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RBY OU / 1U (OverUsed) Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Enigami, Feb 18, 2015.

  1. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    I think it's time for some spring cleaning
    [​IMG] F > G - I've tried to make it work. It doesn't. Really, the only thing Muk truly has is boom and there's 5 much more viable boomers ahead of it for boom teams (Snorlax, Exeggutor, Golem, Gengar, Cloyster)
    [​IMG] F > G - Counter is literally the only thing this has over Clefable, an already niche mon. Let's drop it already.
    [​IMG] G > F - Definitely has lots of problems, but with the right matchup and an opportunity to meditate I think it could be quite scary. (+1 HJK vs. Tauros -- ~45% OHKO)
     
  2. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I agree with the above. If we're tinkering with F/G ranks I reckon Electrode could possibly move down as well.

    I still support Hypno->E. While I'm at it, is Kingler really that much better than the other SDers? I haven't seen or used one for a looooong time so idk

    I still think A- should drop to B, and B to C. A- is a very clear step below A+, and that gap is far more distinct than that between C and B. As for B and C, you can argue that literally any pokemon in B belongs in C, and based on past discussions I think the only member of B that hasn't been argued as being bad is Jynx (at least, not to the extent of the others). Meanwhile all of C rank except for Dragonite has been argued to belong in B, and tbh Bel and Cloy are capable of posing enormous threats, albeit inconsistently, so I think those arguments are at least plausible.
     
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  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Hitmonlee to F, definitely. I would even be open to moving it up to E. Muk down to G, sure. This isn't the first time people have called for Tuff to G and it's not like anything has changed for the better for it, might as well move it to G.

    I think I agree with Hypno to E, the more I've thought about it the less it seems to offer in practice. That being said it matches up decently vs Egg leads which are making something of a return, so maybe someone could make the case that it's D-rank worthy in this meta. Definitely open to hearing arguments on Kingler... Zapdos and Starmie continue to be problems for it and are of course very common in the current meta. It's a mon that can work but I think Kingler to E is an option.

    tl;dr:
    moving Hitmonlee to F, suggested moving it to E
    moving Muk and Tuff down to G
    supportive of but would like more discussion about Kingler/Hypno to E
     
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  4. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I think Omastar should be at least F-worthy. Offensively it's similar but a little worse than Articuno, but defensively it does some different things.

    It also 2HKOs Tauros & 3HKOs Lax while resisting Normal & Ice
     
  5. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    I would say no except that Body Slam + Ice Beam ReflectLax seems to be a common set which Omastar's typing is perfect for. Outside that, Articuno's lack of EQ weakness makes it much better suited to taking on EQLax and Tauros. The Hyper Beam/Explosion resistances are neat though if you can get the predictions right.
     
  6. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I mean yea it's kinda like a worse articuno that can absorb Hyper Beams very well. I think that's at least F worthy tho. Does anyone think it's worth E?
     
  7. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    [​IMG] Unranked > F, let's get this implemented on the front page. Tanking Tauros' Hyper Beam and responding with a Hydro Pump that puts it in Hyper Beam range of your Tauros, plus resisting the now common Slam/IB Reflect Lax seems like it's worth atleast something.

    [​IMG] E > D, been wanting to do this for a while. I feel it's consistent and effective enough that it fits alongside the D ranks (I think Sceptross will back me up here), and in my opinion it's a step above everything else sitting in E.
     
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  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I'll move Oma from G to F. Want more opinions on pory E -> D but I'm personally pretty neutral on it. It does seem to put in work consistently
     
  9. j2dahop

    j2dahop Member

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    I'd like to propose an upward move for Raticate. I thought about this theoretically, and think I found a niche for it to be a menace or outright beat reflectlax. I haven't battled in about a year so please be gentle if my knowledge of the reflect/rest mechanics is incorrect.

    I probably should have researched this before delving into the strategy, but everything that follows is contingent upon super fang working normally through reflect.

    Moves to note:
    Super fang does 50% remaining HP.
    Rat Bslam does 20% to 23.7% to Snorlax
    Rat H Beam does 35.1% to 41.4% to Snorlax
    Snorlax bslam 43.1% - 50.7% has a 2.4% chance to 2hko. So 97.6% of the time, it's a three turn battle.
    Snorlax EQ 33.5% - 39.6%
    Snorlax Ice beam 25.2% - 29.7%
    Snorlax Hbeam 75.7% to 89.1%

    Given that the two most common sets of reflectlax are:
    bslam, eq, reflect, rest
    and
    bslam, ice beam, reflect, rest

    Raticate has a niche to beat Snorlax sets that drop Hbeam.

    Super fang to 50% + Bslam + hbeam always beats snorlax if no reflect is up. Raticate outspeeds lax, and doesn't have to worry about bslam para from lax. This wins 97.6% of the time against reflectlax sets without hbeam.

    If reflect is already up, ideally Rat comes in during the turn Reflectlax uses rest.
    Turn 1: Raticate can then tail whip to put Reflectlax at +1 defense, meanwhile Lax wastes one sleep turn.
    Turn 2: Rat then super fangs to 50%, as Lax wakes up.
    Turn 3: Rat super fangs to 25%, Lax should rest. If lax doesn't rest, rat eats a bslam 43.1 - 50.7%
    Turn 4: Rat Hyper beams +1 Reflectlax which does 23.9 - 28.1% or 71.8% chance to finish off Lax.

    If, Lax rests on turn 3, Rat will Superfang +1Lax down to 50% as lax burns one sleep turn. Rat will superfang +1Lax down to 25% as +1Lax wakes up. Hbeam will then have a 71.8% chance to finish the job once more.

    In the case where reflect is already up, and the rest from Reflectlax is not predicted:
    Turn 1: Rat enters as Lax burns its first sleep turn.
    Turn 2: Rat superfangs reflectlax down to 50%, Reflectlax wakes up.
    Turn 3:Rat superfangs reflectlax down to 25%, reflectlax uses body slam and deals 43.1 - 50.7% to Rat.
    Turn 4: Rat uses tail whip and reflectlax is now +1Lax. +1Lax now rests, and is forced to switch out or potentially lose over the next three turns. In which case, you will hit something switching in with a super fang, dealing up to 50% damage.
    If +1Lax stays in, it's Super fang, super fang (+1Lax wakes up), Hbeam for a 71.8% chance of beating +1Lax.

