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RBY RBY OMs

Discussion in 'Analysis and Research' started by Disaster Area, Jul 29, 2015.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    This thread is to discuss and suggest OMs (Other Metagames) in RBY.

    Possible tiers include: RBY Balanced Hackmons (discuss what ruleset would balance it?), RBY STABmons (every mon has access to all moves that are their type, e.g. Recover Tauros/Snorlax, Amnesia Hypnosis Alakazam/Starmie, Rock Slide Drill Peck Aero, etc, could be fun..), RBY Tier Shift (once we have our regular tiers sorted out..). Does anyone have anything to add? Any new and interesting tiers?
     
  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    Just gonna note tho I probably won't rly be interested in exlporing any of these for several months, until at least the regular linear RBY tiers and the related OU/Ubers tiers from stadium and tradebacks are sorted out.
     
  3. Lilyhollow

    Lilyhollow Member

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    For those interested, a version of RBY Tiershift is now playable on my server. Yes, tiers aren't anywhere close to finished in RBY, but on the other hand I don't care ^____^

    How it works is: everything that isn't OU gets +10 to each base stat. I think the standard for Tiershift is +5, but I feel like that would have barely any impact in gen 1. If and when an RU tier happens, they'll get +20, and so on.
     
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  4. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Banning Mewtwo seems in order since it's got so much more BST than anything else.

    Otherwise, I think it's actually pretty decent out of the box. Crabhammer and Amnesia are both great, of course, but the fact that they're independent of each other (Crabhammer always crits, so stat boosts on either side are irrelevant) helps to diversify things. Mew's good, but not completely broken; its bulk isn't as daunting with Crabhammers and boosting moves everywhere (in particular, Starmie outspeeds and 2HKOs), and its movepool advantage is obviously moot.

    Obviously you need Sleep Clause or something like it since it's RBY, but I don't know the standards for BH in that respect so I don't know if that's already assumed.

    Too many key moves are Normal, I think. Psychic has Amnesia/Hypnosis/Agility, and Water has Crabhammer, but Normal gets LK, Growth, Swords Dance, Recover, Explosion and Wrap.
     
  5. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    For RBY Hackmons, I wonder if sleeping moves, or atleast sleeping moves better than Hypnosis/Sing should be banned for Pokemon that don't already have it. Otherwise I'd be surprised if the lead meta wouldn't just be Spore on SD Aerodactyl, Amnesia Jolteon or Amnesia Electrode with Edgequake/Boltbeam coverage. Transform would probably need to be banned because of Chansey.

    I'd tried RBY STABmons before, something definitely would have to be done about the Normals. In addition to everything m9m brought up, Normals also get Glare giving them dual status, Super Fang, and Transform which makes Chansey and Snorlax pretty much OP. Maybe a 2U STABmons might work better where the Normals and Psychics aren't as overpowered and many of the other Pokemon can benefit from the improved movepools (Crabhammer+Drill Peck Gyarados, Rock Slide+Drill Peck Aerodactyl, Rock Slide + Crabhammer Kabutops, Spore Victreebel/Venusaur, Twineedle+Razor Leaf Parasect, etc.).
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2015
  6. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    No clauses are assumed as standard for BH (it wasn't until gen 6 that they had any bans other than huge/pure power and wonder guard iirc) - even species clause. And I think with just sleep clause and maaaaybe mewtwo/chansey bans? it would be fine. I mean imo we should just start with sleep clause, MAYBE limit sleep moves to Pokémon which get it in their legal moveset.

    Also another weird OM I had the idea for was one in which Pokémon can only use moves which are both in their regular movepool and of the same type as them (status moves included). Mewtwo would probably be banned, not sure about Mew (doesn't get amnesia...). Call it STMB [Same Type Metagame Bonus]. Mewtwo would be banned.

