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All Gens Trade-offs of our Tiering System

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Disaster Area, Mar 24, 2018.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

    May 4, 2014
    Likes Received:
    The goal of our tiering system is to create adequately balanced/deep1 tiers where, in the instance of each tier, as many of the Pokemon legal at that tiering level2 are legal in that tier, and to do so in a logical and coherent fashion.

    1 - The determination of what makes a tier adequately balanced/deep is obviously a meaningful point of discussion. In practice, what this means is that if a tier is not adequately balanced or deep, then we use bans to remedy this. See this discussion thread on banworthiness guidelines if you want to have a say on this topic.
    2 - By tiering level, in 1U, that implies we begin with no Pokemon banned and then make bans from there. In 2U and below, it implies that we begin with the only illegal Pokemon being those which are determined to be adequately viable in the tier above, and then make bans from there.

    Let me discuss why, as a consequence of this, our tiering system does not allow non-transitive bans, and why complex bans are best avoided for the sake of simplicity if for nothing else. It is worth noting that in some cases one may argue that having a non-transitive ban or a complex ban would lead to a better tiering outcome; that may be the case, but if we were to do that, then there would be trade-offs, as I discuss below. Ultimately, if the community decides that the trade-offs are worth it, then we can do these things, but I want to be absolutely sure that players understand the consequences of doing non-transitive or complex bans before choosing to implement them.

    Non-Transitive Bans - Non-transitive bans are bans that occur in one tiering level and then don't occur on a subsequent tiering level. An example of a possible non-transitive ban is banning Wrap from RBY 2U, and then permitting it in RBY 3U.

    It is worth noting that because of the nature of non-transitive bans, there is no realistic case where players would want a non-transitive ban of a Pokemon. For example, Mew is banned from RBY 1U, and it would be absurd to allow it in RBY 2U but have it banned in RBY 2U: it would be broken in RBY 2U too (if anything, it would be more broken than in RBY 1U). When the goal is primarily to tier Pokemon, then, ban transitivity is a very natural thing.

    If we did allow non-transitive bans, it would make the tiering system logically incoherent, as well as far more complicated, both to describe, and to understand.

    I jocularly depicted this aspect of the tiering system using Rowlet matryoshka in this thread.

    Complex Bans - Complex bans are not explicitly disallowed by the tiering system, but there are consequences to allowing them. Quite simply, if a complex ban of some sort is done, then, since the goal of the tiering system requires that "as many of the Pokemon legal at [a given] tiering level are legal in that tier", we are forced to evaluate every single Pokemon ban we have and ask whether or not doing a complex ban of a similar nature would make them no longer banworthy.

    Hence, complex bans are very much a "last resort", and I ask that, if we do choose to do them, that we explain explicitly the reasons why it is acceptable in that case in a way which gives us a standard which can be applied to that of all other banned Pokemon.
    Eseque and Linkin Karp like this.

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