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All Gens The "What if..." Thread

Discussion in 'Analysis and Research' started by Ch01W0n5h1n, Jul 23, 2017.

  1. Ch01W0n5h1n

    Ch01W0n5h1n Member

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    The thread where you can freely think and talk (well, more like write) about Certain Scenarios regarding having access to Attack X or A Change of Mechanics to Mechanic Y.

    I´ll start with some examples: What if Belly Drum was avaible in RBY and everything that gets it in GSC would get it in RBY too? Or access to Curse?

    Would Snorlax be significantly better in terms of utility, that it could rise to the top of the Tier?
    Would things like Poliwrath or Marowak rise?

    What if GSC had the same Amnesia Mechanics as RBY or if Mons had access to Calm Mind?
    Would Raikou and Suicune then rapidly rise (or in Raikous Case make the Gap between it and other Mons bigger) ?

    What if ADV had no Trappers? Or Mons no Abilities at all?

    Feel free to share your thoughts
     
  2. Sadlysius

    Sadlysius Member

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    What if ADV had the same Sleep Talk -> Rest ("If Rest is called, the user will regain HP normally...") mechanics that older gens?

    What if ADV had Physical/Special split like DPP?

    What if ADV had ...
    • Choice Scarf
    • Choice Specs
    • Life Orb
    • Focus Sash ... ?
     
  3. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Belly Drum Slowbro lgi! Seriously though, I think the move is a niche option for most pokemon, as the lack of Lefties and Rest being not as useful as in GSC means it's a hell of a lot more risky for most pokemon. Snorlax suffers the most, as it gets 2HKO'd by a lot of things if it tries to Drum, and even if it pans out you're probably only trading. Clefable could be decent thanks to its speed tier, though its bulk is a little questionable, while Zard is easily the biggest beneficiary. Personally I still don't see Clef as more than a niche option somewhere in C/D. Zard might make it to E maybe?

    Curse on the other hand would be absolutely HUGE, as Lax suddenly feasts on everything it encounters. Sure, it lacks the titanic special bulk of GSC, but there's no avoiding the pummeling it would be capable of dishing out
     
  4. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    Belly Drum Gengar (I know it can't learn it) has potential if the opponent leads Jynx.

    Turn 1: put Jynx to sleep
    Later: Belly Drum on the switch (probably Alakazam or Exeggutor). Pretty sure +6 Explosion OHKOs through Reflect. Hyper Beam takes a massive chunk away from Exeggutor.

    Mean Look in RBY could be devastating, as only Alakazam can switch into Gengar and make it shit itself. Starmie is faster, but not every variant is FriendlyMie and it hates Thunderbolt. Everything else fears Explosion.

    Curse would obviously be banned very quickly, since it will actually give you priority over paralyzed Pokemon. Not to mention that it gives Snorlax an amazing way of boosting its Attack without losing half its HP. Curse/Body Slam/Earthquake/Rest would be the most dominant moveset in the metagame.
     
  5. Ch01W0n5h1n

    Ch01W0n5h1n Member

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    I could imagine Suicune and Zapdos being a whole lot better. Especially Zapdos would profit from it, and Rest Talk could be the Nr. 1 Choice of a Zapdos Set in ADV.

    Life Orb would be a decent option as a Middle Ground between Choice Band and Leftovers (think of Tyranitar), and for Fast, Hard hitting Mons in General (Jolteon comes to Mind).
    Focus Sash could be an option for Dugtrio, as it isn´t locked into the first move and would give trouble to mons which have a glancing Weakness. Maybe Alakazam would profit from it too, as it´s PhysicThe Lack of Stealth Rock Mons would prevent it from being too common though, since this is one of the Main uses for it.
    I´m not too sure about the other Items.

