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RBY RBY Little Cup (Beta Discussion and Speculation)

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Conni, Apr 17, 2017.

  1. Conni

    Conni Seasoned bling Member

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    So here it is again: RBY LC, its not really confirmed for an official tier yet but I think there should be discussions on how RBY LC would work in levels for the Pokemon, moves, availability etc. Don't talk about Pikachu Cup here because that's not relevant and this is about LC Pokemon in RBY as a whole. If there is enough interest and we can organize RBY LC to the point of agreement, then it might be considered as an official tier if approved so by the higher ups or if the mechanics and availability are too hard to handle or we cannot come to a general consensus then RBY LC might not exist until we come to one.

    Example discussion points could be:
    • What levels should RBY LC Pokemon be placed at?
    • Should tradebacks be allowed or not?
    • Should we only use Pokemon that are available at level 5 and not use Pokemon that aren't?
    Have fun discussing and speculating, if everything works out and we can come to some sort of organization, then lets hope RBY LC can possibly become a fun and organized official tier in the future!

    IMPORTANT NOTE: Current pre evolutions such as Onix are banned, only Pokemon that can evolve and are at the bottom of the evolution chain are acceptable & possible RBY LC Pokemon Candidates, Clefairy would be unavailable with GSC Tradebacks so we have to talk about that as well if we decide to go with tradebacks or not.
     
  2. Conni

    Conni Seasoned bling Member

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    As some of you may know, a lot of pre evolutions in RBY are not available at Level 5 which is the general level that LC Pokemon are set at, so this is a major discussion point. Previously in Enigami's old RBY LC Viability Ranking thread the LC level was set at 30, although there is a possibility of setting it at lvl. 100 using RBY's mechanics as an exception and that so the RBY LC Pokemon can have enough moves to be viable in the tier.

    So I'd go with lvl. 100 RBY LC Pokemon, it does break the general rule of lower level LC Pokemon but RBY is whack af and if we make this exception I think RBY LC can be more organized.

    also don't try to set RBY pre evolutions to level 5 on the PS Teambuilder if they aren't available at level 5 because that crashes PS and thats never good.
     
  3. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Here's all the main varieties of RBY you could go with:

    Glitch/Partial Tradebacks - Level 5, GSC/glitches allowed to obtain for moves that are part of the RBY learnset
    Pros: The 'original' RBY LC metagame
    Cons: Not possible on cartridge without complicated glitches or GSC tradebacks, which would make it very impractical where GSC tradebacks aren't possible (such as the 3DS).

    Cartridge Legal - Level 30
    Pros: Possible on RBY cartridge (including max EVs) without the use of complicated glitches or GSC tradebacks, non-overpowered partial trapping, Dragon Rage and Sonic Boom, probably the ONLY meta where Magikarp isn't total garbage (fast Dragon Rage user, though it'd probably need a 2U meta since the most viable stuff available is usually faster than Magikarp)
    Cons: LC Pokemon do not have access to all of their moves, though this may actually increase diversity (especially for Grass-types - Exeggcute lacks powders and has to rely on Hypnosis, making it not quite as clearly superior to the other Grasses, Bellsprout lacks Razor Leaf, Bulbasaur doesn't get powders at all but is the only Razor Leaf user, and Oddish is the same but now its competition isn't outright superior) and many of the lost moves are either semi-useless or very strong moves (Slash, Hydro Pump, Amnesia). Biggest downside though is until I can make a custom client, I have no way to make it easy to know which moves each Pokemon can learn by level 30.

    Tradebacks - Level 5, GSC tradeback moves allowed.
    Pros: Possible if you can link RBY and GSC.
    Cons: Requires complicated glitches or ability to trade with GSC, uses tradeback moves, Magnemite, Voltorb and Staryu cannot obtain their levelup moves.

