively as a lead, where it faces enormous issues- it's slower than GarJynx and so loses to them most of the time (though it's fucking excellent at punishing Gar Hypnomisses), while against para leads it also faces a horrific matchup due to the immense unreliability of Hypnosis once paralysed. Once you've put the opposing lead to sleep, what then? Paralysed Hypno just isn't threatening enough, so although your opponent can switch to something passive, they also have the option of staying in and burning sleep turns or switching out to Lax and going on the offensive. This forces you to pick a move blindly and hope you guessed correctly as to what the opponent will do. Furthermore, Hypno's just not that great at blocking sleep imo, since half of its bulk is often expended getting its own sleep off, or eating an attack from Lax, while SToss just doesn't KO fast enough for a weakened Hypno to be that great at blocking sleep. Also it's not bulky enough to avoid getting abused by Lax, so there's that.

    This is all based on my experience with it as a lead, you could run it outside the lead position, the question I'd ask is: why? I don't see any reason for it. Also one thing is that I've always left Hypno in to get sleep. Maybe simply taking para and immediately switching out would work, but then Hypno's not really accomplishing much and there doesn't seem much point to that either.

    Also support the proposal from Nails to separate Egg from the rest of S. Egg's still S because sleep, but otherwise it doesn't come close to dominating the game to the extent the three normals do. Really the only quibble I have with that is that I don't like subranks in RBY, but the difference between Egg and the three Normals is that stark that it's appropriate.

    Although this hasn't stopped me in the past, I'm going to refrain from commenting on Khan/SDers because it's been so long since I used/encountered them. I will say that I'm mildly surprised that people didn't expect Counter on Khan, like that's its main selling point lol
     
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  36. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I feel like the main upside for Hypno is that it is alright at landing paralysis straight after sleep as a lead, plus it outspeeds egg and can hurt zam/starmie enough to stay in and try and do stuff.

    That being said, it's not terribly good at that (but a little better than egg at it). It's not a very important niche and it's not very good at it. I could see moving it down to E, tbh. Like, it can kinda do some stuff, and it's not technically outclassed, but it's not going to ever really impress you when you use it, and often it will disappoint.
     
  37. Nails

    Nails Member

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    yea i can see in a world where switching your normal resist into a body slam is a fair play golem's boom makes it way better since it retains use while paraed. that is not this world, if you switch your rock into body slam you're pretty much throwing.

    as for the wallbreaking thing, yeah body slamming an eggy is quite nice, but there's also the fact that eqing the egg feels way less bad with rhydon than golem. but i don't consider eggy a wall anyways, it's a sponge, just like bull, zap, non rest lapras, etc and it falls over after taking enough hits. wallbreaking refers to the fact that golem can't break chansey without boom and chansey can't ever switch in on full hp don eq unless it's reflect, not paraed, and fine with gambling on a lot of crits.

    as for gengar he's only viable as a lead, his kit is super outclassed outside of that role.
     
  38. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    Hypno
    - Thunder Wave
    - Hypnosis
    - Reflect
    - Rest

    i don't really have time to make a real proper RMT with the full build nor do I have time to explain this set in depth, but I've been having success with this in MT games and while the consistency is a bit lacking for me to bring this to big important tour games this is still a very viable team that has taken games off of competent players; the general idea is that with this set Hypno can Rest and wake up healthy enough no matter what your opponent does, and then you can fodder it to sleep powders after having slept something and twaved something else. Eggy doesn't have enough to break through this so if you have an unparalyzed hypno even at 50%~ it's guaranteed to get in a position to threaten twaves or just accept getting slept, which is the goal of running this hypno to begin with. I know it looks weird but it's definitely been good enough for a D-rank in my experience, wish I had saved more replays but I have a couple which showcase its role decently. (obviously loses super hard to jynx/gengar leads but who runs these anymore)

    [Gen 1] OU replay: marcop9923 vs. The Idiot Ninja - Pokémon Showdown
    [Gen 1] OU replay: The Idiot Ninja vs. tjdaas - Pokémon Showdown



    disagree on gengar being only viable as a lead btw, midgar is good against eqless lax sets (but it is a definite gamble, and not one often worth taking)
     
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  39. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Rhydon's Rock Slide on Exeggutor, possibly a para'd one, is where I start having at least some fun with Rhydon; Golem's Body Slam is a joke, and even Rhydon's isn't worth the discomfort of finding a way to get it in 7/10 (unless it switches into Zapdos, of course). I feel like Body Slam is kinda specific for Starmie.

    I think Gengar makes more sense as non-lead right now: most people don't use Jynx and Alakazam is all over the place. Even there, it's shaky. Don't know what to think about it other than not using it.

    I used Meditate/Body Slam/Reflect/Rest in the paraslam days, and it was somewhat decent even though it was struggling against Lapras/Zapdos. Rest makes it durable and looks like a key piece of the puzzle to me, but it's a 4MSS case. It's hard to get away with no damaging moves.
     
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  40. EB0LA

    EB0LA TOUR BANNED Member

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    That kind of hypno just seems like a cheap gimick, no offense. Just need to treat it as a lead eggy, and just stoss instead of twaving.

    I don't think hypno belongs in D. Kingler is a stretch as well. Pinsir & sandslash should stay E.
     
  41. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    It loses a lot of impact if your opponent knows what he's facing and how to play against it, but how does stossing help? Hypno still gets his Hypnosis and perhaps even a twave on Eggy AND gets to be sleep foddered. STossing doesn't particularly help.
    Really, think about it / try it out yourself before calling it bad (well, it is bad, you can call it that. but it's not a 'cheap gimmick', it has its function of pretty much guaranteeing the sleep trades where you want them as long as your hypnosis luck isn't awful).