    Venusaur - Toxic, Leech Seed, Sleep Powder, Razor Leaf, Solar Beam, Mega Drain [Also Poison Powder, Vine Whip]
    Charizard - Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Fire Spin, Ember [Rip Fly]
    Blastoise - Withdraw, Hydro Pump, Surf, Bubble Beam [Also Water Gun and Bubble]
    Butterfree - String Shot
    Beedrill - Pin Missile, String Shot, Twineedle, Poison Sting, Toxic
    Pidgeot - Wing Attack, Sky Attack, Mirror Move, Bide, Double Edge, Hyper Beam, Mimic, Quick Attack, Sand Attack, Substitute, Swift, Take Down [Also Gust, Rage, Razor Wind, Whirlwind]
    Raticate - Bide, Body Slam, Double Edge, Hyper Beam, Hyper Fang, Mimic, Quick Attack, Skull Bash, Substitute, Super Fang, Swift, Tail Whip [Also Focus Energy, Rage, Tackle, Take Down]
    Fearow - Drill Peck, Sky Attack, Mirror Move, Bide, Double Edge, Growl, Hyper Beam, Leer, Mimic, Quick Attack, Substitute, Swift, Take Down [Also Fury Attack, Peck, Pay Day, Rage, Razor Wind, Whirlwind]
    Arbok - Acid, Toxic, Poison Sting
    Raichu - Thunder, Thundershock, Thunderbolt, Thunder Wave
    Sandslash - Earthquake
    Nidoqueen - Earthquake, Poison Sting, Toxic
    Nidoking - Earthquake, Poison Sting, Toxic
    Clefable - Bide, Body Slam, Defense Curl, Double Edge, Flash, Hyper Beam, Hyper Fang, Mega Kick, Mega Punch, Mimic, Sing, Skull Bash, Substitute, Tri Attack [Also Double Slap, Pound, Rage, Tackle, Take Down]
    Ninetales - Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Fire Spin, Ember
    Wigglytuff - Bide, Body Slam, Defense Curl, Double Edge, Flash, Hyper Beam, Hyper Fang, Mega Kick, Mega Punch, Mimic, Sing, Skull Bash, Substitute, Tri Attack [Also Pound, Rage, Tackle, Take Down]
    Golbat - Toxic, Wing Attack
    Vileplume - Acid, Toxic, Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Mega Drain, Petal Dance, Solar Beam [Also Absorb, Poison Powder]
    Parasect - Leech Life, Spore, Mega Drain, Solar Beam, Stun Spore
    Venomoth - Leech Life, Toxic, Poison Powder
    Dugtrio - Earthquake
    Persian - Bide, Body Slam, Double Edge, Growl, Hyper Beam, Mimic, Screech, Skull Bash, Slash, Substitute, Swift [Also Bite, Fury Swipes, Pay Day, Rage, Scratch,Take Down]
    Golduck - Surf, Hydro Pump, Bubble Beam, Water Gun
    Primeape - Submission, Counter, Low Kick, Seismic Toss
    Arcanine - Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Ember
    Poliwrath - Counter, Submission, Seismic Toss, Hydro Pump, Surf [Also Bubble Beam, Water Gun, Bubble]
    Alakazam - Psychic, Psybeam, Psywave, Reflect, Rest, Kinesis [Also Confusion, Teleport]
    Machamp - Low Kick, Submission, Seismic Toss, Counter
