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RBY 6U (Under5U) RBY 6A Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Peasounay, Mar 20, 2017.

  1. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Welcome to the 6A "ZU" Viability Ranking Thread! In case you're not familiar with the concept, we place Pokémon in certain ranks here, based on their impact on the tier as well as their general viability in the tier. This is an excellent help while teambuilding and it serves as a general outline of the tier. Furthermore it is used in our formation of the tier below.

    If you feel that a Pokémon is misplaced, feel free to make a post about it - that's what this thread is for. As long as you are reasonably sensible and courteous this thread should run smoothly.

    Pokemon are sorted into ranks based on how well they perform in their roles. They are ordered alphabetically within each ranking to avoid overcomplication.

    Tierlist | Discussion Thread

    S Rank


    These Pokémon are the most effective Pokémon in the metagame. Their offensive and defensive prowess, as well as versatility, and ability to fulfill a variety of important roles lend themselves to this.

    [​IMG] Butterfree - Analysis
    [​IMG] Kabutops - Analysis
    [​IMG] Machamp - Analysis

    A Rank

    These Pokémon perform significant roles in the metagame, and perform them very well, however they are not the most dominating forces.

    [​IMG]
    Hitmonlee - Analysis
    [​IMG] Marowak - Analysis
    [​IMG] Weepinbell - Analysis

    B Rank


    These Pokémon are strong choices in the metagame, but perform less important roles or are less consistent than Pokémon in the Rank above. They have larger flaws than Pokémon in above ranks, or face greater competition from similar Pokémon, reducing their usefulness.

    [​IMG]
    Flareon - Analysis
    [​IMG] Muk - Analysis
    [​IMG] Pidgeot

    C Rank

    These Pokémon are more infrequent sights in the metagame, particularly in top level matches, but are nevertheless viable Pokémon. They are less effective in the metagame than Pokémon in above ranks, but are effective with proper support.

    [​IMG]
    Horsea - Analysis
    [​IMG] Machoke - Analysis
    [​IMG] Magneton - Analysis
    [​IMG] Onix - Analysis
    [​IMG] Pikachu - Analysis
    [​IMG] Ponyta - Analysis
    [​IMG] Seel - Analysis
    [​IMG] Weezing - Analysis

    D Rank

    These Pokémon are very rare sights in top level matches, and suffer from more crippling flaws. They require a lot of support to be effective, and may have consistency issues.

    [​IMG] Diglett
    [​IMG] Dratini
    [​IMG] Omanyte
    [​IMG] Sandshrew

    E Rank

    These Pokemon are barely viable in the tier but require very specific support to make use of. They have flaws too crippling for them to be seen at all often in high level play, but nevertheless are still explorable options. They are generally considered gimmicks.

    [​IMG] Charmeleon
    [​IMG] Clefairy
    [​IMG] Golbat
    [​IMG] Gloom
    [​IMG] Ivysaur
    [​IMG] Meowth
    [​IMG] Nidorina
    [​IMG] Paras
    [​IMG] Tentacool

    F Rank

    These Pokemon have flaws too crippling to ever be serious contenders in the tier, and tend to suffer from being largely but not totally outclassed. They are considered gimmicks.

    [​IMG] Ekans
    [​IMG]Shellder

    To be discussed:

    Mainly C and D Ranks regarding the vote coming soon (which includes B ranks dropping)
    Feel free to theorise or test any unranked pokemon too

    Last changes:

    Magneton D -> C
    Weezing D -> C
    Onix B -> C
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 15, 2017
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  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Proposing Diglett to C, it's as viable of a lead as Onix / Pikachu. Beats pikachu in 1v1, does heavy damage to butterfree like the other two, with rock slide. Unlike Onix, doesn't body pidgeot or magneton as well, but is better vs pika. No partial trapping though unlike Onix. Basically I see it as pretty comparable to those two.
     
  3. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    I think Nidorina should go to E. Her Earthquake and Psychic weaknesses hold her back and her offenses are pretty poor (would've been decent had she got Psychic though). She's merely not unusable when there's better things to use. But despite that I'll probably use her occasionally anyway. Shame this isn't tradebacks, Lovely Kiss would elevate her to C easily.
     
