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RBY OU / 1U (OverUsed) Snorlax [Done]

Discussion in 'Individual Analyses' started by Disaster Area, Jul 19, 2015.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Snorlax [​IMG]
    Type: Normal
    Stats: 160 | 110 | 65 | 65 | 30


    Introduction

    Snorlax is a powerhouse in the OU tier due to its immense power and bulk. It has the strongest Self-Destruct in the game, great STAB moves in Body Slam and Hyper Beam, and good complementary physical coverage in Earthquake. Counter provides an extra dimension to some sets, and Ice Beam, Blizzard, Thunderbolt, and Amnesia give it enough toys specially to add another layer of versatility. Reflect and Rest complete the package, allowing Snorlax to play in a variety of ways. Its mediocre Special and poor Speed hold it back, but it is still a great Pokemon you should prepare for and run on almost every team.

    Sets

    Standard Lax

    Snorlax
    - Body Slam
    - Earthquake
    - Hyper Beam / Counter
    - Self-Destruct

    Set Details

    The standard Snorlax set, utilizing an incredibly powerful STAB Body Slam along with Earthquake coverage, which is only resisted by Aerodactyl. Earthquake also allows it to scout for Counter versus Chansey and opposing Snorlax. Hyper Beam allows it to KO various targets from higher HP ranges; for example, after one Body Slam versus Chansey. Self-Destruct allows it to KO virtually any other Pokemon at the cost of its own life and is an incredibly strong attack. Counter is an option as well, allowing it to secure an advantage against opposing Snorlax, Tauros, and various other Pokemon.

    This Snorlax set should be used to pressure the foe early-game. For example, it can be brought in versus a sleeping target or versus a paralysed Alakazam or Chansey. If they are fully paralysed that turn, you are in a very strong position, forcing them out at low health and preventing them from blocking your other Pokemon as easily. Even if they do recover successfully, they are forced out, allowing Snorlax to have a free turn against the foe.

    ReflectLax

    Snorlax
    - Body Slam
    - Reflect
    - Rest
    - Ice Beam / Earthquake

    Set Details

    ReflectLax is a variant of Snorlax with more staying power, at the cost of less offensive presence. It usually forces out opposing Snorlax and is more difficult for Tauros to break. Ice Beam and Earthquake both provide perfect coverage alongside Body Slam. Ice Beam Snorlax usually beats Earthquake Reflect Snorlax 1 on 1, and does more damage to Rhydon and Golem, however it is unable to scout for Chansey's Counter.

    Less common options such as Self-Destruct and Hyper Beam can viably be run in the last slot, giving an edge due to surprise value in some matchups, but they are less consistent, walled by Gengar, and struggle with Rock-types.

    AmneLax

    Snorlax
    - Amnesia
    - Blizzard / Ice Beam
    - Body Slam
    - Rest

    Set Details

    Whilst Slowbro is generally the best choice for an Amnesia user, Snorlax has some traits that give it a niche. Body Slam allows it to break past paralysed Chansey, and Ice Beam or Blizzard allows it to attempt to freeze an unparalysed Chansey. Blizzard offers more power overall, which enables it to OHKO Golem and Rhydon at +2, as well as 3HKO Snorlax at +2, however Ice Beam offers higher PP, and hence more opportunities to freeze, make it the better choice in some cases. Rest is the main option in the last slot, as it gives Snorlax greater staying power, but other moves such as Self-Destruct or Counter are all usable, though not recommended. Thunderbolt allows it to beat Amnesia Slowbro, as well as Starmie and Lapras, more consistently, but it gives it greater issues with Chansey, as then the only option is freezing it.

    Other Options

    Snorlax has several options other than those listed, with Standard or Reflect variants being the most consistent of those. You should be prepared to face them. TankLax—Snorlax with Rest, Amnesia, and Reflect, and a single attack—sacrifices power for resilience. However, it's inconsistent and every choice of attack faces some significant issues. To counter it, one should scout its attack and then use the appropriate wall; for example, Gengar (for Body Slam) or Lapras (for Ice Beam). If you wish to learn more about TankLax, please read GGFan's post about it here. Lots of other Snorlax sets are possible, utilizing the element of surprise to a greater degree; for example, a set with Amnesia, Blizzard, Thunderbolt or Counter, and Body Slam or Self Destruct sacrifices staying power for surprise and coverage. Sets like this are rare even in tournament play, but you should be aware that they exist.

    Surf is a viable option on Snorlax, albeit with some opportunity cost, as it allows Snorlax to take out Golem or Rhydon for its teammates, rather than having to trade with them. However, it has two flaws. Firstly, it fails to OHKO either of them (although it does upwards of 80%), and secondly, should you reveal it whilst Golem or Rhydon is not in play (for example, switching out of Snorlax), then the surprise factor is lost. Mega Kick is an alternate STAB with more power, but poor PP and accuracy. However, it can 2HKO Chansey. Double-Edge is another STAB option, but the recoil eats into Snorlax's bulk without offering any added benefits. Counter could be run on the standard set over Earthquake or Self-Destruct instead of over Hyper Beam but there are larger downsides to not running those attacks.