    Your proposal - Level 100
    Pros: Very easily possible on cartridge, and no issues with moves that cannot be obtained before a certain level.
    Cons: Little Cup typically means lower levels, however I think considering the lack of recovery and bulk present in later gens (No Oran/Gold/Chesto Berries, no Eviolite, less access to recovery, etc.), the extra bulk granted from being level 100 as opposed to level 5 might be beneficial for RBY anyway.

    I'll try to figure out what's up with the level 5 crash later.
     
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  4. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Moderator

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    source bulbaepedia, not rly the competitive pokemon hub or anything but i'm pretty sure it's the universal definition of LC

    If you're not playing with level 5 mons then you're not playing LC. Allowing tradebacks makes everything easier and you have the "real" rby LC tier. Also not sure why how complicated are the glitches on cardridge really matter when we're playing on a simulator (we play on there to get rid of the "annoying things you have to physically do to play competitive pokemon" like eving etc). I say let's use the "level 5" thing as a starting point. I guess the simulator problem can be looked at ? idk, i'd rather not play LC than play a "wrong LC", but if PP can have it as a tier i'd definitely play it as far as i'm concerned
     
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  5. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I think the complex glitches thing is a little like obtaining HP legendaries in GSC without glitches- it's theoretically possible but in practice no-one's ever going to do that. That's actually a pretty good precedent here imo, suggesting we should allow stuff that's practically impossible- that's setting aside the factor of tradebacks, which makes everything a lot more feasible.

    I'm with Peasounay on this one tbh, level 5 is imo a defining characteristic of LC. I know normally I tend to side with cartridge accuracy and no glitch-only stuff, but I see LC differently tbh. To my knowledge it's historically been heavily dependent on glitches to be played the way it is, so we can afford to be a bit lenient with what we allow. Personally my ideal ruleset would be as consistent with both general LC and RBY as possible- this means level 5, access to the full learnset and no tradeback-only moves, even if tradebacks are used to make the team (basically the old rby2k10 edition of RBY LC). Note that I haven't considered Clefairy and genderless pokemon here so for me that's still up in the air.

    Also Enigami, when you say complex glitches are we talking ACE complex?
     
  6. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Why would HP legendaries be a problem? Wouldn't you just need a Master Ball, possibly Rare Candies, a save just before you face the legendary Pokemon, and knowledge of what stats when you capture it correlate to which IVs? All RBY & GSC Legendary Birds, Mewtwo and Suicune atleast should be easy to do. Raikou and Entei would be more problematic, but atleast for OU/1U that leaves only one difficult to obtain HP legend, although that's not as big of a deal since Hidden Power is not absolutely necessary for Raikou. Mew and possibly Celebi (don't remember how that was obtained) though would be borderline impossible to get a certain Hidden Power for, but fortunately the only HPs they could even theoretically have use for are HP Bug, and maybe HP Grass for Celebi.

    Also, considering that theoretically with ACE, it is possible to get level 5 Pokemon with full access to their levelup movepool entirely within RBY, and that LC traditionally uses glitches to work anyway (even RBY/GSC require a glitch involving the PC applying EV changes and the Daycare resetting experience to the minimum for their current level), I think going ahead with a glitch/partial tradebacks LC wouldn't be a problem. If I remember correctly, there was also another way you could obtain them at level 5 using the Hybrid glitch. You use the glitch to give the Pokemon a slow leveling rate, level them up to level 100, then switch them to a fast leveling rate which should put them above level 100, then continue leveling them up/rare candying until they loop over 255 back to 0, bring them up to level 5, then re-stabilize them. This would mean genderless Pokemon could also have access to their movesets.
     
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  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Pika Cup makes more sense than RBY LC ever will.
    And you're disallowing discussion of Pika Cup?
    Here's the list.
    LC is a pretty dodgy idea in the first place and RBY is pretty clearly not meant for it.
    (What I didn't say there was that the "has evolutions" requirement is kinda garbage too.)

    At least Pika Cup lets the shitmons of ordinary competitive paradigms compete with the "better" ones as well as they do in-game.

