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RBY OU / 1U (OverUsed) Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Disaster Area, Feb 18, 2015.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Welcome to the RBY 1U Viability Ranking Thread! This is for Standard RBY. There is no wrap clause. In case you're not familiar with the concept, we place Pokémon in certain ranks here, based on their impact on the tier as well as their general viability in the tier. How This is an excellent help while teambuilding and it serves as a general outline of the tier.

    If you feel that a Pokémon is misplaced, feel free to make a post about it - that's what this thread is for. As long as you are reasonably sensible and courteous this thread should run smoothly.

    Pokémon are sorted into the respective categories based on how well they perform their roles. Within each ranking Pokemon are listed alphabetically to avoid overcomplication.

    Here is the list of PP's tiers.

    S Rank

    These are the top Pokemon of the tier, that you should put on nearly every serious team that you create. These Pokemon excel at their roles in the tier to such a point that they are dominating forces.

    [​IMG] Chansey - Analysis
    [​IMG] Exeggutor - Analysis 2 by Ortheore, Analysis 1 by Disaster Area
    [​IMG] Snorlax - Analysis
    [​IMG] Tauros - Analysis

    A Rank

    These Pokemon perform significant roles in the metagame, and perform them very well, however they are not the most dominating forces.

    A+

    [​IMG] Alakazam - Analysis
    [​IMG] Starmie - Analysis
    [​IMG] Zapdos - Analysis

    A-

    [​IMG] Lapras - Analysis
    [​IMG] Rhydon - Analysis
    [​IMG] Slowbro - Analysis


    B Rank

    These Pokemon are strong choices in the metagame, but perform less important roles or are less consistent than Pokémon in the Rank above. They have larger flaws than Pokémon in above ranks, or face greater competition from similar Pokemon, reducing their usefulness.

    [​IMG] Gengar - Analysis
    [​IMG] Golem - Analysis
    [​IMG] Jolteon - Analysis
    [​IMG] Jynx - Analysis

    C Rank

    These Pokemon are more infrequent sights in the metagame, particularly in top level matches, but are nevertheless viable Pokemon. They are less effective in the metagame than Pokémon in above ranks, but are effective with proper support.

    [​IMG] Cloyster - Analysis

    ------------------ Everything above this line is 1U ------------------ Everything below this line is 2U ------------------

    [​IMG] Dragonite - Analysis
    [​IMG] Victreebel - Analysis

    D Rank

    These Pokemon are very rare sights in top level matches, and suffer from more crippling flaws. They require a lot of support to be effective, and may have consistency issues.

    [​IMG] Articuno - Analysis
    [​IMG] Hypno - Analysis
    [​IMG] Kingler - Analysis
    [​IMG] Moltres - Analysis
    [​IMG] Persian - Analysis

    E Rank

    These Pokemon are barely viable in the tier but require very specific support to make use of. They have flaws too crippling for them to be seen at all often in high level play, but nevertheless are still explorable options. They are generally considered gimmicks.

    [​IMG] Clefable
    [​IMG] Dodrio - Analysis
    [​IMG] Flareon - Analysis
    [​IMG] Gyarados - Analysis
    [​IMG] Kabutops - Analysis
    [​IMG] Kangaskhan - Analysis
    [​IMG] Nidoking - Analysis
    [​IMG] Nidoqueen - Analysis
    [​IMG] Pinsir - Analysis
    [​IMG] Poliwrath
    [​IMG] Porygon - Analysis
    [​IMG] Raticate - Analysis
    [​IMG] Sandslash - Analysis
    [​IMG] Venusaur - Analysis

    F Rank

    These Pokemon have flaws too crippling to ever be serious contenders in the tier, and tend to suffer from being largely but not totally outclassed. They are considered gimmicks.

    [​IMG] Aerodactyl
    [​IMG] Charizard
    [​IMG] Dugtrio
    [​IMG] Electrode - Analysis
    [​IMG] Golduck
    [​IMG] Machamp
    [​IMG] Muk
    [​IMG] Ninetales
    [​IMG] Onix - Analysis
    [​IMG] Raichu - Analysis
    [​IMG] Rapidash
    [​IMG] Tentacruel - Analysis
    [​IMG] Wigglytuff - Analysis

    G Rank

    These Pokemon are generally completely outclassed in the tier, or are otherwise so poor as to be unable to fit in any of the above ranks.

    [​IMG] Arbok
    [​IMG] Arcanine
    [​IMG] Beedrill - Analysis
    [​IMG] Blastoise - Analysis
    [​IMG] Butterfree - Analysis
    [​IMG] Dewgong - Analysis
    [​IMG] Ditto - Analysis
    [​IMG] Electabuzz - Analysis
    [​IMG] Farfetch'd - Analysis
    [​IMG] Fearow - Analysis
    [​IMG] Golbat - Analysis
    [​IMG] Hitmonlee
    [​IMG] Hitmonchan - Analysis
    [​IMG] Kadabra
    [​IMG] Lickitung
    [​IMG] Magikarp - Analysis
    [​IMG] Magmar - Analysis
    [​IMG] Magneton - Analysis
    [​IMG] Marowak - Analysis
    [​IMG] Mr. Mime - Analysis
    [​IMG] Omastar
    [​IMG] Parasect - Analysis
    [​IMG] Pidgeot - Analysis
    [​IMG] Pikachu - Analysis
    [​IMG] Primeape - Analysis
    [​IMG] Seadra - Analysis
    [​IMG] Seaking - Analysis
    [​IMG] Scyther - Analysis
    [​IMG] Tangela
    [​IMG] Vaporeon - Analysis
    [​IMG] Venomoth - Analysis
    [​IMG] Vileplume - Analysis
    [​IMG] Weezing

