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Community The current state of GSC MTs

Discussion in 'GSC OU Seasons' started by FriendOfMrGolem120, Jul 29, 2019.

?

Would you be interested in joining a GSC tour with Sleep-Perish-Trap unbanned?

  1. Yes, I think it could improve the tier.

    1 vote(s)
    14.3%
  2. Yes, I would like to try it but I think it likely won't improve the tier.

    2 vote(s)
    28.6%
  3. No, I am not interested in trying it.

    4 vote(s)
    57.1%
  1. FriendOfMrGolem120

    FriendOfMrGolem120 aka. "FOMG" Moderator

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    Hello,
    over the course of the last Master Tournaments, they got less and less participants. Sometimes I asked friends if they want to join but I stopped doing that as player inactivity also became a huge issue and I didn't want needing to convince people to take part.
    I would like to discuss in this thread if you think individual GSC OU tournaments have a future on pokemon perfect and if so, what needs to be done about them. Should the format be changed (round robin, swiss format, live tours or just casual playing evenings - possibly with experienced players offering their help to newcomers without committing to tutor them for several weeks)? Should they be hosted with longer breaks and not as regularly to make them more special? Should we host variations of OU like "OU No Snorlax", "OU but only with 3 OUs per team" or anything like that? Or even lower tiers like Ubers, UU, NU etc.? Possibly a mix of them (bo3/5 with different tiers)?
    Please let me know if there is a reason why you lost interested in joining GSC MTs and if you would consider joining again after any of the proposed changes.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
  2. Lojh

    Lojh Above Average GSCer Member

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    I think we should discontinue them until further notice. It’s just that gsc has a small playerbase and so does PP. we should take a break from gsc tours.
     
  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    it takes a lot to maintain activity in the season. I have some thoughts, which are largely things that are longly-held yet hardly acted upon ideas in my head, mostly because I have never been invested in or interested in the tier.

    Of course, I have a ton of experience hosting seasons and so on, and I have to say that being actively persistent, especially earlier on with players, is really important to help keep them coming back. Invite everyone you can to the forum, check that they're scheduling, always make sure people know their matchups, and so on. It is a ton of work but with it you can make it a habit for some players and then you don't have to work so hard with a bunch of your playerbase. You need regulars to make the tournaments larger and the community more invested, and you need newcomers to keep things interesting for the regulars.

    Another thing is a gripe I've had with the GSC community since forever, is that noone's tried since borat wrote his guide umpteen and a half years ago to write up-to-date and pertinent analyses of the game. If you want newcomers to come and join you, do your best to make it as easy for them as possible - give them mountains of things they can read and explore, give them the tournaments and remind them to play so that they develop experience, and through those sorts of things you develop an active community. Actively tutoring people is another thing that can help.

    My main point really is you have to want and work really hard for the seasons to succeed and also for the site around it - the analyses, the chats that form on discord and in RoA, and so on - to succeed and grow. This is not something with an easy solution.

    Making this thread is also good in that you get to hear out people's thoughts. I would advise linking this to every GSCer you know and getting their thoughts on it and also finding out what they want out of Pokemon Perfect or what they feel they're missing as a GSCer in the community.
     
  4. Oibaf

    Oibaf Member

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    In my opinion introducing metas such as "no snorlax" or "nu" won't help at all... I personally wouldn't join something different to the classic gsc. It's also known since several years that gsc is the less popular tier, so it's normal that finding people that join actively to the MS is hard. Although the guide idea is cool and might be the most efficient one, if you are starting that project I can help (even if there are several players better than me).
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
    Lojh and FriendOfMrGolem120 like this.
  5. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    If I could sum up this thread in one word it would be "Sigh" .

    I have so much nostalgia for this gen and to see it die thanks to people not listening to me sucks. It REALLY sucks.
    Are you happy? Are you happy you got to keep your stupid bans now? The gen with the current bans is not worth playing. How many times does it have to be said, how many more players have to stop playing, before you get it? The game is not worth playing. Why do you think people aren't playing anymore? Why do you think they stopped? As I have said for YEARS now, unban the mean look, hypnosis, and perish song combination, and you will return to healthy player base numbers. As it stands the optimal way to play this game is nonobjective based stalling. Meaning playing in a way simply to not lose. Not to try to win, but simply trying to not lose. With sleep perish trapping unbanned that will no longer be the case. It will also have a nice side effect of nerfing lk lax, electrics, and buffing ground types. Listen to me for once.