    Victreebel - Acid, Toxic, Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Razor Leaf [Also Mega Drain, Solar Beam, Vine Whip, Poison Powder]
    Tentacruel - Acid, Toxic, Surf, Hydro Pump [Also Poison Sting, Bubble Beam, Water Gun]
    Golem - Earthquake, Rock Slide, Rock Throw
    Rapidash - Fire Blast, Fire Spin, Ember
    Slowbro - Withdraw, Amnesia, Rest, Psychic, Surf [Also Reflect, Water Gun, Bubble Beam, Confusion, Psywave, Teleport]. m9mbro/2 attack slowbro look like solid potential picks.
    Magneton - Thunder, Thundershock, Thunderbolt, Thunder Wave
    Farfetch'd - Peck, Bide, Body Slam, Double Edge, Leer, Mimic, Sand Attack, Skull Bash, Slash, Substitute, Swift, Swords Dance [Also Cut, Fury Attack, Rage, Razor Wind, Take Down, Whirlwind]
    Dodrio - Drill Peck, Sky Attack, Bide, Body Slam, Double Edge, Growl, Hyper Beam, Mimic, Skull Bash, Substitute [Also Fury Attack, Peck, Rage, Take Down, Tri Attack, Whirlwind]
    Dewgong - Blizzard, Ice Beam, Aurora Beam, Surf [Also Bubble Beam, Water Gun]
    Muk - Acid Armor, Sludge, Toxic, Poison Gas
    Cloyster - Blizzard, Clamp, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Surf, Withdraw [Also Aurora Beam, Bubble Beam, Water Gun]
    Gengar - Confuse Ray, Lick, Night Shade, Toxic (Fwiw I've used 3/4 of those moves in competitive play before..)
    Onix - Rock Slide, Rock Throw, Earthquake
    Hypno - Hypnosis, Psychic, Reflect, Rest [Also Confusion, Dream Eater, Meditate, Psywave, Teleport] (Fastest Sleeper!)
    Kingler - Crabhammer, Surf, Bubble Beam, Water Gun [Also Bubble]
    Electrode - Thunder, Thunder Wave, Thunderbolt
    Exeggutor - Leech Seed, Psychic, Rest, Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Mega Drain [Also Hypnosis, Solar Beam, Reflect, Psywave, Teleport] (One of the strongest mons in the meta)
    Marowak - Earthquake, Bone Club, Bonemerang
    Hitmonlee - Counter, High Jump Kick, Rolling Kick, Seismic Toss [Also Double Kick, Jump Kick, Submission]
    Hitmonchan - Counter, Seismic Toss, Submission
    Lickitung - Bide, Body Slam, Defense Curl, Disable, Double Edge, Hyper Beam, Mega Kick, Mega Punch, Mimic, Screech, Skull Bash, Stomp, Substitute, Supersonic, Swords Dance, Wrap [Also Cut, Rage, Slam, Strength, Take Down]
    Weezing - Sludge, Smog, Toxic
    Rhydon - Earthquake, Rock Slide (imo could be decent)
    Chansey - Body Slam, Defense Curl, Double Edge, Egg Bomb, Flash, Growl, Hyper Beam, Mega Kick, Mega Punch, Metronome, Mimic, Sing, Soft-Boiled, Skull Bash, Strength, Substitute, Tail Whip [Also Double Slap, Rage, Take Down, Tri Attack]
    Tangela - Mega Drain, Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Solar Beam [Also Absorb, Vine Whip]
    Kangaskhan...

