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  3. Tiers

    View Introduction to Tiers if you don't know what tiers are. Pokémon Perfect tiers are named differently to those on Smogon. A numeral followed by the letter U, e.g. 1U, 2U, 3U, represents a main tier on Pokémon Perfect – the '1' of '1U' representing the tier level. For a tier to be a main tier, it must be balanced (nothing is too powerful and game-breaking) and diverse enough (include a variety of Pokémon and strategies). A numeral followed by the letter P, e.g. 1P, 2P, 3P contain all Pokémon that are deemed overpowered in the respective 1U, 2U, 3U tiers. The 1st tier level allows Pokémon that are banned in the 2nd level, and this process continues down. Read the tier list, and in-depth explanations of the tiers naming system and tiering system. Also check out our analyses for all tiers.

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RBY OU / 1U (OverUsed) Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Enigami, Feb 18, 2015.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    I think gar/vic are 1U, rest are debatable and I don't have a strong opinion atm though I do have a bias. I also think Lusch's approximate VR list is pretty good

    btw Enigami says he wants to make rby 1u VR more like other VR in that the tier is split in the B rank so if u put the A mons there in A+, B mons in A-, and the C/D stuff in B somewhere and some maybe in C, then u would achieve that
     
  2. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Hating on Golem might be trendy, but I'll point you at 2015 when you'd all decided Golem was better and Rhydon wasn't 1U. If you're going "once and for all" it's insane to drop Golem.

    Enigami/Disaster Area please don't hammer the square peg into the round hole.
     
  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    I don't really believe in any "once and for all" nature of any metagame, although there is a case to make that the pre-crystal_ discoveries RBY OU meta was pretty stable, but im not even so sure of that.

    We go for what we think makes sense now and see how long it holds
     
  4. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    It's not a trend, it's called "fact", deal with it this is no 2015
     
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  5. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja Member

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    There's two points I'd like to make here.

    One: yes, I believe we can tier 'once and for all'. There are going to be shifts and rises and drops in viability but I really don't expect them to be large enough to disrupt tiering - and in the unlikely event that they occur, we could always go back to this in the future. Even if it might not be a true once and for all tiering, we should go ahead and act as if it were, there is no harm in going back to reassess things if our understanding of the tier changes.

    Two: I think we have to establish what exactly means for a mon to be "OU worthy". To me, and this is merely a very rough conceptual statement that can and should be discussed further, a pokémon is good enough to be tiered in OU if it can be slotted into a variety of teams and perform reasonably well in all of them. Anything else is UU. Mons that are UU can perform well in tailor-made OU builds, but are generally going to be unviable in other situations.

    Therefore:
    Gengar is OU. The hard countering of EQ-less Snorlax and access to fast sleep makes him a good pick in a number of different builds. He has a completely unique niche and a toolbox that makes building with him different, but not entirely restrictive, as is the case for other pokémon in discussion here.

    Victreebel is OU. The recent tournament success speaks for itself, it can take over games extremely easily and it is a nightmare match up for a lot of standard builds.

    Jolteon is DEFINITELY OU. Of all the decisions this is perhaps the one I'm most confident on. The simple fact that he is a non-Rock/Ground Zapdos check is enough to give him a niche in a lot of different builds and he had the highest winrate out of any pokémon with more than 10 uses in the Invitational, which makes me think he's currently a bit underrated. I don't think his place in OU should even be in discussion really.

    ---

    Golem is UU. Is your team a specific build that wants to explode Exeggutor and/or Starmie? Oddly specific thing you're looking for there, but Golem might be the mon for you. Otherwise, he's bad. He's gotten ridiculously low usage for a while now for very good reasons, the teams that genuinely want a Golem over anything else are so few and far between that I think he is an easy UU pick.

    Articuno is UU. Again, he has specific match ups where he's better than Lapras, but the builds where those match ups are a genuinely significant edge are too few and far between for me to call him OU. He definitely has a niche, there definitely are teams that want him over the Lap, but it's just not enough to put him in the ranks with Victreebel or Gengar.

    Moltres is UU. Making Moltres work is just so hard. I've seen a ridiculously small number of Moltres builds actually function, and while the mon on paper has a lot of good upsides, none of the things he does are exclusive to him and he has to rely on inaccurate moves to do anything which is inevitably going to lose him games he "should" win. He's just not good enough.

    ---

    Dragonite is the only mon I'm a bit uncertain on, because I believe he's underexplored at the moment. I haven't seen much of him in tournament play but he is a mon with AgiliWrap, TWave, Blizzard, a strong HyperBeam, and a couple other interesting tricks in his toolset, which makes me think we should be seeing more of him. I would like to see more people try him out before giving a final judgement, for now he's UU in my eyes because he has never proven to be OU-worthy but I think this is the one ranking we might realize to be wrong on one or two years down the road.
     
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  6. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    (from this admittedly old/outdated thread All Gens - PP's Tiering Philosophy | Pokémon Perfect
    and
    (from this thread)

    I don't think it's that tricky a question to answer, really, it's just a matter of if a Pokemon is sufficiently viable. There are ways you could interpret or define that which are more practical, and for me that's fine if you do it, it's a reasonable interpretation of that definition.

    Btw, I think the phrase OU worthy is a bit weird, because for a Pokemon to be OU it just needs a certain usage threshhold (in later gens at least), it doesn't say much about the actual viability of the Pokemon which do or don't make the cut... it doesn't make sense in the context, to me, even though obviously 1U and OU are the same tier in RBY. When we make our changes, we're changing what's legal in 2U, not UU, and since Smogon actually has its own UU tier now I think the distinction matters more
     
  7. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja Member

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    See, I disagree with this philosophy. I don't care about whether or not you can use your favorite pokémon somewhere, I care about making tiers that accurately reflect the viability of things. Just because you can use Persian in OU and have it be good enough it doesn't make him worthy of being tiered with the rest of the OUs imo.
     
