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GSC Sleep Trap Perish Song.

Discussion in 'Analysis and Research' started by Roostur, Jul 5, 2017.

  1. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    I was totally against this. I glanced at it like everyone else did and thought "hmmm. Trapping a poke, sleeping it, then killing it with perish song sounds cheap, let it stay banned." The status quo was all I knew and like everyone else my opinion was made on ignorance. After realizing that a consensus to ban it was never actually reached with the old players who actually played in the meta where this strategy was allowed, and then subsequently testing this strategy by playing games against myself, I have come to the conclusion that is completely, arbitrarily banned.

    For people confused about what I'm talking about a consensus never being reached by players of the old meta, here is an admission by Borat he posted on Smogon.

    i'll let you in on a bit of a secret. through gsc history, i was actually the only person against sleep trapping as a whole. to me a jynx running nightmare/ib over psong is every bit as good. getting trap spored by smeargle is every bit as retarded. but that whole bit about it "having been banned in plenty of tournaments" or "vets being split between it and just a sleep perish trap ban" is anecdotal evidence, aka i made it all up. at first it was to see if i could get away with it, this was al the way back in 2006 or 2007 mind you, to see if i could get the metagame to change because it was something I felt was cheap, literally nobody else felt this way. ask vil, floppy, g80, karrot, mr.e, havoc or whoevers left from that era, sleep trap wasn't a thing at all. i'm full of bullshit. but sleep trap had sort of a ring to it when you say it. sleep trap vs sleep perish trap is really just a typo away from each other, and they're both really easy to justify IF we play the history card. the requirements to keeping something the same is much lower than the requirements for change, and that's ok, that's how life is. look at how hard it is to amend the constitution. look at how difficult it is to get faster internet in the us - the initial 768kbps definition for dsl is totally arbitrary, look how retardedly hard it is to change that. basically, it's funny that people use arbitrary to classify the hp legend ban, when there's actually CONCRETE evidence for it having existed, whereas i've shadily gotten away with amending the gsc ruleset for the past 7 years or whatever. when po started, i made the initial set of gsc tiers; i also made the initial ruleset where i casually tried to solidify the clause. it worked. for 5 years i'd been arguing and lying that it had always been a controversial clause. MY ASS. literally only i gave a shit. if we bring up "sleep trap" now, nobody would be like "yeah that's random as fuck", because i basically lied and my guides got popular and people took it as fact. but clearly the idea was good and so people accepted it, and it was a lot easier to argue on equal footing as to why it's justified rather than trying to ratify a sweeping change. if we did a flat comparison between "sleep trap" and "sleep ptrap" now it'd be much closer to a split decision. so now you know. i'm just a cheater. i'm the highest form of cheating. i cheat so hard the rules change around my cheating so that i'm not even cheating.

    The reason no one else thought it was cheap is because it isn't. It is obviously good but it isn't THAT good. There are counters to it. The main one I've used is Raikou with sleep talk, rest, crunch, and thunderbolt. For gengar or missy to even use this strat he has to not run any sleep inducing move on any other poke. If raikou is under any status condition, gengar is now completely useless. So it can be hard to even get the sleep trapping started, but even if you do, I don't know the exact chances for success but if you do trap a status free raikou, through my testing the chances seem to be around 50/50 for actually killing it. It is an all or nothing move. You either die, or he dies. And, of course raikou isn't the only counter. There are others.

    The point is that there is no reason for this to be banned. It is obviously not banned because "it is broken", and if it stays banned it won't be because it is cheap, it will be because people are happy with the status quo. I made this post with 0 hope that this will be unbanned. I just wanted everyone to know that they are playing in an arbitrary meta. If this were one day to ever be unbanned it would change the meta for the better and it would be more exciting and popular.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  2. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Also, any other opposing poke that uses mean look would pretty much always trade with it. So if you wanted to trade for an easier, more sure fire way to get gengar out of the way that would be a good strat. Such as your own gengar, or umbreon, or missy etc.
     