    ... WIP atm
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2015
  7. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    STMB certainly looks interesting. Normal types suffer a lot without their coverage, and the Rocks become far more valuable as a consequence. Mew and Alakazam have no instant recovery and no good way to deal with other Psychics. If it weren't for Amnesia even Mewtwo would struggle trouble here. Pretty much all the Special Walls suffer from losing key moves, making things much easier for Fires and the Legendary Birds. Parasect and Beedrill to some extent actually become viable as partners to anything that wants Grass-types dealt with. Rhydon, Zapdos, Exeggutor and Slowbro are just about as good as they were before, and would likely be the main threats to worry about.
    Alakazam: Psychic/Kinesis/Reflect/Rest - Losing Recover really hits Alakazam's viability hard. Kinesis is the only reason to use it now if Mew is allowed.
    Articuno: Blizzard/Ice Beam/Sky Attack/Fly - Special walls are much less of an issue now, so Articuno should have a much easier time spamming ice attacks.
    Beedrill: Twineedle/Pin Missile/Poison Sting/Toxic - Exeggutor revenge killer and counters other Grass-types.
    Chansey: Sing/Body Slam/Defense Curl/Soft Boiled - Loses all of its offensive capability, pretty much resigned to walling things, ineffectively trying to spread status, and stalling.
    Clefable: Body Slam/Hyper Beam/Sing/Mimic - Sing keeps it viable, but the lack of coverage really hurts.
    Cloyster: Surf/Hydro Pump/Blizzard/Clamp - No more Explosion, but keeps Clamp atleast.
    Dodrio: Body Slam/Drill Peck/Hyper Beam/Mimic - Pretty much same as always for Dodrio.
    Exeggutor: Sleep Powder/Stun Spore/Mega Drain/Psychic - Loses Explosion and Double-Edge, but is still great. Rest+Leech Seed sets aren't affected much.
    Gengar: Night Shade/Confuse Ray/Lick - Completely walls Normal and Fighting-types.
    Golem: Earthquake/Rock Slide/Dig/Rock Throw - Inferior to Rhydon, but Ground/Rock looks to be very good and might be worth using alongside Rhydon.
    Mew: Psychic/Psywave/Reflect/Rest - Very bulky, but is going to have a hard time breaking other Psychics and has to rely on Psywave for coverage.
    Moltres: Fire Blast/Fire Spin/Sky Attack/Fly - With Starmie, Alakazam and Chansey all neutered, Moltres has a much easier time here.
    Muk: Sludge/Toxic/Acid Armor/Poison Gas - Has the potential to be a really tanky attacker.
    Parasect: Spore/Stun Spore/Mega Drain/Leech Life - Grass-type (4x resist!) and Water-type hard counter with dual status.
    Persian: Slash/Hyper Beam/Screech/Mimic - Does a lot of damage, but can't do much to Ghosts or Rocks.
    Raticate: Body Slam/Hyper Beam/Super Fang/Quick Attack - The only Normal type that can do notable damage to Rock-types and Gengar without Mimic.
    Rapidash: Fire Blast/Fire Spin/Ember - Can abuse its speed to burn things then spam Fire Spin to wear them down. The fact that it also doesn't have to worry about Starmie as much helps.
    Rhydon: Earthquake/Rock Slide/Dig - Edgequake keeps it from being walled by anything, and with Normals losing their coverage would likely become a LOT better.
    Slowbro: Surf/Psychic/Amnesia/Rest - Loses out on Thunder Wave, but keeps everything it needs to make its Amnesia set work. Also can run Withdraw too.
    Snorlax: Body Slam/Hyper Beam/Self-Destruct/Mimic - Very tanky and is the only exploder remaining.
    Starmie: Surf/Psychic/Reflect/Rest - Not as great as it used to be, but its still got a good typing, screens and dual STAB to keep it useful.
    Tauros: Body Slam/Double-Edge/Hyper Beam/Mimic - Pretty much same as always for Dodrio.
    Venusaur: Sleep Powder/Razor Leaf/Leech Seed/Toxic - Finally not outclassed by Victreebel. Razor Leaf will be invaluable for keeping Slowbro and Goldon in check.
    Victreebel: Sleep Powder/Stun Spore/Razor Leaf/Acid - Dual status and something to threaten Grass-types with.
    Zapdos: Thunderbolt/Drill Peck/Thunder Wave/Thunder - Loses out on screens and Rest, but still as threatening as ever.