    Checks and Counters

    Rest Cloyster is probably the closest thing to a full counter, as it only fears Thunderbolt, but is very easy to force out with teammates such as Zapdos, Alakazam, and Starmie. Porygon is the next-best thing for dedicated walling of Snorlax, with its nice immunity to Body Slam's paralysis and Recover, although AmneLax can overpower it. However, most teams will not opt to carry either of these two Pokemon. Instead, the most standard response to Snorlax is Chansey. Chansey, particularly with Reflect, is a great answer to Snorlax, though it cannot check Snorlax if it is paralysed (unless it has Reflect set up). It does not fear paralysis from Snorlax, as Normal-types in RBY cannot be paralyzed by Body Slam, but it still fears Self-Destruct or a potential freeze from certain sets. Chansey can also use Counter versus Snorlax. ReflectLax is good at handling other Snorlax variants, although AmneLax can overpower it. In general, using your own Snorlax to wear down the opposing Snorlax is a common strategy. Counter can help in that regard too. Golem and to a lesser extent Rhydon can handle Snorlax fairly well, as they resist Body Slam, but they fear some of Snorlax's special arsenal, and struggle versus Reflect. Gengar is a mediocre check, but it answers sets without Earthquake pretty well. Zapdos is bulky, fast, and has a strong Special STAB move, making it great at pressuring ReflectLax. Slowbro, Lapras, and standard Exeggutor can all switch into Snorlax and deal considerable damage, sometimes forcing it out, which is particularly useful versus ReflectLax. Explosion users such as Exeggutor, Golem, and Gengar can all be used in an emergency against non-Reflect variants of Snorlax to take it out. More gimmicky means of handling Snorlax exist, such as Leech Seed + Rest Exeggutor can take on any Snorlax without Ice-type moves, but it still takes heavy damage from Body Slam and dislikes paralysis. Outside of sets with Ice Beam and Surf, Snorlax is easily walled by Aerodactyl. However, it is easily walled by Ghost- and Rock-types and is not particularly powerful, which means its only niche is walling Snorlax, though its higher critical hit rate means it can break through Reflect more easily than most physical attackers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
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  2. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I'd personally just move Surf to OO. It's not worth another set especially when the opportunity cost of forgoing something like HBeam is pretty big
     
  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    sure, wasn't quite sure whether I felt it was set-worthy or not.
     
  4. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    No longer WIP. :]
     
  5. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I noticed C&C is missing a lot of common responses to Lax. Bro, standard Egg, Lapras all switch in and do considerable damage. They might have a tough time actually beating Lax if they're switching in, but they all do enough damage that Lax isn't going to accomplish much from that point forward (and Lax usually switches out anyway)

    Also it isn't just special attacking sets that GolDon fear but also Reflect as well, since they can't break through it. Basically they're ineffective checks against anything that isn't FishLax. Good thing it's by far the most common set
     
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  6. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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  7. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    GSCLax should definitely be on this analysis, especially since you listed Amnesia/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Rest as one of its main sets, which almost nobody has ran in years. If anything, this variant of Snorlax should be listed under "other options," as AmnesiaLax usually has a physical attack and sometimes SelfDestruct over Rest.

    GSCLax
    ~Body Slam
    ~Reflect
    ~Amnesia
    ~Rest

    Popularized (and probably invented) by SamTheDigital (SamG), GSCLax made its debut in competitive play towards the end of 2006. After making appearances in a few tournaments, it wasn't seen again until 2011, when it was a major part of my Hector Gold team. Since then, GSCLax is used once in a while in games ranging from meaningless exhibitions to big tournaments.

    Unlike other variants of Snorlax that underscore the big guy's domineering physical prowess, GSCLax sacrifices power for resilience. With his massive HP and adequate defenses, Snorlax can easily afford a turn to raise either Special or Defense. After one Amnesia and with Reflect up, Snorlax is the most formidable tank in the game; when fully set up, Pokemon that normally give Snorlax a lot of trouble, such as Lapras and Starmie, are now the ones that need to get lucky.

    It's actually not that difficult to set up; however, Snorlax's absence of sweeping potential is the problem here. Chansey, for example, walls Snorlax with ease, especially since Snorlax can't paralyze her on his own. Golem can shrug off Body Slams and take off a considerable chunk of Snorlax's HP thanks to Explosion. Slowbro can force a war of attrition. Finally, Gengar can switch into anything with impunity. Furthermore, GSCLax, like Slowbro, is a bad luck magnet and will fall victim to untimely critical hits.

    GSCLax isn't the most reliable Snorlax set, but it can be effective if you're trying to surprise your opponent by using it once in a bo3 or bo5.
     
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  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I enjoy hearing the history side of thing. I think maybe it would just be better to remove Thunderbolt from the slashing, and add in some of your comments in the appropriate section in other options. Good stuff!
     