    (Well, sort of. Yellow spoils everything by having a billion underlevelled top 'mons. I've given some thought to "pre-Celadon" as a restriction in addition to a level cap - I think that'd be interesting.)
     
  8. Conni

    Conni Seasoned bling Member

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    Pika Cup already has its own thread and even if it makes more sense it is not the thread for it.
    The only LC thing that is dodgy is RBY LC, yes even I admit that it is dodgy and it creates a lot of hassle due to the many other outcomes but possible GSC LC and up aren't as much as a hassle as RBY LC because things are much easier as the generations go up. There is a possibility RBY LC won't exist at all so we have yet to discuss that in its thread, and personally I don't mind either because RBY is a very uncomfortable generation to have LC in but thats why we have this thread to discuss that.

    Also about you saying we should discard the "yet to evolve entirely" or "has evolutions", that completely breaks the standard of LC, because LC is all about baby Pokemon, baby Pokemon that have yet to evolve and must evolve, it has to make sense that there is an evolution of the Pokemon used in LC because thats what makes it entirely LC so I disagree with discarding these two statements because they're really important and they are what makes LC, if we remove these rules then LC wouldn't be LC it would be a very low RBY tier something like RBY 7B or RBY 8B because RBY 6A already uses technical LC mons like Ponyta and that isn't really LC because Machoke and Muk are in it, and thats not technically LC is it? I don't mean to fight with you because you are a respectable person and you've been here much more than I have, but I just wanted to point out if we change those two mentioned rules, then LC wouldn't be LC, and sorry if I sounded off or condescending.

    I agree with this, even though I suggested lvl. 100 LC mons, I thought that it could be used as a last ditch effort if nothing else worked and we really wanted LC, so I think that if we tried to work from GSC Tradebacks and find away to get level 5 RBY mons legitimately and that they have enough moves then I think it can work as the simulators do have all the moves they can get from glitching or GSC tradebacks anyways so I guess the only problem is the simulator crashing.
     
  9. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    A little problem even with pre-Celadon Pika Cup is that most teams would be comprised of:
    Alakazam
    Clefable
    Wigglytuff
    Nidoking
    Nidoqueen
    Fearow
    Raticate
    Butterfree
    Golem
    Gyarados

    Even if you restricted trade-evolutions and you could only use items from a single playthrough, there's 3 Moon Stones you can obtain before Celadon which brings us to:
    Clefable/Wigglytuff/Nidoking/Nidoqueen (pick 3)
    Fearow
    Raticate
    Butterfree
    Gyarados or maybe Wartortle (much more likely Wartortle if Gyara is banned)
    Kadabra or Mr. Mime
    Graveler

    Edit: Removed Gengar/Haunter, forgot you needed a Silph Scope to get them first.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  10. peach_nair

    peach_nair Member

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    Does this exist yet? Is there a final ruleset?
     
  11. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    Since I like LC's concept and I could see RBY LC being a decent tier, I have a proposal that attempts to solve the level debate.

    You know how in VGC your team is automatically downleveled to level 50 when the battle starts? That is an actual cartridge mechanic from later gens: keeping moves, evolutions, etc. and simply applying a level downgrade to the 'mons. Now of course it's not something that is on the original RBY games and it's difficult to replicate artificially on cartridge if you people care about that, but in general, I feel like saying that RBY LC is just an application of a similar restriction + a banlist would solve most of the "what level should we play at?" kind of problems. 100% with Peas on this one, LC has to be played at level 5 - just allow all of the moves and pokemon at level 100 and effectively just apply a VGC-style level downgrade.

    I'd personally love to see this become a thing, so if we can manage to reach a consensus and get this started that would be pretty dope.
     
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  12. Mantishuffle

    Mantishuffle Just another gen wunner. Member

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    Hey I'm back after not posting anything for close to 3 years.

    Anyway, the idea of RBY Little Cup intrigues me. For me the appeal is the possibility of more variety and less stall than in OU with the added bonus of using Pokémon at lv.5. At such a low level there is less deviation in damage ranges and critical hits are essentially 1.5 times as strong instead of close to 1.95 times like at lv.100.