    Finally, if in a pinch, Rat can switch into a bslam and eat 43.1% to 50.7% damage. Then on the next turn Rat uses superfang. If lax stays in, fang does 50% the remaining HP, while reflectlax likely bslams you. Rat will have a 97.6% chance to live, and if so you can superfang again, before dying to any move lax uses.
    Reflectlax will now be at 25% HP:
    Eggy Psychic 28.2 - 33.4
    Zam Psychic 30.2 - 35.5
    Starmie Psychic 24.2 - 28.6 84.6% chance to OHKO 25% Reflectlax
    Lapras Blizzard 31.3 - 36.9
    Zap Tbolt 29.8 - 35.1

    Unfortunately without crits, Tauros, Chansey, Blizzbolt Starmie, Gengar and any non stab special moves will likely not finish the job.

    Just to be clear, the set for Raticate I had in mind while writing this was:
    Super Fang
    Body Slam
    Hyper Beam
    Tail Whip

    It'll get walled hard by nonlead Gengar. However, I think the popularity of reflectlax is greater than that of nonlead Gar. If your opponent leads with Gar, you'll know immediately upon the match starting and formulate a plan to use the rest of your team to deal with Gengar while your Rat waits to counter Non Hbeam Lax.
    It won't do great against the rocks either, but if Rat is unparalyzed you can at least eat 50% HP from them which leaves them in Tauros Blizzard Range 53 - 62.4% on Rhydon. 54.8 to 64.4% on Golem.

    Finally, if you don't want to reveal tail whip as the final move, you can attempt to crit through the 25% reflectlax with body slam. Rat's crit rate is 18.95% which is higher than Jynx, but a hair lower than Zapdos.

    Again, please be gentle if this proposal is way off. I haven't battled in quite some time and was thinking theoretically about ways to counter reflectlax.

    **Edit: I forgot to mention that recover users can easily stall you. Rat will need some para support, or throw out some body slams for the likes of Starmie and Zam. Chansey should be fairly easy to paralyze with team support.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  10. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Turn 1: Raticate can then tail whip to put Reflectlax at +1 defense, meanwhile Lax wastes one sleep turn.
    Turn 2: Rat then super fangs to 50%, as Lax wakes up.
    Turn 3: Rat super fangs to 25%, Lax should rest. If lax doesn't rest, rat eats a bslam 43.1 - 50.7%
    Turn 4: Rat Hyper beams +1 Reflectlax which does 23.9 - 28.1% or 71.8% chance to finish off Lax.

    Or Turn 4: Snorlax player switches in Rhydon on the Hyper Beam and mops up Raticate while it recharges (Lax Body Slam + Rhydon EQ = KO), or literally anything else that can take the Hyper Beam and cripple or finish Rat off.

    This is just one example of how this can go wrong.

    Disagree very much with Rat moving up based purely on a theoretical niche that is dependent on everything going perfect right up to the end scenario, and can still lose it all to the opponent predicting the Hyper Beam.

    Not to mention if you want to dedicate a slot to screwing over Lax, you can bring Porygon instead to reliably and completely shut down all non-Amnesia Laxes.

    Your disclaimer about not having battled in a year and not being sure about Reflect/Rest mechanics does nothing to help your case. Not having used this Raticate set at all was bad enough. You want to put a Pokemon at the same level as Moltres, Articuno and Persian, with no testing, out of date meta knowledge and uncertainty of mechanics critical to your nomination that could easily have been confirmed by just playtesting the scenario. Before making any nominations involving D rank or above, I would strongly suggest actually playtesting with the Pokemon in question in major RBY tournaments (if available for the tier in question, play on ladder first so you can see if there's any merit to your idea to begin with) so you can be sure it can be effective against experienced players.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
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  11. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    This is a cool idea, j2dahop. I have to agree with Enigami though, that this does not make Raticate D rank necessarily, since it is rather specific. Still, Super Fang is nothing to laugh at and probably a bit forgotten among RBY players these days.

    About that part:
    You act like Rat did not accomplish anything. First off, not every team has a Rhydon. Sure there are other Pokemon that could soak the Hyper Beam (Lapras, Exeggutor, Starmie, Slowbro, Zapdos?, though I'm not sure you want to risk your Starmie on that cause it can die to a crit...). But basically any other Pokemon that switches into the prdicted Hyper Beam eats a STAB Hyper Beam. That hurs for all I know... It was not the plan the Rat user had in mind, but it's also not the end of the world. Especially, and that is the important part, because Raticate left Snorlax at 25% when that "Hyper Beam soaking" happens. In my book that is definitley getting some very decent value out of your Raticate, and that is even the "worst case", not even bad...
    (not to mention that you could also predict your opponent to switch the 25% +1 Lax out and nail the switch with a Super Fang... 25% HBeam-less Lax is not immediately threatening to KO Raticate even it it took a slam already, so worst case he Rests again, which does not exatcly gain him anything considering the next Super Fang is coming)
    The point being: It's not like the opponent risks nothing by switching out. Also Rat might not have revealed the full set in this scenario yet. Sure, you might expect Body Slam, but for all you know he might still have the Blizzard...

    Still, probably too specific for D rank as of now I guess. But it got me thinking to try out some Super Fang shenanigans, so that I can speak from experience with it next time ;]
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
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  12. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    D rank includes pokemon that are more consistent than Raticate.

    Kangashkan, Dodrio, Raticate and maybe Clefable are clearly above the other E ranked (oh, and Porygon is normal-typed with Recover…).
    Also, Kingler is too high due to historical reasons more than anything.

    Gengar won’t wall Raticate, because Super Fang hits it; Raticate should be using Blizzard (or at least Bubblebeam) though.
    You don’t need to use Tail Whip, Raticate Super Fang ReflectLax twice and goes for the crit.
    Unfofortunately, Super Fang is 90% accurate and all of Raticate’s stats definitely suck – including speed, that can’t even match Zapdos’.
    I’ve been laddering with it recently at times, and it’s pretty bad: you really want to keep it fresh (and I mean HP too) and to use it against pokemon that your opponent can’t afford to lose.

    On a different note, I don’t think that adding Porygon to your team can be compared to using Raticate, which aims to get a KO/permanent damage.
    Getting Hyper Beam predicted may be not that bad, missing Super Fangs or having to deal with stronger and/or faster threats is.
     