  9. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    Feel free to c/p what I wrote into the OP.
     
  10. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Lax's sets are complicated and require a ton of sections.
    GSC Lax can be obtained by simply

    ReflectLax

    Snorlax
    - Body Slam
    - Reflect
    - Rest
    - Earthquake / Ice Beam/Amnesia,
    or with a dedicated section (it has specific counters to talk about etc).

    Amnesia has 2 different purposes (so I think different sectons): Ice Beam+Body Slam+Rest to last longer, or Thunderbolt+Blizzard+Body Slam to create holes. The second set really hates to switch out, so exploders can come in and ruin his day (but obviously switching in is risky, and Explodiong is predictable).

    Again, Snorlax sets need a massive work.
     
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    updated.

    I wanted the analysis to be a little friendlier to newer users, so I only focussed n 3 sets having full analyses, with the rest getting some discussion in OO. If you want to write more in-depth expert analyses Marco/GGFan feel free to, there is no harm in having multiple analyses for the same Pokémon, especially one such as Snorlax.
     
  12. Smallguy

    Smallguy Member

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    Unofficial AMCheck

    Delete (DC)=Delete Comma

    Add (AC)=Add Comma
    Comments
    [​IMG]
    Type: Normal
    Stats: 160 | 110 | 65 | 65 | 30


    Introduction

    Snorlax is a powerhouse of in the OU tier, with due to its immense power and bulk. It has the strongest self-KOing move in the game with its STAB Self-Destruct in the game, great STABs in Body Slam and Hyper Beam, and good complementary physical coverage in Earthquake(DC)(Add period) Counter providing provides an extra dimension to some sets, and Ice Beam, Blizzard, Thunderbolt, and Amnesia giving give it enough toys on the Special side to add another layer of versatility, and (Add period)Reflect and Rest completing complete the package, allowing it Snorlax to play in a variety of ways. Its mediocre Special and poor Speed hold it back from being unstoppable, but it is still a great Pokemon you should prepare for, and run on(AC) almost every team.

    Sets

    Standard Lax

    Snorlax
    - Body Slam
    - Earthquake
    - Hyper Beam / Counter
    - Self-Destruct / Counter

    Set Details

    The standard Snorlax, utilizing an incredibly powerful STAB Body Slam along with Earthquake coverage, which is only resisted by Aerodactyl with Body Slam being an incredibly powerful STAB attack, with Earthquake hitting all Pokemon resistant or immune to it, other than the virtually never seen Aerodactyl. Earthquake also allows it to scout for Counter versus Chansey and opposing Snorlax. Hyper Beam allows it to KO various targets at from higher HP ranges, for example(AC) after one Body Slam versus Chansey. Self-Destruct allows it to KO virtually any other Pokemon at the cost of its own life trade with virtually any Pokemon, and is an incredibly strong attack. Counter is an option as well a potent option, allowing it to secure an advantage against opposing Snorlax, Tauros, and various other Pokemon.

    The best way in general to play this This Snorlax is to use it should be used to pressure the opponent early game. For example, it could can be brought in versus a sleeping target, or versus a paralyzed Alakazam or Chansey in range of its attacks, when it is predicted that they will attempt to recover with Recover or Softboiled, respectively. What do you mean by "in range of its attacks"? If you mean by in KO range, wouldn't Recover/Softboiled take them out of KO range? I think it runs smoother if the last part of that sentence is just deleted If they fully paralyze are fully paralyzed that turn you are in a very strong position, forcing them out at low health and preventing them from blocking your other Pokemon so as easily. Even if they do move recover successfully, particularly in Alakazam's case, they are forced out, allowing Snorlax to have a free turn against the opponent. Oh. I gotcha. My previous deletion still stands, as you basically explain the rest of the sentence anyways.

    ReflectLax

    Snorlax
    - Body Slam
    - Reflect
    - Rest
    - Earthquake / Ice Beam

    Set Details

    ReflectLax is a potent variant of Snorlax with more staying power, at the cost of less offensive presence being less aggressive. It usually forces out opposing Snorlax in mirror matchups, as well as making it and is more difficult for Tauros to break. Body Slam and Earthquake give perfect coverage, but Ice Beam is an option over Earthquake, giving it a huge an edge against Ditto due to the freeze chance in ReflectLax dittos - due to the opportunity to freeze, as well as hitting Rhydon and Golem harder. However, it's less helpful versus paralyzed Chansey, as it makes it much more difficult to scout for Counter.

    Weirder Less common options such as Hyper Beam, Self-Destruct, and Counter could can all viably be run in the last slot, giving an edge due to surprise value in some matchups, but are overall less consistent.

