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RBY OU / 1U (OverUsed) Tentacruel [GP Ready]

Discussion in 'Individual Analyses' started by Disaster Area, Dec 8, 2015.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Tentacruel [​IMG]
    Type: Water / Poison
    Stats: 80 | 70 | 65 | 120 | 100

    Introduction

    Tentacruel, in spite of its great Speed, access to Wrap, and Swords Dance, as well as the most powerful unboosted Special moveof a non-legendary Pokémon in Hydro Pump, is a poor choice in 1U. Its typing is poor, with weaknesses to Ground, Psychic, and Electric-type attacks, which are of the most common attacking types in the game, whilst Normal is unresisted, although it has a helpful resistance to Ice. Most of the Pokémon in RBY 1U which are considered fast have at least Tentacruel's base speed, and they all carry super-effective coverage. This is not to say Tentacruel is useless as a choice in the metagame, but it's only worthwhile versus specific teams - slow teams, usually with a Rock-type, and only their Tauros and sleep-bait lead outspeeding Tentacruel, are particularly vulnerable to Tentacruel - however, these teams are rare and relatively less effective in this metagame. As a counterpick to certain players, Tentacruel can shine, but with its myriad of weaknesses that cannot all be simultaneously easily covered, Tentacruel is a very weak choice in regular play.

    Sets

    Swords Dance Wrapper

    Tentacruel
    - Swords Dance
    - Wrap
    - Hyper Beam
    - Hydro Pump / Surf

    Set Details


    Swords Dance is required to make yourself significantly more threatening, and is most easily set up when the opponent's Pokémon is asleep. Wrap gets opponents into Hyper Beam KO range, and can be used to pivot to a teammate. Hydro Pump 3HKOs Snorlax and Gengar consistently, but Surf is more reliable versus targets such as the Rocks, and has a higher chance of OHKOing Tauros after it takes 2 non-critical hit Body Slams (88.1%). Blizzard and Ice Beam are not recommended as they don't OHKO the Rock-types, and Exeggutor (the most relevant Grass-type by far) is outsped by Tentacruel, making it Wrap-vulnerable. However, Blizzard has a small chance of a 2HKO on Zapdos, which is notable.

    Other Options

    Running Tentacruel in a different fashion, acting more as a pivot than a sweeper, using Blizzard over Swords Dance is a viable option. It doesn't rely on its subpar attack stat, or finding setup opportunities, to be effective. However, it does make it less threatening, and its typing is pretty poor defensively, making it a pretty meagre choice. Double Edge is an alternative, albeit a very poor alternative, to Hyper Beam, which doesn't carry the risk of missing, but is not worth running. Barrier deserves a very brief mention for being a superior alternative to the move Reflect which few Pokemon have access to, but due to its multiple weaknesses to very common attacking types, it would be a very poor option.

    Checks and Counters

    Gengar is the best counter, although it's 3HKO'd by Hydro Pump, it only has approximately 50% chance to hit all 3, Gengar is immune to Wrap and Hyper Beam, and has access to Thunderbolt, as well as Explosion, making it a great check so long as it's still around when Tentacruel appears. Starmie resists Tentacruel's Water STAB, outspeeds it, and usually carries attacks that destroy it and status that debilitates it. Jolteon and Alakazam outspeed it and have super-effective STAB, whilst Tauros hits it super-effectively with Earthquake. Persian has a decent chance of beating Tentacruel in a pure 1v1 if it carries Surf rather than Hydro Pump. Zapdos speed ties, and has Thunder Wave and a powerful Electric STAB. Exeggutor, Chansey, Snorlax, and Lapras can punish it heavily should it miss a Wrap, and aren't set-up bait, most especially as Tentacruel despises paralysis.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  2. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    minor nitpick, but legendary birds all pack attacks that are stronger than Cruel's HPump, and Cruel's HPump is stronger than M2's Psychic (strictly in terms of raw damage).

    Maybe draw attention to the fact that Cruel is totally screwed by para. This is probably the most debilitating weakness it possesses (same for almost all SDers really), Maybe mention somewhere that besides the obvious sleeping/frozen pokemon, GolDon are Cruel's best hope of setting up. Also I don't think Acid is even worth mentioning
     
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  3. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    I wonder if this set and especially analysis is a too focused on the physical spectrum, although freeing up slots is somewhat of a low opportunity, low cost thing so it's debatable how much it's really worth doing so.