    Current Discussion Points:

    Should we make these changes?
    [​IMG] B -> C
    [​IMG] E -> D
    [​IMG] E -> D
    [​IMG] E -> D
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 18, 2018 at 11:01 AM
  2. Lutra

    Lutra Site Founder Owner

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    I think you've rated Jynx too highly, it's great when luck/predictions are on your side, but it's frail and can make you work harder than you otherwise have to sometimes (it's not got the special downing power of Alakazam), similar to Gengar. It's sometimes popular, depending on what opponents use, but I think B is a better home.

    Rhydon's attack power is pretty valuable, despite the lack of Explosion. I'd say it should tag along with Golem.

    Lapras is a brilliant normal check and has a way of dealing with most things thanks to blizzard/bolt, sing, confuse ray, body slam, hyper beam (albeit it's not quite as good as Exeggutor at that). I think it deserves A.

    Would be nice to see individual descriptions, along with why Mew and Mewtwo are banned.
     
  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Implementing the suggested changes.

    I'll work on individual descriptions.

    What does gyara do? :x
     
  4. Mister Tim

    Mister Tim The most handsome man on PP Season Host

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    U should write that gengar is the fastest leading sleeper, coz it's main role in many of teams. Also it's will be useful to say that each Pokemon is good answer to another like victreebell is good check vs slowbro teams, which usually use golems/rhydon and slowbro in one team
     
  5. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    some good points :eek: will update

    it's just meant 2 be a quick summary so a llot of the extra detail can be found in a mon's analysis intro.

    bel>bro is important tho
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2015
  6. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    hmm most of the relevant ranks look good, good stuff.

    Normally I'd object to Persian being in D not C, but it makes sense.

    In terms of E (warning, theorymon incoming), Drio seems a cut above all the rest, especially with Raticate floating around in D (maybe change Rat's description to wallbreaker as well, since that's what Super Fang does and SFang is literally its only niche).
    m9m recently mentioned Kabutops as something to consider for OU. I personally have never thought about it, but it makes sense for similar rationale to listing Omastar.
    When I was learning RBY and spending a lot of time looking through RBY2K10 threads I noticed that they argued Muk>Weezing on the grounds that Acid Armor + Mega Drain allows it to beat GolDon, so if you really wanna mention one of them probably Muk is the one to go with.
    Poliwrath has enough things going for it to warrant a mention in E
     
  7. CrapAtRBY

    CrapAtRBY Member

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    I'd put Raticate and Raichu in E, As soon as you've paralysed Raticate it may as well be dead, an anything faster than it with recover renders it's Super Fang a stalling tactic and Raichu's niche over the other 2 electrics is even less relevant now.

    Dodrio and Clefable I would move to D. Gyarados is a suprisingly effective hit and run mon, you could probably make a case for it scraping D rank, but it's getting deprived of it's main switch in opportunities right now with Goldon falling in to disrepute.

    I have never even heard of Weezing or Omastar in a competitive OU setting, Hitmonlee seems out of place too. Poliwrath and Golduck have amnesia, with the former having sleep and counter shenanigans at it's disposal aswell, and Tentacruel can swords dance, it depends how far down the rabbit hole you want to go, I would probably trim E down a bit.
     
  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    I've heard of use of Weezing but not Muk although both are clearly pretty poor.

    Apart from gyara and the fire and fighting types I know of top players using all the E rank mons with some degree of success. Would anyone consider usin poli/duck or are there always directly better options?
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2015
  9. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    should raticate move down/anything like clefable move up?

    I personally think we should have some discussion of Cloyster, Lapras, and Rhydon. I feel the former is possibly under-ranked and the latter 2 possibly over-ranked but I'm interested to hear opinions on these
     
  10. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I definitely think Dodrio>Rat, but like I said I've not got much experience with either

    I definitely don't think Don and Lap are overrated.

    Lap's midgame presence is really second to none, it pressures literally everything in the game and therefore generates a ton of free turns. That combined with the fact that it's a physical check mean it's really easy slotting this on a team.

    Don is still good. Obviously it gets hurt by the metagame shifts more than Golem does. But it still preys upon paralysed, physically weak pokemon by smacking something really hard, and the support it requires is still the same, just a little harder to pull off because players aren't letting their blobs get paralysed all willy-nilly now. Basically I'm saying that yes it got worse and now Golem's boom gives it the clear edge, but its switch-in opportunities are still the same, it's still a potent attacker and it's not worse by so big a margin that it deserves to be ranked alongside stuff like Bel.

