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RBY Reflect/Sing Chansey

Discussion in 'Analysis and Research' started by EvanRBY, May 29, 2017.

  1. EvanRBY

    EvanRBY Member

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    I've found Reflect/Sing/Seismic Toss/Soft Boil Chansey has been the most effective within the classic team of Zam, Starmie, Eggs, Chans, Lax, Tauros

    In this classic team, there are ample pokemon to spread para with Twave on Zam and Starmie, Stun Spore on Eggs, and bslam on Lax and Tauros. By having Sing/Reflect/Seismic, you gain a surprise sleeper which can completely change the course of the match, it also provides you a second sleeper if your Eggs goes down, and Reflect/Sing with Chansey is very forgiving if chansey misses (vs. sing Lapras), this also allows a very offensive chansey with reflect/seismic toss.

    What are your thoughts?
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I think it's horrible, alakazam / starmie sit on it all day and beat it comfortably and aren't even punished, tauros can sit in on it and fish for critical hits, snorlax+golem/rhydon comfortably handles it. Without Thunder Wave, you can't punish anything, once something has been slept. If there's an alakazam lead and you para it, then it blocks sleep from both egg and chansey all day, and beats up chansey. If you don't para it, then it wreaks havoc in its own way too. And lead psychic starmie, which in the hands of some players will avoid paralysis like the plague, and once it's scouted out your chansey set will be horrible to get rid of.

    It's not like your set can't work: there's situations where the sheer surprise of it could work fine but I think on average you're better off running a more dedicated either sing or reflect set rather than trying to hybridise the two and getting rid of one of chansey's biggest assets.
     
  3. EvanRBY

    EvanRBY Member

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    starmie and zam are usually para'd, in which case they lose the majority of matches against seismic toss chans
    eggs needs to explode or switch out
    lax's crit rate is too low, and reflect chans usually handles lax from my experience
    rhydon is a solid counter but isn't on many teams and will take a beating by the chansey before it finally crits; golem same situation or explodes
    zap needs to crit and will usually take a beating until it gets lucky or dies
    tauros usually gets a lucky crit and is the best counter, but will take a few hits usually before it gets that crit

    also psychic starmie would hopefully eventually get para'd or boom'ed on throughout the course of the match based on how many para spreaders are on the classic team

    my argument is that with the classic team that runs a stun spore Eggs, you have enough paralysis, therefore you can let your chans be a back up sleeper. You still think you need another paralysis spreader?
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
  4. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I'm saying starmie isn't usually para'd necessarily. Some players like to avoid having it be paralyzed all game. Furthermore, with seismic toss, you don't exactly 'beat' zam or starmie, it's a sort of a stalemate if anything. Lax is comfortable versus it if chansey is paralyzed and lax isn't.

    I 100% think you need chansey to carry thunder wave, it's the main way you paralyze a lot of pokemon (most importantly lax) and how you prevent it from being bait for pokemon like tauros. I'd rather tOne week to play as usual, gl hf allrade sing or reflect for twave and then drop stun spore on egg for a normal-type move or mega drain.
     
  5. EvanRBY

    EvanRBY Member

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    [Gen 1] OU replay: EvanRBY vs. Mister Tim - Pokémon Showdown

    example of how sing/reflect chansey basically turned the momentum of the match, and paralysis was still easily spread as needed. I forget what the Lax crit rate is, but I'm pretty comfortable letting an unpara'd lax switch in on my para Chans with reflect up. I agree though that having stun spore on Eggs is a little frustrating because I sacrifice double-edge/hper beam/egg bomb.
    However, once the opponent's Chansey is gone, sing/reflect chansey has felt pretty unstoppable other than slowbro set ups/amnesialax/wraps, or lucky tauros/zapdos crits (but I feel those would stop a regular chansey as well)
    I also feel like I could find a way to get a starmie para'd whether it be through body slams or statuses, or I would just PP stall the starmie
     
  6. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    js that sounds more like a product of Reflect Chansey being ridiculous than Sing specifically being particularly good, since the exact same thing is true of ordinary RaishSey. Inability to para Zam/Star is definitely an issue but team support can cover that, although it's unclear how well since there's a massive spectrum of play in terms of willingness to expose to status

