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RBY OU / 1U (OverUsed) Special Techniques!

Discussion in 'Analysis and Research' started by Disaster Area, Jul 24, 2016.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Hey so in this thread I'm going to explain a few special techniques of my own now and again - from specific aspects of strategy to curious move and build options - and I welcome people posting their own things too.

    I'll start off with a couple of interesting techniques of my own that I think are interesting and worth sharing!

    Lead Reflect Alakazam + Non-Lead Jynx

    [​IMG] + [​IMG]

    The idea behind this is an attempt to make Jynx even more troublesome by granting it good matchups early on, letting it cause maximum damage, but it forces you to run an Alakazam which restricts the rest of the team to the big 4 although you can swap out a Pokémon or two if you want.

    Versus quite a few leads [always Gengar, highly likely Jolteon and frequently Starmie]*, you can expect your opponent to switch. The common switch-ins are Exeggutor and Chansey, both of which Jynx loves to be in versus, especially when it hasn't yet slept anything. So the idea is that versus those leads [Gengar, Starmie, Jolteon], you double-switch to Jynx and have a great advantage. Versus the other most common leads [Alakazam, Jynx] you have a choice. Versus Alakazam staying in is okay, as is going to Jynx - this has a higher payoff if your opponent goes to Exeggutor simultaneously, or Chansey, but it's far from certain. You could also consider going to your own Exeggutor here if you have one. If they lead Jynx you probably ought to damage the opponent's Jynx until Alakazam is slept, and then sleep the opposing Jynx with your own afterwards. A plus-side to this at least is that you avoid getting frozen.

    This approach is very early-game heavy - you often gain a bit early-game advantage but it reduces the team's strength in the late-game as a consequence. Nonetheless, especially should you get a freeze, the advantages of this approach can grant you a large advantage that gives you the momentum to win the game much more easily. I think Raish came up with this or helped me come up with this a long time ago, I don't remember the details any more, but it was probably a few months before the mechanical changes at the end of 2014.

    An interesting twist that you could do is use Jolteon instead of Alakazam. The plus-sides are that you're in a stronger position versus opposing lead Jynx, and the switch when your opponent has Starmie is a little more signalled, but the down-sides are that the switch with Gengar is less signalled (it's much less egregious to stay in with Gengar versus Jolteon than versus Alakazam), versus Alakazam you can't luck into your opponent going Exeggutor or Chansey as often, and versus opposing Jolteon you have a tie and have to stay in and trade paralysis, whereas if you're using Alakazam here it's a good opportunity to head into Jynx. The other downside is that if they carry a rock then that means your spare Jolteon is less of use, although Alakazam can face similar issues if they bring a Slowbro (unless you choose to run Kinesis instead of Reflect! Which is a possibility in all seriousness). Also, Reflect Alakazam is generally a lot more unkillable than Jolteon. Ultimately both options are valid options and I recommend both!

    *Gengar should always switch for reasons which should be obvious. With Jolteon, people are generally less experienced in typical matchups, so people are more likely to make suboptimal plays. Also, since Exeggutor is a teams main rock check, a Jolteon user is going to be less inclined to let it take the status and damage from Alakazam. With Starmie, people have vast differences on how to use Starmie. I'm generally of the camp that Starmie is third below Tauros and Dragonite on the list of things to keep free of paralysis. Although there are one or two potential upsides to letting Starmie take paralysis - it reliably blocks sleep from Exeggutor, Jynx, and the rare Hypno - I see there as a lot of potential downsides. Plenty of the things Starmie is meant to check to varying degrees - Tauros, Lapras, Cloyster, Rocks, some rarer things like Moltres, Kingler, Sandslash, and depending on your Starmie set, also Slowbro - have a much easier time versus Starmie if it's paralyzed. Some things where Starmie has a natural speed advantage can be useful even though it's a poor matchup for Starmie, like Zapdos, and Victreebel, are important losses for Starmie too if it takes paralysis. Usually on most teams it'd be better to let Chansey to take paralysis than Starmie. Generally, it's easier to prevent Starmie being paralyzed when Chansey has taken paralysis, than it is to prevent Chansey from being paralyzed when Starmie has taken paralysis. So whilst some players might, for reasons relating both to their personal preference and to their build structure, be fine with letting Starmie take paralysis, others will categorically avoid it at next-to-all costs, and so there is limited predictability of what happens in this scenario. However, Jynx vs Starmie isn't exactly a bad matchup for Jynx anyway so this nuance is little more than that.

    CounterLax + Rock-type

    [​IMG] + [​IMG] / [​IMG]

    This is one of the ideas I'm most proud of because it works really well, although it's only a small part of the game. Unfortunately when the opponent knows what's up it's less effective but even then is still usable.