  8. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Member

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    Imagine that we had a really good way of measuring the value of a pokemon. And with this we figured out the Gengar is the worst OU pokemon*. So that by using Gengar you would generally reduce the likelihood that you would win an individual game compared with using any other OU pokemon. Now, it might still be worthwhile to use Gengar. For instance lets say being known for occasionally using Gengar prevents your opponents from using Persian against you, and because you dont have to take additional measures to cover that threat you might increase your overall win rate in all games, in spite of the hit you take for using Gengar occasionally. So then because of that fact we decide that using Gengar is definitely viable and therefore should be OU.

    So the question then is, what if you have a pokemon like Golem, which might almost always be worse than Rhydon, but when we measure its value we find that using Golem would reduce your likelihood of losing an individual game less than using Gengar would. Golem probably shouldnt be included in your OU rotation, but for any one off game is still better than Gengar, something we have agreed is OU.

    Because I think Golem is, by this standard, a better pokemon than Victreebel or Gengar**.

    * This is all hypothetical, please dont pick a fight about this bit.
    ** This bit you can fight me about

    [Edited because I think I was applying an unfair double-standard in my evaluation of Jolteon]
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  9. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    I'm not known for saying much, but I would like to contribute to this discussion by saying that Persian is good.
     
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  10. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    I thought about this a little bit more

    Regarding this: I can only agree. I too believe that viability of certain Pokemon is gonna change over time, but not to an amount that Pokemon that we consider OU now would suddenly lose so much appeal that they're no longer considered viable enough to be OU. Vice versa, for the OU tier at least, I don't expect any lower tiered Pokemon to magically rise in viability to the point where we consider them legitimate part of OU.

    That being said, we need to be careful to not drift too extremely into one direction or another with any Pokemon, to make sure that the result (as it should ideally be final) is correct. with the minimal amount of doubt possible. Ergo, are we really sure Golem should not belong to 1U/OU, or is it maybe a bit hasty. Or, the other way around, are we really sure Victreebel should belong to OU/1U etc. (for example).

    What you give here, is a start of a "definition", and one that makes sense to measure OU-affiliation against. To add to this, I've thought about something else that can be added to said "definition":
    How does this Pokemon's presence affect the tier? Clearly, if the presence of a Pokemon has an effect on the overall metagame or not is something that indicates wether it can be seen as part of the tier or not. What do I mean with that? Basically, does the existence of a certain Pokemon change the way games are played (lines of play, chosen by the players) or does the existence of a certain Pokemon even have an effect on movesets of other Pokemon or how often several Pokemon are used.

    To give an easy example (please don't rip this one to shreds, it's just for explaining purposes), Starmie's movesets. If there were no Exeggutor in RBY OU, Starmie would have much less of a reason to run Blizzard. It'll probably much rather go for a STAB move like Surf to do more damage to neutral targets, getting 100% accuracy, OHKOing Rhydon for example. So the presence of Exeggutor has an effect on that for example.

    Now we can ask the same thing about the seven candidates that I made out to be borderline cases (some of them probably are not even, I just wanted to make sure to not accidently exclude one). I don't want to go into too much detail here, but let's have a quick look.

    Gengar is pretty much a no-brainer. Its existence alone is (next to Counter-scouting purposes) the sole reason to run EQ on your normal types for example. Gengar, whith his unique typing, despite not being the most common, has quite some infuence on other Pokemon in the metagame. By this metric, that clearly means it belongs to OU.

    Regarding Victreebel, I believe I can give an example as well, as to how it influences the metagame (at least a little). In this case it is not about contributing to certain Pokemon running certain moves or not, but rather about how games are played. I must note that Victreebel is not the only Pokemon that I hold responsible for what I'm describing now. I think you can group partial trappers in general here, but of course only the best of them (preferably those who get the most accurate trapping moves), who offer more than only partial trapping to a team, will be contenders for OU here. So, we all know how common it is to lead with Starmie or Alakazam and use Thunder Wave turn 1. There are a few paths that players can go in the lead match-up with paralysis leads facing each other. A lot of the time people will just trade paralysis, but sometimes one of the players might switch to Chansey and keep their fast Psychic type lead free from status. I believe this is partly (at least) to be safer against Wrappers like Cloyster, Victreebel and Dragonite, since having something to outspeed those can be very important. And since you cannot know on turn 1 if you are facing a Victreebel, you may chose to take paralysis with something slower, while you otherwise might rather like to keep your Chansey free from paralysis. So in this way Victreebel (or Cloyster, Dragonite) have an influence on the OU metagame, that is not negligible.

    And we can ask the same question for the remaining Pokemon. I don't think Jolteon, Golem, Articuno and Moltres have some sort of effect on the metagame like this (feel free to correct me, I might just not think of it right now).
    Still, that does not mean, they cannot be considered OU. Obviously other things play a role as well. But those Pokemon will have to claim their affiliation to OU on other grounds, more than the above.
     
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  11. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    I'm confused, why are we discussing MoltCuno and not Persian? Persian's definitely in the same tier as them and I'd probably take it over the birds. Tbh all three of them seem pretty black and white though, all 2U.

    I actually think Moltres is a better overall pokemon than Cuno tbh, which might be a bit of a hot take but w/e. The first thing is that any comparison to Dragonite fundamentally misunderstands the best way to play Moltres. You should never expect to pull off an Agiwrap sweep with it because it's so unreliable, instead Fire Spin is used to both generate free switches and shut down enemy counterplay (e.g. stopping opposing Chansey from recovering). Furthermore the fact that its STAB is tied for the strongest unboosted special attack in the game means it has immediate offensive presence, something Dnite can only dream about, while also combining with AgiSpin to give the user a LOT more options than both Cuno and Dnite in how it's played.