  3. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    So wait, you're arguing for sleep perish trap to be unbanned? As opposed to just unbanning sleep trap? Because afaik one of those two bans has existed for the entirety of GSC's history, with Borat's actions being to push for SleepTrap over SleepPerishTrap rather than implementing the ban in the first place.

    In any case there are a few things- first is that it's more than just the ghosts that can use this, with Smeargle being notably obnoxious. Second is that you've presented only one counter to the strategy. There needs to be more evidence for your argument to be effective, such that you could convince people that they wouldn't have to gimp their teams in order to not auto-lose to this gimmicky strategy. But more importantly, the effectiveness of the strategy isn't even the primary argument for banning it. It's simply that people feel it's a bullshit strategy that lowers the quality of play, reducing the game to a haxfest (your argument actually vindicates this as Raikou must rely on RNG to beat the strategy despite otherwise being probably the best available counter). It's that it's uncompetitive more than broken, to use the buzzwords. Lastly if you're arguing for SleepPerishTrap over SleepTrap rather than simply removing the ban, there's also a factor of ban simplicity.

    I mean I'm no longer involved with GSC so it doesn't bother me too much, just thought I'd share my thoughts. Also fwiw I've known for a while that Borat bullshitted SleepTrap into popularity. It's just I don't care because I happen to agree with SleepTrap (in fact I'd go further and simply ban trapping altogether but oh well).
     
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  4. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Ortheore hit the nail on the head; Borat's cheating was to move from SleepPerishTrap to SleepTrap. I happen to agree with that move for different reasons; SleepTrap fits much better into PP's tiering principles than SleepPerishTrap.

    Also, 50-50 for killing your best counter in the entire meta is actually pretty damned broken for a Pokemon that comes in easily on a bunch of things (hi there Miltank, non-EQ Lax, Forretress, Blissey, and kinda Gengar and Hera). I don't know any legal Pokemon in any gen's OU that have that capability (RBY Tauros has no counters but can't come in on most staples; GSC Snorlax comes in easily enough but can be fairly-easily neutralised).
     
  5. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Read that transcript 3 times, still have no idea what he's banging on about? Is that a long winded way of saying the sleep perish trap was his doing? Lol ok then.

    Nothing in Pokemon, certainly not the gens i'm familiar with is unbeatable. Absolutely everything can be broken. 2 solid checks for sleep perish trappers: encore Alakazam, Houndoom with f.blast, crunch, pursuit, sleep talk. Hard to beat or not, nothing is a mindless strategy, there is always an offense and a defense mechanism. I have to say i'm in agreement with you on this one Rooster, quite suprised to hear someone as vocal of his hatred of slow GSC as borat would be the proponent behind the ban tbh. But oh well, dry humping roar suicunes for 200 turns to see who can run out off pp first is also fun ;)
     
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  6. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    And ice beam nightmare Jynx isn't even close to as effective as sleep perish trap Jynx, it has no where near the reliability and dexterity to trap, sleep, kill and protect like the perish trapper does. Why would you even ban the perish trapper if the nightmare ice beam set was just as good lol?
     
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  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    No, Borat said that he was the architect of the sleep-trap rather than sleep-perish-trap ban. Roostur is apparently bad at reading comprehension.

    Since you appear to be arguing the sleep-perish-trap thing; Encore doesn't work well due to Protect's priority. And the level of preparation you propose is greater than that for Snorlax.

    Also,
    No, he meant Sleep/Trap/Nightmare or Sleep/Trap/STAB i.e. sleep-trappers that are not sleep-perish-trappers. Nightmare Jynx is less effective than Perish Song Jynx but not by a huge amount.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
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  8. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Speed priority isn't the issue as it isn't actually doing anything other than counting down turns until it fails. The issue is encore has too little pp to fall back on repeatedly. Either way all the time you have encore pp you can't be perish trapped; the trapper will be forced to switch out or just sit there burning off protects, which no smart player is gonna do.

    And no, really that Jynx is eons off a perish trapper.
     
