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GSC OU (OverUsed) This is the best gsc team I've used.

Discussion in 'Public Teams' started by Roostur, Apr 24, 2017.

  1. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    As of now credit goes to Borat for this team. Though take that with a grain of salt because if this isn't his creation it would make it the third or fourth team he has put a claim on that wasn't actually his.

    Raikou: reflect/roar/thunderbolt/rest

    Snorlax: belly drum/ double edge/ curse / rest

    Zapdos: thunder/ rest / hidden power ice / sleep talk

    Umbreon: toxic / rest / charm / pursuit

    Cloyster: toxic, spikes, rapid spin, surf

    Skarmory: drill peck, curse, whirl wind, rest

    The move sets aren't set in stone and can be changed. I change them pretty often. Also, zapdos can be replaced with suicune though zapdos covers a little more I think. This team was the nail in the coffin for aggressive team roostur and also why I don't play as much anymore because unfortunately i'm not a patient person. I was already leaning toward the conclusion that stall teams were the optimal play style but this sealed the deal. I feel like in the current meta that a lot of players are getting away with murder with certain aggressive teams because there aren't as many stall players as there use to be back in the day. If there were I think people would drop aggressive teams. I feel like when I focus and don't make any mistakes (and i don't mean calling 50/50s right the whole game, i don't consider guessing wrong a mistake) i can't lose with this team. Against aggressive teams anyway. Against aggressive teams this is really a one player game and it is just on you not to mess up. But if you were to fight another stall team and you both played optimally (which will almost never happen due to the playing field of gen 2 being pretty shallow due to it being an old gen and most people not considering pokemon a real competitive game because of the luck factors) then you would pp stall and the better player would be whoever could do their long term math better.
    What I really like about this team is the coverage. In pokemon team building you are always trying to plug holes, but everytime you plug a hole another one pops up. Team building is just an endless cycle of hole plugging and compromise. This team covers everything amazingly though. There is nothing it can't take care of. Just because this is the best team I have used doesn't mean it is the best team. I didn't say it was the best team period. But I do believe that the basic stall structure is the best.
    The only other player I've really seen use this team is Conflict. He uses a mean look umbreon instead of the standard though. I personally don't think it is optimal. It is not bad like most people think. Mostly mean look is used by scrubs who just spam it and get no where because they just keep mean looking skarmory. But if you are a pro then you will abuse your opponents predictability with a switch of your own. Abusing the threat of mean look is the idea. It is a cool choice, but I think the standard is at least slightly more effective and will ultimately lead to more damage done to your opponent. At least that is how it has played out in my experience.
    I didn't really start this thread with a well thought out point . I just thought there would be at least 1 obscure person on the internet who cares what I think about how Gen 2 should be played optimally and what I think is a good team to use to play competitively. Borat showed people how to play aggressive and I think people for the most part really enjoy the faster pace gameplay because we all have lives (again, which is why I don't play as much which might mean that stall is ultimately not healthy for the growth of the game) but I really don't have many doubts any more when it comes to aggressive vs stall. Aggressive teams don't have a sure fire way to break stall (that right there should be the end of the stall vs aggressive arguement) and have to take a lot of risks, whereas stall teams get to play much safer, and most of the time they only need to take down one poke to win. After that you simply have to react to win. If luck wasn't part of this game, winning with stall would be brain dead easy. But having to consider crits and what not when making a calculated move makes things a bit harder.


    Anyway. If you want to be a fag and waste your opponents precious time and your own, or win a tournament, this is a good team to do it with.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017
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  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    That formatting,,,
     
  3. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Hey, overall it looks quite solid, although I could potentially see Machamp being problematic, since your only real checks are Zap and Skarm, which is a bit shaky, although they're definitely fine under most circumstances

    I'm a little curious about that Raikou set tho, like it's hard to imagine the lack of Rest being easy to work with
     
  4. FriendOfMrGolem120

    FriendOfMrGolem120 aka. "FOMG" Member

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    I think this team is interesting. Maybe Raikou should have Rest and it was just a mistake in writing the moves down. I don´t know. I always used Raikou with Rest because I think it is just more solid.
    Some things might be a bit dangerous for this team, like Cloyster with HpElectric and Misdreavus with Rest. I don´t know the odds of winning a "Spikes-War" between this team and another defensive one. If your Cloyster gets poisoned and your opponent has a Miltank to get rid of their Cloyster´s poison, I think you would need to weaken it with Umbreon.
    I believe your assessment that this team has a good matchup against most offensive teams is reasonable but I think there could be some defensive builds that would give this team a hard time.
    However, no team is perfect and I tend to be a bit pessimistic about every team.
    I think you used Rest on Cloyster for this team at least once, which I found a quite interesting choice.
     