  13. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    My point Lusch isn't that Raticate did nothing, but that the end result, even when things work, can be that ReflectLax is still alive and finds an opportunity to Rest and set up again later. This isn't the RBY discussion thread, this is RBY VR thread and j2dahop was asking for Raticate to rise based nothing but a shaky theory that hadn't even been put into practice even on ladder, and the only players that seem to have actually used Raticate are not enthused by it. It's worse that the first thing that came into mind is that Lapras or even the D Legendary Birds do a better job than Raticate at beating and scaring out ReflectLax, as their attacks are outright 3HKOs not reliant on Tail Whip and Hyper Beam or a crit. Now I know you'll play devil's advocate and bring up that Super Fang threatens everything while Blizzard/Fire Blast has switch-ins, and you're right. But first it needs to be proven that having that threat of Super Fang makes up for all of Raticate's other shortcomings.

    marcoasd, agreed with Kingler needing to drop, I've never been impressed with it and feel like it's on the lower end of viable SD sweepers. I dunno about those E Normals being clearly above the others though (ESPECIALLY garbadrio), I'd use Flareon and Pinsir before some of them. Stuff like Nidos and Gyara (and Dodrio) are admittedly mediocre though.

    [​IMG] B -> C
    [​IMG] D -> E
    [​IMG] D -> E

    [​IMG] E -> D
    [​IMG] E -> D
    [​IMG] E -> D
    [​IMG] F -> E
    [​IMG] E -> D

    Gonna quick bring back up some of the current discussion points, thoughts?
    Gengar B>C - Unsure, Gengar isn't seen as much recently, but there's a pretty big falloff from A-B anyway and the other B's (except maybe Jynx) feel like they're in a similar situation.
    Hypno D>E - Abstain, would agree but prevalence of Starmie/Alakazam leads may yield some value to Hypno as a sleep lead, need to see more.
    Kingler D>E - Agree
    Kangaskhan E>D - Abstain, need to see it more.
    Pinsir E>D - Agree, second best SD sweeper after Victreebel
    Sandslash E>D - Abstain, feel like it's too slow and being 2HKO'd (or crit OHKO'd) by Tauros' Blizzard without being able to threaten sleep or paralysis like Victreebel is a serious issue.
    Hitmonlee F>E - Disagree, feel like F is plenty high as it is and would need to have more games where it puts in work to feel deserving of a rise.
    Porygon E>D - Agree, obviously. Unlike the other E Ranks, Porygon almost always puts in work, even if that work is usually just negating any non-AmnesiaLax momentum (which in itself is pretty neat).
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  14. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Yeah, Dodrio is garbage and very close to Raticate - still, they fit a clear role which is early/midgame threat - basically, you keep Snorlax fresh and try to spread damage.
    On the other hand, I don't know what something like Nidoking is supposed to do exactly - there are better mixed sweepers and counters for Zapdos.
    There's no way I'm picking Pinsir or even more Flareon over them. They're fast, they're using STAB Body Slam and they're immune to paraslams (and in most cases, no weaknessses).

    The comparison between Dodrio and Raticate is interesting: first of all, they should be switching in on a predicted Recover/Softboiled coming from para'd opponents (Alakazam lead might be the favourite target - unfortunately Starmie's the better option nowdays...).
    My main point is that not only Dodrio attacks with Body Slam (it Drill Pecks Egg or just plays around Counter) so it can score CHs and paras - it scares things out (or gives you the chance to steal KOs) when Raticate is just asking your opponent to click TWave and screw you up.
    For this very simple reason (over speed-tying Zapdos, having an hard counter, Super Fang misses and even BeamBolt weakness) , I'd say that Dodrio is better than Raticate.

    Kangaskhan is better than both of them and Persian is most likely the first pick for that category, still the thing they have in common is that they all have a better typing and role than E-ranked pokemon (which are pokemon that lack the combination of stats and movesets to keep up with the likes of Articuno and Moltres).

    Sandslash is nowhere near D good.
    I don't know much about Hypno, it's a 4MSS (needs Rest, it gets sponged) which depends on your ability to use Rest without getting predicted.
    I'm not a fan of Porygon to D because that rank includes pokemon that can win games; Porygon's offense against a para'd Reflect Chansey is nothing more than PPstall (rule of thumb: 6th slots are meant to hit) and it's a 0 when para'd - it's a great gimmick nonetheless, and I still think that a rank between D and E is needed and Porygon fits it.
    I'd put Pinsir there too, it's a bit worse than Normal-Types and a lot worse than D ones.

    Maybe drop Alakazam to A- (being a worse lead than Starmie might depend on trends too, but being pretty disappointing of a 6th is consolidated), make A- become B, make B become C and include Wrappers, D stays D, and split E in +/-?
    (Starmie and Zapdos clearly have the win rate necessary to be considered at the top of RBY OU after S4).
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
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  15. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Enigami mentioned Gyarados being bad, and having used it extensively not too long ago I can vouch that it's total ass. I consider it totally unviable, but idk why I didn't make a post about it, maybe I just suspected I was holding a relatively strong opinion(???). I've never had such a strong feeling that I was actively handicapping myself by running something though. Gyara to F imo.

    Regarding other stuff Enigami mentioned, wholeheartedly support Hypno to E, while I also think all the SDers should be in E- Kingler is far from exceptional imo, I think its high ranking is because it's traditionally been overrated. Disagree with Pory rising (Marco covered this well imo), Lee I have no opinion on, Gar should drop and I think Khan could rise, but I'm honestly not all that fussed with it being in E either. The main things are that Hypno and Kingler should drop (I'll touch on Gar later in this post)

    Agree on the Nidos, I just don't see why they'd be run. Then again, I've never actually used them, nor seen them in the hands of someone skilled at the game.

    This last paragraph from Marcoasd I think is really on the money. I'm hesitant to rank Zam lower than Zap, but the logic's there tbh. Star is just more useful outside of the lead role, while Zam's traditionally been the best lead... except Star's better than Zam at that now as well (Marco already wrote an extensive post about this lol), which takes a huge chunk out of Zam's niche. That said, if we follow through on the other thing Marco suggests, I'd still not feel comfortable with Zam out of A tier.

    The bigger point from that paragraph is that everything should be shifted down. I said this before when there was a whole bunch of debate about where things like Golem, Victreebel and Cloyster sit. I think there's a very significant difference between A+ and A-, and tbh I don't think any of A- is without significant flaws. And also things are just tidier with them in B lol. As for B, the only mon that hasn't been trashed at some point by an elite player is Jynx (if any exception is to be made when moving B to C it should be Jynx), and I feel such sentiment is certainly well-founded. Meanwhile, the pokemon in C I think are appropriately ranked. I can argue more on the specifics, the only reason I haven't in this post is that it makes for a tldr when proposing such sweeping changes

    Everything in A- => B
    Everything in B => C

    wow I agreed with Marco for once =P
     
  16. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Alakazam to B feels really weird because it's been considered the best lead for a long while (and a bit overrated as a 6th for some years), but it's supported by significant stats.
    WCOP brought some objective data for many pokemon making hierarchies clear, I think it's all about drawing lines between tiers right now.
    Zam might be A again at some point, while other A-/B pokemon are unlikely to become; in the current state they're just as efficient though, if not even more.