    But more to the point I will give my opinions on what RBY LC should look like. Firstly Pokémon must be lv.5 or lower, and only the earliest stages of NFEs should be eligible for battle. These 2 rules are the core LC rules. Without them it cannot be called LC. Secondly, and what is probably the most important part of this thread, is the legality of LC as it would apply in cartridge play. Assuming no tradebacks (I greatly dislike tradebacks by the way) there would be few eligible Pokémon. Only 18 like magic9mushroom pointed out, with 3 of them being trash and 1 / 3 of the remaining being water types. That doesn't sound like a fun or promising tier to me. With tradebacks however we get every 1st stage except for Clefairy which is much better.

    But here I have an important point to make that has been stated a few times here already. In most generations for LC to make any sense one would need the use of glitches or hacking in real game. This leads me to ask this question here (sorry if it seems off topic) in generation 2 is it possible to attain a lv.5 Pokémon with maximum stats without the aid of something like GameShark or arbitrary code execution (ACE for short)? I know it is impossible in gen 1 so that leads me to this: assuming it is also impossible in gen 2 how exactly would this work on a simulator? I know in gens 5, 6, and 7 it is possible because of how EVs are earned not to mention Super Training. Gen 3 has some glitch that I can't recall. Not sure about gen 4. I doubt anyone would agree to use Pokémon with DVs of 15 in every stat but without stat exp.

    There are 2 ways to fix this. One is like how The Idiot Ninja mentioned. Just treat it as if your lv.n Pokémon was just leveled down to a max of 5 for the purpose of battle. This would make Clefairy legal, however I don't like this thought very much because there is no way to do such a thing in cartridge. Another, and the way I prefer since I hate tradebacks, is to allow for ACE to be the explanation of how lv.5 Pokémon with max potential can be obtained. I know anything is possible with ACE including using glitch Pokémon and teaching any Pokémon any move but bear with me here. Glitches are used in other gens to obtain Pokémon within legal confines. What makes ACE any different?

    Just to make one thing clear here, and not to say that I am an ACE expert, but with the few very useful item setups I know and an easy to obtain bootstrap in Red and Blue lv.5 Pokémon with max potential are pretty easy to obtain. It takes about 10 minutes or less.

    A few final points here. I'm afraid I have to agree with magic9mushroom that RBY LC doesn't make any sense. It was introduced in gen 2 via Pokémon Stadium 2 where lv.5 makes sense because that is the level Pokémon hatch at. We all know there is no breeding in gen 1 which is why tradebacks is even a consideration in the first place. Another thing is that I know we are all going to continue to pretend that a DV of 15 in every stat is possible for every Pokémon without glitching or hacking, and like I mentioned about it being impossible for lv.5 Pokémon to have max potential. If we knowingly play this on a simulator that does things that cannot be done on cartridge naturally why not just use ACE as an explanation to obtain things within the intended confines of the game? Also, and this is just a minor peeve of mine, I don't think a Pokémon should know moves it learns through level up if it is not high enough level. I know breeding remedies this but you have to remember I hate tradebacks!

    To sum things up and answer Conni's 3 main points: 1) The core rules of only 1st stage NFEs at lv.5 or lower are a must. 2) Tradebacks should not be allowed only if ACE or GamShark (ACE is easier) is the means of obtaining eligible Pokémon. If ACE cannot be accepted then tradebacks make sense. I'm sorry but I can't very much care for RBY LC with tradebacks. 3) We should use any 1st stage NFE. Tradebacks and ACE are considered to obtain Pokémon at lv.5 when it would be impossible otherwise. Allowing only the 18 naturally obtainable Pokémon would suck.

    So yeah for me the ideal RBY LC would allow all 1st stage NFEs with max stat potential and with learnsets capped at lv.5 but with TMs and HMs allowed of course.