    AmneLax

    Snorlax
    - Amnesia
    - Ice Beam / Blizzard
    - Body Slam
    - Rest

    Set Details

    Whilst Slowbro is generally the best choice of for an Amnesia user, Snorlax has some traits that give it a niche make it superior in some matchups. Body Slam allows it to break past paralyzed Chansey - if paralyzed - whilst while Ice Beam or Blizzard allows it to attempt to Freeze an unparalyzed Chansey. Blizzard should be used over Ice Beam if you want to OHKO Golem and Rhydon at +2, otherwise the advantage of PP and thus greater opportunity to freeze makes Ice Beam Ice Beam's higher PP and thus more opportunities to freeze make it the better choice. Rest is the main option in the last slot, as it gives giving Snorlax greater staying power, but other moves such as Self-Destruct, Counter, or another attack running 3 attacks are all usable(AC) - although not recommended. Thunderbolt allows it to beat Amnesia Slowbro, as well as beat Starmie and Lapras(AC) more consistently, but gives it greater issues with Chansey, as then the only option is freezing it only being able to hope to freeze it.

    Other Options

    Snorlax has several options other than those listed - with Standard or Reflect variants being the most consistent and potent of those already explained in greater detail. Whilst these other sets have not been given full sets and analyses, it is still worthwhile to occasionally run an unlisted set, particularly in a tournament. You should be prepared to face them. TankLax (known by some as GSCLax) - Snorlax with Rest, Amnesia, and Reflect, as well as a and a single attack, can occasionally destroy teams, and sacrifices power for resilience. However, it's inconsistent and every choice of attack faces some sort of problems. In terms of playing against it, what is most important is to find out what attack it is running and then wall it, for example with a Gengar or a Lapras To counter it, one should scout its attack and then use the appropriate wall, for example, Gengar or Lapras. GSCLax faces some competition from with m9mbro (Slowbro with Amnesia, Rest and Withdraw), which sets up versus on Alakazam much more easily - albeit though Snorlax's edge is in its potential versatility of attacks on that set. If you wish to read more about GSCLax, please read GGFan's fantastic post about it here. Lots of other Snorlax sets are possible, working on utilizing the element of surprise to a greater degree(DC) (Add semicolon) for example a set with Amnesia, Blizzard, Thunderbolt or Counter, and Body Slam or Selfdestruct sacrifices staying power for surprise and coverage.Sets like this are rare even in tournament play, but you must be prepared to come across one occasionally.

    Surf is a viable option on Snorlax, albeit with some opportunity cost, allowing it as it allows Snorlax to take out Golem or Rhydon for its teammates, rather than having to trade with them. However, it has 2 flaws - firstly, it fails to OHKO either of them (although doing it does upwards of 80%), and secondly, should you reveal it whilst Golem or Rhydon is not in play (for example, switching out of Snorlax), then the surprise factor is lost they will be kept alive for the duration of the match to prevent whatever on your team that is walled by it (such as Zapdos, Jolteon, or Dodrio) from being effective. You go into more specifics, which is great, but honestly, I think it's fine to just say that it won't be a lure anymore Mega Kick is an alternate STAB, with more power, but poor PP and accuracy. However, it can 2HKO Chansey. Double edge is another STAB option, but the recoil eats into Snorlax's bulk without offering any added benefits staying power, without the added power of it offering much benefit. Finally, Seismic Toss lets it get consistent, but fairly weak in some cases, damage versus any opponent, whilst and Harden could be run over Reflect on any set for more PP and the ability to gain immense physical bulk the capacity to become wholly invulnerable on the physical side, and for extra PP.

    Checks and Counters

    Rest Cloyster is probably the closest thing to a full counter as it only fears Thunderbolt, - only really fearing Thunderbolt - but it is very easy to force it out with teammates such as Zapdos, Alakazam, and Starmie. Chansey - particularly with Reflect - is a great answer to Snorlax, though it cannot check Snorlax if it is paralyzed. It does not fear paralysis from Snorlax as Normal-types in RBY cannot be paralyzed by Body Slamm, but it still fears Self-Destruct or a potential freeze albeit it no longer answers it when paralyzed. Body Slam being unable to paralyze Normal-types in RBY however makes Chansey unafraid of anything Snorlax throws at it other than Self-Destruct or attacks with the possibility of freezing it. Chansey can also use Counter versus Snorlax. ReflectLax is good at handling other Snorlax variants - although AmneLax can overpower it - and in general, using Snorlax to wear down the opposing Snorlax is a common strategy pretty common. Counter can help in that regard too. Golem and to a lesser extent Rhydon can handle Snorlax fairly well, resisting as they resist Body Slam, but they fear some of Snorlax's lesser-seen moves in its special arsenal, as well as Reflect. Leech Seed Rest Exeggutor can take on any Snorlax without Ice-type moves, but still takes quite heavy damage from Body Slam and dislikes paralysis. Gengar is a mediocre check, but answers sets without Earthquake pretty well. Zapdos is bulky, fast, and has a strong Special STAB, making it challenging for Snorlax to handle, but it fears Amnesia sets. Slowbro, Lapras, and standard Exeggutor can all switch into Snorlax and do considerable damage, sometimes forcing it out. Outside of sets with Ice Beam and Surf, Snorlax is easily walled by AerodactylAerodactyl walls Snorlax easily - however it is itself walled by Ghost and Rock types, is quite frail, and is not particularly powerful - indeed, walling Snorlax is the only thing to give it any sort of a niche. However, it is easily walled by Ghost and Rock types and is not particularly powerful, which means its only niche is walling Snorlax, though its higher crit rate means it can break through Reflect more easily than most physical attackers. At least its high crit rate means it's less bothered by Reflect than most physical attackers.
     