    On the point of writing a guide. If you would have asked me to write a guide when I was at my peak, I could have done it and went through some of my battles going through my thought processes. That would have been fun and educational if I did it with my offensive teams (which is what over 90% of my gsc career was spent playing), but I couldn't do that now in good conscious knowing what I know now, which is that playing that way is not the optimal way to play this game. I could write a very good guide laying out how to play stall effectively which I think would be an interesting read but it surely would not increase the player base. It might have a temporary boost, but everyone would just be playing stall which is what is killing the game now. I truly believe the rebirth of this gen starts with unbanning Hypnosis, perish song, mean look combo. This game needs a revolution.

    I don't see how you guys can be so conservative about keeping a ban while your game is dying, when throughout all of the game's prime the community was playing without it. It truly is idiocy. I'm sorry to be so harsh but it is.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
  6. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  7. FriendOfMrGolem120

    FriendOfMrGolem120 aka. "FOMG" Moderator

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    Roostur I appreciate your opinion but don't like the certainty with which you are claiming unbanning Sleep-Perish-Trap would make the tier more popular. First, it would let PP have a main GSC tier that differs from Smogon, possibly making people who mainly play there less enclined to join our tournaments. Second, according to this vote most of the top players voted for a Sleep-Trap ban, which would automatically ban Sleep-(Perish)-Trap as well.

    The fact that GSC tournaments are not popular on PP anymore, doesn't necessarily mean GSC isn't popular overall. I looked at the number of signups of the last three Smogon Classics and see nothing indicative that GSC has gotten less popular. The numbers vary but I don't see any pattern that affects GSC and not the other gens as well.
    2017
    RBY 255
    GSC 241
    ADV 338

    2018
    RBY 438
    GSC 391
    ADV 491

    2019
    RBY 374
    GSC 366
    ADV 482
    Maybe people just play less on Pokemon Perfect because Smogon/RuinsOfAlph is giving players more opportunities to play GSC in tournaments compared to the past.

    I'd be willing to give the unban you are proposing a try and host a tournament here if players show enough interest for which I'll add a poll to this thread.
    You can message me here or on discord FriendOfMrGolem120#4448 if you have suggestions about the exact format.
     
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  8. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    GSC is certainly less popular overall. There were many more people playing when I played, and certainly there were a lot more people playing before my time. I thankfully got to play during a time when exploiting the fact that gengar can’t use sleep perish trap anymore wasn’t much of a thing. I got to see the beauty of what this game can be, and the depth of this game. Gengars sleep perish trap is not even that good. If it was legal I probably wouldn’t even use it. The point of unbanning it is that it would be a stall regulator. You could not play stall the way it is played today. You could not just sit back and not lose. Gengar would make those kinds of teams obsolete. This change doesn’t need to be pp specific, it needs to be on showdown as well. The ban should have never happened. It was the worst thing to ever happen to this game. This needs to be seen as a repeal of a bad law. We all need to collectively call for this repeal. This ban was not collectively sought after. It was effectively put in place quietly by one person, Borat. It should be repealed automatically because it was unjustly put in place without the consent of the player base. If after it is unbanned and played with for at least a month or two, and people don’t like it, THEN we can have a vote to ban. But as it stands, this game was retarded by only one person. And no one in this community thinks one person should be able to implement bans in our game, so it is wrong that it still stands.

    EDIT: Just trying the game with the ban uplifted isn't going to solve anything. People aren't going to be using counters or even know how to play in this new meta. The meta is very different without the ban and some time for some evolution is needed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  9. Diophantine

    Diophantine Taiga Member

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    I think there's more of a GSC problem than a GSC MT problem. GSC OU is the least popular official Smogon tier, and there are several reasons which contribute to this. Ultimately, I (and I'm sure most people) want it to grow to be as popular as its successors. I'll list some reasons as to why I believe GSC is not as popular as the other generations. I'm speaking as someone who only used to play Gen 7 OU, and whose friends are still only playing Gen 7 OU (with a few venturing down the generations or the lower tiers). While I haven't been playing GSC for long, I think I've got a good understanding of it and its playerbase.

