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RBY OU / 1U (OverUsed) Venusaur [GP Ready]

Discussion in 'Individual Analyses' started by Lusch, Mar 6, 2017.

  1. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    Venusaur [​IMG]
    Type: Grass/Poison
    Stats: HP 363 (80 Base) | Atk 262 (82)| Def 264 (83) | Spe 258 (80) | Spec 298 (100)


    Introduction

    Venusaur's stats are decent across the board. While none of them is outstanding, all are definitely usable, enabling Venusaur to both take and give out hits decently well. Venusaur's speed puts it into the group of Pokemon that are faster than Lapras downwards but slower than Zapdos upwards, which is not a bad spot for a sleeper to be in.

    Venusaur is one of only two Pokemon (the other being Victreebel) that has access to by far the best damaging move the Grass type has to offer in this generation, Razor Leaf. Coming off of Venusaur's decently high special stat, STAB Razor Leaf deals a good amount of damage to a lot of Pokemon in the RBY 1U tier while being resisted by relatively few. In addition to that Venusaur is relatively fast for a Pokemon that gets the second most accurate sleep-inducing move in the game, Sleep Powder (the most accurate being Spore, the signature move of Parasect). It can thus sleep common slower Pokemon and proceed to deal a good amount of damage to the opposing team on top of that. It also serves well as a Counter to Slowbro due to Razor Leaf always landing a critical hit and thus ignoring Amnesia boosts. It also gets access to Swords Dance but unlike some other SD users it is not meant to sweep but rather cripple the opposing team with sleep and blow holes into the opposing team for teammates.

    Venusaur usually competes with Exeggutor and Victreebel for a slot on a team and is thus not a common sight in the metagame. In comparison with Exeggutor, Venusaur's Poison typing makes it weak to the omnipresent Psychic-attack and takes away the Ground-resistence the Grass type has to offer, making it a lot less valuable defensively, while, once brought in safely, it usually is more threatening offensively thanks to outspeeding opposing Exeggutor and threaten to sleep it plus Razor Leaf not being resisted by as many common Pokemon as Psychic. Exeggutor's greater versatility through a lot more viable options (for example Stun Spore and most importantly Explosion) make it far superior to Venusaur, though. Victreebel is very similar to Venusaur stat-wise and identical typing-wise but has access to some useful moves Venusaur does not get (Wrap and Stun Spore) which differentiate the two.

    Sets

    Standard

    Venusaur
    -Razor Leaf
    -Sleep Powder
    -Swords Dance
    -Hyper Beam

    Set Details

    Venusaur has some advantages over Exeggutor as a sleeper as in that it is faster and outspeeds some (mostly uncommon) Pokemon that Exeggutor fails to move first against but most importantly it does not have to win a speed tie vs opposing Exeggutor. But Venusaur's main advantage as a sleeper over Exeggutor is that it's sleep is not blocked as easily by paralyzed opposing Pokemon (especially not by Starmie, which is probably the best blocker vs Exeggutor) thanks to Razor Leaf and Swords Dance. This set tries to get the most advantage out of that fact. Try to bring in Venusaur safely (unlike Exeggutor, switching in on a paraslam takes away most of Venusaur's potential) and threaten sleep vs a slower opponent.

    Sleep Powder gives you an immediate sleep while Swords Dance is there to threaten common paralyzed Pokemon that usually block sleep such as Alakazam and Jynx which both have a high chance to get KOed at full health by +2 Hyper Beam (~75% in Alakazam's case, 100% in Jynx's). Once Venusaur has gotten the sleep it can usually deal some significant damage right after or later on in the battle.

    Razor Leaf OHKOs the Rock/Ground types of the tier (which cannot be achieved by any other Grass type move without a crit) as well as dealing super effective damage to Starmie, Slowbro and Lapras. It also hits Snorlax and Tauros for great damage, coming close to a 3HKO and 2HKO respectively.

    Other Options

    Venusaur has some other options but none of them are really appealing. Body Slam can always be used over Hyper Beam (or Swords Dance) because of the 30% chance to score a paralysis on non-normal type Pokemon but cuts Venusaur's potential greatly.

    Leech Seed, Toxic, Substitue, Reflect, Growth and Mega Drain are there but in order to run them somewhat effectively you'd need to run Rest alongside it making you have to give up either the Normal type coverage or Razor Leaf/Sleep Powder and there is absolutely no point in doing that.

    Checks and Counters

    Gengar either resists or is immune to anything Venusaur can throw at it and thus has nothing to fear from Venusaur (assuming something else is already asleep) and can hit back with Night Shade or Psychic.

