1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome to Pokemon Perfect, Guest!

    Our motto is Pokémon Practice makes Pokémon Perfect. We are a competitive-battling community that encourages the development of players and their ideas, and fosters positive and respectful attitudes. We love Collaboration (working together), Competition (getting stronger), and Communication (being informed).

    You are free to post everywhere, unless the thread explicitly states otherwise (usually in the case of a vote), and there are no private forums whatsoever. We just require you to not make multiple accounts. Let us greet you by posting a thread in the Introduce Yourself! forum.

  3. Tiers

    View Introduction to Tiers if you don't know what tiers are. Pokémon Perfect tiers are named differently to those on Smogon. A numeral followed by the letter U, e.g. 1U, 2U, 3U, represents a main tier on Pokémon Perfect – the '1' of '1U' representing the tier level. For a tier to be a main tier, it must be balanced (nothing is too powerful and game-breaking) and diverse enough (include a variety of Pokémon and strategies). A numeral followed by the letter P, e.g. 1P, 2P, 3P contain all Pokémon that are deemed overpowered in the respective 1U, 2U, 3U tiers. The 1st tier level allows Pokémon that are banned in the 2nd level, and this process continues down. Read the tier list, and in-depth explanations of the tiers naming system and tiering system. Also check out our analyses for all tiers.

  4. Tournaments

    RBY 1U Seasons and its master tournaments are responsible for starting up the community, and tournaments continue to play a big role in maintaining interest in the forums. Signups Open gives you a list of tournaments you can join, and Ongoing lists tournaments that you might want to follow. Additionally, you can tap to find out approximate Schedules for tournaments.

    For historical threads, check out Signups Closed, Finished tournaments and Results. We also have Nominations, Voting and Event threads for exhibitions – past and present.


Discussion in 'Analysis and Research' started by marcoasd, Mar 13, 2018.

  1. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

    Jul 17, 2013
    Likes Received:
    Leads are the most submerged and important part of RBY OU right now: they matter more than 6th slot matchups and Chansey’s or Snorlax’s movesets.
    Leads doomed Slowbro. Leads decide games if you don’t pay attention or if you’re unlucky.

    Alakazam and Starmie are so dominant right now, that Jynx barely makes some appearances here and there; this even opened up to Exeggutor making a comeback as a lead!
    During the early stages of SPL, everyone was anti-leading: Alakzam and Starmie are by far the best leads if you ask anyone other than Bedschibaer and very few others, and Alakazam has the edge over Starmie in the first turns – I have seen so many games being decided by Alakazam lucking Starmie: Starmie is at risk against Alakazam, BeamBolt Chansey can't beat it and Stun Spore Exeggutor doesn't want to fight with it.
    If you consider that bringing Tauros out early is risky, Snorlax is the only nice switch; if it happens to be PhysLax, it can be statused permanently and it will be easy for RestLax variants or even unpara’d Reflect Chansey to deal with it.

    So, my immediate reaction was to greedly increase Alakzam’s usage – this prevented bad things to happen on my Starmie lead, of course: I’m not using it!
    On the other hand, Starmie is a more solid pokemon in many circumstances, so it would’ve been cool to figure out a way to cover up Starmie’s weakness to Alakazam during the first few turns in order to have a lead which can help against Snorlax and DE/HB Exeggutor.
    I’ve always seen SToss (Reflect) Chansey as a great way to pull a KO on Alakazam, or at least to facilitate Snorlax to come in and when I put these two ideas together, I knew I had something big in my hands.
    There are always many ways things could go wrong, but I feel like this is still way better than leaving Starmie out there, getting butchered as it FPs.