  9. sulcata

    sulcata Member

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    yeah there's a consensus that at the very least sleep perishtrap should be banned. borat's only arguing about sleeptrapping (which i think is broken as well). even if borat meant it the other way around, sleeptrap is just broken and dumb to allow in a meta. mean look -> hypnosis -> perish song is practically guaranteed on every poke.

    crunch raikou is bad. that you think your go-to "counter" only has a 50/50 shot of beating sleep trap missy is dumb.

    alakazam and houndoom don't fit well on most teams and usually end up contributing to a huge lax weakness. it's not like you're facing misdreavus in a bubble.

    celebi isn't "broken" either in the same sense. it just makes the game more annoying and tedious to play overall, as if gsc didnt already have this problem in certain spots.

    just going to say here that i think sleep trapping in general isn't great to have in the meta, but i won't argue about it unless other people feel the same.
     
  10. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    I wish we as the gen 2 community would unban it and play with it unbanned for a while and then have a discussion on whether or not it should be banned. I feel like so many of us have played this gen without it being legal and we don't really know whether it should be banned or not. James G, who has played in the meta where it wasn't banned, thinks it should be unbanned. It isn't like he is some random scrub who doesn't know what he is talking about. I think we should unban it and then vote whether or not we should ban it again. So we all have the credibility to decide.
     
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  11. sulcata

    sulcata Member

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    appeals to seniority are silly. i know plenty of old players who don't get the meta either due to stubbornness or inability, as well as plenty of old players who are leagues ahead of most other players. sleeptrap missy needs 1-2 ways of dealing with it, making teambuilding in gsc even more constrained than it already is by spikes control, snorlax, and electrics. objectively it makes the meta worse off.

    both of you have admitted that some/most of the checks you've mentioned are not guaranteed or even highly likely to beat missy in the long term. not to mention they all tend to not be used on teams for a reason, they suck against most of the meta.

    should be noted that i really don't think PP has the ability to actually change something that big about the gsc meta. putting aside that all of two people support it on PP, it'll just alienate players from smogon and other sites. not to mention that it would either require that players play on the PP server or play ubers/AG on the ps main servers. the best you could do is host a one off tour or something yourself to try and generate interest, or suggest it as a seasonal RoA ladder on ps main.
     
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  12. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    we already had a vote regarding this

    GSC - SleepTrap Vote and Discussion [Vote Closed] | Pokémon Perfect

    only James wanted the removal of all bans re: trapping. Likewise only a couple of people wanted to ban mean look etc. entirely. Most people want either sleeptrap or sleepperishtrap banned. We had a vote to determine which people preferred. We could revisit it at some point in the future but this happened so recently (about 6 months ago), I would probably give it another year or so before it really would make sense to have another vote.

    That being said you're perfectly allowed to argue your case till you're blue in the face, and feel free to hold unofficial tours with different rules in the Tournaments forum.
     
  13. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    I've said it before and I'll say it again: SleepPerishTrap should not have been offered as an option, as it directly contradicts PP tiering policy. Allowing phone-in votes from Smogonites who hate this place too much to even show up was also a clear mistake. It damages PP's independence.

    I think I've said this before, too: Sleep-trapping, broken or not, is only relevant because it abuses a loophole in Sleep Clause. It's the sleep that's broken, not the trap; trapping is merely a workaround for the rule that otherwise keeps sleep in check. Using something other than Sleep Clause would render this entire issue moot.
     
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  14. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    The whole reason I was for this was to make gen 2 better and more playable. It is one of the most unpopular/boring gens. This is due to its stall mechanics. Arguing for what is objectively more competitively fair is arbitrary if no one likes the game. I’ll give you an analogy. Smash Bros melee is objectively the best fighting in the world in terms of skill ceiling. It’s skill ceiling is far from the grasp of any human. No human ever has a chance of getting close to it. It would be “objectively” more competitive to change the number of stocks you play with from 4 stocks to 100. Because it would give the better player more time to adapt and there would never be any upsets. That would be “objectively” more competitive. Who would play melee if this was the case though? No one. Melee would be a bore fest like gen 2 is now. Objectively more competitively fair does not equal better. Gen 2 would be more popular and better if sleep trap was unbanned. It is banned based on a set of arbitrary rules. Unban if you want a better game. Don’t if you want a game very little people like. There you go.
     