    I wanted to point out what if one of those two Moves were avaible could happen, not both of them. Not sure if it´s all to relevant to what you said, but better to mention it than not. GSC mechanics would apply, not ADV and later on Gens mechanics(as both are GB(C) Cardridges so if Belly Drum would have been implemented, it would have worked similar to the GSC Mechanics (I guess so at least). If both were avaible, Curse for sure would be the preferred choice, especially since Reflect is already that common on Lax.
    The Reason why I didn´t especially Mention Char was because it has a glancing Weakness versus things such as Starmie and Slowbro, wouldn´t like setting up on Chansey either, and would flat out lose to Zapdos, on which it couldn´t even trade (and Golem/Rhydon, since both should be able to survive A BD boosted EQ).
    Clefable Could profit from it as long as it sets up on a Paralyzed Mon and doesn´t face Golem/Rhydon. It could then, at the very least, trade.
    The reason I listed Marowak was because it could come in and set up on a predicted Thunderwave/Tbolt, though I personally don´t see a too great niche for it.
    As for Curse, I am pretty sure that it would change the whole way RBY would be played, as a lot of Mons have access to it (Tauros, for example, would have access to it and Lax can´t come in to attempt to prevent it).
    I am pretty sure that the effects it would have one the Game would be that game changing that one can´t put it on a nutshell, but we can point certain things out.
     
  6. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    Choice Specs Articuno probably 2HKOs Chansey with a crit. Maybe it even OHKOs Tauros.
    Choice Band Rhydon could do some serious damage. I wonder if it OHKOs Chansey (if not, it must come awfully close).
     
  7. Ch01W0n5h1n

    Ch01W0n5h1n Member

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    Mean Look would indeed be very useful to Gar, as it would make it easier to time it´s moves, thus no Switch in/Switch out Mind Games. I´m not too sure about BD Gar as a Lead, unless you plan to Counter Lead Jynx and maybe Eggy, but other than that, it could immensely profit from paralysis being spread and amazing Speed to make use from.
    As a Bonus, the BD Boost would lead to it outspeeding other Paralyzed Mons.
    Lets take Zam/Starmie for Example: One of them comes in on the BD Turn, Gar outspeeds either of them and fires off HB (both under paralysis)

    Let´s not forget Tauros, it being feared for Mons to Switch in and being capable of using Damage Increasing Items could give it a massive boost.
    Choice Band Rhydon would have potential as a hard physical hitter after Eggy is gone, but even with it still beingl in the Game, A boosted Eq would do as much damage as Rockslide, putting it in a different position vs Eggy in General, especially after it is paralyzed.
    As with Choice Specs in RBY, it should raise it´s overall special since Special Stats aren´t split in RBY, so it would make Mons less Special vulnerable too, especially versus non specialized Users that run Special Attacks such as any defensive Special User and Mons like Tauros running Blizzard.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  8. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Probably should've mentioned you were referring to RBY Band / Specs guys. Specs probably wouldn't affect Special, if RBY had items it probably would've been coded just for damage effectively making it only affect the "Special Attack" side of things. The biggest problem with Choice items wouldn't be Band/Specs, but the headache of Scarf wrappers.
    Imagine running into Dragonite / Victreebel / Tentacruel / Arbok / Dragonair / Tentacool teams (Obviously DNair/Tentacool would be replaceable with other partial trappers) if you don't have faster Scarf users or Gengar.

    Speaking of Scarf, some non-rage inducing Scarf ideas:

    Jynx - Fastest 75% sleep, and assuming you don't take sleep from opposing scarf Jynx or miss and take para, you can easily switch out and have a pretty good late game sweeper.
    Gengar - Fastest sleep possible, and also beats non-Scarf Starmie as well as has the option to trade with lead Alakazam.
    Nidoking / Nidoqueen / Sandslash - Each have their issues, but even Sandslash outspeeds everything up to base 120 mons, they are all are TWave immune, and in the case of the Nidos have full coverage to be a threat to everything.
    Flareon - A little bundle of fur and power, now with screw Starmie and Alakazam levels of speed.