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  4. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Weepinbell to B? I'm not sure.
    On the other hand Body Slam/Acid Armor/Mega Drain/Explosion Muk has potential.
     
  5. terpnation

    terpnation Member

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    Proposing that Muk moves up to B and Flareon moves up to C. Acid Armor Muk is a force and both can be dangerous if not handled properly.
     
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  6. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I meant to post after my set with DA but I forgot...

    Anyhow, Flareon 100% needs a raise. Sure it gets ruined by Rocks, but status is a massive threat, and if you're not risking your Tops (or Onix) getting statused, there really isn't a lot that's suited to take it on. Also, its speed is actually pretty decent, as besides Rock types there is nothing that is both faster than it and suited to taking its attacks.

    I'm pretty sceptical of Choke in B, I think of it as being a bit lower but I need more testing.

    Pidgeot is legit. STAB Hyper Beam is awesome and SubToxic is surprisingly effective at interfering with its checks. Could maybe go B?

    Muk I don't think I used in my set vs DA, so I can't really comment on the AA set.

    I could see Weepinbell in A. It's the obvious choice to back up lead Butt, but it's also itself one of the best leads in the tier- it loses to Butt, but it beats literally every anti-lead to Butterfree, which forms a nice triangle (think yomi, scissors paper rock, Fire Emblem, etc)
     
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  7. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Imo the rankings should look like this:

    S- Champ, Butt, Tops
    A- Lee, Wak, Bell
    B- Onix, Pidge, Flare, Dig, Pika, Muk
    C- Dratini, Ponyta, Choke
    D- Mag, Omanyte

    Bell, Lee and Wak are imo clearly the 3 next best pokemon after the S ranks. Lee and Wak are obvious, Bell I've stated why. That leaves B rank empty besides Choke, but tbh all of the pokemon currently residing in C rank feel like regular pokemon in the tier rather than fringe mons, such that B better describes them. Also I still think Choke's overrated and Flareon is underrated (NOTHING switches into Fire Blast and its bulk is actually pretty decent). Some of that I'm fine if ppl disagree with, but I'm adamant that Flare and Pidge are B.

    C rank I believe is where Dratini and Ponyta belong. Ponyta works because it's fast and there's not really any Fire switch-ins in this tier, such that it makes a great lead against both Bell and Butt and with its attacks and the combo of status and fast Fire Spin it consistently contributes. Hell, I've talked myself into ranking it higher, but I'll settle for C for now. Dratini is the epitome of a C rank pokemon, potentially extremely deadly, but there's a lot working against it- practically everything deals massive damage to it, which means it has a tough time setting up and gets punished hard if Wrap misses, and it lacks power, which means that Rock types are still very strong checks to it and it also needs to push Wrap even further to get results. On the other hand though... it's AgiWrap. It's still an absurdly potent strategy capable of single-handedly winning games.

    Other pokemon I tested in my set vs Peasounay include Omanyte and Shellder. Omanyte was pretty underwhelming. Although it resists Tops' boosted attacks it still loses as Tops will actually overpower it with Surf. Still, Tops is a beast so I guess whittling down its HP is noteworthy in and of itself. Its utility is a little limited, since its only great matchups are Pidgeot and fire types. I will note that its power is fairly decent, but it doesn't have the right combination of speed/bulk to back it up. D rank imo, could maybe go C if fire types become popular but even then I'm sceptical. Shellder was garbage, too slow and weak to do anything, and its bulk isn't even that good. E rank imo.

    edit: also wanna say that I agree with Peasounay's recent post in the tour thread in that this tier isn't particularly fun. Even early 5U was better despite being water type stallwars. Still, that's also an example of why there's still hope for this tier yet, since we know 5U is amazing now
     
  8. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Ivysaur is decent: speed 60 outspeeds Bell and Machamp.
    Flareon is C at least, as Pidgeot is likely to take Kabutops out of the equation and might be worth more than B itself.
    Pidgeot hurts a a lot, and can add Rest to its moveset (over Hyper Beam).
    A rise of Pigeot and Flareon combined would lead to a wild increase of Onix's usage (mainly, you beat that team by using Onix against Pidgeot and saving Kabutops for Flareon); we just need to play more. A lot.
    What we consider standard right now can beat Pidgeot anyway, though: Machamp beats Pidgeot and Hitmonlee can Counter Double Edge. Marowak helps too.
     