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  15. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    I agree with Roostur 100%.
     
  16. Ariel Rebel

    Ariel Rebel #1 rsutton23 Fan Member

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    See: wobbling
     
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  17. sulcata

    sulcata Member

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    What's ideal for a fast-paced fighting game isn't necessarily ideal for a turn based double-blind game. People like GSC because you have time to feel your opponent out. This is pretty universally considered a positive trait in metagames. Sleep trap devolves the entire process of feeling each other out and predicting into winning just because you happened to get a coinflip prediction. It's miserable to play against and the best team that came out of sleep trapping is just even gayer stall, which makes it so you have to get every single coinflip right or else you lose.
     
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  18. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    You would still have enough time if sleep trap was unbanned. It wouldn't change that. You don't need that many turns to feel your opponent out. Gen 2, as it stands, is like a staring contest. Your goal is don't lose. Sure you can play an offensive team if you want, but if there is someone around playing stall and knows what he is doing, he is going to win a lot more than you because stall is better. And the goal with stall is to not lose. That is just wrong to me in a competitive game. The goal should be to win. And a team designed to do nothing but not lose should be frowned upon and the only reason a team like that is allowed to be is because of sleep trap being banned. And I should also add that gen 2 was far more popular when sleep trap was unbanned. You can argue sleep trap being unbanned wasn't the reason for that but it is still a fact it was more popular when it was unbanned. And I'm almost sure that it would gain popularity back if this was unbanned. I know I'd play gen 2 again.
     
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  19. sulcata

    sulcata Member

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    Almost unquestionably banning or unbanning sleep(perish)trapping is not the reason gen 2 lost popularity. Most old gens lose popularity with time, regardless of their bans, and GSC is no exception. Correlation is not equivalent to causation.

    Sleep trap is unbanned as far as I know. Sleep perish trapping is currently what's banned by Smogon and I believe PP as well. Talking about how strong stall becomes without sleep trapping is a non sequitur. The reason people want it banned is because it takes the game out of the player's hands significantly. Even if your argument made sense, it's still faulty because of how sleep trap actually developed in the GSC metagame. Sleep trap just facilitates another viable stall team and forces offensive teams to take even more risks just to stay afloat (exploding to prevent trapping, double switches, etc). Stall is good in GSC, no doubt, but if it was as good as you keep claiming it is then people wouldn't be using nearly as much offense.

    Honestly in the end I don't think it noticeably makes "stall better" or "offense worse", it just lowers the skill ceiling by throwing the game up to RNG sleep turns and coin flip "predictions" turn 1. A high skill ceiling with a learning curve which isn't too steep is ideal; players can actually feel like they've progressed and accomplished something without stagnating. Sleep trapping is incredibly frustrating for even some intermediate level players, let alone beginners because of how quickly you can end up losing a game. Being forced to watch a Snorlax curse up to +6 isn't anyone's idea of a fun game, nor is losing your Raikou or Snorlax for nothing just because you mispredicted (if you can even call it that) on turn 1. If anything sleep trapping chases off players and the issue of stall is entirely unrelated.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  20. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    just want to point out that sleeptrap is banned here, though I think there's some confusion and I'm not sure if it's really enforced or if ppl default to smogon rules.

    Either way, based on previous experiences dealing with the issue the playerbase is pretty evenly split on the topic of sleeptrap, but those that are in favour of a ban are often strongly so, while it's much more likely that anti-ban players are more indifferent on the issue.

    As for the issue at hand, I'm in total agreement with Sulcata here
     
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  21. FriendOfMrGolem120

    FriendOfMrGolem120 aka. "FOMG" Member

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    I was wondering about this before the wcopp and looked up the clauses:

    SPTB173872.png
    That is taken from Community - Tier List for WCoPP 1 | Pokémon Perfect

    Judging from that, we currently only have SleepPerishTrap Ban in GSC 1U-L and no SleepTrap Ban.
     