    One last thing. I am assuming that "tradebacks" here includes GSC moves that exist in RBY but cannot be learned in RBY. If this is not the case and tradebacks are solely for the purpose of obtaining otherwise unobtainable Pokémon at lv.5 then I am fine with that, although ACE is a much better method that should be accepted. I think it has been mentioned that no one in their right mind would grind to obtain such Pokémon naturally as intended.

    A little off topic here but to give an example I once played for about an hour and a half just fishing and grinding a lv.100 Snorlax in route 23; the best way to gain stat exp as intended after using vitamins. After recording results and doing the math it would take about 8 hours of non stop playing after using vitamins to gain max stat exp in every stat. And you can forget about catching something with its best DV spread without figuring out some weird RNG manipulation if you refuse to use ACE.

    Sorry for the long post I had a lot to say! Je je.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
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  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Welcome back! :D



    Also
    If you want that try RBY 3U :p
     
  14. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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  15. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    I've explained this before, not sure how you both missed it.

    Gen 1/2 has two 'features', one of which is the "box trick" that causes stats to update based on EVs without needing a level up when put in a PC and taken out, the second of which is using the daycare which doesn't store a Pokemon's experience, so when taken causes them to drop to the minimum experience for their current level. This means provided you train them while abusing the Daycare to avoid leveling them up, you can max out a level 2 Rattata's stats if you were patient enough.

    Alternatively, I haven't tried it but apparently there's some bug that lets you "hybrid" your Pokemon with another one, using that Pokemon's data. Can't remember the details, but I recall there being some way to use that to overlevel past 100, at which point you could use the item duplication glitch and just Rare Candy them up till they wrap back around to Level 0, then bring them up to Level 5. Using that method, you'd have access to the Pokemon's entire levelup movepool avoiding that problem.

    Finally, there's ACE which lets you do anything like maxing out DVs/EVs/giving any moves you need/etc.
     
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  16. Mantishuffle

    Mantishuffle Just another gen wunner. Member

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    Just a few points I wanted to add regarding what the RBY LC meta would be like.

    Firstly, and this goes for LC in all generations, speed ties are very common. The speed stat will range from 19 to 11 and with 54 eligible Pokémon (including Clefairy) one can easily see this will hold true during most battles.

    Secondly as I mentioned before critical hits are weaker at 1.5 times power in most, if not all cases, although this will still be enough damage to hax a KO in many situations. With lower base speeds being more common and the highest base speed being 100 critical hits will occur less often. Also damage ranges make less of a difference especially when the damage is low. A practical example could be Exeggcute switching into Diglett's Earthquake. There is a 1/39 chance to deal 6 HP damage and a 38/39 chance to deal 5 damage. However damage ranges are comparable to standard tiers when damage is higher. Doduo Body Slam vs Meowth deals 16 to 13 HP, or 69.5% to 56.5%. Plus with most Pokémon having low base stats it is common place for super effective STAB moves to 1hKO. This means that the meta could be pretty fast paced.

    Another damage related aspect to mention is that set damage moves like Seismic Toss and Night Shade are lousy options since it is a 5hKO against most of the Pokémon. However the set damage moves SonicBoom and Dragon Rage should be banned right away since they deal far too much damage. It should be noted that no eligible Pokémon can know SonicBoom at lv.5. Dragon Rage is a TM. This leads me to my next point.

    Legality is a big issue with LC and is what makes it as has been said a "dodgy" concept. Here is an example regarding move legality. If tradebacks are used for obtaining otherwise unobtainable Pokémon and not for version exclusive moves than only Dratini and Ekans get an immobilizing move in Wrap. Either way nothing learns Wrap through breeding. However if we allow all learnset moves (which doesn't make any sense to do in my mind since the Pokémon in question are at lv.5 and not all level up moves are breedable) then we get 2 other Pokémon that learn it. With how powerful Wrap is at lv.5 and with the possibility of over half a team knowing it the move would get banned right away with no chance of the meta ever developing with Wrap being legal. Another issue is that some Pokémon cannot learn certain TMs, like Exeggcute with Mega Drain, but can learn it via breeding in GSC. Not to mention moves like Headbutt and the elemental punches are transferable.