    @Marco: I thought of that set actually (with HBeam > BSlam but you get the point), but yeah, far too frail on the special side to really be viable. That set is definitely not D rank material.
     
  42. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Sooooo I've got a new proposal.

    Everything in A- => B
    Everything in B => C
    Whatever looks out of place in the new C based on consensus (Dnite?) => D

    Based on current discussion, I feel like A-/A+/S are settled for the time being. Meanwhile, based on discussion in this thread and in Marco's 2P/2U thread, there is nothing even remotely resembling a consensus as to what belongs in B/C. It seems like literally everything in B has been suggested as potentially dropping down to C, while some players have spoken in favour of Cloy and/or Bel being in B (or at the very least spoken positively of them). It seems to me that there's no distinct line between B and C, while there are very distinct lines between A-, A+, S and below. Consequently, I think all of B and C should be grouped together, while it just seems logical to me that we'd eliminate a subrank and recognise that the gap between A- and A+ is sufficient to warrant separate ranks.

    The only drawback to my proposal as I see it is that our descriptions of each rank might then be inaccurate- potentially underselling a lot of pokemon.

    Also I've singled out Dnite as potentially dropping to D because I don't recall much support for it lately while a few have expressed the opinion that it's shit, but you never know lol, this is the cue for someone to point out that it can still be an absolutely dominant sweeper with only a little luck. In any case, I don't think it ought to be dropped if more than one person argues for it in C, even though I suspect they'd be a minority.

    Although I normally think it's silly to hold a vote for this kind of thing, that's another thing worth considering to clear up this mess.
     
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  43. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Yeah I don't support that, we should stick with what the ranks mean. It is definitely a bit of an ambiguous state on the whole right now though. I think more discussion and play can only be healthy though; maybe it will make sense in a few months to have an open vote on the rank of every mon from A- down to D, idk. I don't think the rankings are in a bad place right now though; I think there's some possible changes we can make between D/E ranks but I think on the whole all of the B and C ranks belong where they are even though with any one Pokemon there's at least one or two people in support of some sort of a change; there isn't a huge amount of support on any change except for the support which there was for for moving rhydon up to A- which has been done now at the behest of the community.

    Interesting idea though.
     
  44. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I still support this. I don't even think the descriptions are all that inaccurate in that scenario either, like I feel the C rank description describes most of the pokemon in B, while I definitely think A- is a little questionable, but within reason.

    Nails proposed earlier that Egg drop to form S-, which I agreed with. At this point though I'm even wondering whether it could even drop to A+. In virtually any team that aggressively spreads paralysis it can often become redundant, as sleep often becomes too difficult to get off, especially since bypassing any sleep blocker can often be difficult and costly. Admittedly, not all teams will be so aggressive with their para and you can try to ease up on paralysis until you get sleep off, but para is just so damn good that it can be too good to pass up, as it unlocks a lot of pokemon in terms of damaging the opposing team. If it can't get sleep off, Egg becomes a shell of itself, good for sponging hits from GolDon and blowing itself up and that's about it.

    Maybe my playstyle's grown a little warped or something, but in sooooooo many matches I find myself noticing that Egg is kinda useless
     
  45. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Nope, Exeggutor to A+ makes no sense. I can see a point dropping it to S- because of paraslam immunity for the other S, but it's just way better than the other A+.
    Actually, it shapes the early game (lead/Chansey/Snorlax/Egg) so much (other than being extremely versatile and one of the very few if not only common Exploders) that I support it being straight S.
     
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  46. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    It's so adaptable too, and even the threat of sleep changes things. It's useful in every matchup and usually puts in serious work, but at the worst it can trade

    Egg is still cleary S imo
     
  47. Nails

    Nails Member

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    eggy is very clearly the 4th best mon, and being crippled by body slam and having 2 weaknesses are rough, but it's still "you need good reasons to drop it" tier (the s ranks are "there are nearly never good reasons to drop them", fwiw). playing without eggy is almost always less effective than playing with it. sometimes it can feel bad to play with egg when you can't get a sleep off but the worst it will ever reasonably do is psychic into a paraed target and boom for a trade kill. the degree that it warps the game around the reliability of its sleep far surpasses anything outside of the big 3. how high its baseline is combined with how punishing it is at all stages of the game lock it somewhere in the s tier.
     
  48. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Whilst I advocate for Egg in S this isn't necessarily true. Now, granted, this is a small sample size, but today I played 8 tournament games and won 6. I brought victreebel 4 games (both wrap and sd variants) and won all of those games, but went 2-2 in the 4 games i brought exeggutor (this was for indigo cup vs ggyara & kaz and then vs alfredo in timvitational, all replays are publicly available)

    But just because u can do fine when dropping egg (like I do) that doesn't make it not S rank, it's still excellent and u really lose nothing from bringing it to 100% of games lol. Also way more user-friendly than vic
     
  49. Nails

    Nails Member

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    yea i rephrased that line a few times and still didn't get it right. was going for usually it's better to use egg than not use egg.
     
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  50. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    Yesterday i lost with Starmie last and won with Pinsir both for tours, so what?
    What Nails said is just right every team without one of the S ranks would be better if you add them. Playing around, "still winning" doesn't change a solid fact. Also i saw the matches you are referring to, not a good a example really.
     
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