  5. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Doesn't this belong in Public Teams?
     
  6. Ariel Rebel

    Ariel Rebel #1 rsutton23 Fan Member

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    After we played, I tried a variant of this team (the rest cloyster one & raikou also had rest) and got into 2 long games. One hit turn 250 something and the other was in the high 300's.

    Aggravating to play against, but just as aggravating to play with. I quickly abandoned this after learning that I didn't like double electric (personally, not as in the idea being bad), so I ended up calling Raikou "good electric" and that bird thing "bad electric" out of frustration.
     
  7. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Sorry guys. I changed the raikou set. It was suppose to have rest on it. But like I said, none of the sets are set in stone. Change them. The sets I posted aren't necessarily the optimal sets. They are just the ones I was using when I last played this team. As of now I am unsure of what the optimal sets should be. I used this team to win mt 20. My strategy was to play a slow game first to wear my opponent down and to also get a feel for how he likes to play, then my second game I was going to use a fast aggressive team to change up the pace and run them over. I didn't have any game 3 plans so it is really fortunate that they were all 2-0s . Tbh though I consider my strategy to be cutting corners. I could have just went the whole tournament with just this solo team. It was the only one I was practicing and I had a note book of dos and don'ts with the team. I really was trying to formulate everything. I don't think anyone was going as try hard as me so I don't think it mattered if I was predictable with what team I used.

    Mr Golem, i think rest on cloyster might be better than toxic cloyster, but I really miss being able to hit opposing cloysters with toxic when I use rest. I can't make my mind up about which one I like better. Probably rest cloyster. I'm also not 100% certain that my umbreon set is better than the mean look one. It has performed better for me but I'm still not completely sure. I think this team is fine against opposing spike teams. You just need a lot of patience. A team like the one you use (misdreavous cloyster combo) will start off with the advantage and the tempo. But I've found that tempo doesn't matter in stall vs stall. A lot of the time you don't want the tempo. I've noticed fighting movie about cancer that some times he'll gain tempo and start roaring my team to weaken them with spikes. But all my pokes are bulky and can rest off the damage so what happens a lot of the time is that he just wastes all his roars for nothing which would give you the advantage in the pp war. That is just an example of how you don't really need tempo. I think borat was right when he said the goal with stall really is to just not lose. You don't necessarily want to beat your opponent, you want to waste his resources. You're kind of cheating the game.

    Ortheore, Zapdos and Skarmory handle machamp just fine. Especially with reflect up. They definitely win that match up

    Aerial Rebel, you are totally right. I think this team can beat any body, including yourself. This team beat me countless times after I won mt 20. My goal is to wear my opponent down but what happens a lot of the time is that I just wear myself down, then I lose focus, and when I lose focus I make misplays. And yeah, if I'm only going to use one electric I always use raikou. Raikou is my favorite poke in the game actually. People say lax is the best but I think Raikou is the most consistent poke in the game. The quality of lax's performance from game to game can vary, but I feel like Raikou's performance from game to game is always spot on. I love that poke.
     
  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Yeah, I'll move it.
     
  9. sulcata

    sulcata Member

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    dont like the team much at all. maybe it was good at a different point in the meta, idk. no way to get around a rest missy. doesn't really wall more offensive teams either without anything to resist vap surfs, skarm being your only explosion resist, etc. machamp looks like it could molest things if you're not careful about your rest turns and status. overall the team just looks like it's waiting to be crit.

    doesnt feel like the team really does anything, and doesnt seem like the team has great means of preventing the opponent from doing things. seems like it tries to do both and ends up doing neither.

    the team probably gets better results in random ladder matches where people dont run vaporeon and tend to boom predictably
     
  10. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Looks pretty solid defensively; definitely functional as a "switch in; switch out" type staller I can't really see any holes in it. Sunny Doom/ Moltres could hurt you as you have no fire resistance, Rhydon/Golem get some free hits in, with only really having to worry about sucking a pursuit. Destroyer teams are not your problem; other stall teams are. 5 of the 6 pokes are only carrying mono type attacks and theres no xplosions so you cant really do much to mix up the match tempo other than searching for an opening to drum or just hoping for the opponent to make a mistake? What do you do against Bobs Toxic lax or a last poke curselax? I mean you could charm it I guess until the opponent gets bored and quits but i'm not seeing too many ways of actually killing a Snorlax? All the offense lies with lax alone here, if it sucks a boom you're gonna struggle to gain much damage. Dont get me wrong it looks like an incredibly tough team to beat, but if I were playing against it I would be aiming to blow up Raikou & Umbreon; they are the defensive backbone & once they're gone you've lost pretty much the only thing this team does; defend.
     