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  13. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    ReflectLax

    Snorlax
    - Body Slam
    - Reflect
    - Rest
    - Earthquake / Ice Beam/Selfdestruct


    AmneLax (Rest)

    Snorlax
    - Amnesia
    - Ice Beam
    - Body Slam
    - Rest

    AmneLax (All Out)

    Snorlax
    - Amnesia
    - Blizzard
    - Thunderbolt/Counter
    - Body Slam/Selfdestruct
     
  14. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Rhythms can you review the AMcheck on here?
     
  15. Sobi

    Sobi hi Member

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    Disaster Area please implement the above amcheck. I will look at the analysis after you do so.
     
  16. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Will do
     
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  17. Sobi

    Sobi hi Member

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    [​IMG]
    Type: Normal
    Stats: 160 | 110 | 65 | 65 | 30

    Introduction

    Snorlax is a powerhouse in the OU tier due to its immense power and bulk. It has the strongest Self-Destruct in the game, great STAB moves in Body Slam and Hyper Beam, and good complementary physical coverage in Earthquake. Counter provides an extra dimension to some sets, and Ice Beam, Blizzard, Thunderbolt, and Amnesia give it enough toys specially to add another layer of versatility. Reflect and Rest complete the package, allowing Snorlax to play in a variety of ways. Its mediocre Special and poor Speed hold it back, but it is still a great Pokemon you should prepare for and run on almost every team.

    Sets

    Standard Lax

    Snorlax
    - Body Slam
    - Earthquake
    - Hyper Beam / Counter
    - Self-Destruct / Counter

    Set Details

    The standard Snorlax set, utilizing an incredibly powerful STAB Body Slam along with Earthquake coverage, which is only resisted by Aerodactyl. Earthquake also allows it to scout for Counter versus Chansey and opposing Snorlax. Hyper Beam allows it to KO various targets from higher HP ranges; for example, after one Body Slam versus Chansey. Self-Destruct allows it to KO virtually any other Pokemon at the cost of its own life and is an incredibly strong attack. Counter is an option as well, allowing it to secure an advantage against opposing Snorlax, Tauros, and various other Pokemon.

    This Snorlax set should be used to pressure the foe early-game. For example, it can be brought in versus a sleeping target or versus a paralysed Alakazam or Chansey. If they are fully paralysed that turn, you are in a very strong position, forcing them out at low health and preventing them from blocking your other Pokemon as easily. Even if they do recover successfully, they are forced out, allowing Snorlax to have a free turn against the foe.

    ReflectLax

    Snorlax
    - Body Slam
    - Reflect
    - Rest
    - Earthquake / Ice Beam

    Set Details

    ReflectLax is a variant of Snorlax with more staying power, at the cost of less offensive presence. It usually forces out opposing Snorlax and is more difficult for Tauros to break. Body Slam and Earthquake give perfect coverage, but Ice Beam is an option over Earthquake, giving it an edge against ReflectLax dittos due to the freeze chance, as well as hitting Rhydon and Golem harder. However, it's less helpful versus paralysed Chansey, as it makes it much more difficult to scout for Counter.

    Less common options such as Hyper Beam, Self-Destruct, and Counter can all viably be run in the last slot, giving an edge due to surprise value in some matchups, but they are less consistent.

    AmneLax

    Snorlax
    - Amnesia
    - Ice Beam / Blizzard
    - Body Slam
    - Rest

    Set Details

    Whilst Slowbro is generally the best choice for an Amnesia user, Snorlax has some traits that give it a niche. Body Slam allows it to break past paralysed Chansey, and Ice Beam or Blizzard allows it to attempt to freeze an unparalysed Chansey. Blizzard should be used over Ice Beam if Snorlax wants to OHKO Golem and Rhydon at +2; otherwise, Ice Beam's higher PP and more opportunities to freeze make it the better choice. Rest is the main option in the last slot, as it gives Snorlax greater staying power, but other moves such as Self-Destruct or Counter are all usable, though not recommended. Thunderbolt allows it to beat Amnesia Slowbro, as well as Starmie and Lapras, more consistently, but it gives it greater issues with Chansey, as then the only option is freezing it.