    Cloy I'm fine with leaving in C. Explosion is literally all it has over Lapras- sure Clamp gives you free turns, but it's not as though Lapras can't create free turns effectively itself. I always feel underwhelmed when using Cloy- it comes in, takes a powerful hit (better than anything else can sure, but it's still getting worn down), it fires off a Blizzard or something as Chansey/Starmie/Lapras comes in, they take it easily it Clamps you out into something else. I guess when you consider this over a couple of cycles and the fact that Cloy can run HBeam and hence can threaten a KO while Lap has to drop CRay or BSlam in order to do the same, then Cloy is perhaps just as effective, maybe a little more so, at working around Chansey, but it's very much debatable. So this debatable point is then weighed up against the fact that Lapras and Starmie totally defecate on Cloyster, while neither enjoys switching into tbolt/paraslam.

    You'll notice I don't really talk much about Golem/Cloy's explosions. Tbh I don't readily blow up my pokemon unless I am using Gengar- I value consistent mid-game contributions more than I value the high risk/reward of booming. That might be why I dislike Cloy and like Don. Then again, not using their boom effectively is probably a hole in my game *shrugs*
     
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    I'd definitely like to hear some opinions on this, haha you do make it clear that it's a part of how you play that affects how you value them.

    I had Raish feeling Kingler was as good as Rhydon currently so I'm sure there's potential for someone to call it over-rated. I'll see if I can get him to comment on the rankings ;) I think the rhydon thing might well be quite prejudiced from our experience of paraslam metagame. I don't actually see much of a reason to describe it as anything other than a late game sweeper with the exception of it also walling zapdos and eating explosion (both of which Golem can do good enough) - the value of explosion in a defensive sense (sounds a bit peculiar lmao) makes golem much better at absorbing hyper beams and not being as bit a bait for tauros, or as worried about being walled by exeggutor. I think the defensive niche is the only thing that separates it from any other niche late-game sweeper, so I guess it sort of compresses that, but then again a lot of mons like kingler for example have an easier time actualyl sweeping (e.g. with kingler you don't need to spread as much paralysis and its speed tier helps it a lot)
     
  12. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    In my mind it's always been competing with Golem and Snorlax for a spot on a team, something that can come in on paralysed special walls and smack something- either hitting said wall really hard, or wearing down opposing physical checks. I've never really viewed it as a late-game sweeper, more as a para'd Chansey response and supporter for an eventual Tauros sweep (I guess you'd call it a wallbreaker? Doesn't seem quite the right term for it).
     
  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    I think I can agree but I often run Rhydon alongside snorlax - I only really use it to pressure chansey when it's out of nesecity - if you take an ice beam you find it harder to absorb hyper beams/explosions, and tauros blizzard KOs without a critical hit/freeze needed. Bringing it in early's only really useful for trying to chip exeggutor - when you bring it in early you have to be conscious of how it's bound to switch out again very soon - so many pokemon can do it, exeggutor, starmie, lapras, even tauros. If it does KO something and then tauros is brought in you have a lot of issues, so you either have to save it for post-tauros and to absorb explosions (if you can), and maybe to wall electrics (pretty risky though especially since it's such an obvious lure, a double to tauros can be deadly), or you carry it alongside things that can switch into tauros a couple of times during the match [slowbro, rest stun egg, lapras, starmie, probably some other stuff] - i.e. you can't fit it on a more offensively oriented team without playing in the first way. A team packing just starmie lead, stun spore egg, and a rhydon is probably better off with golem in most circumstances since it has such an issue with the lack of defense offered by a team like that.
     
  14. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    I think Slowbro and Zapdos could be moved to a rank between A and B (say A-), ad they are way more dangerous than the other B ranked. Dnite and Cloyster can be moved to B, Kangaskhan and Kingler to C.
     
  15. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Yeah, I probably shouldn't have said that they compete since they are viable alongside each other (but if I'm running both Lax and a Rock I actually prefer Golem anyways but that's w/e). I think chipping away at Egg is a pretty worthwhile goal in and of itself. It's pretty easy to avoid coming in on Chansey's Ice Beam imo, since if the worst comes to worst you can simply park something in front of it and bash away at it until the Softboiled becomes obvious (Zam, parafusion Lap, your own Chansey). I personally think that a Tauros vs. Rhydon matchup isn't that bad (relatively speaking, since this is Tauros we're talking about here) since it's unlikely to be using its Normal STAB which means it's a hell of a lot easier to switch into. Obviously there're prediction mindgames involved but it's overall not too bad.

    Basically I view it chipping away at its switchins (or fishing for para if it's facing Starm) to be worth the risk associated with letting Egg/Starm/Lap in. Chansey generally neutralises Egg/Starm well enough, Lap is a bit more tricky but at the same time it gets worn down a lot faster than the other 2. I think it's clear we both play Rhydon quite differently though so idk.

    Re Marco: I wouldn't argue with Zapdos moving up, it seriously kicks ass. Slowbro I just find too inconsistent though- it has games where it'll demolish/cripple half a team, but for every one of those there's a fair few where it just doesn't accomplish all that much.

    Dnite moving up I think is fair, and I've already said my bit on Cloy. While I don't have a strong opinion on whether Khan/King move up, I don't feel comfortable putting them a whole rank above Persian, who is an equally effective lategame cleaner and a kickass revenge-killer against non-Gengar teams, especially because it revenges Tauros, which is just such a good trait in the wake of Crystal's mechanics.
     