    You realize how important this is when I state that I’ve been complaining about RBY OU and it was because I didn’t understand how to maximize the odds of avoiding the kind of bad luck that basically decides games in the first 10 turns. I think nobody else did though, and we’ve all been living with the kind of risk I just described as Starmie users.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    So, to make a long story short, I think that Starmie lead should be paired with Seismic Toss (so, likely Reflect) Chansey: this might help you early in the game a bit, and it turns to be even better late in the game, when you can create better setups for Chansey to come in and use Reflect.
    Early in the game, it’s not easy to tell whether Chansey will be able to spend time using Reflect against Alakazam (so Snorlax will come in): Chansey should beat Alakazam, but “devil’s tool Zam” can turn the tide with FPs, CHs, and special drops.
    Starmie can use Thunder Wave and switch out, and in case Alakazam TWaves Chansey as well, it will be very hard for your opponent to use Sleep Powder; on the other hand, you need to deal with Snorlax (Reflect Chansey can’t stay out forever because Snorlax does, sometimes, crit.
    Reflect Chansey will be only better a bit later in the game, when you can create better setups for Chansey to come in and use Reflect.

    So, this new approach to lead games should let your lead last longer, and give you fair 6vs6 fair RBY long games most of the time, where you get to see predictions and player making decisions.
    Basically I answered my complaints on RBY OU; if you hate Reflect Chansey stallwars, this won’t help much though – sorry. Speaking personally, I don’t love games getting to turn 150 but I can take that as long as I get to play good RBY games, at least. Just turn animations off and go through it…
    Unfortunately, this thing alone won’t ultimately save you from bad luck, but it will save you from some.
    [​IMG] vs [​IMG]
    Alakazam’s role as a lead is pretty much defined and so is its moveset - Counter can deal 200 damage in the ditto or around 340 to Snorlax, but I don’t see it as a common option; on the other hand, the situation is different for Starmie.

    Psychic Starmie provides better help against Snorlax in general, and special drops matter against both Alakazam and Reflect Chansey – even leaving Gengar out of the equation, I think that Psychic is still the standard move and some teams really appreciate its ability to provide help against RestLax.

    Thunderbolt Starmie is the move to go if you want to beat other Starmies: also, it might give you the chance to land the first sleep and it will help against Jynx too.
    Unfortunately, Starmie loses the aforementioned good traits – all in all Thunderbolt looks pretty specific when compared to Psychic, and being able to damage the likes of Lapras and Slowbro feels marginal right now (you want to TWave Lapras and you’re pretty happy after that, and Slowbro is rare).

    I feel like this is the afterwards of SPL, outside of the lead spot:


    REFLECTRESTLAX is now very common: the Ice Beam variant feels like the roof of the Snorlax wars, unless you feel like committing to Amnesialax.
    It’s part of the reason why Zapdos is hard to deal with: PhysLax – once the omnipresent variant - used to be a yellow light (at least) for the bird, and not a pokemon that lets it in.

    RESTBOOMLAX as long as Gengar is rare and Counter Chansey doesn’t scare you, this moveset will perform well: it doesn’t make you weak to Zapdos and Amnesialax, while providing Reflect Lax things.
    Even if you face Ice Beam Snorlax, you can TWave it, boom and revenge kill it.

    TANKLAX: it got very rare: it loses to IceLax (and Amnesialax too), but it can still be dangerous. Pick a sleep fodder and park the truck right in the middle of the battlefield.
    I think it deserves more than the current close-to-0 usage.

    PHYSLAX as long as it’s unstatused, it can guarantee some good punishment with paralysis support – Reflect Snorlax can’t switch in safely when it’s para’d.
    Physlax happens to be extremely good at dealing with Zapdos and Amnesialax, and Hyper Beam + Selfdestruct can 2 for 1.

    AMNESIALAX needs two things to work: 1) have a sleep fodder 2) paralyse your opponent’s Snorlax
    optional: paralyse your opponent’s Chansey, which will make things even better.
    Amnesialax has fun against BeamBolt and Reflect Snorlax; sometimes Tauros is just the best option to deal with it, but it needs to predict Rest.
    It suffers from physical punishment, and paralysis hurt it.

    It looks like we’re stuck in the ReflectLax trend – rightfully in part: PhysLax will always be good and it scares Amnesialax away and ReflectLax teams still have ways to play around it. Still, many players use Reflect Snorlax a lot and maybe it’s time to use Amnesialax a bit more.


    like it or not, Rhydon is dominant right now because of Reflect Chaney and EQ’s damage on Tauros. It needs the help of paralysis against Snorlax: it loses strict one on ones vs ReflectRestLax, but it can turn things around with some setup – if it forces Reflect + Rest, it has some shots to score a CH (CH EQ + EQ + EQ will KO bar extreme luck, something that Golem won’t do – it needs three max rolls on that sequence).