    Instead, AgiSpin is best used opportunistically, to capitalise on an opponent being weak enough that it should only take a Spin or two to put them in HBeam range. One thing that really helps with this is burn. The synergy between burn and Fire Spin is actually ridiculous, to the point where burn can even be useful against Starmie, which would normally top the list of things not to burn. Between burn and Fire Spin you're dealing around 10% damage each turn while it sits there and does nothing, so you only need a bit of chip damage (which is also really easy to accumulate with Molt) before AgiSpin into HBeam on a burned Star becomes a viable option (any more than two Spins is too many though). Granted, it's quite unreliable due to accuracy and FSpin's variable number of hits, and although Molt can exploit a burned Star it's teammates generally can't, but it's still a very playable option, and I've had games where the sole reason I've won is that I burned their Starmie.

    Molt's ridiculously potent, it's just held back by its lack of reliability. Also its matchups are funny, arguably the best big 4 matchup in the game, but it loses to literally every relevant 5th slot pokemon
    ==================================
    Regarding the whole "once and for all" thing, I disagree with the principle of considering things set in stone. I'd also like to point out that metagame shifts tends to be hard to predict. It's hard to say with accuracy now because we have the benefit of hindsight, but I really don't think anyone would've expected a lot of the recent metagame changes at all- just look how Golem's plummeted while Don's risen to its former glory- these are massive changes that I really doubt anyone could've foreseen in a metagame as stable as RBY's. I just don't think it's reasonable to assume that the metagame will remain roughly as it is now, and that it's even possible to predict future changes

    That said, I think it's fair to dispute the most recent division between 1U and 2U. Iirc it occurred in the midst of all these changes and some players weren't fully on board with said changes (e.g. me lol), as well as the fact that the VR we were using wasn't updated to reflect these changes, such as by dropping A- to B and B to C :rolleyes:, so that all the genuinely contentious pokemon were sitting in the same rank. I'll also note that although I disagree with setting things in stone, it's very reasonable in RBY to expect a given tier division to last several years before there's been enough change to justify revisiting it. So in that context I don't mind it being called "once and for all" or whatever, just so long as we leave open the option to revisit things.

    Also, as a quick side note, I think that this is a good principle we should be applying to lower tiers. I think it was a mistake to go as deep as we did as quickly as we did. With the playerbase for RBY lower tiers already being small and variable based on interest, it's practically impossible to adequately develop our tiers, which we need to do in order to make decisions about them. This makes for a precarious foundation, which we've then built several other tiers on top of. Overall I think it's just impossible to maintain the tiers we have, given the overall level of interest and resources we have. Instead, an ideal would be to have a thoroughly understood tier, such that if there are any changes in the tier list, the lower tier can adapt existing knowledge rather than starting anew, with the latter being how it feels atm. Although I've always been opposed to creating a tier list that tries to stand for all time, I do think we should aim to try and make them more enduring and well-understood, by focusing on 2U for a long time, before maybe considering 3U. As much as I want to see the tiering project go as far as reasonably possible, I just don't think it's sustainable to try, since we spread everything too thin and just end up with a house of cards. Better to focus on a small number of quality tiers than a large number that gather dust and get invalidated eventually anyway.
    ====================
    I want to object to the idea of moving everything contentious up into B. The fact that other generations split across the B tier should have no bearing whatsoever on RBY, since later gens have far more pokemon present in all ranks of the VR, making it more rational to split in B since you generally end up with a decently sized tier by that method. Enforcing that on RBY just clutters our VR and warps everything, especially in relation to the definitions we have
    ====================
    Lastly I want to strongly object to the idea of holding up pokemon from whatever rank you please as contenders for making it into 1U/2U. This is totally arbitrary and flies in the face of viability based tiering. We should settle on a rank to set our border in (C is what we've used and I agree with it) and if you think a pokemon should be discussed, make an argument for why it's good/bad enough to belong in that rank. I mean I can kinda see not wanting to distort a VR for the sake of tiering, but the whole point is that our tiering is built upon our collective assessment of the viability of pokemon, so you can't just ignore it completely.

    So. The pokemon I'm interested in discussing are Cloyster, Dragonite, Gengar, Golem, Jolteon, Jynx and Victreebel. I believe Gengar, Golem, Jolteon and Jynx should be included as I dispute their place in B, and believe the lot of them should be moved down to C, and I believe we should be discussing the Pokemon in C rank. I can provides arguments for this, but we've already discussed these pokemon ad nauseam. All of the D rank pokemon I believe are accurately ranked, and therefore do not belong in this discussion because they're simply not good enough.

    Cloyster- 1U. Consistently provides significant defensive utility. Offensively it's a bit unreliable due to matchup issues, but if you can get around that it's an absolute beast.

    Dragonite- 2U. Could maybe consider 1U though. I can kinda see TIN's point that it might be a bit unexplored due to how badly it's shunned in high level play, but just because something's unexplored, doesn't mean that you'll find anything good from exploring it. Until it can demonstrate that it's more worth using, it can stay in 2U.

    Gengar- 1U. It's still something you might theoretically see in the lead spot, but I'm now buying in on the idea of it as a non-lead. I was skeptical at first, but I used it recently and was pleasantly surprised by how it performed in that slot.