    A lot of players trashed Jynx, it doesn't get talked because Jynx is not overrated and the discussion for best lead has been involving Alakazam and Starmie for a while; its usage is low so the win rate is not even statistically significant and it's unimpressive anyway.
    We all know what it does, it's RNG-based etc.
    You could argue Jynx as possibly better than C because that rank would include pokemon (like Dragonite and currently B-ranked Jolteon) that are way more unreliable (rule of thumb: no Explosion nor sleep-inducing moves for them), so I think it would be more correct to drop them instead.
     
  17. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    Can't see the problem Enigami. I agreed with you on the key part which is that Raticate should not rise to D rank. All I said is that even if you don't kill the Lax with your Rat, you leave it at 25 and chunk something else (possible even more than that if prediction luck is on your side). That is not even bad, even though the target of killing ReflectLax was not achieved.

    On all the other stuff:
    Is everybody going crazy? Alakazam should stay right where it is!! I don't get why it should be bad as a 6th now all of a sudden. It is still that catch-all matchup neutral Pokemon it always was in that position. Not to mention with Self Destruct on Snorlax being less common than it once was, that helps ReflectZam immensely as well. Your opponent might not be careful to play around last mon Zam currently and could throw out his Eggy with a boom etc. Good luck fighting reflectZam when it gets revealed, you're gonna need it with your Rhydon or Lapras Team... Not that this is too huge, but I for what it's worth have seen more Victreebel running around lately (no wonder, Rhydon and Lapras 6th are super common), also something that Alakazam 6th enjoys very much. Also Lead Alakazam is still top. Starmie might be the No.1 at the moment, but Zam is still hard to kill with those Starmie Lead teams. Wait until people actually react to all the Starmies and drop D-E on Eggy in favour of MD again. You'll wish for that Alakazam...
    So yea, obviously my opinion, but Zam has absolutely no place in A- let alone B (holy crap).

    If anything should drop from A+ rank down to A- (which I suggest we keep), it is Zapdos. Rhydon is super common right now! (At least from what I can see, which might of course differ from what you do.)

    A Rank should look like this imo:
    A+ Alakazam, Starmie
    A- Lapras, Rhydon, Zapdos

    Yes, I dropped Slowbro from that list. Yes, it can be a real danger to face, but most of the time, when it does pop up occasionally, you'll just manage it somehow. Also we all know the Paralysis lead thingy leading to Sleep Clause usually not being activated so Bro is always checked by Eggy (unless you run an Ice move). It can drop to B Rank.

    First conclusion: Alakazam to stay in A+, Zapdos to A-, Slowbro to B.

    Which brings me to B Rank... I think we're all too fast here again. I'm doing this Pokemon by Pokemon.

    Jynx belongs in that rank. I don't see how you could make the argument that it does not. If you look solely at the lead match-ups it currently gets (I know this is only a small part to consider when evaluating Jynx as a whole), you see Starmie, Alakazam and even Exeggutor at times. Gengar basically is not seen anymore these days. Hell, we're at a point where you can somehow realistically afford to run Chansey lead. It's actually insane. It could not be better in that regard for Jynx.

    Gengar is a weird case. What it does in the meta changed and people (including myself) have not really immersed that into their habits yet. It disappeared from the lead slot because why would you lead it if the chance of getting the match-up you want with it (something slower without the threat of a crit Psychic killing you) just is that rare? Still, Gengar is at a point in the meta, where you can seriously consider running it outside the lead position. Late Hypnosis can be cool (we all know it from Lapras' Sing) and people drop EQ on their Normals (yes even Tauros these days) more and more. Yes there are Psychic types, especially Eyeggutor and Alakazam plus Chansey that stop Gengar, but if your plan is removing those without giving up your Eggy or something, Boom on Gar is there and quite likely to hit those. Not great, I know, but still, Gengar is probably better than it ever has been due to metagame trends (at least outside the lead position). Also it still, as it always has, posseses that unique typing that just prevents random stuff from causing you issues (like Victreebel, Dragonite, Persian, Pinsir, Hitmonlee, Kingler, Venusaur [all at least to some extent]). I always defended Gengar when it came to dropping it to C because of those traits.
    Despite what i just said about it, I would not fight the fight for Gengar in B. I'm not ready to let it fall just yet, because I think we need to see it more outside the lead position. Gengar has always been (and needs to stay) and influential Pokemon despite not being top notch. But if others think it should fall, so be it...

    Golem is an easy one. I have always been on the Rhydon side, even when most considered Golem superior. Still I think Golem is underused at the moment. It is not completely outclassed, Explosion is worth a ton and I just don't think it's that much worse than Rhydon. I would leave it in B also to be quite honest.

    Jolteon has its place in OU. Being faster than Alakazam, Starmie and Tauros is great, posing an actual threat to Starmie is also nice. And critting the shit out of Exeggutor Snorlax or Chansey can be really dangerous. Still, this one I see falling to C.

    Second conclusion: Jynx and Golem to stay in B, Gengar B or C is fine, Jolteon to C

    Now quickly to the discussion points for the lower part of the rankings:

    I agree with Kingler and Hypno dropping.

    Pinsir and Sandslash should not rise to D imo. As much as I like Sandslash, it is just not good enough. The reason for that being the poor match-up vs Stamie and especially Tauros. The bull wins vs Sandslash even if they are both at full HP and Sandslash already at +2. That just does not cut it. Pinsir I'm not that sure about, but just looking at Articuno and Moltres next to it makes me think it does not belong in D.
    My personal rule of thumb: If a Pokemon does not have some kind of favourable match-up vs Tauros, while not filling an important role in the metagame (such as the Rocks and Gengar or Dragonite or Jynx (basically you can make a point for all those high ranked Pokemon that lose to Tauros to fill an important role in the meta...)) it cannot be ranked higher than E. If we look at the D ranked mons, the birds have a great shot at just winnign 1v1 vs Tauros. Persian cannot claim that but it can actually threaten a revenge kill etc...

    As for Kangaskhan, I can see it rising, even though I am not convinced... The Tauros match-up is not great. Every chance you'd have with Counter is negated by the fact that Tauros can actually Blizzard you and do more damage (it risks a miss though). As an early game physical punisher I guess it can do work since unlike Dodiro (which should absolutely stay in E, btw) it does not have a complete save switch in to soak momentum. Still, Being cleanly 2HKOed by Zam while habing to go for Hyper Beam most of the time to secure the 2HKO herself... ehhh I dont know, does not quite cut it in my eyes. Not complately opposed to a rise, but voting E for now.