    In theory, Swords Dance sweeping is a nice thing, but its counters are so overwhelming that you are essentially looking at a dream scenario where it is able to pull off the physical sweeping thing in a 1U match. You almost have to be against a sleeping/frozen Pokemon or predicting on GolDon in order to do anything and even so, a full health Alakazam can survive a SD Hyper Beam about 80% of the time, never mind if it is carrying Reflect. Jynx survives 51% of the time. Jolteon survives all the time. Starmie can survive a 2 SD Hyper Beam most of the time (it's over 80% of the time when you factor in misses and criticals), which is the best you can even hope for, as Thunderbolt is a guaranteed 3HKO.

    Versus Paralyzed or OK Chansey/Paralyzed Starmie/Slowbro:
    Tentacruel used Swords Dance!
    Starmie/Chansey/Slowbro used Thunder Wave! (oops)

    Versus Snorlax/Exeggutor:
    Turn 1 (if they even wish to stay in, if not it's just like the previous scenario):
    Tentacruel used Swords Dance!
    Snorlax used physical attack/Exeggutor used Psychic/status!

    Turn 2 (if necessary):
    [switch to something faster]
    Tentacruel used Wrap (crap damage, and forced into pivoting or getting destroyed)

    Things that can switch into a Swords Dance (which are all mentioned in the Counters section):
    Gengar, non-statused Starmie, Tauros, Jolteon, full-health/Reflect Alakazam, Zapdos

    And in all these cases, Tentacruel will find itself better off switching out most of the time, rather than risk getting hit, so it ends up doing absolutely nothing.

    Compare this to Wrap + pivot out, or hitting and running with Special attacks, and most of the time you are screwing yourself by using Swords Dance (with the listed set). This is not to say that Swords Dance is the move that should be dropped, it is helpful as long as it is used sparingly rather than spammed. It takes on more of the role of a filler, and then Hyper Beam by extension is filler squared. Obviously Hyper Beam is complete crap without a Swords Dance, yet Swords Dance has significant use without Hyper Beam. So Hyper Beam is the move that can most easily be dropped.

    Consider the alternate set:
    Wrap
    Surf
    Blizzard
    Swords Dance

    How much does it really gain with Blizzard? It can really harm Zapdos and get freeze hax which is not exciting, but chipping and haxxing is in the long run probably going to accomplish more than Hyper Beam, which is only an extension of a fillerish Swords Dance. It is not Victreebel, Sandslash, or Kingler with 100+ base Attack and limited Special options, Charizard which does not rely on Speed to immobilize opponents and which has enough attack to KO Alakazam most of the time after a boost, as well as Earthquake for coverage.

    It seems like a similar train of thought was covered even in the Charizard thread where Disaster Area brought up the Slashing Swords Dance-free possibility. But Tentacruel is way more easily primed for backing off on the Swords Dance.

    I don't see the point of a whole new set, you can just slash Blizzard with Hyper Beam. Surf should move above Hydro Pump for a 100% accuracy finishing move, which it benefits from in both the cases of Hyper Beam and Blizzard, and Double-Edge is completely weak crap, which seems to be covered in the OP but it isn't even another option. Also, Hydro Pump hardly "consistently" 3KOs Gengar because of its poor accuracy, and thus ends up being a 61% vs 31% thing which isn't good if that's its niche selling point.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  4. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Tentacruel is not 1U material, this is well known and consolidated; that's the reason why this thread has been overlooked quite a bit.
    Body Slam tragedy really put the nail on the coffin, as having Tauros para'd is a key requirement given that EQ is a clean 2HKO.
    Sandslash and Kingler aren't comparable to Tentacruel because they don't learn Wrap; Victreebel is better due to double powders and that's why it's ranked way higher.
    If you really want to use Tentacruel in 1U you need to paralyse faster pokemon on the opposing team, setup with SD and then sweep; Tentacruel is not meant to hit and run simply because it can't switch into anything!
    I think Tentacruel's game to be more similar to Dnite's, indeed.

    That being said, I agree on Blizzard: it saves Tentacruel from being outclassed by Victreebel because it deals a ton of damage to Exeggutor and Zapdos.
    If Zapdos switches into Wrap, one cycle might enable Blizzard to be a 2HKO - which means it's a speed tie and 2HKO both ways; Victreebel would be scared out.