    Golem- 2U (surprise, I'm no longer defending it lmao). I just really don't see much of a reason to use it tbh. TIN hit the nail on the head with the "explode on Egg or Starmie" thing, but I'd like to point out that blowing up on Egg isn't even really that valuable imo, since it's really easy to wear down in the early game, before Golem even sniffs battle. Also Explosion, while a valuable general tool, is too vague in its purpose to be truly meaningful when teambuilding, except for blowing up on Star, given that it's a common Golem switch in.

    Jolteon- 1U. How times have changed lol, voting Golem out of 1U and Jolteon in. Anyway, although I'm no longer as ardent of a fan as I once was, I still think Jolteon is good. Can plug a lot of holes when teambuilding and it's still a pretty damn potent offensive option

    Jynx- 1U. I never seriously considered this dropping out of 1U, I only included it here because I believe it should be C. We've discussed how it's bad when just slapped on a team a lot, but it's still good with support, and can be used on non-standard builds.

    Victreebel- 1U. Really on the fence on this one, like I personally would've said 2U, but after reading some of the arguments I shifted slightly (I would've been on the fence regardless). It's really niche, but it has a lot of offensive potential, but what separates it from other pokemon that are niche offensive threats is that it actually supports the team through status, meaning it pulls its weight. So yeah, I'm open to all arguments here.
     
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  12. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    All I see is another chapter of the long diatribe for awarding POKEMON honorary titles (read, OU) when most of them are just situational (they depend vastly on what happens with the first Thunder Wave of the game).
    I would say that Victreebel is way more relevant (hence has a high usage and people claiming it's OU) because other than learning Sleep&Stun, it sweeps easily over para'd Starmie and Rhydon, which are definitely going to see a lot of play right now. And possibly forever will.
    Just like Golem depends on Physlax and BeamBolt being the most common sets, which is something we'll hardly see again.

    Anyway the OU split is a decision that only has an impact on lower tiers instead - that remain underplayed at best.
    The aforementioned examples show that those "inconsistent" pokemon depend on the context, which is getting more and more stable.
    I don't know what will happen when players will stop clicking Thunder Wave on turn 1, at least most of the time. I, myself, have been not doing that consistently for a long time and I think that hurt me a lot indeed in my late stage.
    That's what I'm curious to see before asking for a Reflect ban from Snorlax's and Chansey's moveset.
    It's been many years of Chansey switching into Snorlax and Snorlax using Ice Beam + Reflect only to deal with other Reflect Laxes. It's been fun, what about stopping it?
    Consider that this is coming from, you know, a spectator.
     
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  13. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    I've always considered votes on VR to be a bit formal for something that's really about discussion, but I feel like we're discussing things a ton and nothing happens. I feel like we should put forward ideas on what changes to make and people vote on the best solution. If certain changes are mutually exclusive, then use a preferential system. I mention this because imo there should be a broad reform, and none of the individual movements make sense their own.

    I propose that all of A- drop to B and all of B drop to C

    So yeah, propose stuff and let's vote

    Also quick side note, worry about 2U later imo. The VR should be resolved first, and sorting out 1U/2U is more appropriate for a separate thread anyway
     
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  14. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Agreed. At this point I feel everything in B and C are roughly on par with each other, which makes it sensible to just merge them.

    I'm putting Hypno in E, that was largely agreed upon with only one opposed (as far as I recall). If attitudes on Hypno have changed, feel free to propose it back to D.

    I also want to do something about F rank.

    I propose G to become F, and either making current E/F into E+/E-, or F/G into F+/F
     
  15. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Regarding Hypno I don't think people actually discussed it much. I was the one advocating that it drop into E, TIN disagreed but I don't think many other people commented. If I had to pick which of us was the better informed, I'd give the edge to TIN, as I believe that they have more recent experience with Hypno, whereas I used it a while ago and I suspect the set I was using wasn't the most optimal. I did mean to test it recently, but that came after testing Nidos, Poli, etc. so using something that's actually viable suddenly felt amazing so I decided to drop the issue rather than properly testing it lol.

    Regarding your proposal, I agree that F should be the bottom rank, as I think that's more appropriate. That said, I generally don't like subranks in RBY VR and this is no exception. I think they should all be merged into one. Alternatively, you could even alter G rank to be a bit more tongue-in-cheek, maybe call it sub-F and say that there's no reason to ever use these pokemon. With all that said though, I'm not going to stand in the way of reorganising F/G, so I'd still support your proposal to make F/F-. I don't agree with E+/E, as to me the E/F cutoff roughly defines which pokemon are viable gimmicks and which ones are unviable
     
  16. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    What the.... Cloyster in C??? Now why yall doin my boy like that? There some people in this thread that need to meet me in battle -.- Seriously though. You put those nasty things like jolteon and jynx above my boy? GROSS.
     
  17. Dre89

    Dre89 Member

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    Reading the posts here I think people have misconceptions about Cloyster.

    People talk about cloyster being a worse lapras with explosion, but in my experience explosion isn't the reason cloyster is good.

    Rest cloyster is the best switch-in to reflect lax in the game and clamp gives you a lot of control. People talk about the accuracy, but you should only use it where misses aren't too punishing (eg. against snorlax). People also talk about wrappers being useless if paralysed, but cloy can rest it off and continue to wall lax. I've had battles where I've taken multiple paraslams with cloy and continued to wall lax and tauros.

    The great thing about cloyster is that you can either play it as your filler or as a snorlax replacement. As a filler it doesn't much offensive capability like other fillers do, but it frees up your snorlax to play a more hit and run style, because it is no longer required to be your opposing lax check. As a snorlax replacement it compliments many fillers nicely. For example, it can boom on starmie to open up rhydon, and rhydon can wall zapdos, who cloy has problems with.