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  9. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Counter is a waste, Medidate / Mega Kick / HJK / BSlam best set tbqh. Super dangerous with a free turn or two. Counter Marowak is legit though.
    These are viable? I tried dratini and it.. well I won that game vs Marco but I still think it sucks.

    ... that being said, your argument for Ponyta as a lead is super interesting.

    Yeah, early 5U was dreadful (actually I've been enjoying 6A more than early 5U)
     
  10. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Made the following changes:

    Weepinbell B -> A - Everyone seems to agree
    Muk, Onix, Pidgeot C -> B - All are consistent enough
    Flareon D -> B - I think it's p good too, just keep in mind Kabutops still has the possibility of switching into it (so not nothing), but it's definitely a pokemon we have to observe more
    Machoke B -> C - Yea, not the best, still usuable. Seems like a real C rank
    Dratini, Omanyte, Ponyta Unranked -> D - I'd like to wait for more testing before putting any of these higher, they're usuable even if I personally think they're quite specific (well it's D rank)

    I also created F rank in which I've put Shellder for consistency-sake, I've never been a fan of F rank in lower tiers though. I've left Pika and Diglett in C for the time being because they're too frail I think
     
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  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    One thing to note about Ivysaur is outspeeding Weepinbell makes it a slightly superior choice of lead. Maybe it could move up to D?
     
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  12. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Potentially, but the lack of reliable para means that if it gets a good lead matchup it might have difficulty doing much beyond that unless you manage to go on a rampage with SD+BSlam which I think would require some luck as Butterfree switches in relatively comfortably. I actually looked to test Ivy as a lead, but unfortunately Enigami brought a Butterfree lead so it didn't do anything.

    I think that Magneton could be underrated. Ground types are a huge factor definitely, but they're far from omnipresent. If they're out the way that leaves Bell as the only other real switch-in, which is really shaky imo. On the flipside its Tbolt hits like a nuke, and its BST is pretty decent, 70 Speed + TWave is nice and it also lives +2 Tops HBeam while making a decent Butterfree response (though I guess it can't do both lol). I'm not proposing it move anywhere atm because it has basically no way of damaging Grounds and this meta is too fast paced to allow you many opportunities to find another way around them, but I'd still like to hear some thoughts.
     
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  13. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    When Ch01W0n5h1 and me first tried the tier, we liked Magneton a lot: it's more than decent against Butterfree, and can anti-lead it as well (it's a speed tie).
    What happened next, is that Marowak proved to be good, and as you said there aren't many opportunities to find ways around Grounds besides from being lucky with how things play out. Onix is an issue as well, possibly even worse, while Diglett is 2HKO'd by Double Edge, in case.

    As Marowak's usage dropped a bit (but I think I it's still very common) Magneton could be C and belong to the tier, but we need to see how things stablize eventually: I don't see Magneton as something scary like a Zapdos or a Dodrio (mainly, it doesn't have the speed/crit rate nor the moveset).
    When you use a pokemon that is walled and might need a lot of teamwork to work, you want a better reward - in this case, I don't see Magneton's usage being high at the end. Poor Magneton.
     
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  14. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I still support Pony and Tini to C. Adamant on Pony, less so on Tini. I honestly consider Pony better than everything else in C rank, it's easily as effective as Pika as a lead. Actually I've changed my mind on Tini it can stay in D, I'll make a post in the general discussion thread elaborating

    Diglett ought to drop to D. It seems its only role is as a lead, but it's really terrible at it. It's just way too KO prone to effectively absorb status, and its power against neutral targets is merely average. In particular the Weepinbell matchup is awful, as you face a 50-50 between letting your Diglett get KO'd and letting something that's actually valuable to the team take sleep, while your reward for guessing right is small. You could argue Onix faces the same problem, but it has Bind to get itself out of that situation.