    Reason 1: There aren't any entertaining guides.

    Disaster Area put this quite well. When I started playing GSC I found the Borat guides, read for like 20 mins and got really bored and put them down. I learnt by playing, watching and theorising for myself. I honestly think that something like this
    would be good (of course something like this would have to be improved on a lot). I would actually be interested in doing something like this myself, and if anyone wants to help me in any sort of way then shoot me a PM on Smogon or Discord.

    Reason 2: There's little coverage on YouTube.

    I, and many others, started playing competitive Pokemon because they watched it on YouTube. There are channels such as Blunder's and Aim's that cover the recent gens as that is what these players play. These channels get thousands and thousands of views on each video. A lot of the playerbase (from the bottom of the ladder to the highest performers in SPL) for gens 6 and 7 are most likely subscribers to these channels and wanted to play/improved by watching them. Sure, there's BKC's channel, and Lavos had a channel, but nothing quite near what Aim and Blunder have - consistent uploads with friendly, charismatic personalities that keep you coming back. (Not saying BKC is neither of these things and his channel is absolutely necessary, but there is a clear difference between them).

    Reason 3: There's no community for GSC.

    I'm sure most of you are aware of the ADV Community discord server. It's a place where seasoned veterans and newcomers go to do all things ADV related. The top players are usually very inclusive, friendly and helpful. Even though I don't play ADV much, I am involved with it sometimes purely due to how enjoyable the community is to be a part of.

    There's nothing like that for GSC. Nearly everyone that I play GSC with are friends that I've made through playing other things.

    Reason 4: "It's the stall meta".

    Sceptross has implemented that automated message in the RoA room which explains why that statement is not entirely accurate, but that is truly the general (Pokemon playing) public's view on GSC. No one wants to get into a meta where they envision playing stall vs stall all the time - it's just not fun. I think more needs to be done to shake this common perception.

    That's all I can think of at the moment. There are probably more reasons, but I gotta leave my house in like 10 minutes or I'll miss my bus lol.
     
  10. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    It is not just a perception, it is the truth. When I played it was common for a game to last over two hours. If that two hours was at least engaging, I would complain less. But those two hours are instead mind numbing.
     
  11. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    And not to toot my own horn but I also would like to say that I was a personality. And me leaving this game had a high correlation with the decline of the player base on the ladder, and those playing on the ladder at the time can attest to that. When I stopped playing, a lot of other people stopped playing too. You could have very entertaining people in your community easily. This gen is the deepest gen and could easily be the most popular of the old gens. But that ban has to be uplifted first. I'm telling you, if you don't uplift that ban this community simply isn't growing.
     
  12. Lojh

    Lojh Above Average GSCer Member

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    Ok rn games aren’t even that long. It’s just got a really small playerbase and then many people plant seeds of gsc being bad and like no one wants to get into it. I was laddering with miltank+drumlax (slow paced team) the other day and like the max turns i got was 200 only because the dude like lost the game turn 9 but decided to not forfeit. I had a lot of fun short games, like this one:
    [Gen 2] OU replay: ladderduccboi69 vs. geenyus - Pokémon Showdown
    While sleep trap unbanned would be a cool meta, i think the problem lies more in PP itself and less the gen
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
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  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I agree with this comment and will say that in some ways PP tried to foment this, but for complex reasons that this thread does a good job getting into in some ways, there wasn't the same success in GSC as there was in RBY. I don't know that there is much of an RBY community nowadays either, but definitely since I joined the RBY tier there's been a community, and that community found PP to be home for most of that time.

    There is some perception also of GSC as the "skill meta" (ADV and DPP take this too, to some extent). I would try and emphasise that aspect more, honestly. Also, it's curious to note how RBY being the "luck meta" had an easier time maintaining a community than the "stall meta".
     
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  14. asbdsp

    asbdsp Member

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    I'm going to say something very harsh, and maybe I'm not in a position to say it either, but here goes.

    The player-base are discriminating and follow where the best play (especially for a gen with as big of a time commitment as GSC). The best simply don't play here anymore. And hence the player-base has left with them. Only when this problem is overcome can things possibly change. And I know it's a bit chicken and egg and unfair on PP as a community, but there you go.
     