    On another note, people don't consider bel 1U because they only think of it as a swords dance sweeper. In my opinion the support set of leaf double powder played as mid game controller is better than swords dance sets because it does its job much more consistently. People say paralysis makes it useless, which is mostly true, but the great thing is that most of it's counters rely on their speed and don't like being paralysed themselves. If bel gets para'd at full health by a twave, you can often force 'trades' by forcing one of its counters to take paralysis before it kills it.
     
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  18. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    You can really tell when you're talking to a person with experience with these pokemon and when you aren't. This man has experience. Cloyster is amazing. Clamp has won me games I should not have won. It can get you out of a foxhole some times. I've been dominating the ladder on showdown with a team that replaces lax with cloyster. Clamp is great when you're feeling out your opponent. Like you said it is great against lax. "is he going to stay in? is he going to switch to chansey?" It is nice to feel your opponent out with. Also, people are constantly complaining about reflect lax, well cloyster doesn't care about that. I personally don't use rest, I've never had a need for it. I instead use double edge. Great for parad starmie switch ins or chansey. Cloyster is great. I've also had a good bit of success with victreebel as well. I use sleep powder, wrap, razor leaf, body slam. Body slam is good for the things that razor leaf doesn't hurt too well, and the chance for paralysis is also nice. I don't use it mid game though. I find it has a much better time if used during late game but I guess that all depends on the team you use and the moveset. Your rhydon team would most likely benefit more from a midgame vic because it weakens things for don.
     
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  19. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    Cloyster is not just a bad Lapras and found his niche thanks to Snorlax dropping Hyper Beam so often i agree. But it is not as great as you make it sound neither, there are big downsides that you didn't say.

    1- The offensive presence against water types is 0, both Starmie and Lapras can wall it while also resisting Explosion, negating an 1v1 trade.
    2- As any Rest water user, Cloyster enforce you to run also Rhydon (or Jolteon/Golem) unless you want a colossal 6-0 by Zapdos. At that point your team can't have 2 fillers+big4+lead and must drop one (Usually Exeggutor because the lead is crucial), and the team gets weaker than your average big 4, greatly exposed to Rhydon in this case.

    3- Tauros is running Fire Blast nowday, that is a 4hko instead of 5hko, can be lowered with crits and is generally enough to pressure it while Resting.

    4- Athough rare Hyper Beam+Reflect Lax is a thing, and Cloyster doesn't really apreciate switching on it.

    There are also some wrong statements, the best Reflect switchins are Gengar and Porygon if anything, as Cloyster is always in para danger or Hyper Beam (Gengar does fear Earthquake but it is much rarer than Hyper Beam).
    I'm higher on Cloyster than i used to be, and i recognize his uses, but it is far from that "very convenient best Reflect Lax switchin" you described
     
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  20. Dre89

    Dre89 Member

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    Well the point is that he walls lax well but offers other utility as well.

    Like I said before, you either drop lax and have an offensive filler like Rhydon, or you play it as your filler but play your lax more offensively as opppsed to a reflect set that’s used just to neutralise other lax.

    You lose offensive pressure against waters but that’s less valuable than having a great answer to lax because other Pokémon on your team can deal with waters. Being able to wall common lax sets and still have other things to offer is arguably more valuable than being able to threaten mons that other mons on your team already do.

    As for Tauros, cloyster is a decent switch in because even though Tauros might be able to break it, it normally doesn’t want to stay in to eat a blizz or boom, and you can rest the damage off. If Tauros comes in on rest and tries to break through there’s always the option of your own lax if you have one.
     
  21. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Aren't you just describing pokemon though? Every move set and pokemon has a trade off. If Tauros is running fireblast for example, that means he isn't running earthquake or blizzard right? That means either my gengar is having a really great time, or my zapdos is having a really great time. If you do things to make my cloyster weak to your team, you're making other pokes on my team stronger. Obviously Cloyster isn't going to cover everything, that's why you have 5 other pokemon slots. This is my problem with viability rankings in general, we don't really talk about the specifics of the team the pokemon is on.
     
  22. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Clamp. Now, granted, this does depend on team setup, because Clamping Starmie and going to Chansey isn't particularly amazing, but going to Jolt can be quite effective.

    Lapras is not a wall for Cloy. I ran the numbers a while back and Cloy vs. Lapras 1v1 is about 50:50. If you're trying to PP-stall Clamp, it's obviously useful, but just parking it in front of Cloy isn't a very good solution.
     
  23. Lojh

    Lojh Above Average GSCer Member

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    What does fb tauros do, I’m not really an rbyer
     
  24. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    From what I understand, it is there to inflict burn to lower the attack of your opponent's pokemon, such as the opposing tauros.
     
  25. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    Fire Blast has 30% burn rate in RBY. That said, I guess that FB Tauros can do stuff like:

    1) Burn the enemy Tauros on a ditto. Burning a Tauros will permanently drop its attack, since nobody uses Rest on Tauros (which is the only effective way to get rid BRN/PAR/PSN status on RBY - opponent using Haze is another way, but nobody uses Haze in RBY).

    Since Tauros is the best physical sweeper of the meta, a burned Tauros is a worse Tauros. However, it does not means that BRN Tauros is useless: it can still paralyze foes with Body Slam and rely on critical hits to deal heavy damage, as CH always ignores status changes (including Burn's ATK drop).

    I'm not playing, but probably this one is the greatest reason to ever consider using Fire Blast on Tauros.

    2) FB Tauros can also burn another pokémon that enjoys using physical moves. Rhydon, Snorlax without Rest and Golem are pokémon that hates burns, specially because they are slow pokémon, and slow pokémon means a lower critical hit rate.