    Also, I think Articuno might be better off with Band than Specs so it isn't completely screwed against Lapras. Banded DE does as much against Blizzard against resists / Chansey, and does twice as much to Lapras as Specs Blizzard does, with the added benefit of not being negated by Amnesia. And then there's boosted Hyper Beam / Sky Attack on top of that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  9. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Curse/Body Slam/Amnesia/Rest. Attack lowering, Defence boosting + PP stall, and Gengar look like the only counters, though it's harder to bring Lax in than in GSC.
    Doesn't work vs. Zam switch. Zam doesn't use Reflect, it uses Psychic, and OHKOs because you lost half your health to Belly Drum.
    +6 Charizard Earthquake vs. Rhydon: 427 - 502 (103.4 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +6 Charizard Hyper Beam vs. Zapdos: 399 - 470 (104.2 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Maybe check your KOs before talking about them? :V

    Faster stuff beats it, of course, but after Belly Drum it OHKOs all OUs guaranteed except Cloyster, Slowbro, Snorlax, Lapras and Dragonite (and only Cloyster is 100% safe; it's got a 4/39 chance to OHKO Slowbro, 14/39 to OHKO Snorlax, 16/39 to OHKO Lapras and 31/39 to OHKO Dragonite). 999 Attack Hyper Beam is rather nasty.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  10. Ch01W0n5h1n

    Ch01W0n5h1n Member

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    That wasn´t assuming Zap comes in on it. I meant it more as in: It being weak to Ice and Electric Moves, which aren´t exactly uncommon, doesn´t really do it a favor in setting up.
    I stand corrected on Rhydon though, I remembered it wrong.
    Above still applies. Messed up the Calculations, sorry for that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  11. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Wrong. I specified 999 Attack in my post, and the damage calculator I was using already accounts for it. I just redid it by hand: 999 Attack Charizard does 427-502 damage to Rhydon with Earthquake (Rhydon has 413 HP) and does 399-470 damage to Zapdos with Hyper Beam (Zapdos has 383 HP). Unless it crits, Charizard's OHKO is assured.

    I have no problem with pedantry, but please try to be accurate about it.
     
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  12. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Moderator

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    Choice scarf in adv seems interesting but i can't think of a ton of great users for it. A lot of the mons in adv just don't hit hard enough off the bat to make the extra speed worthwhile with the cost of being locked in to a move. That being said, there are a few pokes that could make use of it. Metagross doesn't need a boost to hit hard, and it can still fish for boosts with meteor mash which would be amazing with the speed boost. It can outspeed dugtrio now as well (needs jolly but it can afford that) which is awesome. Would just make for a cool offensive pivot and late game cleaner.

    Heracross is another one that greatly benefits from the speed and hits hard enough to take advantage of it. Like metagross it would now out speed dugtrio, and it wouldn't be revenge killed by things like offensive starmie/cele/rachi. Medicham is in a similar boat but trades STAB megahorn for more power behind its fighting attacks, and access to baton pass to grab tempo. Both have to worry about being chipped by sand though.
     
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  13. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    Paralyzed Zam dies if it switches into Belly Drum. I wrote "later," not "turn 2."
     
  14. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    What if...

    RBY Metronome had:

    1/4 chance of a random sleeping status move (Spore, Sleep Powder, Lovely Kiss, Hypnosis or Sing)
    1/4 chance of a random paralyzing status move (Glare or Thunder Wave)
    1/4 chance of a random attacking move
    1/4 chance of a random other move

    Could you see using it?

    Pokemon with Metronome:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  15. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    Brick Break in rby not broken, not as strong as Submission but, Machamp would become the real Chansey 1# asskicker and noneless breaking Reflects, make fighting types great again with at least a decent stab, pretty sure they would had a little niche unlike now
     
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  16. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    In accurate play, no. Because you can't safely use it after Sleep Clause has been activated.
     