    Golem’s fallen out of grace, and I think this is going to last. Main reason to use it is to be able to blow up on Amnesialax when you’re in trouble, while bringing to the game a team that can deal with Zapdos.
    If Amnesialax’s usage stays in check, I don’t see Golem being back.


    Persian is underrated right now: I’m not going to state that it’s super-great, but it’s a decent pick when you don’t know what to choose.
    Being faster than Tauros is the key factor more than anything else.


    FIRE BLAST TAUROS: Fire Blast’s accuracy will take its toll at times, but as long as you feel like you won’t need Earthquake against your opponent, it will be a nice option to have – especially for Rhydon teams.

    Many times Exeggutor’s 4th move doesn’t even get to be revealed: Stun Spore is traditionally the brainless standard move and very recommendable if not mandatory for many teams – as good as paralysis is, Double Edge can do good things against Alakzam lead. It’s almost specific but it can provide a big swing and maybe I should’ve used it more, considering my grudge against Alakazam lead.
    Hyper Beam serves similar purposes: it can finish Starmie and Chansey significantly better, but it’s more risky; Mega Drain is specific for Starmie, and it’s pretty much the equivalent of Double Edge vs Alakazam – it does possibly better as it also takes advantage of Psychic special drops.


    The plant has a good speed compared to S4, leads get para’d more often than not and Zapdos is the only common 6th slot that scares it, leaving Tauros and its own misses as worst enemies.
    Victreebel is unreliable, but nonetheless viable – it saw some usage, and I think it will keep on making an appearance here and there.


    Slowbro needs two major requirements: 1) have something slept on your team: unlike RestLax, Slowbro doesn’t have STAB Body Slam 2) try to get Explosion users out of the way.
    Its usage plummeted because it can’t work even leaving the Zapdos and Critical Hits subject out of discussion.
    While the first requirement got harder and harder, many players will just provide requirement #2 for you by using Reflect Snorlax variants – I remember the discomfort of using ReflectLax when Slowbro was common, so I think it’s time to make an effort to bring Slowbro back, trying to make sense.

    If you need to offer something as a sleep fodder, you should try to trade sleep early so you can go 5 on 5.
    I feel like Jynx doesn’t have the tools that Alakazam and Starmie have, and this is true for Jolteon as well – Jolteon has some nice traits though.
    I feel like (Ice)Sing Chansey could be involved in Slowbro teams and get some success.

    Movesets that drop Thunder Wave for Reflect or Withdraw will either do nasty things or will just randomly lose – even simply to unpara’d Starmie or Chansey.
    Personally, I’m willing to push myself a bit more than that to win games if the upside is to get chances at winning every game I play.

    Against Slowbro: if you really want to be covered against Slowbro, you’d better stick with a Selfdestruct variant of Snorlax and an anti-lead.
    I don’t even need to remind that Starmie/Zapdos are the best fillers; Lapras’ most dedicated moveset is CRay+Sing, and TBolt Chansey is only marginal help which can come in handy: it can fish for a CH Thunderbolt before withrawing to leave Exeggutor the task of forcing Slowbro out (Sleep Powder).
    Stun Spore is obviously the best Exeggutor variant to keep Slowbro under control.

    NON STANDARD: if anything, S4 teams are usually slow. They sweep with Tauros and maybe Zapdos, and sometimes I wonder whether Zapdos’ success is due to Zapdos being great (and yeah, it is) or more generally, it does well because it’s fast and it can sweep.
    I think there’s got to be some way to get a positive deal out of changing something, at times.
    Of course there are risks and the process takes time and testing, but I’m not sold on standard teams being the only way anymore.
    I’m just not a big fan of slow cores and multiple weaknesses – just like GolDon+Slowbro.
    I feel like having multiple ways to sweep and speed in general to be key. Good luck finding combinations that aren’t exposed to glaring weaknesses. I think that Exeggutor is the most dispensable member of S4, simply because it’s not a normal-type.

    I’ve been writing a lot lately, and I can finally say that I got everything out!
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
    Erzengel, autumn leaves, Isa and 6 others like this.

Share This Page