    However, if you are against Golem/Rhydon, you'll prefer to use Blizzard and just kill them with it. So, you're probably not gonna burn GolDon with Fire Blast, unless the enemy switches to one of them against Tauros (which is usually a very poor move).

    Burn will also bother Zapdos, as it reduces Drill Peck's damage and makes it less threatning against Exeggutor and Reflectless Chansey.

    3) Burning a Restless partial-trap user is a way to deny their utility, as they will take BRN damage on every turn they attack. So, if the foe switch-ins Restless Cloyster, Victreebel or Dragonite against a Tauros, they might get burned and reduce their usefulness.

    4) Burning's damage helps fellow partial-trappers to sweep. Since burn damage happens every turn, moves like Wrap and Clamp are going to be more effective (Wrap damage + BRN damage every turn). So, if you happen to burn a Starmie and is successful at using Agility on your Dragonite in another turn, you'll kill Starmie much faster than without a burn. A Dragonite can kill a burned Gengar with Wrap, despite the fact that Wrap itself won't deal any damage.

    This strategy is more effective when you burn slower pokémon, such as Chansey, Rhydon/Golem, Exeggutor and Snorlax, as you don't rely on Agility to make it work. Cloyster and Victreebel does not have Agility on their movepool, so, they won't enjoy any benefit if you launch a burn on Starmie (however, that will help a lot to deplete Chansey's life).

    5) Burning a ReflectLax will force it to use Rest eventually. You can use a burned or Resting Snorlax as a setup bait to AgiliWrap Dragonite (Body Slam's para is the greatest risk you'll take here if Snorlax doesn't switch on the turn he gets burned).

    Or, you can use that Rest turn as a free turn to do anything you want.

    _________________

    I really think that 1) is the reason why they are using FB Tauros, and maybe 4). For the last case, BRN+Wrap combo was strong enough to change Onix's status from "complete garbage" to "hey, it can do something!", using Toxic/Bind/Explosion/EQ or Rock Slide; in this case, the strategy used PSN+Wrap, but the effect is roughly the same as BRN+Wrap. Usually, Starmie is the pokémon that you DO NOT want to burn, but with Moltres, the combo Agility + Fire Spin + Burn may turn over the table and make Starmie faint against the fire bird (so, a Moltres player actually wants a burned Starmie).

    However, that's a very high risk strategy, since partial-trap moves are not accurate (Wrap has the highest accuracy among them, with 85%). And if you take things like Starmie and Agility setup turns into account, the risk is even higher.

    Fire Blast itself is risky if your foe has a Frozen pokémon, as a pokémon on RBY will only thaw by using Haze against it, or attacking it with a Fire-type move that has a chance of burning the foe (Fire Spin won't thaw a pokémon).

    ______________

    EDIT: Most of these strategies has great flaws, and they are the reason why FB is not used on Tauros. Tauros uses its standart moves most of the time (Body Slam/Hyper Beam/Earthquake/Blizzard), as it has a great coverage against most pokémon in RBY OU. Drop one of these moves for Fire Blast is risky as well, and the reward may not be so great.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
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  26. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Fire Blast has 30% burn chance in RBY (really more like 25% after you take into account misses). Using it against opposing Tauros really isn't the smartest idea since Tauros can crit through the burn and Blizzard has a freeze chance if you really want to play the odds, but who am I to tell people not to do stupid things?

    Also hits Egg and Victreebel, although Blizzard is better at it because it's more accurate and also hits Zapdos/Dragonite/Rhydon/Golem.

    FB is slightly better against Cloyster than Body Slam, but if you really want to beat Cloy with Tauros you should use an Electric move (for a 3HKO or inaccurate 2HKO rather than an inaccurate 4HKO).
     
  27. Dre89

    Dre89 Member

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    Yeah I’m not sure where fire blast would ever be the best option. Cloyster is the only one I can think of but you might as well take thunderbolt if you’re picking a move just for that. Fire blast also risks burning stuff like stsrmie so it seems like lots of unnecessary risk for extrememly situationalgain.
     
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  28. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    wtf FB Tauros is still niche imo. Whether it's EQ or Blizz that you give up, that's really valuable coverage you're forgoing, while FB's only use is in the Tauros ditto (in every other situation you're better off using an actual attack), and even there its net advantage is marginal- although the burn chance is significant a miss is even more devastating and unlucky rolls can mean you fail to 3HKO the opposing Tauros (this is rare though)

    Troller, a few of your points I disagree with. First is that Explosion vs Lap and Star is NOT something to be dismissed. Star requires less than 20% damage to be KO'd by it, which is very feasible chip damage, and something Cloy can get itself- Blizzard+Explosion is guaranteed to KO Star. As for Lap, there's obviously the stuff M9M worked on in terms of the matchup actually being roughly 50-50, which is itself notable, but it also indicates that Cloy can generate the KO itself... but it often doesn't really need to because Lap being slowish means it's very easy to revenge after an Explosion.

    That said, I'm not disputing Star as an overall issue, while even with M9M's work regarding Lap, although it's significant I nonetheless have reservations about its practical relevance, so Lap is overall a fair point to bring up. I also don't buy that Jolt as a partner to Cloy is a strong argument- the pairing is really good itself, but fitting it onto a team will be a big issue

    I don't think Rest Waters require GolDon/Jolt as a teammate. First is that it's obviously far from guaranteed that you'll encounter Zap, even if it is very common, and also many 5th slots will reveal themselves earlier than Zap will, so this would make Cloy clear to Rest within a reasonable timeframe. Even then its not unworkable, as it is possible to play around it.