  17. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    Background: growth is the ONLY move that can raise special attack in gsc

    What if : calm mind and nasty plot were in gsc? (I dont have much experience with rby amnesia but from what i hear it sounds broken)
     
  18. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    What if...
    Karate Chop was 65 BP and Fighting-type in RBY?
    and...
    Peck was 80 BP and Legendary Birds all had the same base speed?
     
  19. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    65 BP crit STAB against a resist does almost as much as neutral 100 BP, impressive. With it Machamp completely hard counters Reflect Chansey/Lax and usually OHKOs Tauros. In the current meta, I could see Machamp going as high as C rank. Standard set I'd imagine would be Karate Chop / Body Slam / Hyper Beam / Rock Slide (or maybe Earthquake for Gengar or Counter). Primeape quite possibly jumps up a tier or two with such a powerful move.

    Articuno I think benefits more between the two birds. The Zapdos matchup turns into a 50/50 and a strong consistent physical STAB lets it wear down Waters (and especially Chansey) outside of freezes a bit more. Moltres enjoys being faster and having Drill Peck to go with its Base 100 Attack stat, but I think Moltres doesn't get that much from it outside of pressuring Chansey harder. Articuno I could see becoming a C or maybe even B level threat while Moltres would probably remain in D. Peck would be a viable move on Seaking in low tiers for recoilless physical damage against opposing Waters and extra damage against things like Parasect, Primeape and Machamp.
     
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  20. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    Moltres could pressure not just Chansey but golden target Par Starmie and even break Slowbro on Rest turns with some luck
     
  21. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    What if... no pokémon could learn Hidden Power besides Unown? (in any generation)
     
  22. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    If Unown learnt it then Smeargle would learn it........................................ :D
     
  23. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    Hmm, there are moves that cannot be sketched (such as Struggle, or Transform in GSC). We could suppose that's the fact for Hidden Power in this case, but the impact of Unown AND Smeargle as the only users of Hidden Power would be interesting as well.
     
  24. TuffHunter

    TuffHunter Member

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    What if in RBY if fire actually took 1/2 from
    Ice...
     
  25. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Not a whole lot changes from that, I feel. Fires have crap coverage in RBY, so a resistance isn't going to do a whole lot for them in OU, and Ice coverage in lower tiers is usually paired with other moves that hit Fire-types just as hard if not harder. Fire-types obviously like having it, but the only real major change I see here is Moltres in OU getting Blizzard neutrality.
     
  26. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    I think it would be more interesting if Fire was Super Effective against Electrics (without losing neutrality to Ice). Plus all legendary birds with the same base speed (notice that "same speed" can mean a nerf to Zapdos or a buff to Articuno), would be cool, as all birds would be 50%/50% against each other.

    However, since the most dominant forces in RBY are Normal and Psychic-types, changes on Fighting/Bug/Ghost-types would be more likely to change the meta:

    - Buff to Fighting-type moves (or changing moves like Karate Chop to Fighting);

    - More Bug-type pokémons with STAB moves (i.e: Bug-type Vice Grip with 70 BP + High Critical Rate), and buff moves that already exists (i.e: 100 BP Leech Life, 70 BP Twineedle, 35 BP Pin Missile) + buff to Bug-type Pokémons (such as Beedrill and Parasect);

    - Lick to 90 BP, Ghost SE against Psychic + Ghost immune to Psychic.

    Something like that would be nice to see.
     
  27. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Calm Mind is hueg; it's such a defining trait of GSC that (non-Eeveelution) specials can't boost. Most obvious beneficiary in 1U is Mewtwo, since its lack of a special boosting move is crippling (it's still a candidate for "top mon", but holy shit does it wish it could boost).

    Amnesia in RBY is a godlike move, but it has extremely-limited distribution and aside from Mewtwo the stuff that gets it is otherwise mediocre. Slowbro's the only user in 1U, and while scary it's not exactly top of the tier.
    Moltres is significantly better. Flareon and Charizard are the only other Fires with the movepool and stats to be even moderately relevant in 1U; I can see Charizard as an anti-Jynx lead without an Ice weakness, but otherwise they're meh.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2018

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