    My point about tradebacks is that I don't think GSC exclusive moves are necessary, in fact they should not be allowed. I understand using tradebacks as the intended and applicable to real game means of obtaining other Pokémon at lv.5, but like I've mentioned why not just use ACE? It's much faster and easier in real time. If glitches are allowed in generations where LC was not an ingame function than ACE should be allowed for gen 1.

    My final point I stand by my view of RBY LC allowing ALL 1st stage NFEs at level 5 or lower (no real advantage being lower). TMs and HMs obviously but no level up moves past lv.5 and no tradeback moves. All DVs set to 15 with max stat exp in every stat. Typical bans like no evasion or OHKO moves are to be expected with the possible quick ban of Wrap considering the damage it inflicts at lv.5. Sleep clause and freeze clause (don't get me started on these) are to be expected as well. I guess it's worth noting that with the limitations to moves that I propose there are only 3 sleep inducers: Drowzee, Exeggcute, and Jigglypuff. However Thunder Wave is a TM so there should still be plenty of love to spread.

    I would like for RBY LC to actually be a thing, preferably with my rules of move limitations of course. Fighting at lv.5 is drastically different than at lv.100 so it seems fun to try especially in my favorite gen. But yeah RBY LC doesn't make sense and I understand and will have to accept if this never becomes a thing.
     
  17. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017
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  18. ToadNorton

    ToadNorton Member

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    I very much agree with this I think that Gen 1 LC should Gen 1 Pokémon with the moves they can get in Gen 1 at Lvl. 100 lowered to Lvl. 5. That makes the most the sense to me.

    Looking forward to playing this tier
     
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  19. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Alright, quick made this to help out newcomers to RBY LC.

    Important Stuff:

    DIGLETT: [​IMG]
    Top LC Pokemon, Diglett is practically the Tauros of the tier. Very fast, powerful, and has all the coverage it needs to beat everything except Exeggcute. Fortunately, it is very frail, and the common Diglett dittos usually puts it in Quick Attack range. Every team should have one.

    EXEGGCUTE: [​IMG]
    Best and only safe switch in to Diglett, and on top of that is an all around good Pokemon between dual status, good stats, excellent typing and Explosion. Every team should have one.

    QUICK ATTACKERS:[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Very useful due to Quick Attack actually inflicting decent damage in Little Cup, and is important for keeping Diglett and other speedy frail attackers in check. Every team should have one or more.

    NORMAL RESISTS: [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Handy for absorbing Explosion, STAB Double-Edges, Quick Attacks and walling specific threats. Not an absolute necessity and increases weakness to Diglett, but teams should probably have one.

    OTHER DIGLETT CHECKS: [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Exeggcute and Quick Attack are the best answers to Diglett, but these Pokemon are also capable of switching into Diglett and forcing it out. Shellder and Krabby have enough bulk to survive 2 Earthquakes most of the time and threaten to OHKO back with their STABs, Pidgey and Doduo can switch into Earthquake and threaten to KO Diglett, and Paras can threaten it with status and a Mega Drain that'll put it in Quick Attack range. Not terribly necessary unless using a lot of Diglett-weak Pokemon.


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My general and likely inaccurate view of the tier:

    TOP MONS: [​IMG] [​IMG]
    GOOD MONS: [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    DECENT MONS: [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    IFFY MONS: [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    DO NOT USE: [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    These are outclassed in just about every way.
     