    Charmeleon deserves D rank. It's not that it's bad, just that its niche over the other Fire types (SD) is worthless in practice as it's too easy to wall, leaving it to basically function as a MUCH weaker Flareon that is able to speed tie Tops. So yeah, D imo (assuming Pony rises), though I could see it going lower since I've been a lot harsher on stuff that's outclassed in the past
    edit: maybe I stuffed up the moveset, prob need more testing
    edit2: I've decided E tho

    I also used Clefairy, which did absolutely bugger all, however I think that's as much due to the progression of the battle as anything. I see potential for it as a potential Butt switch in (haven't tested this since it didn't get the opportunity in the one game I used it), but the meta is too physically oriented for it to really shine. Gonna say D rank for now, potentially lower.
    edit: actually D rank is probably being a bit generous
    edit2: Definitely E rank

    On the topic of things being physically oriented, Tentacool is also really limited. Like Charmeleon, I don't think its SD is valuable as it's much better off using its raw power than setting up an SD which is only going to be met with something like Tops, which will rip it to shreds. Its speed is merely average and its physical power poor. Omanyte is a solid comparison, and here Tentacool's frailty really stands out, as it gets demolished by the many physical attackers of the tier, while also having imo a worse typing than Omanyte. Ironically its best shot at viability is as a check to Weepinbell imo. Since Omanyte's in D, I'm going to say E rank for Tenta

    edit: I really feel like Pony, Choke and Pika are obvious choices for inclusion in the tier, while legitimately borderline pokemon like Dratini dwell in D. We could vote on a different rank, but I prefer consistency, and so I think there ought to be some shifts to the VR instead, with most things moving up (though I think A and S ought to remain untouched)

    edit: I'm about to make another post, which would mean I triple posted which I think is a bit much, so I merged my first two posts and chucked them in spoilers

    ok played some more matches which means I post my thoughts again.

    I tried Gloom. It's bad. Sure it's got more bulk than the other Grass/Poisons but it's still not enough to make it good in that area, while it obviously drops the ball offensively. E rank imo.

    A similar sort of thing applies to Seel. It's probably the best defensive Water type that isn't weak to EQ, but that's setting a really low bar when the alternatives are really terrible. In practice it's not all that bulky and is too slow to make up for it. E rank.
    edit: Changed my mind, its Butt matchup isn't too shabby

    Horsea's actually not all that bad, which to me is surprising. An Agility set makes for a reasonably decent sweeper, which is cool. It's still not what I'd call good so I'm gonna say that based on the current rankings it ought to be D.

    Having said that, I really think that C/D rank needs sorting out, as there's a lot of stuff I consider legitimately borderline in the tier in D. I think Dratini, Ponyta and Horsea are good enough for C. Even Omanyte is decent, but I'd rather keep it in D, given that it's fairly matchup dependent.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017
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  15. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    More games more thoughts.

    I changed my mind on Seel- it's actually a really solid Butt switchin. It seriously checks all the boxes- decent special bulk, Psychic neutral, can hit Butterfree super effectively (98.8% to 2HKO, not sure about MD) and doesn't really care about status. Really I think the closest comparison is Magneton, which is obviously better as a Butterfree check but the obvious difference is that Seel isn't walled by a multitude of threats. I'm going to say C for now, but I think more testing needs to be done here, because imo Seel is legit.

    I tried Sandshrew and Ekans, they did bugger all. Tbh I don't really see the point of running Ekans (I only used it because it's listed in the OP as something to discuss), EQ isn't particularly valuable when all Rock types get hit harder by MD. If EQ isn't used I don't really see the point of Ekans since Bell can do just about everything else better- faster, bulkier, stronger, really all Ekans has is its movepool and that's not particularly valuable in practice. And it's worth reiterating that Ekans' stats are really really bad. Admittedly I never got to use it because it never saw play until the game was pretty much decided and then it immediately died to a crit, but that itself says something and also theorymon paints a terrible picture, such that I think it ought to be F rank. As for Shrew, idk, it could be usable, it really needs more testing, but for the sake of argument I'm going to say D.