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  15. LUX

    LUX Member

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    Hey, Id like to add my voice here. Fair warning Ive only played in 2 of these, one of which i got a r1 exit and the other which i got acted out. I'm also generaly not very active anymore, and those two tours are two of the last i ever really participated in as a whole. I have lurked since 2015 though and these are based off of what i observed from that.

    The big problem here is not really within just PP, but within the competitive community as a whole. I'm honestly genuinely surprised no one here has brought this up. IDT anyone is denying that since id say mid 2018 there has been a steady decline in hte playerbase. This is generally reflected in almost every tour - SPL X signups were somewhat less than SPL 9 though admittedly not by too much, but WC signups between 2017 and 2018 dropped p hard, and 2019 had about the same number of signups as that. Thats just the old gens scene - we see across the board Snake signups dropped super hard between 2017 and 2018, and 2019 ofc had very similar numbers (i think only off by 2). OST 2018 was the biggest tournament Smogon had ever hosted, and arguably the biggest tournament Pokemon has ever had as a whole. OST 2019 lost around 800 of those.

    This is p easy to tell why. Usually when a new game is released theres an influx of new players, but Let's Go didn't really bring that and Sword and Shield is actively killing that off. Old gens still suffer directly from this, as most older players at this point in the generation would simply retire rather than migrate to older gens. The older players also yes naturally just do team tours & GSC Cup at this point. The stronger focus on RoA definitely has a large impact on this too, tho im not sure how those numbers look. I also dont really know how much RoA has changed with changes in the circuit.

    So where does this go at? Simply put, there isnt a real solution to this problem. Not one thats in our hands anyways. Try as we might, theres really fewer and fewer players coming in. I do agree with Diophantine that in general GSC is one of the least popular of the OU tiers - this gen is in an awkward spot between 2 of the most popular and competitive old gens in RBY and ADV. Not as many players are actively nostalgic for GSC as they are for those two. While it is very competitive its also not seen as very newcomer friendly at all. This slows it down even moreso than the other tours such as the smogon ones i listed.

    I think there *is* something we could do. A GSC Invitational would be super hype - even without lavos in the picture it'd still be a very rigorous tour that could draw some attention, just as the RBY one did. As a whole if we try this somewhat before or after WC, this could easily have a lot of older players stay around in the game. I'd guess that if we did it this year itd be hosted like very soon, and next year ideally shortly after WC and Classic end (Id say honestly not much earlier than now). That could increase interest in the tier a bit and keep some stronger players going, which would definitely keep it rigorous. If that turns out well, it may be the best time to bring back the circuit.

    That being said I'm not gonna pretend thats gonna be anywhere reliable or strong enough to really combat the issues I've talked about. I definitely think that Lutra's choice to focus on RoA is probably best for old gens as a whole rn since at least we're not fragmenting with websites. I dont wanna come off the wrong way but i think this is just gonna be how it is. I dont know how much longer PP will last between all of these forces. At the very least, GSC here has already all but died. So yes, we probably should stop the GSC circuit here as a whole, and focus on what we can keep up - the RBY and ADV ones.
     
  16. Lojh

    Lojh Above Average GSCer Member

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    If we stop the gsc thing that’d kinda be sad and I’d be sad but like an invitational actually doesn’t sound like a bad idea. Also, have rby and adv experienced drops in signup rates on PP, because i feel its more of a PP problem than a gsc problem. Admittedly gsc isn’t very popular, but i feel like there are some other factors as well.
     
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  17. Oibaf

    Oibaf Member

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    The fact that you played ages ago and the stall war was a concrete thing doesn't mean that it's still an issue in 2019 and your personal experience isn't a 100% certain proof about what's going on rn. It's like if my granfather smokes since 1970 and he doesn't die because of cancer: the fact he isn't dead doesn't mean that the smoke isn't a cause of cancer

    Anyway rn it's kinda rare a stall vs stall situation, just look at SPL replays. Also I saw lately stall teams have a bad time because of the "new" lax set, combined with the usual stuff

    Sleep/Perish trap? No thanks, I want to be free to play stall if I want to and not just losing to missy (also stall isn't the only case in which that set shines a lot)

    A GSC community is a nice idea but will it be concretized?
     
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