    Regarding Hitmonlee I'm probably biased. I liked that Kicker ever since I played the game on my game boy. Just look at that bad ass ;P. I've also written an Analysis of it etc... The main point is that Hitmonlee (like Machamp) has a very clear cut niche in the meta. You can chose it over Machamp because of the way more reliable and better STAB it has. In the right scenario Hitmonlee can be really dangerous. And I think that scenario is not even that rare in the current meta. Yes Zapdos is an L and if there is a Psychic as 6th you're also screwed, but that is not too too common t the moment (at least from my feeling). Sleeping Laxes make entry easier than ever... I can see it in E, but will not fight for it if other don't.

    Porygon. Marco said something about 6th mons being there to hit etc. i can agree with that. Still I don't think we should evaluate Porygon as a classical 6th. I don't think you go lead big4 Porygon... You have to build around it to make it shine. Naturally this will be a defensive build, but I can see it being one that could be really hard to break for a standard team. I get the Snorlax sponging niche, but what exactly do you do if the opponent is IceLax? Do you play the freeze war with Pory? I have built something with Pory lately and my Pory got frozen by a Snorlax, so there's that... Not convinced yet, maybe Enigami, who played this a lot can tell how to really make Porygon work. At the moment, I only see it in E.

    Third conclusion: Kingler and Hypno to E, Pinsir, Sandslash, Kangaskhan and Porygon to stay in E, Hitmonlee to rise to E

     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  18. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    In a few lines, you missed a couple things:
    1) we're talking about shifting everything aka cancelling the A+/a- split
    2) WCOP usage/win rate stats, where Alakazam suffered a beating and Zapdos shined in spite of Rhydon's usage

    Anyway, Double Edge is a move that hits multiple targets while Mega Drain is specific and Egg can beat Starmie with Psychic DE too.
    So, DE is the go-to move and MD the counterpick (not the other way around) in a metagame where all of Starmie, Alakazam and Jynx exist.
     
  19. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    No, I got that. I am just opposed to it. I think the gap between A- (minus Slowbro at this point I feel) and B is bigger than people make it out to be... I am in favour of keeping A+ and A- and I recommend A+ to consist of Alakazam and Starmie, while A- should consist of Lapras, Rhydon and Zapdos.
    This just represents the state of RBY OU best I feel. Those 5 A-ranked Pokemon are the ones you will see on typical RBY OU teams along with the S4 of course. While each of them can be used in the 6th slot position (okay, maybe Alakazam less effectively than the others, which I don't buy just yet tbh), Zam and Starmie can be effectively used as a lead, while the others cannot. Thus they should be in A+ and the others (being the bread and butter of RBY OU like described) in A-.
    I, in fact, believe this to be a very elegant and reasonable ranking.

    On the counter argument that "WCoP showed [...] " :
    You look at the recent SPL stats and it is the other way around (talking about Alakazam's and Zapdos' win rate). And the sample size was twice as big as for WCoP. Now I'm not saying WCoP stats are incorrect or anything, but it's just not significant enough to be used to argue that Zapdos should be higher ranked than Alakazam. Those usage stats and winrates fluctuate. Very well might Alakazam have a higher win rate than Zapdos again next SPL...

    About your Double Edge vs Mega Drain point, I agree with you. Mega Drain is the counterpick. But if Starmie is apparently so much better and thus more common than Alakazam (and Jynx, lol), then there's plenty of reason to go for said counterpick in an increasing amount of cases. And that will obviously affect viability of both Zam and Starmie. After all it is always a process of adaptation with an "equilibrium usage" of both options. And I just think we are currently not in equilibrium, but D-E is used more and MD less than that. People answered with increasing Starmie usage, it is (or in an ideal meta it should be) a matter of time when MD becomes more common than it "should be", and it's gonna converge to the equilibrium ratio of D-E vs MD.
    So on the way, there might be spikes of increasing or decreasing viability of the Pokemon that benefits or suffers from the more common move relative to equilibrium usage (in this case, seemingly a decrease in Zam-viability / increase in Starmie-viability), but, that's at least the way I see it, after all Alakazam and Starmie are on the same level in terms of viability in RBY OU and thus there is no reason to seperate them in the rankings, reacting to a temporary thing..
     
  20. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Wow, didn't expect to spark this much discussion. Lots of good stuff here.

    Regarding Porygon, I agree with leaving it where it is for now. Considering marcoasd's remarks about it being a 6th when I feel it's best on non-standard teams, it's probable that high level players haven't had enough experience with or against it to make an accurate assessment of whether it deserves a higher rank at this time. Especially if we're going to do a downward push on the rankings (like pushing less viable stuff like Gyara, Nidos, etc. down to F), which is something I was considering bringing up. Also, Lusch, if beating Tauros 1v1 is a measurement of D rank... Porygon beats it 1v1 similar to fresh Chansey (and Porygon should be at 100% if you're playing Porygon right), especially if it carries Reflect. Just saying ;)

    The way I play it, Porygon is built around a Starmie/Chansey/Porygon/Rhydon archetype rather than S4, and I've had an even winrate with it so far. Still working out the best usage of the last 2 slots, generally though they're focused on helping with Rhydon and Tauros, and relieving Psychic pressure if there's room. Fortunately the team isn't exactly inviting to them either, as the whole core can hit Rhydon super effectively and most of them are packing T-Wave, which makes Porygon and unpara'd Chansey capable of walling Tauros out if it gets paralyzed. Porygon vs. IceLax admittedly boils down to a freeze war, though one big difference compared to other freeze wars is that after taking 5 turns of taking Ice Beams, Snorlax must Rest to avoid being KO'd which can be exploited.

    Considering the apparent support for pushing ranks down... something like this is what most of you are looking for?

    S: Chansey, Exeggutor, Snorlax, Tauros
    A+: Alakazam, Starmie
    A-: Rhydon, Zapdos
    B: Lapras, Slowbro
    -either B or C-: Jynx
    C: Cloyster, Jolteon, Gengar, Golem
    -either C or D-: Dragonite, Victreebel
    D: Articuno, Moltres, Persian
    E: Clefable, Hypno, Kangaskhan, Kingler, Pinsir, Porygon
    -either E or F-: Dodrio, Flareon, Kabutops, Poliwrath, Raticate, Sandslash, Venusaur
    F: Aerodactyl, Charizard, Dugtrio, Electrode, Golduck, Gyarados, Hitmonlee, Machamp, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Ninetales, Omastar, Onix, Raichu, Rapidash, Tentacruel

    F Rank I think is maybe a bit bloated. Only stuff I see myself using in a blue moon is Gyarados, Hitmonlee, Machamp, Nidoqueen, Omastar, Onix (never thought I'd say that about Onix) maybe Raichu, and Rapidash if I can find a good place for it on a ToxicWrap team.