  16. Lutra

    Lutra Site Founder Owner

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    Lickitung has a tiny niche, 208 attack normal SDer with 158 speed (needs paralysis support). The STAB (putting its attack to 312) and fact it can't be paraslammed, along with wrap means it'll at least work in occasional situations.

    Maybe you should also add an F Rank to distinguish the E rankers that have a realistic niche from an unrealistic one. Then G are all the worthless ones (the rest).

    Edit: Lowered the image sizes in the OP.
     
  17. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Actually, Persian might be the underrated one, and could be moved up as well. It was considered to be one of the original top 16 OU, and as you said it's now better than it was before. Still, suffering 2HKOs from everything is bad, and Kangaskhan can take a lot more on the physical side, learns Counter and can't be walled.
    If Tauros was banned, we would've used it on almost every team.
    I see the point about Kingler, that can be inconsistent.

    Slowbro is really valuable as a team player with Thunder Wave: it will rarely sweep, but if you don't risk it against Thunderbolts, it will paralyze one or two things (paralyze Starmie and run) and/or will eventually draw an explosion. And that is a process where the Slowbro user is in a good position: boom can be predicted, blowing up Exeggutor or Snorlax could have bad side effects....
     
  18. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    I'd like to hear some reasoning/more support before I make these. I'm okay with the idea of splitting a rank into two so long as this is done for every rank other than possibly S. Otherwise it looks non-sensical.

    points about rhydon forcing a non-normal move is interesting and valid. Agreement on the comment about chipping switches too. I could possibly go with the move of persian not sure though ;-;

    I think with zapdos whilst we feel it kicks ass I think we should probably wait out another couple of months to see how much equilibrium returns to zapdos/rocks dynamic, but some logical discussion of the case of why we feel zapdos is so good would be welcomed.

    Should Lickitung be E rank then?

    I'll get to adding further lower ranks till every FE Pokemon is included as I might as well, but gimme a bit of time ;D

    no more real comment to add on marco's post but more discussion please :] I need to get raish to post here lol
     
  19. Lutra

    Lutra Site Founder Owner

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    yeah, lickitung for E, boltbeam also doesn't destroy it immediately.
     
  20. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Some commentary of Raish's on the rankings, offer your thoughts?

     
  21. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Definitely agree with Zap at A. Gengar I don't agree with as much, it's a good lead in an environment where Jynx is literally everywhere, but other than that it's still too dependent on blowing itself up to accomplish stuff. Jynx is something that I wouldn't argue too much with in A. I actually feel it's the enemy of its own success right now- because it's everywhere it runs into a lot of 50-50 lead matchups, whereas in the pre-Crystal meta where Zam and Starm leads were everywhere, it had a lot of good matchups. So yeah Jynx is fine in A imo.

    Sounds almost like he's arguing for Zam/Star to drop. I don't think I'd argue with Starmie dropping, Jynx has stolen a good portion of its niche as a lead, while Lax and Chansey are still solid Starm checks/counters that aren't particularly easy to capitalise off. Zam still kicks ass though. I would've said it's relatively aggressive with its ability to hax just about anything.

    I adamantly disagree with targetting Don and not Golem. Golem is unquestionably slightly better, but they are still so similar in their function that they deserve to be ranked together imo. And on that note, I just don't see Kingler as being better than Don at all. Maybe as a sweeper yeah, but Don is a much better midgame player than King. Immunity to Twave is a big deal, it allows Don to switch in much more freely than King. Also comparing EQ to HBeam is also misleading because the recharge turn of HBeam is a huge deal, means King is much more limited in what it can accomplish without setup

    Edit: Not saying King shouldn't rise, just that Don is better imo. Also I don't think King is B rank. C works I guess, can't say I've used it much
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2015
  22. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Double posting, what you gonna do about it?

    Both electrics need to rise a rank. They're seriously great right now. Dodrio belongs in D rank, definitely at least as good as stuff like Rat. It's better than all of those normals at being a poor man's Tauros imo, though the others have their own quirks that separate them obviously.

    DA idk if you wanna do anything about Moltres. I don't see why it should be bumped, but I haven't used it, you have and you were saying it's not terrible on PO so idk.

    Also if we move Jolt out of C rank, it looks a bit barren. Is that an issue, and if it is, what should we do about it?
     
  23. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    How does Jolt to B, Moltres to C or D, Kingler to C, Dodrio to D sound to you?
     
  24. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Jolteon to B; Moltres, Kingler, Dodrio and Victreebel to D; Cloyster is low C (it learns Explosion...).
    Zapdos and Jolteon are arguabily better than the rest of B: Gengar and Rhydon could be dropped to C as Dragonite and Cloyster are the only C ranked on my list.

    Dodrio can't really be put higher than D as Tauros' Blizzard being guaranteed KO on a critical hit is bad.
    High speed + 318 attack is a peculiar trait, but so is Slash, or Counter. And rocks are still there.

    Kingler has to look out for electrics and can't paraslam Tauros, and about Moltres: fire type and low accuracy.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2015
  25. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Yeah I definitely wouldn't put Moltres higher than D, sure it has a lot of power, but its typing is ass and Starmie exists.