  22. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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  23. FriendOfMrGolem120

    FriendOfMrGolem120 aka. "FOMG" Member

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    Ah, I didn't look at them since the only time I was officially playing GSC 1U-L was during the wcopp. I prefer SleepTrap Ban, even though I am not heavily opposed to the SleepPerishTrap Ban.
    Regarding the original topic itself:
    I think just getting rid of the Sleep(Perish)Trap Ban is nothing that should be done unless the vast majority of players supports it, but adding side-metagames like GSC with no Snorlax, no Lax and no legendaries, no Sleep(Perish)Trap Ban or even anything goes is fine. They can exist besides the main tier and should more people be interested in playing one of these tiers, then it could eventually replace the main one, but that will probably not happen.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017
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  24. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Watch this match between me and (i think) bomber in tournament.
    [Gen 2] OU replay: diktat vs. Roostur - Pokémon Showdown the epitome of what a piece of trash gen this is. I literally do nothing but react. If I make a read it is a completely safe one with little to no consequences. This is the tournament that made me realize this gen needs a serious make over. Name me what I did this match that took so much skill that only a pro could pull it off. Go on. I'll wait. Nothing. This is a brain dead broken exploit that I used against all of my opponents to win the tournament. All it takes to use is time and endurance. That's it. VERY little skill involved.

    Now watch this in comparison. [Gen 2] OU replay: Roostur vs. Crystal_ rby - Pokémon Showdown it isn't the best match in the world, it is actually pretty sloppy, but you can actually see two people TRYING to accomplish something. We're both TRYING to win and kill each other's pokemon. This is how pokemon was intended to be played. Banning Sleep Perish Trap has opened up a disgusting exploit in the game. Stop fooling yourselves into thinking you're some geniuses playing some slow methodical chess match. You're just playing checkers with a million more checkers than usual. That's it.
     
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  25. sulcata

    sulcata Member

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    None of these replays have sleep trap, but sleep trap is completely legal on PS and has been forever. You have no point here.

    You and your opponent both brought shitty, do-nothing stalls. You had no means of breaking missy, but luckily you didn't need to. Don't blame the game for your inability to bring a half-decent team. The only thing you did that match was have a slightly less shitty team that happened to do well. Switching Snorlax into Snorlax to heal up was also a play, idk why you aren't taking credit for that either.

    Not sure what you're trying to show in the second game either. You brought a stupid meme team, played fairly linearly against your opponent who brought an actual team, and lost because of it. There is no "intended" way to play Pokemon. I think borat's description of stall is kind of shit; stall isn't a lack of a win condition. It's a lot more accurate to say that you're delaying their win condition to push forward your own.

    You more than anyone else seem to think of this as some higher endeavor, especially after you went around crying in those MT threads about how ch01 doesn't deserve to win and how you're some genius at this game. So I don't want to hear the autistic "muh chess" argument from you of all people.
     
  26. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Admittedly missy is probably good against this team (I think) but undoubtedly shit against every other team I’ve used in all of my time playing gsc. Almost a waste of a slot actually. But the thing is it is only good if it is on another what? ...on another stall team. Which is the whole point of this. To show that banning sleep perish trapping creates a space for stall teams to dominate. Which is bad.

    No. Borat’s definition is completely right. Lol. I love how desperately you’re trying to defend this. Borat’s description is shit, it isn’t trying to not lose, it is “delaying your opponent’s win condition” . Lolololololol hahahahahaha. Jesus. Give me a break. If you have to do gymnastics like that, rule of thumb is you’re on the wrong side of the argument.
     
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  27. sulcata

    sulcata Member

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    Stop swapping between "sleep trap" and "sleep perish trap". They're two different things. Apparently you still lack basic reading comprehension.

    You still haven't made a point. None of this shows that sleep perish trapping or sleep trapping actually prevent stall. Bringing up that you lose to a common stall archetype isn't me trying to say that stall is bad, just that you're bad and your games are bad examples (non-examples really).