    My personal take:

    S: Chansey, Exeggutor, Snorlax, Tauros
    A+: Alakazam, Starmie
    A-: Rhydon, Zapdos
    B+: Lapras, Jynx, Slowbro
    B-: Cloyster, Jolteon, Gengar, Golem, Victreebel
    C: Articuno, Dragonite, Moltres, Persian, Porygon
    D: Clefable, Flareon, Hypno, Kangaskhan, Kingler, Pinsir, Raticate, Sandslash
    E: Dodrio, Gyarados, Hitmonlee, Kabutops, Machamp, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Poliwrath, Omastar, Onix, Raichu, Rapidash, Venusaur

    This is based more on how later gens rank everything, with S to B+ being amazing to solid mons, B- to C heading more into mediocre mons that can be effective with the right build and matchup, and D to E being gimmicks that usually struggle to win games.

    Starmie vs. Alakazam I think should be same rank, at least for now. Starmie right now is favored, but the meta will likely adapt and rise in the usage of Mega Drain, Victreebel, etc. which will cause Alakazam to rise, which would lead to reduced usage of those things causing Starmie to rise, and so on. Alakazam is still really good. Jynx is just solid enough to hold on to its relative ranking. Dragonite should probably drop. AgiliWrap tends to be a losers game, and while I find Thunder Wave on Dragonite to be quite good, to hit the real targets you really want to hit with it (Tauros, or any other dangerous fast powerhouse) you're still gambling on not getting one-shot. It's a great gimmick enabler though when it works. Porygon at D (C on my list) I know everyone disagrees with, but hey, I've been using it alot in my competitive matches and having a solid winrate with it, so gotta say what I feel it's worth. I think a big part of the problem is treating it as a 6th mon on a standard S4 team, which is probably going to feel underwhelming, as opposed to a key piece of an unorthodox playstyle. I feel like Clefable and Kangaskhan could maybe be higher (Clefable mostly only thanks to Gengar being less common) but I don't have enough experience with them to evaluate them as D (C on my list) level Pokemon. In retrospect I can't recall winning much with Pinsir, so it probably does belong with the other SD mons.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  21. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    We're talking about making it bigger indeed: a full rank, that separates B and C, instead of A- vs B... And moving Alakazam to B would be just the same thing as dropping it to A- because B rank would become C (unless you care about the definitions written next to ranks).

    The rest is ok, we'll always see things like Alakazam on RBY OU teams (I even wrote that on "Rise of Starmie lead"!) Nevertheless, I think it was widely accepted that this thread should reflect trends that have a huge impact on the metagame (just like after major tournaments) - if you are to play a tournament tomorrow you know certain strategies are considered more likely to perform and will enter the tournament with a target on their heads.
    Today, to think that Alakazam is going to have a better win rate than Zapdos is speculation simply because today's (or at least, last major tournament's) equilibrium resulted in certain results that were very clear even though the size was only medium, and reasons were understandable.
    To add more to the specific Alakazam case, both Alakazam and Starmie (to a lesser extent, and it's being saved by its performances as a lead) are way worse as 6th than they were considered a couple years ago, for example - this thread just doesn't reflect this fact that is lasting a bit too much for a trend.
    It would be nice to have some clear explainations on the subject "how often and for which reasons we are going to update these rankings".

    I appreciate the SPL 9 counter-argument though, and as for now I have to admit I don't have an explaination for those stats nor I remembered them.
    For sure this is the age of information, and things change damn quickly: we improved a lot, most of you guys made me understand that DE is the go-to move for Exeggutor and I shared my secrets about playing against Zam lead.
    (Also, on the specific case Stun Spore isn't nearly as necessary as I thought it would be because there's no need for a backup paralysis spreader when you're playing in a world of anti-leads and Reflect Chanseys that won't freeze your own Chansey before it gets TWave off).

    I can see Slowbro going down to the current B rank even though it's clearly a better pokemon than all of B because we're all having a hard time making it work; I still think that someday it will work.
    Lapras is clearly underrated instead, most players use flawed builds and can't play around the Zapdos weakness.
    I see a bunch of Lapras being unrevealed until late game, or that don't include Sing in the moveset; stats are pretty small sample and I put them more on players than Lapras itself.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
  22. Serpico

    Serpico Against all odds ! Member

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    I disagree with splitting A rank into sub-ranks, as I feel like the gap between A+ and A- is simply not as big enough to justify a split. I think that the criteria based on which pokemon are ranked in either of the two ranks are a bit unclear. Alakazam and Starmie seem to be A+ mainly because of their versatility and the importance of leads in modern RBY, while Zapdos is A+ for being the destructive force it is when it doesn't have to face Rhydon. On the other side, Lapras and Rhydon have their own niches as hit&run pokemon and Slowbro can potentially sweep entire teams. So, here are some questions: Considering that Starmie and Alakazam are clearly better leads than 6ths (and also inferior 6ths than most other mons in the A rank), is their versatility such a big thing ? Considering that it can give you one of the worst mu scenarios in RBY, is Zapdos that much better than the other options for 6th ? Is the lead role that much more important than the role of the 6th mon ? The answers to these questions are debatable. What isn't debatable is that the pokemon of a higher rank are supposed to be clearly better/more important for a team than the pokemon of a lower rank. I don't think that's the case for A+ and A- pokemon ; or at least not to the extent that the above argument stands true for pokemon of completely different ranks.

    Last but not least, I think that the most appropriate way to rank pokemon would be role-based rankings. I understand that this thread is more generic and is supposed to give people just a feeling of how good is a mon in the current metagame, but creating role-based ranking would be an awesome addition for people who try to learn a tier.
     
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  23. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    No, versatility used to be the reason why they were A/A+ (at least to me), and that is no more. They're mostly leads, and Starmie's recent performances (combined with better performances as 6th too) are worthy of a higher rank IMO.

    At the moment it is, because Zapdos teams can still beat Rhydon teams in spite of Rhydon being able to beat Zapdos with eyes closed.

    That's not the point I guess: if something is viable for either role, it's viable.
    Anyway, knocking out opposing leads feels like the key to winning more games.