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  11. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    a) I've never seen one of those.
    b) No, it can't directly kill it. However, a sleeping Missy has difficulty blocking Cloy's Spin, and it's going to run out of Mean Looks eventually. That said, a Lax set that isn't totally neutered by Gengar/Missy would be nice.
    Eh. There's two Electrics for Vap, and it's not like there are many Water resists that actually beat Vap in the first place (I mean, he does technically have Cloy, not that it helps). Umbreon can pretend to be an Explosion resist in a pinch with Charm, and if you pick your looks well Explosion doesn't always do the trick.
     
  12. sulcata

    sulcata Member

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    no i mean:
    rest/thunder/toxic/thief
    it has a better chance of actually doing something compared to most missy that just sit and try to cray or double protect. tbh I kind of like it better than standard perish trapping. lax will never get around that with this team tbh.

    umbreon doesnt resist explosion, it prevents them from clicking it. if you have something threatened by an explosion, skarm is your only switch in unless you're sacking. I guess he's got reflect, but idk.

    Egg, Roarcune, random explosion, LS starmie, etc are all good against vap. I mean I really wouldn't consider raikou to be that much of a check if its not stalk, unboosted surf can put it in a rest loop if it gets low enough and vap is healthy enough to take a tbolt. Zapdos will almost always be forced to click rest eventually by taking the attacks of the rest of the team, in which case hitting thunder out of stalk is annoying, and I think vaporeon has a better shot at it then. This is assuming no explosions hit either electric too. I mean it's not like vap just comes in and wins, but it has very doable win conds to sweeping.
     
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  13. Ariel Rebel

    Ariel Rebel #1 rsutton23 Fan Member

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    Misdreavus carrying rest is a thing now. It is rampant on the ladder after it made its appearance in SPL.
     
  14. sulcata

    sulcata Member

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    It's always been a thing. I know I've been seeing it for at least 3 years. I've had m dragon use it on me a few times.
     
  15. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Without Mean Look/Perish Song Missy can be Pursuited by Umbreon. It's not exactly a cakewalk for Umby, but I wouldn't say the team has "no way around it".

    That Lax set is bad on this team, though, I absolutely agree. Mixed or Toxic Lax is probably the best IMO since there's no Beller for DrumLax.

    Egg vs. Vap is a rather iffy matchup for both in all honesty. Roar Cune and LS Starmie do work against the usual variants (Roar gets past both) but Starmie is the poster-child for "hard to fit on a team".
     
  16. sulcata

    sulcata Member

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    Umbreon Pursuit vs. Misdreavus: 73-86 (22.6 - 26.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
    I'd never try perish trapping an umbreon. They can just trap back if they're mean look and choose what they want to trade with.

    I wouldn't necessarily say you need a beller for drumlax. I think the lack of being able to touch that missy set hurts a lot.

    Egg is a fine matchup. Ice Beam isn't common and if it's carrying that then Lax checks it much more easily. Cloyster blowing up is also an option.

    Roar won't get past suicune unless it's some weird Roar Ice Beam/Mirror Coat set. Suicune can just toxic and wait to switch raikou in, or roar on the forced rest. I don't think roar gets past light screen starmie either. It only really has a chance if it roars the turn light screen wears off and manages to crit you upon switching in.

    Ice Beam and Roar are usable, but nobody ever uses them and they've rarely worked from the few cases I've seen; maybe Ice Beam has worked out a few times. I really wouldn't pay them much attention.
     
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  17. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Giga Drain is only 40% to 3HKO, and it's got 8 PP. Leech Seed is better, but it's not exactly standard. Sleep Talk can prevent 3HKOs from going through. Explosion draws unless Acid Armour. Like I said, iffy for both.
    Raikouing the Rest could work. Roaring the Rest doesn't work, because Vap can Rest after Roaring Suicune out and then use Roar while asleep to block Suicune's.
    That's what I was referring to, yes. Surf has the PP to repeat the manoeuvre until you get the crit. Hydro Pump does enough damage that you don't even need a crit (although you do need two consecutive hits, and Hydro Pump kinda sucks without Sleep Talk).
     