    So the idea is that in the early game when you reach a Snorlax ditto, you use Counter when the opponent Body Slams, and then switch out to a Rock-type to take a subsequent Self-Destruct, giving you a Snorlax that's still very usable, unlike your opponent. A rock is generally preferable to using a lead Gengar (although if you wanna be Isa and use a non-lead Gengar then good luck!) since they can easily be kept hidden up to this point.

    The down-sides are:
    - It is a little prediction-reliant, but then again that's Counter for you. On a similar note, if the opponent is aware of it then it's notably less effective.
    - The opponent using Reflect or Amnesia Lax can foil the plan.

    That being said, when it is successful it's such a large advantage that if both you and your opponent are evenly matched, or even if your opponent is a bit better than you, it can be enough to, more than swing the game in your favour, give you a near-insurmountable advantage - especially if they're also carrying a Zapdos or Jolteon.

    Overall it's quite a broad, splashable, and moderately subtle concept, making it a good one to consider at the teambuilding stage and to try and keep in mind during battle. My standard team operates with this (using a lead Starmie and a Golem) and occasionally it's appeared on other teams of mine too.

    -

    I have more I'll post another time, I'm sure this is plenty for now. I'm interested to see what else people have to show!
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2016
  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Going to throw out another absolute favourite of mine now!

    Swords Dance Victreebel

    [​IMG]

    So the set you should be running is Sleep Powder / Swords Dance / Hyper Beam / Razor Leaf. Venusaur can do a similar job, and has one or two advantages, but I prefer Victreebel for the notably higher attack stat that not only helps in getting KOs versus Chansey and Alakazam but also means greater damage overall versus bulkier threats such as Tauros, Exeggutor, and Zapdos. The main idea behind it is that you should save it for a point later on in the mid-game. To use it best, you want to have scouted out the majority of the opponent's team (Pokémon like Slowbro, Zapdos, and Dragonite tend to be left till lategame, but most other things can be revealed earlier on) and getting paralysis on crucial things. Alakazam is most commonly seen as a lead and usually pretty easy to paralyze early on, which is the single most crucial bit of practical status spread. It should be paired with Alakazam as a lead usually, since it can paralyze lead Jynx which could otherwise be problematic, and forces out lead Gengar meaning that you can double to Victreebel on the first turn and get sleep, which is about the most it can do in that matchup. It also provides a Psychic-resist which is lacking due to the fact that you ought to be dropping Exeggutor to run Victreebel. If the opponent's not carrying one of Zapdos / Jolteon / Dragonite / Articuno / Moltres / non-lead Gengar / Dodrio / a couple of other even more unlikely things then often the opponent is forced to use Tauros or maybe Starmie to handle Victreebel if it sets up a Swords Dance, which means you can put out of commission something very strong on the opponent's team and potentially sweep after. Other things required for Victreebel to work: If they're running Reflect Zam, try and paralyze it, which should be fairly feasible; Reflect Chansey makes a good partner in particular as a means of luring it out and paralyzing it. Same goes for the rest of that list although it's a lot less feasible to paralyze or remove most of the rest.

    To set Victreebel up, you want to get it in versus something unparalyzed, for example through a double switch although sacrificing something may occasionally be nessecary depending on circumstance. You want to be versus something that is unstatused such as an Exeggutor or Snorlax. You can either Sleep Powder if you think they'll stay in, or Swords Dance if you think they'll go to a sleep absorber. Often the ballsier play pays off, as most sleep absorbers, such as Alakazam (which you should have paralyzed), Chansey, Jynx, or Exeggutor (which if it's switching in here and is paralyzed then should be within Victreebel HB range - 63% is the minimum damage) cannot take a +2 Hyper Beam, and in fact little else can either. If the opponent has to get into a situation where they have Tauros in which has to take the Sleep Powder and try and Body Slam paralyze you or Blizzard freeze you (the first few times I tested the set, Victreebel got frozen... usually but not always this way) then you're in a great position and it happens fairly frequently. Sometimes you won't be so lucky and you'll just end up getting sleep on something like Zapdos which is still okay. Also, since Zapdos and Jolteon can often be problematic for Victreebel, Rhydon and Golem can make great choices for the 6th slot too, but are certainly not the only options (I've considered running Lapras and now that I think about it, Jolteon, too).

    In short: paralyze Alakazam, scout out the opposing team, chip Exeggutor to 63% if you paralyze it, and look for an opportunity to set up and get sleep and a KO if not a sweep, during the later part of the midgame.

    Team structure should look something like Alakazam (maybe other leads could work too?) / Victreebel / Chansey (Reflect has some nice attributes) / Tauros / Snorlax / Filler (not just any filler works, but look at the previous sections to get a good idea of your options). It's pretty dangerous but can be risky at times, and Sleep Powder and Hyper Beam's accuracy as well as Victreebel's mediocre (but by no means dreadful) bulk can bite it in the ass sometimes and defensively it offers very little especially compared to Exeggutor, which is why it's pretty rare and a lot of players (not me) don't like it or use it often. On a personal note, many of my very best games involved the use of this Victreebel. For example here's the replay of the 5th game of International League, of myself versus Alexander, where Victreebel failed to perform due to a bit of bad luck but nonetheless showed how dangerous it could be.