    If you look at recent results (and performances), Starmie and Zapdos are clearly better than any other A; if you consider a year or possibly more, A+- should stay together (not 100% sure about Slowbro)

    We could use both if roles are relevant enough. Which roles have you got in mind? Lead/non-lead?
    Lead, sleeper, paralysis spreader, midgame threat, (mixed) sweeper, setup tank, wrapper, recovery user, Body Slam counter?
     
  24. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    Why only reference SPL and WCOP? What about Master Tournaments, PPL, Cups, etc usage statistics? I know nobody keeps track of them, but it would be good for the site, especially in threads such as this one.
     
  25. Serpico

    Serpico Against all odds ! Member

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    I agree that Starmie and Zapdos perform better than the rest of A at the moment. However, this is something that has to do with the current metagame trends and may change if people adjust their game to counter these pokemon more effectively. On the other hand, unless something groundbreaking happens, S-Ranked pokemon will probably continue to be better than A-Ranked pokemon, A-Ranked pokemon will be better than B-Ranked pokemon etc. The reason I recommended merging A+ and A- is because I don't think that the gap between these sub-ranks is really worth showcasing. If anything, showcasing these differences can give a bit better grasp of the current metagame and its trends to the people learning to play RBY at the moment. I can't argue with that, so I don't really mind the ranks staying as they are ; I just expressed some thoughts.

    The roles I had in mind were a bit more generic. The list I made could probably be adjusted for RBY's needs, but that's how I'd start:
    Lead, Sleep Inducer, Paralysis Spreader, Physical Tanks, Special Tanks, Mixed Tanks, Physical Attackers, Special Attackers, Mixed Attackers, Setup Sweepers (Amnesia, Swords Dance).

    Regarding tournament statistics, you should probably only use them to figure out what is popular usage-wise. From a mathematical standpoint, the sample of the games played in SPL/WCoP is way too small to provide us with any solid conclusions. Increasing the sample's size is essential to get a better idea about its traits, so GGFan's suggestion is towards the right direction. As he said though, nobody keeps track of them (since posting replays is not mandatory) which means that this can only be implemented in the future and won't be able to increase the sample's size enough anytime soon (getting a big enough sample of pokemon games is way harder than you may think). Apart from this, including every RBY tournament's games in the sample comes at the cost of including worse players' games as well. Why is that a problem ? Let's say we're looking at a certain pokemon's winrate ; for example, Zapdos' winrate. The winrate is worth anything only when the games of the side are played in the most optimal way, so that we can ensure that Zapdos' winrate is only determined by its presence in a team and not misplay shenanigans from either side. Chances are that the best players will play optimally more often than the rest of the playerbase, so their games will likely provide more accurate results. Even then, we still can't do anything about luck's effect in the outcome of a game. Considering all the above, I don't believe that we'll be able to get accurate winrates of pokemon anytime soon.
     
  26. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Regarding the "current discussion points", I see no reason Sandslash should be in D. Attack matters more than STAB EQ because non-STAB Hyper Beam is just as powerful. In addition, Ice weakness is worse than Kingler/Kabutops' Electric weakness. Sandslash is bad, and I would use every current D and many Es before it.
     
  27. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Removed SD users from consideration for D and dropped Kingler to E.

    Added Porygon to E>D consideration on the front page, because I can honestly say it's better than the E Ranks by far after extensive use of it and more in line with D Ranks. My Starmie/Rhydon/Chansey/Porygon defensive teams have proven quite consistent with a solid winrate against high level players, to the point it surpasses Moltres and Articuno teams I've used.
     
  28. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    Gengar deserves to stay B, he is the best of B ranks currently.
    About fusing the A rank i say no, there are enormous differences from A+ to A- , also Slowbro should be A- and Lapras+Rhydon A, who thought Slowbro could stay in the same place as them?
     
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  29. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I don't recall anyone suggesting fusing A rank? I agree that there's an enormous difference between A+ and A-, enough for them to be in completely separate ranks, rather than merely in subranks.

    I disagree with all of your other points though. What is your reasoning behind Bro and Gar?
     
  30. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    Just 5 post before yours
    About my reasoning? Slowbro to me is clearly above the b rank by a super long margin, we all know what he does come on, he's a legit top rank last mon, the worst of a rank
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
  31. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    I've officially taken over management of the RBY 1U VR. At the moment, I want to focus on renovating a couple key things: lead rankings, and the letter ranks.

    Tentative lead rankings:
    S Rank: Alakazam, Starmie
    A Rank: Jynx
    B Rank: Exeggutor, Gengar
    C Rank: Jolteon
    D Rank: Chansey, Hypno, Snorlax

    -It was suggested that we should have lead rankings. I don't see the harm in it, they're typically tucked away in spoilers so you don't have to care about them if you don't want to. I've set up tentative rankings, feel free to suggest changes.


    New Letter Ranks:
    S/A/B: unchanged
    C/D: merged
    E: becomes D
    F: becomes E
    G: becomes F

    -I've always felt the RBY 1U VR is out of alignment with all the other VRs and could use a reduction in letter ranks. Following this change, Pokemon ranked C or lower could have their placement revised to better fit the new grading. I very much would like to make this change, but will not do so if the playerbase disagrees with it. Please let me know how you feel about this proposed change.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018 at 1:09 AM
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  32. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    A bit belated, but my bad Troller, overlooked that post.

    I'm not opposed to Dragonite merging with D, Victreebel I think also makes sense (I mean sure, it's a potent threat, but so are some of D rank, and it's not significantly less niche than some of them), however Cloyster I feel is definitely much closer to B rank than D. It gets a lot of defensive value regardless of matchup, while in the right matchup its offensive potential is also significant. Basically, if Starmie didn't exist it would be an easy B rank.

    I also stand by my opinion that A- should be converted to B and B to C. To adapt Enigami's proposal, I think Dnite/Bel would move down to D, while Cloy remains in C. I think most people regard most of the current B as kinda bad, whereas the pokemon in A-, while good, I feel have significant drawbacks that prevent them from being as defining as the threats in A+. Overall there's a considerable gap in viability between the two A subranks, enough that they should be in their own separate ranks. That said, my opinion is becoming increasingly less relevant due to my inactivity (especially no tours) so idk, it's up to you.
     
  33. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    Stated my opinion a couple of times now on this, but just saying, the A- mons are extremely defining in this metagame. They are basically the staple 6th Pokmeon. ( Like I said, in my opinion A+ should be Starmie and Alakazam, while A- should be Zapdos, Rhydon and Lapras, which are the staple filler Pokemon of this metagame.)