  18. sulcata

    sulcata Member

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    You can still Psychic or if worse comes to worse and it gets really good sleep talk rolls and you get bad damage rolls, then Explode. If it's Acid Armor then just spam Psychic.

    Not if the toxic damage would kill vaporeon, or if the toxic damage will bring it so low that anything outspeeds and KOs it. Vaporeon is pretty slow. You don't need to bring kou in on the rest, it 2HKOs with whatever you pick and roar vaporeon can't run resttalk so there's no risk.

    Light Screen Starmie still beats roar vaporeon without a fair amount of luck. And in a last mon situation you can sack mons to prevent Roar. Regardless, Light Screen still beats standard vaporeon sets with or without luck and roar vaporeon is still not proven nor common enough to think about in teambuilding to begin with.
     
  19. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Yeah. That is the point. The goal isn't to have a fun battle with the opponent, it is to make both of you miserable and win. Defense is better than offense in this game. By what degree it is better is debatable but I think defense is definitely better. I don't care that I don't have any super aggressive pokes. Aggressive pokes on a defensive team usually doesn't work. I mean the classic wak, miltank, bd lax team is an example of a defensive team with an offensive poke on it but I really think that team is outdated and not optimal. Suicune might be better than zapdos on this team. I used suicune in place of zapdos a lot and liked it. That takes care of bob lax easily. And yeah after killing raikou and umbreon the team would definitely be done. Just killing one of those pokes would probably mean death for the team if you play right. But that is pokemon. The goal is to not let your opponent do that.
     
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  20. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Haha yeah I always feel my stomach drop when I see this layout team; there was a guy on pokemon online who used a very similair team only with Blissey instead of Zapdos, 2 of the 6 were just screeners with no attacks at all and the other 4 were mono attack lol. I don't think I ever saw that team kill anything yet on the flip side I don't think I ever saw it lose either! It's things like that make me say sleep trap & OHKO should be unbanned; because its just too inviting to make 6 Rest screeners for the effect of doing nothing but not dying, and that would work under the current structure in GSC. In fairness this team does look a far cry from that; everything is capable of killing something it does look like it has some good offensive pace & capabilities. Might give it a try at some point. How do you like that lax set? I've been meaning to give it a go for a while, never really found somewhere to fit it properly yet.
     
  21. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    I think i'd put Lovely Kiss on lax, just cuz it needs a sleeper & Explosion on Cloyster because it'll give this team more confidence to kill lax or quickly switch the tempo up if you find yourself in a tight spot.
     
  22. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    I like it. Lovely kiss bd lax is the best though. Lovely kiss bd lax just wrecks teams. It is just so good. It'll flat out just win you games some times. But this set is good. It lets you belly drum easier. It beats miltank and umbreon easy. It can also kill curse skarmory, and non curse skarmory is just useless against it. Also because you have curse you don't always have to be at full health to feel comfortable belly drumming against certain pokes.

    I wasn't a pokemon player back in the day, but because I hear it was stall dominated it gives me the impression that we have regressed overall in terms of optimal play. Obviously there aren't as many players and a lot of players have quit and we just have to accept it will never be as popular and the competition will never be as stacked. In any game that has a scene that dies off for the most part, there is going to be a loss in the skill it takes to win. I imagine there were more people striving to be the best back then and they were pushing each other to play the game the best it could be played. It'd be interesting to see how the meta would change if every tournament had a thousand dollars on the line.
     
  23. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Oh this was a couple of years ago on p.o.
     
  24. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Slowbro - Toxic, flame thrower, rest, growl

    Raikou- thunderbolt, reflect, crunch, rest

    Blissey- growl, toxic, soft boiled, heal

    Forretress- rest, reflect, spikes, toxic

    donphan- earthquake, roar, rapid spin, rest

    suicune- roar, surf, rest, toxic

    after going to many different old websites I've found that this was Celia's main team. I think this guy is a genius. This player is my pkemon gsc inspiration. I really would love to optimize this team and replace some pokes but I love the idea here. I really think this game can be broken by making a defensive team so bulky that if you have the patience and the know-how you can win every time. The way I see pokemon gsc at its peak, if it were to ever get there, is playing bulky teams with no excessive offense. Only put offense where it is absolutely needed. After that it is just a matter of making sure you can keep spikes down so there is not an infinite stall war. The first person to make the best team to do this will become the best player of all time. And after experimenting a little I'm actually starting to believe that snorlax might not be on that perfect team. When you stop thinking about how to win at this game and instead think about how to not lose you start seeing the game a lot differently.
     