    Cruel's special line is amazing, and we're facing a 4MSS nonetheless.
    SD and Wrap made up for most of Cruel's game, HB is that useful against Water-types (para's Starmie, Slowbro, Lapras anyone?) and it makes things easier against Chansey, and finally, HPump (>Surf) is your STAB.
    IMO the price for dropping HB is just too high.

    Actually, looking closely, dropping the Water move is an option: you give up on the OHKO on GolDon (but Blizzard is close), the 2HKO on Tauros (and the Tauros MU in general) and the non-Wrap game against Snorlax.
    HPump's biggest upside is the OHKO Tauros after an Hyper Beam in the ditto, and you're at risk of a CH Earthquake anyway.

    TL;DR: supporting Wrap/HB/Blizzard/SD even if it looks wild.
     
  5. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    Para'd Starmie is difficult to obtain (GolDon?), Lapras/Cloyster/Slowbro are not used all that much and when you are getting to the point where Hyper Beam is doing significantly more damage than a water STAB, it's after a Swords Dance, and at that point Wrap is doing significant damage and they are immobilized anyway. There's enough slower Pokemon in the metagame that are even prominently used, but it's difficult to face them with a Swords Dance, and even after a Swords Dance, your opponent isn't going to be switching them in as long as they have anything faster like Tauros who can 2HKO with Earthquake.

    Unlike Blizzard/Surf/Hydro Pump which doesn't require the setup move to be effective (Zapdos is pretty big after all, so is Exeggutor but it's not a great switch-in), Hyper Beam does. I get that the "point" of Tentacruel can be said to be similar to Dragonite, but it's missing the main things that make Dragonite good (Agility and attack). It can fix the latter with a Swords Dance, but unless you're using Bubblebeam (which mainly seems like a bad gimmick, although it can OHKO GolDon so there's that) there's no way to deal with the speed issue, unless if you are paralyzing literally everything that is standing in its way.

    I agree that marco's set has its advantages as well though...

    I really don't think this is too slashed up, as a compromise:
    Wrap
    Surf/Hydro Pump/Blizzard
    Swords Dance
    Hyper Beam/Blizzard
     
  6. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I think dropping Hyper Beam is silly, and if it did switch in to stuff I could see merit in an SD-less set. So really I think the best option is Wrap / SD / HB / Hydro, BUT I totally see the merit of Blizzard. I don't think it's that useful though: versus Zapdos, since it speed ties, you don't want to 1v1 it at all unless it's paralyzed, in which case you go for wrap. Against exegutor... again, you have Wrap. Blizzard would help a little bit in those scenarios but having its very powerful Hydro which is its best option against the rocks, Tauros, and just about anything that's not Grass or Flying-type really.

    Marco is right anyway that yeah it's really not a good Pokemon in 1U.
     
  7. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    There's little merit (pretty much Chansey/Lapras only and even in that case you can just Wrap 1-2 extra times) in an SD-less set over a Hyper Beam-less set because Hyper Beam is way more useless after dropping SD than SD is after dropping Hyper Beam (as it can still back up Wrap). I don't think anyone is in disagreement that it's not good in 1U though.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I mean like SDless is kinda pointless w/o HB, HB does do something for you vs Lapras, but yeah it really just lacks the movepool to work in 1U. Beastly in 2U but its flaws mean that its one real niche - SD + Wrap + HB + special attack - is not really workable in 1U.
     
  9. juoean

    juoean Member

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    why is bubblebeam (run together with blizzard) a gimmick and not a real option?
    it still ohkos goldon 100% (idont rly see how that matchup even happens is it after goldon kos something? but ppl keep mentioning it lol)
    the tauros and gengar 1v1 matchups are prob slightly worse overall (depending on their hp) but relying on blizzard in exchange for the extra attacking turn isnt that bad plus the freeze chance
    and the 1/3 chance of speed drop on dangerous switchins like zam/mie (mostly mie since zam is prob paralyzed) is huge if you get it a losing matchup instead becomes an advantageous matchup
    the fact that bubblebeam is horrible against lax ithink is irrelevant since 1 lax is early/mid tenta is hidden til late 2 lax (assuming it has eq) is a bad matchup anyway youre prob better off to just wrap once and pivot out
    i think tenta sweeping is a delusional dream regardless bc tauros ur better off using bubblebeam and blizzard for damage and secondary effects and pivoting out with wrap. (and pivoting back in later with another wrapper bc theres no way tentacruel is used except on a multiple wrapper team)
    a bubblebeam speed drop is actually great for pivoting in another wrapper that has a better matchup, eg bubblebeam tauros switch in and if speed drop wrap and threaten switch to cloy (or maybe a fire spin user) which has an amazing matchup against a tauros at -1 speed
     