    Other Options

    Snorlax has several options other than those listed, with Standard or Reflect variants being the most consistent of those. You should be prepared to face them. TankLax (known by some as GSCLax)—Snorlax with Rest, Amnesia, and Reflect, and a single attack—sacrifices power for resilience. However, it's inconsistent and every choice of attack faces some. To counter it, one should scout its attack and then use the appropriate wall; for example, Gengar or Lapras. GSCLax faces some competition from m9mbro (Slowbro with Amnesia, Rest, and Withdraw), which sets up on Alakazam much more easily, though Snorlax's edge is in its potential versatility of attacks on that set. If you wish to read more about GSCLax, please read GGFan's fantastic post about it here. Lots of other Snorlax sets are possible, utilizing the element of surprise to a greater degree; for example, a set with Amnesia, Blizzard, Thunderbolt, or Counter, and Body Slam or Self Destruct sacrifices staying power for surprise and coverage. Sets like this are rare even in tournament play, but you must be prepared to come across one.

    Surf is a viable option on Snorlax, albeit with some opportunity cost, as it allows Snorlax to take out Golem or Rhydon for its teammates, rather than having to trade with them. However, it has two flaws. Firstly, it fails to OHKO either of them (although it does upwards of 80%), and secondly, should you reveal it whilst Golem or Rhydon is not in play (for example, switching out of Snorlax), then the surprise factor is lost. Mega Kick is an alternate STAB with more power, but poor PP and accuracy. However, it can 2HKO Chansey. Double-Edge is another STAB option, but the recoil eats into Snorlax's bulk without offering any added benefits. Finally, Seismic Toss lets it get consistent, but weak in some cases, and Harden could be run over Reflect on any set for more PP and the ability to gain immense physical bulk.

    Checks and Counters

    Rest Cloyster is probably the closest thing to a full counter, as it only fears Thunderbolt, but is very easy to force out with teammates such as Zapdos, Alakazam, and Starmie. Chansey, particularly with Reflect, is a great answer to Snorlax, though it cannot check Snorlax if it is paralysed. It does not fear paralysis from Snorlax, as Normal-types in RBY cannot be paralyzed by Body Slam, but it still fears Self-Destruct or a potential freeze. Chansey can also use Counter versus Snorlax. ReflectLax is good at handling other Snorlax variants, although AmneLax can overpower it, and in general, using Snorlax to wear down the opposing Snorlax is a common strategy. Counter can help in that regard too. Golem and to a lesser extent Rhydon can handle Snorlax fairly well, as they resist Body Slam, but they fear some of Snorlax's special arsenal, as well as Reflect. Leech Seed + Rest Exeggutor can take on any Snorlax without Ice-type moves, but it still takes heavy damage from Body Slam and dislikes paralysis. Gengar is a mediocre check, but it answers sets without Earthquake pretty well. Zapdos is bulky, fast, and has a strong Special STAB move, making it challenging for Snorlax to handle, but it fears Amnesia sets. Slowbro, Lapras, and standard Exeggutor can all switch into Snorlax and deal considerable damage, sometimes forcing it out. Outside of sets with Ice Beam and Surf, Snorlax is easily walled by Aerodactyl. However, it is easily walled by Ghost- and Rock-types and is not particularly powerful, which means its only niche is walling Snorlax, though its higher critical hit rate means it can break through Reflect more easily than most physical attackers.

    implemented amcheck with my additional changes, GP 1/1
     
  18. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Snorlax
    - Body Slam
    - Earthquake
    - Hyper Beam / Counter
    - Self-Destruct / Counter

    Shouldn't Counter be slashed with Hyper Beam and Earthquake rather than Self-Destruct ? Hbeam + Counter is pretty cool except vs certain things obv but dropping SD without running Rest seems like a pretty big loss with little gain in most of the situations to me (although it's an option, but is it a main one ?) I feel like SD is waay more mandatory than EQ
     
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  19. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I feel like Counter should just only be slashed after HB. But I guess it's usable over either of eq or self-destruct if u rly want.
     
  20. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Yea well or just slashed after Hbeam which is the standard with a mention in OO that you can be funky, my post was mainly about not having anything slashed after SD
     
  21. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    A few things:

    Thunderbolt doesn't give AmnesiaLax THAT much of a disadvantage vs. Chansey, provided you're using Blizzard with it and not Ice Beam. +6 Blizzard 3HKOs (same amount as Body Slam), so a paralyzed Chansey isn't that well off against it if it FPs. Thunder is also something to consider as an alternative to Thunderbolt, as you can try to conserve your Blizzard PP vs. Chansey by waiting for Thunder to hit first to get the first 1/3rd taken out, then follow up with 2 Blizzards to try and KO it. Plus Thunderbolt/Thunder gives AmnesiaLax the capacity to paralyze an unstatused Chansey, though if freeze is available I'd imagine players would opt for that first.

    I've played with Fire Blast + Solar Beam Amnesia Snorlax and it is surprisingly not unusable. I know that it'd make certain people cringe (hi Peas) and isn't at all something one should use seriously, but I've been able to win some games with it against competent players and if Seismic Toss on Lax of all things can be OO mentioned, then this can too. Psychic could use a mention too.