    Lastly I disagree that HBLax is a huge problem for Cloy. The biggest issue I have is that even with HB, Lax can only 4HKO Cloy, while it becomes a 5HKO if Lax just spams BSlam (technically a 4HKO is possible, but it requires all 4 attacks to be max rolls). This means that realistically Lax is only Rest looping Cloy, while Lax's dependence on HB for the 4HKO means that Cloy can often afford to take a risk with an attack before Resting again.

    Anyway, I honestly think Cloy is better than most pokemon in B (not Jolt though lol), but I don't think it actually belongs in B. These rankings need an overhaul. B=>C, A-=>B. This has been long overdue, and we're going to be constantly getting posts along the lines of "wtf Golem should be in C" and "Cloy is better than most of B" until we actually do something about it. It seems there are a myriad of issues with the distinction between C and B, as almost every pokemon in those ranks has been brought up at some point, enough to say that they should be merged. Meanwhile, having A- and A+ is inaccurate, as it does not reflect that there really is a very significant gap between the mons currently in A- and A+. Also +/- is just unnecessary.

    At this point if this doesn't get resolved we should just make this change anyway. If people have a problem with that and they don't say anything, that's on them (please say something now though). These problems aren't going away and they're only making this VR thread more inaccurate and less authoritative as long as we do nothing to address these issues.
     
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  29. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    Agrees with Ortheore. Please please update this thread, Enigami.
    Just do it the way you please. If it is not perfect, people can argue about it after the changes to make some minor adjustments.

    I like Ortheore's concept of dropping stuff from A to B (cause atm almost all the stuff is concetrated in S and A rank. B is still a good rank, and this should be reflected, by containing good Pokemon.
    We can even argue based on the fresh SPL stats (people love to do this, as long as it aligns with their opinions [for example Zapdos being great, not so much if Zapdos suffered, they like to forget]). For convenience:

    + ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
    | Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
    + ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
    | 1 | Snorlax | 225 | 98.68% | 50.22% |
    | 1 | Chansey | 225 | 98.68% | 49.78% |
    | 3 | Tauros | 218 | 95.61% | 48.17% |
    | 4 | Exeggutor | 174 | 76.32% | 45.98% |
    | 5 | Starmie | 155 | 67.98% | 52.26% |
    | 6 | Alakazam | 97 | 42.54% | 52.58% |
    | 7 | Rhydon | 67 | 29.39% | 52.24% |
    | 8 | Zapdos | 45 | 19.74% | 35.56% |
    | 9 | Jynx | 33 | 14.47% | 51.52% |
    | 10 | Cloyster | 20 | 8.77% | 50.00% |
    | 11 | Lapras | 19 | 8.33% | 26.32% |
    | 12 | Victreebel | 17 | 7.46% | 52.94% |
    | 13 | Jolteon | 15 | 6.58% | 66.67% |
    | 14 | Gengar | 13 | 5.70% | 46.15% |
    | 15 | Slowbro | 8 | 3.51% | 50.00% |
    | 16 | Golem | 6 | 2.63% | 50.00% |
    | 17 | Articuno | 3 | 1.32% | 100.00% |
    | 18 | Moltres | 1 | 0.44% | 100.00% |
    | 18 | Kingler | 1 | 0.44% | 100.00% |
    | 18 | Omastar | 1 | 0.44% | 0.00% |
    | 18 | Dragonite | 1 | 0.44% | 0.00% |
    | 18 | Persian | 1 | 0.44% | 0.00% |
    | 18 | Charizard | 1 | 0.44% | 0.00% |

    We see a decline in Exeggutor. I was long opposed to dropping it to "S-", but if we want to open that can, I'd be fine with it by now. Meanwhile Starmie exploded and Alakazam is strong as ever. Rhydon is absolutely great. If people drop Exeggutor they are left with a free slot. Often it becomes even easier to fit Rhydon on those teams then. (Which explains his high usage and Zapdos win rate). To cut it short (without lenghthy explanation), here's what I'd implement as an update. (Just do something along those lines. Again: If people have a problem with it, we can still adjust those concerns afterwards, main thing is that something gets done!) Tried to rank withing ranks as well.

    S
    Tauros
    Snorlax
    Chansey
    Exeggutor

    A
    Starmie
    Alakazam

    B
    Rhydon
    Zapdos
    Lapras
    Cloyster
    Slowbro

    C
    Jynx
    Victreebel
    Gengar
    Jolteon
    Golem

    D
    Dragonite
    Articuno
    Moltres
    Persian

    [B gets kinda crowded, but well, Starmie is just so much better. Almost would have dumped Alakzam down to B as well, but we cannot make Starmie the lonely A, and dropping Eggy to A is too harsh. Thought about bumping Rhydon to A since it is currently the best of the bunch in B imo. People might not agree with me on that, but I'd fight the fight for Rhydon.]
     
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  30. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    Rhydon in A is too much, as much as i love it, the defensive flaws are abyssal. And i'm gonna say more, Jynx+Water on Rhydon is as much a "free win" as Rhydon on Zapdos really. It's been a while since i started saying that Zam is not Starm material and should drop at the very least to A- if not B+. Zapdos i won't stop arguing is the strongest filler and deserves to be over Zam and the others fillers easily, it's just so overwhelming and powerful, that even teams without Rhydon started trying Jolteon to avoid complete extermination.
     
  31. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Changes:

    B Rank merged with C Rank
    A- Rank -> B Rank
    Zapdos A > B Rank
    Cloyster C > B Rank
    Dragonite C > D Rank


    Implemented Lusch's suggestions. Cloyster's position might be a bit iffy in B, but otherwise it looks to me like a pretty accurate picture of the current metagame, and if not should generate discussion on why it's wrong atleast.

    F Rank -> F+ Rank
    G Rank -> F Rank
    New F Rank description: These Pokemon have flaws too crippling to ever be considered serious contenders in the tier, and suffer from being largely if not totally outclassed.