  20. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    Poliwag dominance in the lead position is pretty interesting. The only direct antilead is Voltorb which is a mon with many issues (for example: it invites your exeggcute in and trades with it at best, if you have a rhydon or geodude it's completely worthless, diglett forces it to explode, etc) and everything else just kinda has to get slept. Abra can speed tie and land a twave, Pikachu can tie and hope to score the KO before getting slept while not suffering as much from ground types as Voltorb (but still having an issue with Grass types), Meowth can tie but needs a crit tbolt to kill, Diglett outspeeds but also needs a crit, Ponyta ties but loses the 1v1, and every other available mon is just slower than Poliwag. Poliwag's also pretty dangerous with the Amnesia follow up but there are offensive and defensive checks to that (depending on which coverage move is dropped it's walled by either Exeggcute or other Water types). I wonder how the meta evolves to keep Poliwag in check because he looks dangerous asf lol
     
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  21. Sceptross

    Sceptross Moderator

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    Okay, I was waiting for us to have a bigger knowledge of the meta to do something like Enigami did. In that case, I'll leave my two cents here.

    First of all, shoutouts to the rest of the (current) RBY LC crew (Enigami, Kaz, Ch01W0n5h1n and Meeper12346) for the really enjoyable discussion and games. Most of my opinions come from extensive discussion and lots of games played (and spectated) with them. Also we kinda monopolized PP's Discord for the last couple of days with RBY LC discussion, sorry about that :p

    I really like Bulbasaur lead. It is counter-led by Abra and Poliwag (and to a lesser extent, Gastly, but "Fastly" has better things to do). However, leading Poliwag to anti lead it is very fishy because if you miss Hypnosis, you're dead. Abra is just like Alakazam in 1U in the lead spot, except it will probably never wake up. Sleep leads seem much more important in here than in 1U, because of how fast-paced the meta is.

    Diglett is very, very strong. For now it doesn't seem ban-worthy strong, but it's like Tauros in 1U, potentially better since it doesn't care about Thunder Wave. Every team should have one.

    Exeggcute really doesn't want to be worn out. Every piece of damage it takes means at least one less opportunity to come on Diglett. It's a huge shame it doesn't learn Mega Drain (in fact, that fact got us discussing for a while if Paras, due to learning it, resisting EQ and having STAB, could manage Diglett, but nvm, that thing is unstoppable). Keeping in mind that it's the only Pokemon that can reliably withstand the ridiculously destructive power of Diglett, it's pretty much mandatory too.

    Drowzee is a cool lead too. It destroys Bulbasaur if it misses Sleep Powder. But overall it seems inferior to Abra, Poliwag or Bulbasaur.

    From what I've seen from Meowth, it seems inferior to Eevee and Clefairy and heck, even Rattata (although Rattata is more questionable). It just doesn't hit hard enough. Rattata has the combination of BlizzBolt and Quick attack, which is a godsend and puts it, imo, in the "Good Mons" tier, but probably low good, because it lacks the stats to make use of that insane movepool...

    ... something Clefairy does not. Clefairy gets everything. Seriously, if it'd get Quick Attack it would probably be S tier. That's, in fact the only reason Rattata is relevant, because Clefairy doesn't get Quick Attack. For now, I'd put it in the top of A tier.

    Ponyta is good. Very good. But it has a weird tendency to end up paralyzed all the time and it loses a lot of its potential when paralyzed (top tier Pokémon for pivoting). It gets Agility though, so it can still be very useful.

    Enigami, you forgot about Slowpoke :p It is an excellent check to Diglett, the best one after mini-Egg. Definitely an A-level Pokemon.

    Pokémons I want to see more of: Doduo, Omanyte, Poliwag, Sandshrew, Vulpix, Mankey

    PS: I'll be donating 1$ to Doctors Without Borders everytime I mention a family line's last evolution when I mean the LC Pokémon.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
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  22. MeepBard

    MeepBard Member

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    Hey, guys! I made a viability list of all mons in RBY LC, coupled with Sample Sets using Google Docs, with the help of Enigami. Let me know if there's anything I missed, thanks :] Also, I'm that Meeper12346 that Disaster Area mentioned earlier in the thread.

    Pokemon Viability List (No Tradebacks) - Gen 1 LC - Google Docs

    NOTE: This is not a viability rankings list, it's a list of Pokemon and their niches in the metagame. also i'm new to this forum please be gentle xoxo
     
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