    "Finally, Seismic Toss lets it get consistent, but weak in some cases," - you meant 'consistent damage' there right?
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
  22. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    No offense DA, but in my honest opinion we should not include stuff like Seismic Toss in a Snorlax analysis, not even in other options, it is just ridiculous. (same goes for Substitute on Chansey, the way I understood it, you even state in the Chansey analysis that in practice it is not worth it, so why the hell even mention it?). If our analysis are featuring such options, we might as well just list moves they learn,cause, hey, they are options, right?
    We should keep the analysis to what is actually useful, Seismic Toss or Solar Beam on Snorlax or Substitute on Chansey are not...
     
  23. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Stoss could definitely be removed from this tbh.

    I actually think it's a viable and in some circumstances even good set, but I wanted it to be clear that most of the time it's not what you should be using. j2dahop got a couple of wins with it versus mister tim in MT32 R1 (I gave him a team I built with the set) so I'll defend it as an actual viable set but with the understanding that it is a gimmickier option for Chansey than most of what else is listed.

    Part of the point of OO is describing stuff that fills some sort of a niche but currently is not in favour, and explaining why those moves aren't considered as viable. I think it's better just to be critical of specific cases of OO mentions where you think that it's so far out that it doesn't even deserve a mention.

    In particular this analysis is quite old and is one I felt like I didn't necessarily do the best of jobs on / that I was the best person to write it so I'm probably more open to criticisms on this anyway
     
  24. j2dahop

    j2dahop Member

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    Sub Chansey isn't a terrible choice if you know your opponent loves the freeze war. In my case with Tim, it forced his Chansey out and allowed me to freeze Snorlax on the switch. Afterward, I found out why boom has more than 1 pp. Effectively, sub Chansey wound up being a two for one which took out lax and his eggy
     
  25. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    This is the snorlax thread though, but I'd like to point out something

    Sub IS a terrible choice, like you forced chansey out and you said it worked because you froze snorlax but it's not sub that froze lax lol it's ice beam, if you had ibeamed the chans it would've froze it too, what's strong here is ice beam, not sub. If your opponent loves freeze war and sees you've subbed he just twaves and goes to something else, or just goes to anything that isn't weak to tbolt/twave anymore since you've dropped one of these move so you now gave more options to your opponent by playing sub (while not giving yourself more, but by reducing them because you lost very good all around move)

    Here you just got lucky regardless of sub, it's a terrible move because it doesn't improve any match-up, i was going to make the list but i realised how obvious it should be. Just don't drop a good move for sub lol

    It's what I don't like with OOs in analyses, it doesn't point out enough how much opportunity cost you lose. Just because fblast sbeam lax can work and put work in that 1 out of 136 battle against that terrible ladder player who made mistakes against your otherwise standard as fuck good team, doesn't mean it's good in any way, and just because something wins doesn't mean it's good either especially if it needs luck to do so. In this case this snorlax set makes no sense, because amneblizz is far better. Please don't point out the 2 or 3 super specific scenarios in which it's better because it's 2 or 3 out of 200, because i bet you i could find a counter strategy that exploits this bad set in the said scenario anyway, and because you lose SOOOO much on not playing an actual good set

    "but I've been able to win some games with it against competent players and if Seismic Toss on Lax of all things can be OO mentioned, then this can too."

    wrong process, the truth is none of these moves should even be considered because they're absolute garbage and you should stick with what is strong
     
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  26. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    sub chansey is kinda legit lol at least enough for end of OO, I think it's a decent set and I would be confident using it in a tournament, at least vs certain opponents

    and can we point out specifically moves that don't make sense in OO on a case by case rather than the process

    good point about the opportunity cost but again something you should comment on analysis by analysis, obviously opportunity cost is the biggest argument against a lot of things but that should be spelt out

    with sub chansey the opportunity cost is not being able to hurt a lot of pokemon (like lapras, starmie, etc) in return for being as strong as possible in the chansey vs chansey freeze war. Obviously, this trade isn't a great one which is why it's only an OO mention, but there are real upsides to it as well as real downsides because of the opportunity cost. It can also be used to force paralysis on snorlax / sometimes other pokemon, since if you force out chansey then that means you can spread paralysis versus other targets.

    And I mean I actually explicitly mentioned opportunity cost in this analysis's OO and seismic toss is like the only thing that really needs to be removed, everything else is arguable here

    the fire blast shit isn't even mentioned in the analysis and it's a shitty gimmick enigami and I were trying out ???

    tl;dr: sub chansey has merit, I'll remove stoss lax from the analysis, opportunity cost is an important point, and you over-reacted a bit
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
  27. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Harden/Reflect + Amnesia Lax doesn't have to use Body Slam. There are other damaging moves that work, like Ice Beam.

    Ice Beam and Surf on Lax kinda suck because Blizzard gets the 2HKO on GolDon (and OHKO at +2) while Ice Beam doesn't (and Surf doesn't get the OHKO unboosted). The exception is if you're monoattacking, because then Blizzard's PP is likely to run out. Even on Rest Lax, if you're running Body Slam as well (and not running Reflect) you're unlikely to run out of Blizzards before Lax gets KOed.