    I've been talking about this for a while and decided to just do it. The descriptions of F and G were quite similar and I really wanted to limit letter rankings to (S) A-F, so I put them both under F and separated them by a subrank. F+ is pretty much simply an acknowledgement that a niche exists for those Pokemon, but are otherwise only just outside of "unusable".
     
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  32. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Member

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    So thinking in terms of conveying useful information I think the logical place to break AB is after Rhydon and Zapdos.

    In that way it basically says "You probably need to have at least one team using each >= A pokemon". I mean unless you really know what you are doing, but in that case you shouldnt really care about anyone elses tierlist.

    Then B works out as "These pokemon are great, but if you dont like them you could just never ever use them and youll be fine".

    Then I agree with squashing B and C together. I mean does anyone really care if Slowbro is better overall than Jynx? Would you be doing anyone trying to learn the game a disservice by advocating either position?

    Also not sure if I have mentioned this in this thread yet, but Tauros should be in a tier by itself. Tauros is the one pokemon that you just never drop if you are actually trying to do everything you can to win. Anything else can go, but if you arent using Tauros, you have either made a mistake or a conscious decision to handicap yourself.
     
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  33. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    I agree with this. Playing gen 1 extensively lately has led me to disregard the whole big 4 idea. At most you can make an argument for a big 2 in my opinion (tauros and chansey) but even then chansey is debatable. The only poke not debatable is tauros. I will disagree however that the only reason you wouldn't use tauros is for handicap or a mistake. A creative team that throws your opponent off is a huge advantage. I've made plenty of teams without tauros that have have performed well. And you can make the case that I was handicapping myself and would have won just as well with tauros, but I believe that bringing the unexpected is an advantage that throws your opponents game plan off and puts them out of their comfort zone. So not bringing tauros is actually a legitimate tactic in my mind.
     
  34. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Thanks Enigami for implementing changes, sorry if I was a bit forceful in how I expressed it, I was getting frustrated lol

    Roostur, no-one's saying that you have to bring all members of the big 4 when they describe it as such. It's more that these pokemon just happen to be on 90% of serious teams, not that they're required.

    I disagree with splitting after Don/Zap. The whole reasoning of "you need at least one team with all of these threats" doesn't reflect their viability. Whether or not you're susceptible to counterteaming has no bearing on an individual pokemon's merits.

    Also I agree that Tauros is the only truly indispensible member of the big 4, as I don't believe there's any replacement that can justify the loss of value, and I would rather scrap a team than exclude Tauros. However, I don't think that there's an entire rank of difference between the other members of the big 4 and Tauros, just because Lax, Chans, and to a lesser extent Egg, are themselves not that far off must-pick status.
     
  35. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Can someone give me a summary of aerodactyl? He looks interesting on paper. Where does he fail and what are his strengths?
     
  36. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Aerodactyl (Pokémon)/Generation I learnset - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

    - 3 STAB moves; two are charge-turn moves and the third is 35 BP
    - Coverage consists of Normal moves and Fire Blast
    - Only major statuses available are Poison via Toxic and Burn via Fire Blast
    - Only minor statuses available are Confusion via Supersonic (55% accuracy) and Flinch via Bite (only 10% in RBY)
    - Only setup of note is Reflect/Rest
    - Weak to Ice (and Electric, but that's less of an issue).
     
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  37. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Why is rest/reflect a notable set up? What does it accomplish?
     
  38. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Reflect/Rest is just generically a decent setup in RBY. Reflect protects you while you Rest (and lasts until switch-out in RBY). Snorlax sometimes uses it, Alakazam and Chansey often run Reflect/Recover and Reflect/Softboiled respectively, and there are a few Waters and pseudo-Waters that can use it (e.g. Slowbro, Articuno). It's generally worthy of note on most things that get Reflect, although most of the OU Pokemon have wide movepools and thus better things to do.

    It's not really a great fit for Aerodactyl due to the gaping special weaknesses, but it does wall Lax that don't run a special move and Aerodactyl's movepool is pretty barren so it's not the worst idea imaginable.
     
  39. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    I’m looking at his move pool and stats and from the looks of it, it seems as if he is just meant to use his high speed and attack to spam hyper beam, sky attack, or double edge. That awful special is so unfortunate.
     
  40. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Aerodactyl's role used to be walling PhysLax, but with ReflectIB Lax's popularity Aero's niche has just about entirely been taken over by Gengar and Porygon. It does much better in low tiers where it can wall stuff like Charizard, Fearow and itself, and its limited offense is remedied by the lack of instant recovery (outside of Staryu) past 2U/UU.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
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  41. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    What porygon move set do you use? His move pool looks like it has potential.
     
  42. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Ice Beam / Hyper Beam / Thunder Wave / Recover is what I normally use. Pory's moveset is great, but its stats aren't. It's a slower Chansey without enormous Special bulk, with a decent Attack stat (+ Sharpen) being the only thing Chansey lacks. Its purpose is to keep Snorlax from gaining momentum (unless Lax has Amnesia) while letting Chansey take paralysis comfortably, and since it's usually avoiding status like the plague, dealing with Tauros in the endgame. It also can wall Gengar once Sleep Clause is active without risking your Chansey, and if Exeggutor doesn't carry Stun Spore, Porygon can technically switch into and beat Eggy as long as it doesn't suffer Psychic drops or crits, and has > 50% chance to survive Eggy's Explosion at full health. Using Pory as a switch in to Eggy is not a good idea though especially if Eggy isn't paralyzed.

    Thunderbolt, Tri Attack, Reflect, Flash, and Sharpen are Porygon's other options to explore, but IB + HB I think is Pory's best set.
     
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