    And if stall didn't have a win condition it wouldn't win. Stall is either good or it doesn't have a win condition, pick one, they're mutually exclusive. It has win conditions, you just don't like them. The real mental gymnastics here is trying to reconcile these two concepts as compatible.

    "wrong side of the argument", holy shit this saying hurts more every time I read it.
     
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  28. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Stall's win conditions:
    - Toxic/Spikes + Perish Song or some other tool (Explosion?) for the last remaining Pokemon
    - PerishTrap of some kind to remove each Pokemon
    - Some sweeper/wallbreaker like drumlax which the team tries to utilise
    maybe more...
     
  29. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    Rest Marowak is quite popular in Miltank stalls too
     
  30. Ariel Rebel

    Ariel Rebel #1 rsutton23 Fan Member

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    1) Timer - opponent has a poor connection
    2) Timer - opponent is a kid who gets yanked away to do chores
    3) Opponent has to poop

    I've witnessed all 3 on ladder.

    Sometimes out of the box thinking can get you the win.

    Roostur stop complaining. Come back and put up results. You had your 15 minutes of fame and left. Other people are being productive in this gen and are surviving the test of time. If your claims are true, they would be reflected year to year in SPL. But that's far from the case. And even on ladder, I am perfect against your laxless stall teams, using a stall team of my own. I don't think either of us had the matchup advantage. There was significant onus on both of us to outplay each other to end up in a winning position. I don't agree with your earlier appraisal at all. This gen isn't as cut and dry as you make it sound.
     
  31. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    lol... When you realize everyone attacking you has lost to your "meme team" lol. Like... I don't have anything to prove. I didn't have anything to prove BEFORE I had won a tournament. I only entered the tournament because people kept saying ladder didn't prove anything. I had already beaten the best players, like conflict for example, multiple times on the ladder. I had nothing to be scared of. I only entered to prove them wrong and Sulcata did the same thing afterward. We were both on top, or near the top, when we won our tournaments. I was just trying to prove that us people who mainly played ladder were some of the best at the gen. And you know damn well that if I won the next few tournaments with stall that NOTHING would change. Because people are stubborn. Especially people who play old gens. They can't stand change even if it is for the better. It would literally change nothing. I'm not coming back to this gen until it changes.

    And what would change with sleep perish trap is that the games would become more goal oriented. You would actively be trying to kill your opponent's pokemon. As it stands now you lay spikes down so you and your opponent can't just switch forever, and eventually something dies. ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz. With sleep perish trap something would die a lot quicker (GOOD) and we all know that once that one pokemon goes down the game is near an end. I played only a few games earlier this year with james g, both using "Stall teams" , with sleep perish trapping legal. Even though we were using stall teams we weren't trying to stall each other. We weren't playing that stupid game of, let's see who can get their spikes out first while we just switch and try not to die. We were actually trying to trick and out smart each other to get the sleep perish song in. You actually have to use your brain a bit more. You're actively trying to do something.

    This gen is going to be dead unless something happens. It is already less popular than it used to be last year and the year before. I want better for this gen. But I don't expect that to happen so, let it stay in the shadow of gen 1 and 3. RIP.
     
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  32. sulcata

    sulcata Member

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    I'll hand it to you that it's fun to snipe people on ladder, especially when they pretend to be someone else. Ladder and a minor tour on a small site still don't mean anything though (none of it does really).

    Vacuously true; anything follows from a falsehood.

    pick one tho. like is this a thinking mans game or are we playing rng kiddie games? you just switch as it suits you.

    I'd rather think more about my games. Forcing the player to possibly lose a mon based on a coinflip decision turn 1 is not a means to making the game more thought provoking. I don't like the terms "50/50" and "coinflip" since they're rarely accurate descriptions, but on turn 1 that's essentially what they are. Which leads me to my point, you still haven't addressed how this drastically ups the learning curve for new players, which is the most cited reason I've heard for new players dropping the metagame.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017

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