    Gengar I definitely don't think should drop, being the only decent lead in the game with a positive matchup against Jynx is very significant, while fast explosion + Night Shade is just as good as it always was, arguably better since there's less GolDon around and it provides insurance for if you can't break Chansey for whatever reason. There is also the fact that it checks water types, even if Jolt does this better.

    Damn I just realised that if I'm arguing for Gengar to stay in B, it's a little inconsistent to say Golem and Rhydon should be ranked together, since Golem and Gengar are defined by their explosions, and that's something I tend to underrate with Golem. So I guess Don could drop =/

    Agree with King not rising, sure it needs less para support, but its checks are everywhere and status or any special attack just ruins it

    Still not sold on Bel dropping. Not saying I disagree just that it's a change I wouldn't be fully on board with, especially if we want to keep numbers in C

    Also Zap definitely belongs in A
     
  26. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Moltres+Dodrio up to D okay I can roll with. Jolteon definitely deserves B.
    So I guess we're now considering moving Bell (down to D?), Zapdos (up to A??), and what about rocks and gar.

    Also I need to add Lickitung to E kek

    If you want Zapdos to rise to A I'd like to see some more reasoning (I've seen what it can do many times over sure but I'm not totally convinced yet, still)

    As to whether Golem/Rhydon should drop that's an interesting question.
    For a start, they're less splashable, and Jolteon is much more notable in terms of competition for the anti-Zapdos role. The increase of different lax variants hurts both of them too, whilst the increase of jolteon around is a benefit since both have a good matchup vs it.

    I guess the next thing to ask is.. what is each Pokemon ... supposed.. to do? (other than wall Electrics)
    Rhydon - I've used it more and I understand how to use it a lot better. Basically it's a case of a sweeper that you want lots of stuff (particularly Chansey) para'd for, and can use its tbolt/twave immunity, particularly when paired with a Water type, Jynx, etc. to gain one or two free turns, allowing it to either break Chansey or begin to wear down Exeggutor. Furthermore its BSlam doesn't hit Egg quite so pussilanimously compared to golem. Golem probably can do similar things, but it's less focussed on wearing down Egg and using it to sweep, more to blow up on Egg I guess once it's poked its way around a bit. You ultimately, unlike with Rhydon, want to get more use out of it by facing it off versus Lax. Rhydon is probably better for soaking Hyper Beams late game in the sense that you're not wasting its potential so much by not bringing it out early game most matches, whilst Golem generally will be revealed by the time soaking HB becomes useful, so it does it less consistently, but the fact it can Explode on tauros is a huge plus-side - however, it can't even face off with Lax toooooo easily here since Tauros Hyper Beam vs. Golem on a critical hit: 131-154 (36 - 42.4%) means you can't absorb below 43% [below 155 HP to be exact] so you have to be wary of that when taking on Lax 1v1. I guess also compare these, Rhydon Earthquake vs. Snorlax: 169-199 (32.3 - 38%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO, Golem Earthquake vs. Snorlax: 150-177 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO. So, with this food for thought,
    should Rhydon/Golem be considered as being ranked differently, and how should we rank them?

    Moving Jolt/Moltres/Dodrio now and adding Tung, i think Gar should really stay in B. Discuss Rhydon/Golem/Zapdos/Victreebel. Maybe also make comparisons with Kingler when discussing the Rocks.

    I think my desire to keep Rhydon in B might just be because my most common styles of play recently [Defensive; Paralysis Spam] (i.e. past couple of months) have been a style where Rhydon is vital and fits very nicely. So there's that aspect to consider when discuss each mon.. also the fact is STAB earthquake is really damn good, especially when you can get Exeggutor more or less out of the picture.

    One final thought, but every time you get a kill with Rhydon/Golem, it's a free switch in for their Tauros, and unless you have a healthy Lapras/Exeggutor/Slowbro/Lax/??? to switch in to its either Earthquake, Blizzard, or if Rhydon/Golem is as ~10% or below, Body Slam [possibly even Hyper Beam if it's really late in the game and they're at below 17% :O] makes the incredible amount of damage you can get with them less significant. Whilst you can get Paralysis on Tauros, it's waaaaaaaay harder than pre-paraslam, and this is a HUGE blow for the rocks.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2015
  27. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Zapdos has definitely A-power, but the big difference is that Alakazam/Starmie/Lapras can all bring down their counters with special drops, freezes, Sing, Hyper Beam... nonetheless, its offensive typing scares all the rest of the metagame. A-rank doable, 8th place.

    Gengar is very unconsistent, being 2HKO'd by Psychic (and their users have high ch rate) and 2HKO'd or OHKO'd by Earthquake users: this leaves out Chansey, Lapras, the electrics and maybe Slowbro. If it can be slept it's good, otherwise it can't do a lot more than Explosion- that is weak and usually backfires. I don't feel that comfortable at all with Gengar vs Jynx: best lead against Jynx is Jolteon. If it is B (due to Explosion, normal immunity and sleep), it's really last place.

    Rhydon is an hit and runner, and it hates paralysis from Snorlax a lot more than Golem. It can switch only on Hyper Beam and electric moves.

    Victreebel can switch only into Thunderbolt, overall speed raised a lot, it has hard counters and it becomes completely uneffective once it misses and gets TWaved: sadly it "suffers from more crippling flaws" and has "consistency issues" even if we all know it can sweep at times. Cloyster is bottom C and has a lot less things to worry about.
     