    Exeggutor and the legedary birds all resist Razor Leaf and take little from Venusaur's other attacks while 2HKOing with their STAB Psychics / Blizzards / Drill Pecks / Fire Blasts respectively. Exeggutor is outsped though and has to watch out to not be put to sleep before attacking.

    Unparalyzed Alakazam, Jynx and Chansey (with Reflect) can switch into Venusaur as well and scare it out.

    In general, paralyzing Venusaur cuts it's potential greatly since it no longer outspeeds fast opposing paralyzed Psychic types like Alakazam, Jynx and Starmie (even though neither of them is safe to switch in depending on the move Venusaur choses on that turn) which makes it more susceptible to being revenge killed.

    Comparison to Victreebel

    Venusaur shares the same typing and has similar stats to Victreebel. In addition to that these are the only two pokemon in RBY that get Razor Leaf. That leads to them being quite similar. Nevertheless there are some noticable differences that I want to cover in this section. I will only focus on 1U relevant Pokemon when comparing the respective matchups.

    Let's have a look at the movepool:

    Moves that Venusaur gets that Victreebel does not (somewhat noticable, I won't include Tackle here): Leech Seed.

    Moves that Victreebel gets that Venusaur does not: Stun Spore, Wrap, Acid.

    So there is a clear advantage for Victreebel here since Stun Spore and Wrap are really great moves on their own but on top of that have a nice synergy as well, which enables Victreebel to not only run the set mentioned above for Venusaur but also a set including Wrap and Stun Spore. This set plays very differently from the SD set and is thus hard to compare to it. The fact that Victreebel is able to run two different sets effectively (which makes it less predictable) is what really sets the two Grass/Poison types apart and the reason Victreebel is more common in the metagame than Venusaur. Having made that clear, I will from now on in this comparison assume the SD set for both of them.

    Let's compare the stats:

    Venusaur and Victreebel have exactly the same special and HP stat which means that they are equally bulky on the special side while dealing the same amount of damage with their Razor Leaf attack. Victreebel hits 308 Atk (+46 compared to Venusaur), 228 Def (-36) and 238 Speed (-20).

    Where does the difference in atack come into play?

    Victreebel simply does more damage which is noticable at +2. It might enable it to being able to better afford running Body Slam (or even Acid, which is a clean 2HKO vs Exeggutor at +2) over Hyper Beam but overall Hyper Beam should still be used. The most notable differences are that Victreebel has a (very small though) chance to OHKO Chansey, a 50% chance to OHKO Jolteon and Persian and does not have to rely on a roll vs Alakazam at +2. At +4 it has a chance to OHKO Exeggutor, Zapdos (guaranteed after one Razor Leaf) and Tauros and does not have to rely on a roll vs Hypno with Hyper Beam in contrast to Venusaur. They both need 3 SDs to reach the maximum of 999 Atk and thus there is no advantage for Victreebel in that regard.

    Where does the difference in defense come into play?

    Mostly vs the Normal types of RBY. Ignoring critical hits, Venusaur almost always lives the combination of Tauros Blizzard plus Hyper Beam/Zapdos Drill Peck (and has a 50% chance to live Tauros Blizzard plus Snorlax Hyper Beam) while Victreebel almost always dies to said combinations. In addition Venusaur always lives Snorlax Body Slam+Hyper Beam (while having a good chance to live 3 Body Slams) while Victreebel only has a tiny chance to survive. Lastly Victreebel has a ~2/3 chance to be 2HKOed by Rhydon's Earthquake while Venusaur always survives.

    Where does the speed diference come into play?

    Venusaur outspeeds Victreebel which means it can go for Sleep Powder first in case of a 1v1. Most notable Pokemon that Venusaur outspeeds that Victreebel does not include Kingler, Nidoqueen, Cloyster (the latter speed ties with Victreebel). Additionally Venusaur speed ties with Kabutops and Dragonite (which can come in handy if you can sleep Dragonite before setting up).

    So overall the Swords Dance sets are pretty similar and it depends on what qualities you prefer for your Grass/Poison Pokemon, raw power and thus better chances at some KOs or not being KOed yourself as easily and if you value not having to risk a speed tie vs Cloyster or not.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
    Diegolh, Alexander, marcoasd and 2 others like this.
  2. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Your intro mentions that it has the most accurate sleep move in the game, which isn't technically true (Spore). C&C I feel could be a bit more fleshed out, particularly in terms of general stuff, namely targeting its numerous weaknesses and ideally outspeeding it. Jynx is a check if it avoids switching in on SD, Star can revenge kill. Slower Blizzard users become threats if Venu becomes paralysed. Idk, stuff like that
     
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  3. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    Fair points, edited something.
     