    Merge if you want...but then Hypno has to drop one rank. It's not C material. As well as Cloyster needing to rise to B then. Maybe drop Golem and Jolteon to the new C then while we're at it (but I'm not sure). In words:

    S: unchanged
    A+: Alakazam, Starmie
    A-: Lapras, Rhydon, Zapdos
    B: Cloyster, Gengar, Jynx, Slowbro, (Golem, Jolteon)
    C: Articuno, Dragonite, Moltres, Persian, Victreebel, (Golem, Jolteon)

    After that it becomes messy. I woulnd't just rename the ranks while not changing the Pokemon. In my opinion, we don't need to go further than E rank. The new D and E would then be the stuff from current E, (and the "best" from F, but not he whole F), imo. Scratch G Pokemon entirely and take only the "best" out of F rank to form the new D and E. There's no need to rank stuff that really has no use whatsoever, you will never see a Dewgong or some shit in serious RBY.
    However I personally would not wanna evaluate all the "crap" and rank it (for now), like I said, it gets messy.
     
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  34. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I agree that the current A- are staples of the tier. What I disagree with however, is that this precludes them being in B or that they're "extremely defining". To me they're just good pokemon that are used regularly, which is what B tier ought to be. As for the "extremely defining" description, I just don't think they have that kind of impact. To compare them with A+, Starmie and Alakazam define the lead metagame, while Starmie is also one of the best 5ths and non-lead Zam has the potential to take over games. Zap isn't as defining, but it's just an absurdly potent threat, significantly more so than anything in A-. By contrast the only pokemon in A- that can have a similarly dominant impact is Bro, and I don't think I need to elaborate on it dropping since I think you're on board with that idea. Don and Lapras meanwhile, rarely take over games, instead providing a consistent level of performance, while I think the overall presence in the meta is significant, but not as prominent as that of Star/Zam. They're threats you have to account for, but they generally don't change the way you play the game (unless you're running Zap, in which case Don is really important, but this is a rather specific case).

    Again, I think B rank ought to be full of staple pokemon that are seen regularly and are generally good, but not to the same extent that something like A tier is, which is how I see A- rank currently. A tier ought to be for pokemon that still warp the meta, but to a far lesser degree than S. I mean as it currently stands, the rankings go from totally dominant (S)-> mix of good and great pokemon (A)->mostly shit pokemon (B), which I think is a little silly, since it compresses almost everything relevant into two ranks. So yeah, B ought to be for pokemon that are actually good and are reasonably significant presences, just not to the same extent that S/A are. This is also why most of B ought to drop to C (a case can be made for Jynx to remain in B, but I'm fine either way tbh), and C to D (Cloy should remain C tho)
     
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  35. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    I don't see the problem of having all the good pokes in 2 ranks, they should reflect effectiveness, stretching them just for "good looking" sounds pretty bad, is it worth to have Slowbro a whole rank behind Rhydon? Zapdos and Starmie probably deserves better, Alakazam has lost some charm over the time, one bad full para and you are pretty fucked up.

    This is how i see ranks as for today:

    S: big 4
    S-: Starmie, Zapdos
    A+: Alakazam
    A: Lapras, Rhydon
    A-: Slowbro

    There is an abyss from Starmie&Zapdos performances compared to other non-S ranks, it's time to reflect it in the rankings.
    Slowbro is the most underated pokemon today, i lost the count of how many times i won just because the opponent exploded the Exeggutor . He has a whole package of problems indeed but you can't tell me with serious face that he deserves to drop for real to ranks of very shaky stuff like Jynx or Gengar.

    S for super performers, A for great+reliable, simple and clean
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018 at 9:12 PM
  36. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    World Championship #4 Usage/Win stats

    Alakazam
    -Total Usage%: 60.98%
    -Total Win%: 53.25%
    -Lead Usage%: 48.17%
    -Lead Win%: 50.32%

    Starmie
    -Total Usage%: 25.61%
    -Total Win%: 51.19%
    -Lead Usage%: 17.99%
    -Lead Win%: 49.15%

    Zapdos
    -Total Usage%: 28.05%
    -Total Win%: 52.17%


    RBY Invitational #1 Usage/Win stats (at the time of this post)

    Alakazam
    -Total Usage%: 52.14%
    -Total Win%: 50.68%
    -Lead Usage%: 42.86%
    -Lead Win%: 50.00%

    Starmie
    -Total Usage%: 50.00%
    -Total Win%: 55.71%
    -Lead Usage%: 35.71%
    -Lead Win%: 58.00%

    Zapdos
    -Total Usage%: 22.86%
    -Total Win%: 50.00%

    Going by actual statistics at the moment, Alakazam, Starmie and Zapdos are roughly equal consistent performers. If Starmie's current 55+% performance in the invitational continues into future tournaments I could see it being placed above Alakazam and Zapdos, but presently I do not see an objective basis to place Alakazam below Starmie and especially Zapdos. Edit: Also going strictly by statistics, Slowbro has had a 50+% winrate in recent tournaments, which is indicative that it is still a major threat and should not be dropped into B yet.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018 at 5:56 PM
  37. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I'm always sceptical of tournament usage stats because they always have small sample sizes. If they were accompanied by analysis of statistical significance or all tours for which usage is collected were aggregated then they might be more than a curiosity to me.
    I never proposed making Bro a rank below Don- they should both be in B. The reason we should stretch things out over more than two ranks is that by compressing everything the whole rankings become meaningless as we're just grouping everything together and condemning almost all our ranks to irrelevance. It's a stupid thing to do because it defeats the point of ranking them. It also flies in the face of the definitions we have for each rank- would you consider Golem a "strong choice"? Because that's how it's being described in B. Lastly, I'm not suggesting we deviate from ranking things based on efficacy. Don/Lap/Bro belong in B because they aren't anywhere near as effective or influential on the meta as Star/Zap/Zam. I'm not saying they're bad, they just don't belong in the same rank as those 3.

    On the note of definitions, A's definition is way too vague and I feel like B mostly criticises the Pokemon when they shouldn't be considered bad at all (I'm talking generally, I'm not saying the current B ranks aren't arguably bad. That they are is a sign they should move down). S rank I think is spot on in describing threats as dominant to the point where they belong on the overwhelming majority of teams. A should be exceptionally influential/effective, but not quite dominant and not approaching being considered a requirement. B should be for good Pokemon that must be accounted for, but don't have as much influence beyond that.

    I also think we need to deconstruct what we mean by viability. To me there are three components- potency (how much does the Pokemon impact a match), splashability (how easily does it fit onto teams) and meta presence (how it influences the meta)
     

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