    Edit: Here's another game with SD Victreebel, this time from World Championship Round 3 versus Bedschibaer.

    Edit2: Here's a victory with it versus smilzo in EGL.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017
    P5726 likes this.
  3. P5726

    P5726 Member

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    Had a quick test of the your SD Victreebel and I think it's definitely very fun to play with, and might just work as a surprise 'Special Techniques'!

    I made a few changes:

    Alakazam
    Ability: Synchronize
    - Psychic
    - Thunder Wave
    - Seismic Toss
    - Recover
    Jolteon
    Ability: Volt Absorb
    - Thunderbolt
    - Thunder Wave
    - Pin Missile
    - Double Kick
    Chansey
    Ability: Natural Cure
    - Reflect
    - Thunder Wave
    - Seismic Toss
    - Soft-Boiled
    Golem
    Ability: Rock Head
    - Rock Slide
    - Earthquake
    - Body Slam
    - Explosion
    Victreebel
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    - Sleep Powder
    - Wrap
    - Hyper Beam
    - Swords Dance
    Slowbro
    Ability: Oblivious
    - Thunder Wave
    - Surf
    - Rest
    - Amnesia

    You rightly said that it's important to get things paralyzed - hence this team has huge firepower in terms of paralysis support.

    Two major modifications:

    1. Victreebel drops Razor Leaf for Wrap

    I felt it's just too good an opportunity to not run SD+Wrap combo. It controls the attack. In previous games I managed to just keep on Zapdos without switching out (since when the Wrap cycle finishes I fall back to Golem) and it kept on eating away at Zapdos every time they switched in and out. Of course the rocks are going to be a problem - but the point is they DON'T KNOW you haven't got Razor Leaf - and try to keep that a secret. Besides at +6 Wrap and HBeam can deal as much damage to Rocks as Dragonite's Wrap and Hyper Beam on Exeggutor, which isn't that bad, and a credible threat.

    2. Slowbro replaces Snorlax

    Part of the Wrapnesia concept - but the main thing really is for Slowbro to lure things out such as Starmie to paralyze it. It also provides an alternative avenue of attack through Amnesia. Essentially it partners with Victreebel's physical sweep with it's special sweep. At the same time it gives Victreebel crucial paralysis support, while Victreebel gives Sleep. Two twins. Slowbro also helps absorb Psychic which is needed since the team

    Two minor changes which I don't think are that crucial.

    1. Jolteon replaces Tauros

    A bit of a speed boost, counter to Starmie, as well as more consistent paralysis support. Jolteon can also sweep, and you may need his electricity since Victreebel has no Razor Leaf.

    2. Golem replaces Rhydon

    Hardy an important chance or a necessary one. But just personally I prefer Golem's Explosion, which helps Slowbro a bit more. Also Golem wins 1 v 1 battles against Rhydon, which will come in handy since Victreebel can't be relied upon. The extra sweeping power of Rhydon isn't that important since most of the sweeping will be done by Victreebel and/or Slowbro. Nonetheless it could come in handy since the team benefits from major paralysis support.

    Here's an example of a replay - just very casually. As I said certainly very fun to play with - not sure if it'll work in any serious matches (as a surprise).

    [Gen 1] OU replay: crgarcis vs. trumppence20161109 - Pokémon Showdown

    [Gen 1] OU replay: trumppence20161109 vs. beiyingtest - Pokémon Showdown

    The first game was a relatively easy opponent; in the second game I lost - but due to extreme (they got 3/4 crit hits in a row very bad timing, whilst Victreebel missed two sleep powders) bad luck and I believe having made some mistake on my part (just created a team, need to get used to it). Also in the second game Slowbro got to shine a little bit more.

    A third game against CrapAtRBY

    [Gen 1] OU replay: trumppence20161109 vs. CrapAtRBY - Pokémon Showdown

    Had my share of good and bad luck (I think overall more bad than good, since my Slowbro was killed by Chansey crit hit). Managed to bluff that I had Razor Leaf for quite a while lol.

    Two more games (against not particularly good players):

    [Gen 1] OU replay: trumppence20161109 vs. ArthurTarso - Pokémon Showdown
    [Gen 1] OU replay: dsabdska vs. trumppence20161109 - Pokémon Showdown
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  4. Raish

    Raish Member

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    Thanks for sharing! Yeah we were having a chat in early 2014 where you asked me if there's ever a situation where I thought non-lead Jynx would be worth it because you'd been trying to make it work but hadn't found its place yet, so I suggested this. It was more brutal before the slam change nerfed aggro Lax, but it still helps aggro openings by giving you a better chance of freezing Chansey as it needs to spend a turn Twaving you because their lead didn't get the chance.
     