  4. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    If you want wrap support, go victreebel. If you want sword dance, go venusaur. Through my testing venusaur is a more reliable sword dancer. On speed alone I would choose venusaur over victreebel, but you also feel the advantage in defense too. I would never use hyper beam. It turns venusaur from a credible threat to a gimmick. It requires too much work from your other pokemon to work and its worse accuracy doesn't make it any better. Hyper beam should be replaced with body slam if you really want to have a team that you take seriously with venusaur on it. Hyper beam is only good in an ideal game where everything has been sufficiently weakened for him, but as we all know, games aren't always ideal. With hyper beam you are forced to use it against pokes who are resistant to razor leaf. This opens you up for attack and can cost you the game, IF it even hits. This is a set that could sweep some noobs, and some times you'll get lucky and catch a higher level player with an unsuspecting sweep, but those moments are few and far between. This move set is just not enough of a serious consistent threat.
     
  5. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Grass doesn't give Ground immunity, it gives Ground resistance.

    You face that many Cloysters and opposing Bels? Because I mean the crit rate doesn't matter between Swords Dance and Razor Leaf and there's bugger-all else in that speed bracket (except Dragonite, which sets up in Venusaur's face anyway).
     
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  6. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    Not sure what you understand under "Swords Dancer", but I assume a Pokemon whose primary use is settung up with SD and proceed to do the most damage it can using his physical attacks. (tried to keep it as general as possible, avoiding the word "sweep" to give you the benefit of the doubt)

    Two things where you are wrong here. First, Venusaur is not primarily a Swords Dancer, as much as it is a sleeper. Of course it can make use of the move, but if yo want a "Swords Dancer" than take Kingler or maybe Pinsir or Sandslash, because they in fact fill that role much better due to remakably higher Attack stats or STAB EQ respectively. Venusaur is primarily a sleeper, because the Combination of Razor Leaf and Sleep Powder give it something that sets it apart from Exeggutor (being able to score sleeps against Teams that use Starmie as their sleep blocker). However he shares that with Victreebel.

    Which brings me to the next point. Let's just assume for argument's sake that Venusaur is indeed a "Swords Dancer". First of all, your Claim that it is a better one than Victreebel is, let's say, ambitious. They are very similar regardless, but primary traits that are important for an SDer are speed and attack. Venusaur has more speed, but it hardly ever matters (only vs Cloy realistically, and you'll razor leaf that anyway). and the attack difference is very noticable (as i described in the comparison to Victreebel section).

    Secondly, your claim that one should run Body Slam over Hyper Beam, especially in the context that you describe him as a Swords Dancer is also very questionable. I mentioned in Other Options that it is an option, but it should definitely stay that way. From both perspectives (wether you look at Saur as a asleeper or SDer), Hyper Beam is surperior. For the SDer it should actually be self explanatory, you do barely good damage even after one SD. You're definitely not sweeping with Body Slam Venusaur, and if you do, it was not because you had Body Slam over Hyper Beam, but liekely because Razor Leaf is a good move. If you want to punch holes in the opposing Team with Venusaur using him as an SDer, you are better of just firing off a strong +2 Hyper Beam, because that can at least threaten a KO on some Opponents as opposed to Body Slam.

    But here's the real reason behind Hyper Beam: You are a sleeper, not an SDer! at 100% an Alakazam is KOed by +2 Hyper Beam 75% of the time (67.5% with accuracy). Also Pokemon like Chansey that might block your sleep will never run from Body Slam. Ergo, if you want any chance to sleep something on the opposing team when theyr sleep blocker is not Starmie, you are better off SDing when they try to block sleep and switch to PAR Zam/Chansey (if chipped) and threaten that Hyper Beam kill, because Body slam will not get you far.

    Now I could understand some reasoning behind Slam and Hyper Beam on one set 8dropping SD all together), but since that's not what you were talking about, I'll have to defend my set and have to reject any claims of Body Slam being the preferred option, simply because it's not true.

    Edit:
    Grass doesn't give Ground immunity, it gives Ground resistance.
    magic9mushroom, of course, corrected
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
    Disaster Area likes this.
  7. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    I’m a bit confused on the need to make a distinction on whether venusaur is a sleeper or an SDer if he has both moves, but that is beside the point. What I’m saying is very simple. Two body slams do more damage than one hyper beam. That is actually more important than it seems and comes into play often. This is, a lot of the time, the difference between you killing Tauros and Tauros killing you for example. Also the worse accuracy doesn’t help hyper beam.
     