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  25. Ariel Rebel

    Ariel Rebel #1 rsutton23 Fan Member

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    Drumlax with a fire move is an issue for this team. The calcs suggest that Forry can rest loop the EQ or mono variant barring crits. Otherwise, Drumlax with Double Edge gets by everything else. Drumlax with Return is reliant on rolls and spikes. And then it's off to the races to see who heals up to repeat the process. With Belly Drum PP being 16 and Heal Bell PP being 8, I don't see a long term solution to this particular lax set.
     
  26. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    I played with the team before and I can tell you that it is far from perfect. Some things about it need to be changed but you have to understand that it is a very old team that was used in a different meta and before the electrics were allowed to have hidden power ice and water which made pokes like donphan a lot better than he is now.

    Also, drum lax is just a problem for every team. Not specifically just this one. The only "counter" pokemon to drum lax is reflect haze dragonite, and in my opinion that poke with that set sucks. It alwaysssss dies to a crit. It's whole goal is to be a wall but it WILL get critted and it WILL die. So the only counter to drum lax is just keeping it from being at full health.
     
  27. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    I absolutely agree man Assassin Celia is hands down the best Gen2 player out there, I don't think any GSCer worth their weight who was unfortunate enough to face him back in the day would disagree. It isn't just his teams that sets him apart from the rest, its how he uses them and his extraordinary ability to predict how every move of the game is going to go from turn 1. I fought against this team a few times back in the day, I even managed to beat him twice (not that that matters but i'm not turning down an opportunity to spit bragging rights on that lol). Before you get too hung up on the in depth analysis of this team there's a few things I should mention here:

    1. This was from the pre PCNY moves era, and that changes a lot of things. No growtheons so simply walling specials with Blissey was a much more common practise back then. Snorlax was infinitely easier to defend against before it had Lovely Kiss. No special attention was needed for Nidoking as he didn't have a sleep move either.

    2. Curse was banned on Snorlax. Yet Belly Drum wasn't lol. This means no strategy needed for curselaxs or sleep laxes which radically changes team structures & strategies.

    3. Hidden power legendaries were also banned in that era; that combined with point 2. seemed to manifest itself as Donphan being on almost every team as well as ground types in general being overpowered. As soon as the Curselax & HP legendaries ban was rescinded Donphan pretty much disappeared.

    4. Sleep Perish trap was not banned giving enormous demand for that Crunchtalk Raikou, on top of the fact it was disallowed from carrying Hidden Power.

    Just some things to think about as i'd imagine Celia himself would tell you that team would not be overly suitable or competitive in the current Gen 2 metagame.
     
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  28. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Actually I must fess up I don't remember him using that slowbro? I'm thinking I saw perish trap Gengar over that? For some reason ice beam over growl on blissey is resonating. Where did you find this out of curiousity?
     
  29. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    3 different websites. Neoseeker, Serebii, and this one Board Message . I had to make an account to see that last one. But all three websites posted the same team.

    I've also heard borat say that celia liked using slobro
     
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  30. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Lol. That is so funny that curse was banned. I WISH snorlax's only used curse. That is a thousand times more easier to deal with than belly drum. It is funny because this team actually deals with curselax pretty well. It has a much harder time dealing with drumlax. The most outdated thing about this team is definitely donphan. He is just not a reliable pokemon anymore thanks to hidden power electrics. He would definitely have to be replaced. Slobro is interesting. I've been using him. I still don't know what my opinion on him is yet.
     