    The Amnesia + Selfdestruct surprise set I've most often seen and used has Normal + Ice attacks in the other two slots. In No Solo Para Los Australianos I used that set (with Mega Kick). Speaking of MK, it's almost as likely to get the 2HKO on Starmie after accuracy as Body Slam + Hyper Beam (IIRC I KOed a Starmie that way in said match).

    Also, that "m9mbro" thing is still hilarious.
     
  28. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Put Blizzard ahead of Ice Beam in the slashes on AmneLax.
     
  29. TuffHunter

    TuffHunter Member

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    While it is walled by Gengar I've used and seen the BodySlam/Reflect/Rest/Self-Destruct variant. Uber tank that can still pick off any threat.
     
  30. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    That's mentioned in the details under ReflectLax
     
  31. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    It feels weird to reference the meta so much, since normally RBY moves at such a glacial pace that trends aren't really a thing, but non-Rest Lax is by far the worst form of Lax imo atm, so maybe rearrange the sets? The fact that simply loses to both Reflect Normals is really bad

    Also regarding AmnesiaLax, maybe mention that +2 Blizz 3HKOs Lax, which IB fails to do.
     
  32. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Is non rest lax really the worst of the 3 right now?

    I'm fine w/ swapping non rest lax w reflect lax but I'm surprised at the notion that amnelax is better than it too.

    I'll mention that 3hko
     
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  33. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    Amnesia lax is the worst Lax (still good but we are comparing), as he is the only Lax set who doesn't switch on Body Slam (both of Tauros and Snorlax) when you need it, he can't Reflect or Boom, to recover some momentum back which is something super valuable. Also the Reflectless+Rest combo makes it Tauros food pretty much especially if he comes when you have 0 sleep burned.
     
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  34. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    A lot of the things I'm about to drop are coming out altogether...

    I think that ReflectLax has many things going its way, but if you can't deal with Reflect Chansey that's not due to PhysLax alone: use a Reflect Chansey of your own! And maybe just try to figure some way out for games where you just trade Snorlax for Chansey.

    Amnesialax is the worse version of Snorlax for the reasons Troller just wrote; on the other hand it's the thing that's supposed to beat ReflectLax, even though there are plays around it.
    I'm curious to see how things will change and enstablish in the long run.
     
  35. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    The thing I dislike about relying on your own Reflect Chansey is that you're not necessarily generating an advantage. If you're both paralysed you just kinda sit there doing nothing, waiting for the opponent to get bored. If your opp is paralysed and you aren't, then you lose the stall war. Basically your own Reflect Chansey is a shaky countermeasure to opposing Chansey.
     
  36. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Yeah, it obviously isn't the ultimate answer, but there's more with that. You can switch between it and Starmie if that's your lead, or the whole thing could be a lot more simple: they might be happy TWaving you as soon as possible because unpara'd Reflect Chansey can be such an annoiance later in the game and they aren't Ice Beam.
    Well, the main point is still that trading Snorlax for Reflect Chansey while having your own unstatused Reflect Chansey and Lapras/Zapdos/Starmie in the back should look good for you.

    Actually, I understand that having to deal with para'd Alakazam without Snorlax can be awkward, but you're using Tauros or exploding Exeggutor (if you have Lapras) at worst.
     
  37. Linkin Karp

    Linkin Karp 从来没有幸运,但有时橡胶鸭子。 Season Host

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    Reword that. Having Hbeam in that slot makes it much more difficult to scout for Counter. IB over EQ deals less damage, which is a minor inconvenience. And aside from being walled by Gengar, this is literally the only downside IB has over EQ. We have seen IB become the default choice over the last few months, and the analysis should reflect that.
    Also remove all these ridiculous names. No one ever says "ItaLax", "PiexLax" (sorry DA) or "GSCLax". Those are Boom Restlax, Hbeam Restlax and Tanklax.
    On another note, should we really put Rest Cloyster, a gimmicky and borderline unviable set/mon, in the first sentence of the "Checks and Counters" section? Maybe it's the only real counter, but then we should rather put an emphasis on the fact that there are no hard counters (like for almost everything in RBY) and focus on the way viable mons can counterplay it. Push that first sentence somewhere at the end.
     
  38. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    I think Porygon needs to be added to C&C for its ability to wall the best Snorlax sets (ReflectLax comfortably, PhysLax a little less so if a crit happens, only fails to wall AmnesiaLax). Aerodactyl of all things is mentioned there, and IBReflect Lax is currently all the rage and Aerodactyl doesn't do squat against that while Porygon trades Ice Beams all day until one of them gets frozen or Snorlax is forced to Rest.
     
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  39. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I reorganised and rewrote a few things.
     
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  40. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    I say "GSCLax" because that's the set's name. I never say "TankLax."
     

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