  28. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    On that note i'll move Zapdos to A I think I guess..

    I definitely agree Rhydon is very hit and run, Golem has a bit more need for staying power and getting the use out of its physical bulk to take more than hyper beams and exlposions. Think I'll drop Vic to D, leaving it barren xd

    maybe elaborate on how jolt is better than gar vs jynx leads..? M Dragon and Isa think you're off with it..
    [12:24:12] David: idgaf about the opinions of 1 user
    [12:24:19] Axel "Isa" Wik: i dont understand how jolteon can be better than 60% sleep vs jynx
    [12:24:23] David: saying nosense
    [12:24:34] David: like that
    [12:24:38] George S. [Disaster Area]: marco knows what he's on about usually..
    [12:24:47] David: its like saying jolt > tauros
     
  29. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    gaaaaaah I hate the GolDon-King comparison, immunity to Twave and not having to set up to hit hard is a massive game-changer, means they're so much more relevant midgame. GolDon are hit and run attackers like Marco said- sweeping with them requires crazy amounts of support.

    The reason I changed my stance on GolDon being ranked together is that I've always loved using Gengar because I feel like I can be reckless and gamble with its explosion because frankly the risk-reward situation is much better than other explosions, simply because after sleep Gengar is otherwise less valuable than something like Golem. Then I decided that this was partially an issue of perception, that if I really wanted to I could play Golem in that reckless manner. Also Golem's explosion can be clutch in many scenarios as the game enters its later stages, especially if your Golem is at a good HP level

    Anyway, I'm strongly of the opinion that Gengar's explosion is widely underrated. In terms of raw numbers it can be underwhelming, but if you're targeting one of Zam/Egg/Chans then it's generally pretty effective - Zam is generally KO'd, although you have to get it on the switch. Chansey and Egg live explosion with varying amounts of HP (14-27% and 30-41% respectively). After a single NS an explosion will leave them as Tauros fodder (although Chansey arguably already is). Because Gengar is quite fast, it's very feasible getting off a NS and following that up with an explosion to cripple something. Not to mention that if you're sleep foddering it and manage to wake it up, that fast explosion is an absolute game-changer.

    Also I really can't agree with Jolt/Gengar vs Jynx comments. 2/3 chance of sleep is hard to beat, and it's not as though Gengar's bad sleep fodder anyway
     
  30. Lutra

    Lutra Site Founder Owner

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    I will try to re-add that bb code, so the OP gets fixed.
     
  31. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Bumpittybump

    I've seen the light, Rhydon can drop, not having explosion is that big a deal. Means that it's less effective at abusing normal resist, and means that everything it does is dependent on extensive para support
     
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  32. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Fully agree, dropping don into C.

    must admit think I wanna wwap zapdos and jolteon :>
     
  33. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    hmm not sure how I feel about that- one the one hand zap's simply got better bulk and power, but jolt is better at fitting onto teams because it walls zap and isn't weak to blizzard. Beating Zap is a big deal imo, it's because of Jolt that when I'm running Zap I'm wary of stacking Electric weaknesses (one of the reasons I think Zap+Water isn't good, despite theoretically having great synergy)

    But Zap's lategame performance is far better. I don't know, I feel like I'd need to play around with Jolt a bit more before I get on board with that change
     
  34. Bomber

    Bomber Host Emeritus

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    whats happened to zam? why none is using it? why A rank?
     
  35. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Adding analysis links into the rankings. In exeggutor's case there are 2 analyses, I have added both, with the most recent having the lowest numerical demonination.
     
  36. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    I personally feel Dodrio and Raticate should be moved down to E. Pretty much everything in D is stuff that I would legitimately consider using for a high level match rather than just for fun, stuff in E (barring venu which is there more due to being outclassed to a large but not overwhlming extent by a D rank mon). Opinons?

    During Summer: :mad: yn

    Also more controversial, imo Rhydon to D. Am more likely to use Moltres on a serious team, and stuff like kingler vic etc on a similar level.

    C feels kind of empty but I sorta view it as Big 4 | Starmie + Zam | Lapras | Zapdos Jolt other B ranks | Cloyster which is good but not on the same level | Dnite | Rhydon which has overuse due to historic reasons - I like it but honestly I like Moltres just as much, and whilst it's less consistent it does much greater work when it's useful than rhydon does and its peak is defined more by matchup. Actual underrated nuke tho.
     
  37. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I think Drio and Rat can drop. They're just outclassed and overall not as good as the rest of D rank. Better than almost all of E, but still

    Not sure about Don dropping, leaning against it. Definitely for me I'd use it ahead of something like Bel, it's certainly more viable than many in D rank, and I feel that Rock+Water cores are nice and it's a good fit on those teams (I actually prefer it to Golem on those teams).

    On a wcop inspired note, thoughts on Gengar dropping? I'm a little conflicted on this, since I think Gengar's explosion is an enormously threatening tool, but on the other hand it's a dedicated lead that only has one good lead matchup lol. This makes its role as a sleeper erratic and beyond that it's literally got nothing but boom.
     