  10. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Nah, I'd say sweeping's your best bet with a Tentacruel, since it can't act as a pivot at all due to its shitty defensive typing preventing it from entering play often. The idea that Tauros limits it as a sweeper is 100% accurate though, which is why Tenta is kinda just a trash mon.

    As for Bubblebeam, speed drops are both extremely unreliable and easily negated by switching (which practically free if the Tenta user starts to spam Wrap). By contrast, running such a weak STAB detracts from one of Tenta's few strengths- its raw power. Furthermore the Normal matchups literally define the meta, worsening them for the sake of a small and unreliable tradeoff against a few common but nonetheless less important threats is absolutely not worth it. And lastly I'll just say that Lax is not something that consistently dies before endgame. Maybe ones without Rest I guess, but RestLax is extremely common and has immense longevity, so saying that Lax is not present in the endgame is definitely not accurate imo
     
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  11. Sevi 7

    Sevi 7 Member

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    Tentacruel is not a good Swords Dance sweeper/cleaner in OU. If it wasn't for Wrap, it'd be comparable to (and possibly worse than) Beedrill. 70 base powered non-STAB attacks, means nothing even after a single Swords Dance, because even against the frailest Pokemon, it has less than a 50% chance to OHKO.
    +2 Tentacruel Hyper Beam vs. Chansey: 473-557 (67.2 - 79.2%)
    +2 Tentacruel Hyper Beam vs. Alakazam: 273-321 (87.2 - 102.5%) -- 17.9% chance to OHKO
    +2 Tentacruel Hyper Beam vs. Jynx: 305-359 (91.5 - 107.8%) -- 48.7% chance to OHKO

    Even after two Swords Dances, it still needs previous damage to kill with a Hyper Beam against more average bulked mons.
    +4 Tentacruel Hyper Beam vs. Tauros: 266-313 (75.3 - 88.6%)
    +4 Tentacruel Hyper Beam vs. Exeggutor: 285-336 (72.5 - 85.4%)
    +4 Tentacruel Hyper Beam vs. Starmie: 285-336 (88.2 - 104%) -- 25.6% chance to OHKO

    Even if Tentacruel manages to go +6 (and it takes a bit of effort to get Tentacruel to +2 sometimes), its critical hit rate will betray it about 1/5 of the time. Since Tentacruel is 2HKOed by everything, that translates to a dead jellyfish. So, Tentacruel is better off focusing on its massive Special for hit and run tactics and using Wrap to pivot (or weaken a mon into KO range if comes down to that). It's still not good, but as others have said, Tentacruel is not a good mon in OU.

    Also similar to what others have said, I think a better set is:
    -Hydro Pump/Surf
    -Blizzard
    -Wrap
    -Hyper Beam/Swords Dance

    I'm pretty iffy on the slashes to be honest, and they're probably better off as other options. However, I don't have the time to do the calcs for Surf vs Hydro right now and Swords Dance I don't think I need to talk about much more.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
  12. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Tentacruel vs. GolDon happens if they don't have anything faster (or Gengar) and are trying to PP-stall Wrap. If it misses on the turn they switch in GolDon then suddenly you have Tentacruel vs. GolDon.
     
  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    your set's definitely at least OO mention worthy Sevi 7 I will have more of a think about it
     
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  14. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Barrier probably deserves a mention in OO.
     
  15. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    what on earth does that help with?
     
  16. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Same stuff it helps with on anything else? Tentacruel has a high Special; it's not entirely incapable of pulling off Barrier + Rest. Still not good, but it stops most variants of Lax and isn't complete Tauros bait. Also useful for predicted Explosions.

    Barrier's just generally a pretty good move. I'm not saying stick it on the main set, but it's anOther Option. We mention Reflect on most of the things that get it, and Barrier's strictly better.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
  17. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I guess it's worth a very brief mention
     

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