    Shoutouts to me for running a gimmick Starmie that absolutely feasts on this set =P

    DA js I don't think dropping TWave is the end of the world. I certainly wouldn't drop it for Sing, but if it's Reflect or Counter or something I think Chansey still works. Counter is obvious, the whole point is to nab a quick surprise KO so your opponent doesn't get a chance to exploit your lack of TWave and you're still limiting Lax. Reflect is obviously even better against Lax. Reflect is limited against lategame Tauros, but midgame it's still not coming in as you should be managing information well enough to not send that signal, plus the threat of a Tauros ditto makes it very wary of taking early damage.
     
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  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    This Chansey is setup bait for all common setups (Dragonite, Slowbro, AmnesiaLax) and can be PP-stalled easily by opposing Recover users due to its lack of IB/Twave to threaten status or Tbolt to threaten Starmie. I don't think the Sing sleep is worth that.
     
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  8. TuffHunter

    TuffHunter Member

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    I love using Sing but I still keep thunderwave instead of reflect. Seems to fit my team better.

    (Zam lead, Chansey, Snorlax, Tauros and the last two vary)
     
  9. EvanRBY

    EvanRBY Member

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    yeah, I've gotten to play more highly ranked opponents, sing/reflect is too easily walled, recover on Zam or Starm can PP stall it effectively
     
  10. juoean

    juoean Member

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    i think if you wanted to go off this idea better would be sing / counter , its hard to set up you have to switch (unparalyzed) into eg a lax body slam, then use sing (doesnt rly matter if on lax or a switch-in) and then counter the next pokemon for a almost guaranteed k.o. given chanseys hp and low def and rby counter mechanics. so (if you can set it up) u sleep one poke and ko another. buttt even then chansey rlyy needs its moveslots that leaves you in a horrible position against (psychic) slowbro as said above and zam or mie with psychic too
     
  11. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Moderator

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    Once you use Sing, you clear the [Edited to add: BODY SLAM] damage on Counter. This strategy does not work.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
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  12. EB0LA

    EB0LA TOUR BANNED Member

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    Wrong. The mechanics work like this:
    Example:
    T1-
    Snorlax uses bslam.
    Chansey uses Sing. (Lax falls asleep).
    T2-
    Lax stays in (still asleep)
    Chansey does Stoss.
    T3-
    Lax stays in (still asleep)
    Chansey uses counter. Counter now works!

    Don't believe me? Try it. Works with jynx after it sleeps, attacks bliz, then counter is working again. I don't remember if it's the damage you do that doubles or the dmg that was inflicted in the prior turn to you.

    Counters weird.
     
  13. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Yeah, that will work, but you need the Seismic Toss in there because it's the Seismic Toss that you're countering (for 200 damage). If you attempted Counter on turn 2 you'd be attempting to Counter your own Sing, which would do 2*0 = 0 damage and "miss".

    200 damage isn't bad, but it's not the usual Counter damage (500+) which juoean was claiming you could get, and you're relying on them to stay in for it to work because if they switch out t2 they can use a move t3 and spoil Counter.

    I will note that with Ice Beam instead of Sing (and a freeze), you could immediately Counter (assuming their last-selected move is a damaging Normal or Fighting move). For instance, this would work:

    But, obviously, that isn't a Sing+Counter "combo".
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
  14. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Moderator

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    This is not the strategy the poster was referring to.
     
  15. juoean

    juoean Member

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    omg im sorry....... i thought all status moves didnt reset counter but sleep moves do... i thought i checked that before sorry...
     
  16. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    some status moves don't reset counter but I don't remember which ones... I only remember that recovery moves don't reset the damage address but that sleep moves do
     
  17. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    RBY Damage - Pastebin.com

    From Crystal_'s comments on Smogon HEAL_EFFECT definitely includes Recover/Softboiled, but I'm not sure about Rest. Notable omissions (i.e. moves that zero the damage address) are stat-up/stat-down moves and sleep moves. Less notable omissions are Bide and Metronome. Also, misses (including misses from moves that are on that list) always zero the damage address.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
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