  31. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    It was a different mentality of playing, 200+ rounds was pretty much a given. These teams were just stacked with pokes that could survive a +5 return fron lax and be able to out stall/ phaze it, rest, pull out the beller, heal bell and repeat. It was almost like a race timing the rest bell loops, but it worked at rendering snorlax unable to gain ground against anything. You'd have thought belly drum/ double edge lax would be just the thing to break the stall, but for one reason or another you just rarely saw it used or work. I think when you KNOW the only kind of boost lax can pull against you is a drum and it cant sleep you, it changes the methodology to deal with it; you just hit with attacks from bulky pokes you know can tank unboosted hits and that really inhibits the breathing space you need to pull a drum off. So a lax drums, loses what 261 hp, eq from Donphan does say av. 170 hp, thats 431hp off lax's 523, leaving 92hp, (124 after leftovers). Takes 96hp recoil from ko'ing Donphan, leaving lax with 28 hp (64hp after leftovers) to take out a Donphan, and this is assuming it was a fresh lax with no switch in or spikes damage. So basically it just didn't work, it was almost guaranteed to kill your lax and you may as well use selfdestruct instead. Yeah I actually think the no curselax rule just played out to be counter constructive. But thats also how I know this team was designed for that era. Imho it is not designed to handle many things in the current metagame; kisslax, Nidoking, growtheons. Also it was from the stall mentality of "you absolutely dont let a single poke die or the team doesn't function", the aggresive explosion strategies weren't such a big thing. I mean I may well be wrong, you'll have to test it but I can see a lot of things that team cant handle now.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
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  32. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Though I suspect that slowbro is there purely for dealing with curselax actually, thats probably why I dont remember it. I guess it makes sense to have all your stats stacked away from speed when you still outspeed a cursed lax. Slowbro is actually very bulky.

    Yeah actually this team is retrofitted to take curselaxs isn't it, thats what the growl on blissey is all about too.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
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  33. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    He can also be a good machamp counter if machamp isn't using hp bug. I've been testing my own version of this team a little. Nidoking actually hasn't given me problems with this team YET. Suicune deals with him pretty well, especially if you switch out roar for sleep talk. The Rest forretress set can also deal with nidoking pretty well if you absolutely can't send in suicune. Nidoking has to hit thunder four times to kill forretress and some are bound to miss and you can just keep resting.
     
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  34. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    I guess thats true, and when you factor in Forry its got pretty rounded coverage of all 3 elementals and any pair Nidoking might be carrying. Taking a Thunder para could upset the rythem but not easily I guess. But Nidoking does cash in on forcing a switch; check is brought in as it l.kisses, switch out primary check for Forry as it thunders, then what do you do with Forry? Reflect? As Nidoking is switched out to a zapdos; Thunder from zapdos pretty much puts you in KO range, or does if spikes are down, you're forced to switch out, then Forry is carrying that damage for the next switch in. Raikou wont revenge hit it well with crunch, then at best you have a speed tie with suicune, i'm not sure how well blissey can just stall it as it cant threaten and Nidoking can just freeze spam in response. I don't think that slowbro will stop it. Sleep talk on suicune will solve this but really opens you up to vaporeon set ups; raikou will be the only thing to stop it taking out the entire team.

    A jolteon with growth, thunder, hp ice, substitute only needs Donphan to be put to sleep once and it could set up and take out everything. That's kinda the downside of the super defensive, passive teams; it gives the opponent a lot of openings for setups and strategically putting exploders in place.
     
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  35. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    You said you saw celia use a perish song gengar? Do you know what the exact set was?
     
  36. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Lol that was me with a psuedo name you just went against with that growtheon team. You changed Donphan for dragonite.

    Mean look, hypnosis, perish song, protect
    I'm pretty sure that was the team I saw. I think the Celia team you cited must be for a sleep trap ban, but curselax allowed. He'd never run reflect over sleep talk on that raikou if there were sleep perish trappers on the prowel.
     
  37. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Yeah. Like I said in my earlier post in this thread, dragonite always dies to crits. It is a crit magnet. But at least the team was doing its job until then lol. That is why I put sleep talk on dragonite, but I got double critted anyway lol.

    Yeah, actually there were minor differences to the team's move sets depending on what website I was on. On one of the websites reflect was replaced with sleep talk on raikou and for whatever reason toxic on slowbro was replaced with zap cannon with one version of the team. But other than that the move sets were all the same.

    What do you think about replacing donphan with gengar?
     
  38. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Haha yeah I was gonna say the problem with that dragonite is it has a crit fetish. I couldn't break the team open as clinically as I was expecting to I must admit, but with these teams once one goes the rest get easier to topple. Sorry I couldn't chat, cant juggle battle & chat on my phone while driving lol.

    Gengar over Donphan? Tch hard to say, depends what you want it to do as the sleep trap set is out the question. I think the real question is what does it do for the team? I've been fairly open that i'm not overly convinced its the right approach for the current meta, but to put a ghost there, hmm:
    Keep Donphan; you need it for balance & punishing sleeping laxen. Take Slowbro out, some of the following might work:

    Gengar: mean look, Thunder, perish song, destiny bond (or could go c.ray or protect over d.bond)

    Or, and this would probably be better suited to the all out stall nature of the team;
    Misdreavus: Toxic, theif, Thunder, destiny bond.
    (I dont see much need for rest as you have a beller)

    Though my honest opinion if you're gonna use a team like this it needs some kind of offense strategy, even if just a passive one like having many pokes with Toxic; that'll synergise well with rest belling. Or just focusing on making a perish trapper the key piece I.e. Using the other Pokemon to spread paralysis and offer screen support, then use parafusion perish trap to pick them off.