    Another OM that could be interesting is Move Equality adjusted for RBY, where attacks are all given the same BP as other similar attacks based on whatever is balanced for that attack group.

    For example:
    Basic Attacks: 95 BP (everything not listed below)
    Charge/Recharge Attacks: 150 (Hyper Beam, Sky Attack, Solar Beam, Skull Bash, Razor Wind, Fly, Dig)
    Critical Hit Attacks: 70 BP (Slash, Karate Chop, Crabhammer, Razor Leaf)
    Partial Trapping Attacks: 15 BP (Wrap, Bind, Fire Spin, Clamp)
    Locking Attacks: 120 BP (Thrash, Petal Dance, Rage)
    Priority Attacks: 40 BP (Quick Attack)
    Fixed Damage Attacks: 100 Damage (Seismic Toss, Night Shade, Psywave, Sonic Boom, Dragon Rage)
    2 Hit Attacks: 50 BP (Twineedle, Double Kick, Bonemerang)
    2-5 Hit Attacks: 25 BP (Pin Missile, Fury Attack, Fury Swipes, Barrage, Spike Cannon, Comet Punch, Double Slap)
    Self-Destruct: 130 BP
    Explosion: 170 BP
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2015
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  8. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Hi Jump Kick makes Chansey quite beatable. Twineedle isn't nearly as effective against Mewtwo.

    (Transform Chansey is a thing, yes, but later gens' BH seem to cope with Imposter Chansey/Blissey just fine. I'd have to see it in action to make a call.)

    In RBY, Thrash is 90 BP and Petal Dance 70. So whence 120?

    Strongest multi-hit attack in RBY is Spike Cannon at 20 BP.
     
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  9. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    The idea was to aim for viable yet not OP. I figured while in game values worked well for pretty much most move groups, moves that lock you into it were far to weak to be usable, so instead based it on Outrage from later generations. 2-5 Hit Attacks having 25 BP would be to make sure a 5-hit would deal enough damage compared to the 95 BP moves to be worthwhile sometimes, but if it had to be in game values then leaving it at 15 BP would probably be fine since you need more than 20 BP for a multi-hit move to be viable unless its Pin Missile on Jolteon.
     
  10. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    Just play Violet version, it's basically this but better.
    Dig/Fly's still not usable. I think Chansey would run Mimic>Body Slam. Its body slam power is literally pathetic, and it can make use of the moves of virtually any target. We could discuss that more maybe.

    I think Exeggutor's Leech Stun Psy Rest set is one of the best mons, but its weakness to cuno/moltres is problematic for it. Maybe Starmie as a partner for it though would work wonders.

    You managed to completely miss Hypno, the fastest sleeper.
     
  11. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Violet Version isn't exactly Move Equality, but I guess there's enough similarity between them to make Move Equality redundant.

    Dig/Fly depends on the simulator. For some Pokemon such as Rhydon, Dig is literally one of the only 3 moves it can use, so it might as well have it for that extra PP. For Articuno and Moltres, the only other option they have is Peck.

    Body Slam on Chansey is purely for the paralysis chance. But yeah, it'd probably just run mimic.

    I didn't cover everything, just whatever I happened to see as I was making the post. Hypno isn't the fastest sleeper though, Venusaur is.
     
  12. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Catto of Furr and Power Member

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    oh true. Nevertheless Hypno has an arguably better typing. Mmm.. could be a neat meta.
     
  13. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    I think a Desync meta might be an interesting idea, although I very much doubt the simulators could do it.

    (i.e. simulate a Psywave desync at the start of the game, so the PRNG is a step out - one set of random numbers lags a step behind the other. You then have to play to win in both games, with only one set of commands for the diverging scenarios.)
     
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  14. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    You missed a big one, which is kinda ironic since you love using it: Porygon. It's the only thing to keep Recover, and Sharpen is Normal-type.
     
  15. Sevi 7

    Sevi 7 Member

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    Camomons (Metagame - Camomons | Smogon Forums ) was played on RoA today. I didn't get a chance to play it myself, but I think RBY is the most interesting generation to play it with. From what I saw, people stuck with the usual OU mons with a couple of difference, but really there's some potential beyond that. A couple of things I can think of off the top of my head:

    Kingler with Swords Dance, Normal-type STAB and 130 Attack can OHKO most mons and can 2HKO anything without Reflect at +2.

    Dragonite likes getting Normal-type STAB for Wrap and Hyper Beam. Blizzard might be good too, because STAB Blizzard can OHKO Ground/Rock Rhydon, but

    Tentacruel has some interesting options. Obviously you can boost it's physical offense with Normal-STAB
    Swords Dance and Wrap, but it also has Barrier which might actually have some use with a better typing.