  38. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    It's erratic and inconsistent but firstly the catch-all cheese-prevention, secondly the sleep, thirdly the explosion, fourthly the natural synergy with like half the tier (including egg) is awesome. I just feel that whilst it's a bit inconsistent there's so much that it does that even if it doesn't do it all that brilliantly it should still be B rank.

    Gonna move the normals for now, will await more opinions on don before we decide if it's C or D rank.

    e: also thoughts on kanga and persian? I know Jelli made kanga really work for him, at least according to marco. Both are sort of gimmicky.. dunno what do you think? I feel they're both E rank but there's traditional love for Persian just like there is for Rhydon.
     
  39. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I've never seen the appeal behind Kanga, and I was considering saying something about it when you brought up Drio/Rat. That said, I've almost never used it so who knows

    I'm a relatively big fan of Persian, so maybe you're talking to the wrong person, but its speed tier is fantastic and really what elevates it above all the other shitty normals. When it comes to lategame sweeping, Tauros is the gatekeeper of viability. Gaining some kind of edge over Tauros makes an enormous difference in determining the viability of a given sweeper. So for Persian to be able to outpace Tauros is a big deal, and definitely what makes it better than something like Dodrio. So yeah, Persian to stay in D.

    Also that argument can be applied to Kanga+Counter too so idk
     
  40. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Paging marcoasd to offer an opinion on the appropriate ranking for Persian and Kangaskhan, although anyone can offer an opinion.
     
  41. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Ok with D, and rankings look fine the way they are now. Lapras and Slowbro could exchange positions, but it's not clear.
     
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  42. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    First, the modules you've chosen to distinguish each metagame from each other are a little confusing; for example, RBY Ubers is called "RBY 1P," RBY OU is "RBY 1U," etc. You should just say "RBY Ubers," "RBY OU," "RBY BL," etc (unless you have a good reason for this that hasn't been divulged).

    After having a cursory look at the rankings, I noticed that you put Kangaskhan in the same class as Articuno, Moltres, Victreebel, etc. Besides Counter, Kangaskhan doesn't offer anything that distinguishes himself from Tauros, and has nothing to offer over Snorlax. Kangaskhan is just a weaker Tauros with less staying power. Meanwhile, Clefable is lower on the list, who has more bulk and is only slightly weaker on the physical side, yet has a better movepool because of her far superior Special and access to both Sing and Counter. I've used Clefable a lot more in OU than Kangaskhan, that's for sure. You could even argue that Wigglytuff is at least as good as Kangaskhan. I just don't see Kangaskhan in the same class as the others. Let's have a look:

    Articuno: 348 Special, 120 BP attack with 90% accuracy, bulky, can OHKO Chansey with a crit.
    Moltres: 348 Special, 120 BP attack with 85% accuracy, can pull wins out of its ass with Agility+Fire Spin
    Hypno: Very bulky, Hypnosis, Thunder Wave, Meditate, 328 Special
    Victreebel: Double powder, can pull wins out of its ass with Wrap, Swords Dance
    Kingler: Massive Attack and Defense, Crabhammer, Swords Dance
    Persian: Slash, outspeeds almost everything, high crit rate

    Kangaskhan: Counter (predictable and Snorlax does it better because it has less Defense)

    I would either move Kangaskhan down or the others up, or at least add a couple of Pokemon to class D. Clefable is at least as good as Kangaskhan for sure, if not better.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2015
  43. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    I like the old modules, too. We're making different as we want to end up with a banlist-tier-banlist-tier-banlist-tier succession.

    I think Kangaskhan is actually good enough (and Clefable could be underrated, I was a big fan in the paraslam days): physical moves are valuable. Articuno is walled at times, and even when it's not, it's not a lot better than other mons like Cloyster and Lapras that can actually beat Chansey (Sky Attack could be used more, but Articuno is pretty rare to start with).
    On a final note, Kangaskhan really has sweeping power (attack, speed, ch rate) while Clefable and Wigglytuff don't. Persian can't use that Body Slam + CH/para RNG and has a terrible moveset (no EQ, uses Bubblebeam and Thunderbolt is super filler).

    Moltres is the one that really has point for being underrated, while the risk of burning a Starmie, thawing things out or just missing moves hold it back.

    Overall, that one is a nice list of mons that make a team damn weak to Zapdos (that's a big "crippling flaw" that makes them equally "very rare sights in top level matches")
    When talking about BL, we put them on different ranks, indeed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2015
  44. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Whilst I think in old meta Kanga was justifiable, I can see why one might want to move it down. Think I will do that. With a little more persuasion I could be happy to move Clef up to D, although I don't think it's something I'd use. i'm just curious what do you use on it - it has lots of options but it struggles to differentiate itself from Snorlax/Chansey/Tauros. What sets do you run on it? Can it still be effective without its 'surprise' element?