    My old skool back in the day team was; Raikou, Starmie, Donphan, Skarmory, Jynx, Blissey. It was just a typical stall that use Jynx to just pick everything off with sleep perish trap, and it worked ok. If I was going to adapt that team & ideology for modern GSC it would probably look something like this:

    Raikou: Reflect, Thunderbolt, HP ice, Rest

    Starmie: Rapid Spin, Thunder Wave, Surf, Recover

    Snorlax: Curse, Body Slam, Rest, Sleep Talk

    Skarmory: Drill Peck, Whirlwind, Rest, (Toxic/Theif/Curse)

    Blissey: Light Screen, Sing, Heal Bell, Softboiled

    Misdreavus/Gengar: Mean Look, Confuse Ray, Perish Song, Protect

    No idea how well that would work in practise but the theory seems functional for a stall team. Hopefully that gives you some ideas mate :)
     
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  39. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    And one last thing i should prob mention; there is a "current" version of that early Celia style stall team thats considered standard;

    Zapdos, Forretress, Suicune, Snorlax, Misdreavus, Blissey

    Forry sets up Reflect then Suicune is the phazer. Iffy lax defense if you ask me but its proven pretty successful
     
  40. Ariel Rebel

    Ariel Rebel #1 rsutton23 Fan Member

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    For all the recent stall teams (barring the one you just posted Jame$ G), I don't think they are going to fare well on the ladder. Too many players using growth-pass for it to be effective. Also, the other random wallbreakers on there can neuter your team.

    I might be inclined to use a stall team like those ones in a tournament setting in a matchup where I know my opponent. The ladder being random (for the most part), I wouldn't want to risk losing just on matchup alone (especially if it's to a low ELO player).

    Of the games I played with Roostur, I found that the team is a lot more vulnerable to a crit than with other teams. Once the first piece is down, it's a matter of dropping the other pieces one by one. This generally holds true for a lot of GSC matchups, but the effect of this is much clearer when playing these stall teams. I still hate the drumlax matchup if the lax has a fire move. That's the hardest thing for you to deal with.
     
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  41. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    True. To be fair though, Blissey should never be dying to a crit. Especially not to zapdos. I should have soft boiled when I was below half health instead of being greedy and heal belling. Blissey dying was more my fault than the team's fault. And then after Blissey died everything crumbled like it always does. And yeah, I can see where fire drumlax can be a problem. That is one of the reasons I replaced donphan with dragonite. I still really like dragonite on this team. If the stupid thing was just bulkier he'd be perfect. But he isn't.
     
  42. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    There's a lot of players I highly respect say Blisseys useless. I'm not sure agree 100%. I find it works well for supporting a drumlax, also useful for bouncing specials if you want a team with no snorlax.
     
  43. FriendOfMrGolem120

    FriendOfMrGolem120 aka. "FOMG" Member

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    Some days ago I started to write down some thoughts about that team but then my computer crashed and I did not feel motivated to do it again until now. Personally I like the concept of this and similar teams very much - having bulky pokes that try to wall everything and let Spikes + a little bit of chip damage wear down some of the opponents pokemon. One major focus of mine when building such a team is trying to get an advantage (or be at least even) in the Spiker/Spinner-matchup. When both players are playing these kind of teams and one of them can never realistically keep Spikes down/spin and the other one has good chances to do so eventually the game is pretty much over in my opinion. And that is one major flaw I see in this team (I know that it might be a bit outdated and some changes would be made when adjusting it to the current metagame) - If your opponent has a Forretress with Rapid Spin and lots of Rest pokemon (Raikou, Snorlax, Suicune,Skarmory, Forretress and whatever for instance) it is a stalemate at best. There is no way you can prevent the opponent´s Forry from coming in against yours and spin immediately. Cloyster combined with Miltank/Blissey would give this team also a bit of trouble I think.
    Anyways, I had some ideas for a team but did not came up with great results yet but I may ask one of you for some test games/your opinion when I see you on Showdown.
     