    Machamp can get STAB Karate Chop, making it a slower and bulkier version of Persian. It can also trade it's Fighting-type for Rock or Psychic-types, to make it bulkier.

    Pinsir, just like Kingler, can benefit from a massive Attack stat, Swords Dance and Normal-type STAB, but it can also get STAB Submission and 2HKO Nomral-type Snorlax.

    Lapras can trade it's weakness to Electric-type attacks for a Ghost-typing.
     
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  16. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Anything can pick up Psychic type via Rest, although obviously only the bulkiest things want to run that.

    Dugtrio, Kabutops and Charizard get STAB Slash.

    Everything that gets Explosion can get STAB on it now.

    Lapras really picks out of Ice, Electric, Psychic and Ghost.

    Arbok can run Wrap/Earthquake/Glare/Hyper Beam and officially be the most annoying thing ever, although STAB Blizzards everywhere hurt.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  17. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Arbok I think would do better with Wrap/Rock Slide/Glare/Earthquake. STAB Rock Slide punishes STAB Blizzard users, and Normal resistance/Ice neutrality is better than Normal neutrality/Ice weakness when Slash/Explosion/Blizzard are commonly STAB.

    Ice/Ghost Lapras is the perfect wall to ruin Pinsir's and Kingler's day, so I think one would have to look elsewhere for swords-dance abusers. STAB Blizzard & STAB Explosion/Slash in general get stopped cold by Ice/Ghost Lapras.

    Ghost/Psychic Gengar is less of a hard wall for Kingler, but ditching the anti-Victreebel Poison typing for STAB Psychic is really really good.

    Ice or Water/Rock is an alternative counter to STAB Slash/Explosion/Blizzard, and you have 5 flavors with Snorlax, Rhydon, Kangaskhan, and the Nidos. Rock in general seems like a good type to have here. Ground & Fighting don't seem to be very popular types due to Ice and Psychic weaknesses respectively, and it hits Ice super-effectively while also hitting Ghost-types.

    Fire/Normal Flareon blasts through Ice/Ghost Lapras with ease and hits stupidly hard with its 130 base Attack. Gengar with STAB Thunderbolt or Psychic will win 1v1 though, Rock-types without a Fire-weak secondary typing are still roadblocks, and Ice/Rock while neutral vs. Fire Blast can still make Flareon think twice about throwing out Hyper Beams.

    Edit: Fire/Normal Machamp is also interesting, it similarly blasts through Lapras but trades Fire Spin for the ability to nail Rock-types with (non-STAB) Earthquake, and basically inverts Def and SpD bulk. Sadly Fire Blast is much weaker than Flareons though, and the Champ loses out on Fire Spin shenanigans.

    Edit 2: Forgot about Aerodactyl and Moltres. Fire/Normal Aero is a pretty potent revenge killer if it can get around Rocks. If Tradebacks were included, Fire/Ground Aero would be a beast, and could make Fire/Flying Moltres, Water/Flying Raichu, or Water/Flying Seaking relevant. Fire/Normal Moltres is bulkier and faster than Flareon, but doesn't have Body Slam and trades out Atk for SpA and reduces overall offense for better bulk.

    Normal/Psychic Scyther with SD/Agility/HB/Slash as 6th can obliterate teams as long as Rocks and Ghosts are cleared out of the way:
    +2 (Normal/Psychic) Scyther Hyper Beam vs. Snorlax: 450-529 (86 - 101.1%) -- 7.7% chance to OHKO
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
  18. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Ground typing on Arbok is to prevent Thunder Wave, much as Normal type (besides Wrap/Hyper Beam STAB) is intended to prevent Body Slam paralysis. Normal/Ground can only be paralysed by Stun Spore and Glare (this is also true of Ghost/Ground, but those don't exactly grow on trees).
     

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