  8. Dre89

    Dre89 Member

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    I think what Lusch is trying to say is that Venusaur’s main value comes from being a sleeper, not an SDer. It needs to be using sleep to justify a slot because kingler is a better mixed SDer.

    I’ve never seen the value in Venusaur though. It can’t really do much early because it can’t switch into much and doesn’t have wrap. It often has to be saved til end game and that point if it doesn’t sleep anything kingler would have been a better pick unless their stsrmie is still healthy.

    The only times where I see it being a better pick than bel or kingler is if you’re versing a wrap team, or if you’re intentionally trying to save your sleep til end game to hit Tauros or another high value non. At least endgame it’s superior bulk against normals gives it something meaningful over bel.
     
  9. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    That's how I play Venusaur. Late game. Usually. That might be where a lot of the difference of opinion is coming from. I've never really thought to compare kingler and venusaur, so I'd have to think about it. They're very different at first glance. Different typing, one is slower, one is much weaker against specials, crabhammer is less accurate and weaker, one has a sleep move and one doesn't. Very different pokes at first glance that I wouldn't ever think to compare.

    [Gen 1] OU replay: Chickonian vs. marcoasd - Pokémon Showdown I used to use kingler a lot. Here is a pretty boring match of me vs marcoasd. Pretty boring for a match between competent players. lol.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
  10. Dre89

    Dre89 Member

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    They’re both mixed SDers but kingler is better in virtually every meaningful regard except for sleep. Crabbammer and razor leaf both take the same amount of turns to KO Pokémon that aren’t weak to them. Kingler has much better attack, meaning at +2 hbeam is a guaranteed OHKO on zam and Chansey, and has a chance of OHKOing starmie, meaning it dies if it’s had any chip damage.

    If sleep clause is already activated, kingler is better against the normals because both Razor leaf and crabhammer 3hko lax and Tauros, but kingler has better physical bulk and isn’t weak to blizzard.

    It’s better against Rhydon too because it has better bulk to switch into it. It’s better against most Pokémon except for starmie and bro, and less common stuff like wrappers.

    Venusaur just doesn’t do enough damage at +2. It’s so hard to get a Pokémon to +2 and not crippled, that it needs to be OHKOing stuff because SDers die in two hits and are screwed once paralysed

    Starmie is the only meaningful difference aside from sleep. But it’s oretty hard to play without sleep early because it often means they have an extra psychic to play with.
     
  11. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    I don't like comparing them at all. The cloyster, starmie, slowbro, victreebel match up differences alone are enough to not compare them, but on top of that having a sleep move is a pretty big diffference. The turn after you sleep something you get to sd. That's pretty big.

    They both have pros and cons.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
  12. Dre89

    Dre89 Member

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    But if you somehow get Venusaur in against Tauros or lax without sleep clause activated, the most likely scenario is that they go to a statused Pokémon to eat the sleep powder. Unlike bel, Venusaur can’t wrap them, so most Pokémon can either status it or chunk it for half it’s health once they’ve switched in. You could mindgame and SD on the Tauros expecting the switch out, but that’s a 50/50 bit even then Venusaur’s inability to OHKO a lot of the meta at +2 means a lot of stuff has to be crippled first.

    Edit- It can definitely work but my point is bel has more attack, meaning it can OHKO certain threats, and it has the option of wrapping paralysed sleep powder absorbers depending if it runs wrap (which is admittedly hard to fit on a SD set).
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2019
  13. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    I watched a guy on showdown sword dance with victreebel to 4x attack and then wrap the other team to death xD . His move set was stun spore/ sleep powder/ wrap / sword dance. There are some freaking legends on showdown.

    I hate wrap. If it had 100% accuracy, it’d be great, but it has 85% accuracy anddd an 85% accurate move used repeatedly WILL miss eventually and one miss is all it takes to lose some times. But despite that I do recommend using wrap on victreebel of course.

    My problem with all this is that it is all too much theory fighting. We’re not making it clear what the battlefield looks like. What percentage is this Tauros on? What percentage am I on? What can he switch to and what is that pokemon’s condition like? So many questions. By the time I get my venusaur into play when I’m playing, the battlefield is usually a beautiful mess that my venusaur can make some good plays in.
     
  14. Dre89

    Dre89 Member

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    Sorry for the bump, but one thing that I think should be mentioned in the comparison with victrebel is that venusaur always survives two EQs from rhydon, whereas victrebel needs low rolls to survive from memory. Fairly important distinction because if you’re dropping exeggutor you probably don’t have a ground resist.
     
  15. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    Been right there all along ;]
     

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