  44. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Well the goal for me is to pp stall. If spikes + offense kills my opponent's pokes then that is great, but the main reason for spikes is to make sure that they can't infinite double switch. I need them to waste pp. That is the main goal for me. But yeah you are right about the spinning thing. This team maybe could use a ghost.
     
  45. sulcata

    sulcata Member

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    Even then your team would be way too passive to keep out a pursuiter played halfway decently. I mean what are you dropping for missy/gengar? Raikou?
     
  46. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Yeah, true. The only gengar that would work is the hypnosis perish trap gengar that james g spoke of but that isn't allowed. The more I play this team the more I understand I'm underestimating the creator of it. It is actually pretty good as is. I thought donphan would suck but he is actually pretty good. At first I thought "well celia was probably using him as an electric counter because there were no hidden power electrics back then, so he probably isn't as good now" but actually he never has to see electrics thanks to the combined stall power of blissey and raikou. The least contributing poke on the team is definitely slowbro. He does contribute, especially when there is a machamp and he is good for curse lax, but he just doesn't always contribute as much as the other pokes every game. If any poke is to be replaced by anything it would be him. But he isn't bad. But I fear the day I run into belly drum flame thrower lax. So I've been experimenting.
     
  47. FriendOfMrGolem120

    FriendOfMrGolem120 aka. "FOMG" Member

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    I have played some games with the team (using HpFire on Forry over Toxic, just like you did recently) and I want to share some new thoughts about it. Forretress can´t wall any BellyDrumLax anymore because you can´t put a poison clock on the lax. Marowak is troublesome espeacially a Rest version of it (combined with a heal beller). You can´t pressure many spinners with your Spiker (only other Forretresses). Ariel Rebel and I came to the conclusion that it might be a good option of changing Slowbro for Dragonite (even though he was useful in some cases) and using Spikes, Toxic, Rest and HpFire on Forretress.
     
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  48. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    That actually sounds like a reasonable change. But man do I hate dragonite. Me and him aren't on good terms. He has lost me one too many games. I was just getting to like slowbro. It does sound like it might be for the best though.

    EDIT But I can see it now. Dragonite uses reflect. Snorlax uses double edge. double edge . double edge. double edge. double edge crit. dragonite dies. That always happens.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
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  49. FriendOfMrGolem120

    FriendOfMrGolem120 aka. "FOMG" Member

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    Hmm... Maybe you could also consider Skarmory. That would cover BellyDrumLax, Marowak as well as Machamp (even though I never played with any better Machamp answer than Slowbro).
     
  50. Ariel Rebel

    Ariel Rebel #1 rsutton23 Fan Member

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    I've had a chance to speak with a number of players about your recent teams, Roostur. None of which was more detailed than what I went through with FriendofMrGolem120. A few others either gave praise to your team or outright said it was bad without much more of an explanation.

    Your Forry set leaves you open to either spin cloyster or spin forry. For a team like this, winning the spikes war is critical and you need to make that your first priority. There are still come other spinners out there who wall you like Tentacruel and Starmie to a lesser extent.

    Forry should carry HP Fire for opposing Forry and toxic for opposing Cloyster. That means rest and spikes are your other moves. By giving up reflect here, you have to give up Slowbro (if you don't, Drumlax becomes much more of a problem than it already is) for either Dragonite or Skarmory.

    This is a subject of debate that myself and FriendofMrGolem120 had at length. My position is that Dragonite is the superior choice (set: Rest / Reflect / Haze / Coverage Move). Just those 3 moves alone beats the majority of lax sets. Machamp doesn't get by this ever. For Marowak, Dragonite and Cune share the load to deal with him depending on what kind of support the Marowak has.

    Skarmory doesn't cover as many lax sets and machamp sets as Dragonite does. The presence of a fire move on lax or Machamp is all it takes to scare away Skarm. Skarm shines in the Marowak matchup and offers a lot more than Dragonite here.

    Another spot I found that Dragonite shines is in the Growthporeon matchup. Skarm doesn't take hits from Growthporeons well. Dragonite resists Vaporeon (most common, which is a huge bonus over Skarm. I don't expect that Skarm would be your main answer here though as you have Roar cune. The advantage to having Dragonite is that it provides another means to answer Growthporeons if Cune is taking a nap after having dealt with another threat.

    I'd personally adjust the Raikou and Suicune sets to accommodate triple phazer, while still keeping you strong against Nidoking. Those are just my preferences from what I've observed on the ladder though. I do not want to drop any games to low-ELO opponents trying gimmicky stuff.
     
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