    Re: Tiering, me/Lutra/Ortheore/others find the newer form of tiering more sensible than the old. We feel it should go Banlist, Tier, Banlist, Tier, etc. - even if the banlists turn out to be unnessecary for a certain tier, before a tier is decided upon it's better to have the capacity for a banlist. The nu
    mbering is a bit different, let me explain.
    xP = All Pokemon that are banned from the tier that it is a banlist of are legal here.
    xU = Tier number x.
    Anything before 1P refers to Ubers with fewer clauses [e.g. no species or evasion or whatever]
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2015
  45. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    These rankings, in the words of Disaster Area, purport to rank Pokemon according to their “impact on the tier” and “viability in the tier.” Since I assume every Pokemon is being ranked based on their viability in OU, we need to consider the two principles by which Pokemon are usually ranked:

    1. How often they’re used in OU

    2. Their potential in OU

    I can say with certainty that I never used Kangaskhan or faced one in around 200 ladder matches, and the same applies to every tournament I participated in at PP or Smogon. I have, however, used Clefable in serious OU teams, and have faced a few people on the ladder who used it as well. While Clefable is still hardly used in OU, if you look at the history of RBY as a whole it has been used a lot more than Kangaskhan in comparison.

    When building teams, we usually don’t use anything that isn’t a staple. BLs and below are sometimes considered because they provide a niche or an element of surprise. Kangaskhan’s biggest selling point is that his Attack is only 10 points lower than Tauros, yet has the same movepool and a decent crit rate. However, there is no significant reason to run Kangaskhan over Tauros or Snorlax, and having a weaker Tauros on your team as your 6th Pokemon is redundant. And let’s not ignore that abysmal Special either.

    Clefable may be slower and may lack a better crit, but there are good reasons why it’s always been more popular (up until now, maybe. Have people been using Kangaskhan in OU lately? Doubt it) than Kangaskhan. First of all, Clefable’s superior bulk allows it to survive at least two hits from pretty much everything in OU, whereas Kangaskhan is always 2HKOd on average by the likes of Exeggutor, Alakazam, and Lapras. Clefable’s respectable Special is partially responsible for that bulk, which allows it to hit Water types harder with Thunderbolt and Grass types harder with Blizzard than Kangaskhan would with Body Slam.

    Besides attacking, Clefable’s Thunder Wave is even more important in the new meta. Its bulk and excellent movepool allow it to come in at any point in the game and wreak havoc with attacks and its support moves. It can paralyze something, or you can try to predict a switch to the incoming para sponge and use Sing instead. You can run a Sing+Counter set and switch into a Hyper Beam, Counter for the OHKO, and still have enough health to survive an attack and put the next Pokemon to sleep. Clefable can succeed whether you run an offensive set or a supportive set.

    Wigglytuff, while weaker, also has the same movepool and Attack as Clefable. I’ve even used Wigglytuff more in OU than Kangaskhan because of its versatility.

    As for what moveset I would run, I like to go offensive:

    ~Blizzard
    ~Body Slam
    ~Hyper Beam
    ~Thunder Wave

    Hyper Beam can be replaced if you’d rather hit Water types instead of Chansey and Alakazam, or you can go even more offensive and ditch Thunder Wave for Thunderbolt. I ran Sing+Counter a lot more on Wigglytuff.

    As for Persian, his moveset is good enough; if he could learn Earthquake the 4th move wouldn’t be filler, but at least he has a better chance to OHKO GolDon than Kangaskhan does. His Speed and Slash explain why he’s a fringe OU whereas Kangaskhan has drifted between BL and UU.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2015
  46. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    They have both close to no reason to be used. Kangaskhan is kinda redundant (I remember using Jynx/Gar/Starmie+ Sing Chansey+Alakazam+Snorlax+Tauros+Kangaskhan).
    Clefable could be moved up: E rank is humiliating. Same goes for Raticate and Dodrio.
     
  47. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    Kangaskhan may be redundant, but I disagree about Clefable: it can be effective if you use it once in a bo3 or bo5. It can reliably paralyze and wound something, and only Chansey can switch in safely. Not to mention its versatility as well. Definitely not OU, but better than novelty.

    I assume these rankings have a long way to go, as many Pokemon are still missing. You forgot Muk, for example, who is actually better than Weezing in OU because it has higher Attack and can kill GolDon by itself with Acid Armor + Mega Drain. In addition to the missing Pokemon, you need to make more classes. Omastar and Aerodactyl, for instance, are clearly worse in OU than Raichu and Gyarados.
     
  48. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Note though weezing has the higher speed stat, letting it outpace Exeggutor, which is huge. I'm not keen to add any other rankings within or beyond E as of yet, it'd be really splitting hairs deciding on what is better than the others (I'd more seriously consider using Aerodactyl then Gyarados for example but both are clearly mediocre). On that note though, any other Pokémon you think ought to be added (should I add Muk?)
     
  49. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    While Weezing may have a slight speed advantage, Muk’s superior Attack allows it to 2HKO Tauros on average, OHKO Starmie with a high roll, and will almost always OHKO Chansey. I’d say Weezing’s biggest advantage over Muk is its incongruous Special that lets make it good use of Thunderbolt, but even then it’s ultimately going to be on a suicide mission. In a lower tier like UU I would always pick Weezing over Muk, but in OU they have about the same potential, though I think Muk’s advantages are more conducive to success.

    Wigglytuff should absolutely be on the list: it’s incredibly versatile and is more likely to be useful than something like Kabutops or Omastar. Poliwrath should also be on the list, as it has solid defenses and is one of the few Pokemon that can learn both Counter and Hypnosis. Moreover, its typing gives it good matchups against Tauros and Snorlax.
     
  50. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Does Wigglytuff have anything over Clefable? Will add Muk/Poliwrath
     

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