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  5. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Chansey Information Control

    [​IMG]

    This is one of the ancient dark arts... mostly because hardly anyone runs Counter Chansey any more! The idea is simple though: keep what information you can hidden, and then you can most effectively use your surprises when you want to. This advice mainly goes towards using Ice Beam + Thunderbolt / Ice Beam + Counter Chanseys: Ice Beam is an excellent move. It can freeze, it does the same damage to neutral targets as Thunderbolt, and it hits a lot of crucial Pokemon (like Exeggutor and Rhydon) super-effectively. So don't reveal Thunderbolt if you have it until you need it! And even then, keep it hidden as long as possible. For example, say you have Chansey against Starmie (a fairly common scenario). It is pretty rare for Starmie to stay in, and Ice Beam has so many upsides that your opponent will have a fairly limited pool of switch-ins against it, so the best play, even if you have Thunderbolt, is to use Ice Beam. If Starmie does stay in, the threat of freeze is still very real. Even against sleeping or paralyzed Starmie, there are a lot of merits to keeping Thunderbolt hidden: the threat of Thunderbolt makes staying in repeatedly with Starmie against Chansey very risky, and that unfulfilled threat can work for a long time in games. As Chansey is at little risk of actually being KOed by Starmie, it is not like you need to Thunderbolt it desperately anyway. The advantages to this approach are twofold:
    - You make it riskier for your opponent to assume you lack Counter when you haven't revealed it, because you have played in such a way that it's indistinguishable whether or not you actually are carrying it. This can force your opponent to Earthquake with Snorlax or occasionally Tauros, enabling an easier switch-in to Chansey's partners
    - When you run Counter Chansey, you force your opponent to play around it as if it did in fact carry Thunderbolt. Half of the power of Thunderbolt is in the threat: it forces your opponent to not be cavalier with their Starmie.

    Of course, versus Pokemon like lead Jynx, sometimes using Thunderbolt is simply unavoidable at a certain point. Still, lead Jynx often switch out once Chansey comes into it (so it can block sleep from Exeggutor later on in the game), so when you see a Jynx you may want to not Thunderbolt straight away, keeping the threat alive. Admittedly, in that situation, the risk of freeze is looming so the Jynx user can force the issue if they choose to, so don't take it too far. If you have a way of alternatively handling Jynx (for example, a Lapras or Starmie in the back, or even a sleeping lead Starmie which can sit against Jynx), it may be beneficial to do that when you carry Ice Beam, to keep Chansey's 4th hidden. It is something to think about too in the teambuilder: how you will play the Chansey information game when you use an Ice Beam variant of it.

    Of course, this is one very specific instance of information control, and a lot more could be said, such as regarding Reflect and Sing variants of Chansey, let alone parallel information control games with Pokemon such as Snorlax, Exeggutor, and Victreebel. This is maybe more of a taster, and a simpler situation to describe, but it is an error to not be thinking about the information game when using the still very common Ice Beam variants of Chansey, so hopefully even this specific tidbit of knowledge can be applied to many games! :)
     
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  6. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Interesting. I think it's been a long time since I ran Counter>TWave on Chansey but I think the last time I did so my rationale was the exact opposite- I wanted to reveal Tbolt so as to make my opponents think I lacked Counter, thereby making them unlikely to scout for it and thus making it easier to secure KOs. Looking back on it now, I think it's probably better to conceal Tbolt as you describe in this psot, as the threat of TWave is probably too useful, while revealing Tbolt doesn't seem like a terribly consistent approach- you might not encounter an opportunity to reveal it at all, or until after your opponent has scouted for Counter, or your opponent may not scout for Counter at all.
     
  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Or your opponent might be super-cautious and not assume you have TWave. :p
     
  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    If you run Tbolt + Ice Beam + Counter (which I am not a fan of) you definitely have more bluffing options... it's very rare for Chansey to drop Twave, so it gives you a lot of options with regards to information control too.
     
  9. j2dahop

    j2dahop Member

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    With the popularity of Raish Chansey these days, how bad would it be to bluff with counter, twave, stoss and softboiled? In terms of the physical attackers, it should put you in the same place as the ice beam variant. You use counter on lax and then play the 50/50 mindgame against the Tauros switch in.

    Never really used mono ice beam before, except on that silly substitute Chansey set.
     
  10. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Counter/Stoss/Twave/Softboiled is a decent set. I think Alexander was the first person I saw using it. I'm not an expert on it, so I can't write much about it. That being said, I think it's harder to bluff Reflect than bluff Thunderbolt.
     

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