    Also got around to using Weezing which was... interesting. It's actually really potent offensively, and it was able to put in work on a couple of occasions. I guess the key is using it as an attacking tool in matchups where its coverage has a super effective hit. Unfortunately it's pretty bad at damaging Champ (probably boom here?) and Butterfree outspeeds it which limits it a lot. If you wanna compare to Muk, Weezing's definitely better at what it does, but Muk is busy using AA which is far more valuable. Overall I'll say D- it's usable but not particularly good.

    PS: Pidgeot actually beats Pika 1v1- Hyper Beam OHKOs. I mean it's really simple to calc, but it's so counter-intuitive it caught me off guard. Also Submission Machamp is bad, EQ is a better choice due to accuracy, coverage and lack of recoil

    edit: I think this tier might be sneakily diverse, but a lot of those options are just slightly too niche to really make much noise when there are clear staples to use
     
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  16. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Seel Max Roll Blizzard: 188 HP
    Seel Min Roll Blizzard: 159 HP
    Butterfree Max Roll Mega Drain: 76 HP (38 leeched)
    Butterfree Min Roll Mega Drain: 64 HP (32 leeched)
    Butterfree's HP: 323

    188 - 32 + 188 = 344 - 323 = +21.
    159 - 38 + 159 = 280 - 323 = -43.
    Looks like you've got about a 1/3ish chance to get the 2HKO without a crit/freeze (also doesn't factor accuracy).

    Still, considering Butterfree only 5HKOs without Special drops or crits, that ain't bad.

    Agreed on Champ not needing Submission, EQ does plenty. Machoke has more use for it though for the STAB damage output/2HKO on Tops/36% OHKO on Onix, and mostly only because it doesn't learn Hyper Beam so Submission doesn't have as much competition for a slot.
     
  17. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Ok sorry for the delay, made the following changes:

    Ponyta D -> C based on orth's arguments
    Diglett C -> D i don't think it's very good either
    Charmeleon unranked -> E even if it technically has a niche i don't think it deserves D because it faces too much competition. It's one of those mons where you recognize the niche but end up never using it because in this case flareon is just that much better generally speaking
    Clefairy, Tentacool, Gloom unranked -> E
    Horsea unranked -> D based on orth's testing, Agility is a decent niche
    Seel unranked -> C going against butterfree is always good
    Ekans unranked -> F just to say it got tested
    Weezing, Sandshrew unranked -> D

    This makes the viability rankings look a bit messy in C/D Ranks but it's what happened in 4U and 5U too. I think the first goal is to sort out what's worth more testing and what's not (ty orth for your self sacrifices). That being said I agree with orth when he says a lot of stuff seems to have some sort of niche but is still clearly below the S/A rank (even B). I guess the next step is to sort out C/D while seeing what can maybe go up to B
     
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  18. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Ok, I no longer consider Dratini to be C rank. It's kind of an all or nothing pokemon in that it can dominate games but it gives you nothing if the stars don't align. And unfortunately I've basically decided that those question marks are too much for Dratini to be successful- there's the issue of setting up and then all Rock types must be removed. Setting up is an issue because it must avoid all status and it's 2HKO'd by everything. Weepinbell is practically mandatory for Wrap support and also because it tends to lure in sleeping Butterfrees which are the holy grail of setup opportunities. Anti-Rock support is the big dealbreaker here- being able to weaken Tops early is just not something that I think can be done consistently enough to justify Tini moving up, and that's to say nothing of a potential Onix matchup as well. So yeah, D is fine.

    I still need to do more testing of Horse and Shrew lol. I used them in my set vs Enigami and Horsea I thought did well, while I was less enamoured with Shrew. The caveat is that I didn't really make extensive use of either of them, hence the need for more testing. Although I didn't aim to sweep with Horsea it was able to contribute thanks to a decently strong HPump and decent speed, as it practically traded with Champ (leaving it weak enough to revenge). If it keeps this up I'll say C, but still need to test.

    Sandshrew I just don't know. First there's the fact that it's slow and easy to revenge thanks to its weaknesses and average bulk, but also I felt that it wasn't threatening enough without an SD and then on top of that its attacks are easy to play around- Earthquake is awkward with Butterfree being omnipresent (also Pidge is a thing). Well you can nail Butterfree with Rock Slide right? Well, yeah, but it does bugger all to other pokemon, so it feels like a coinflip as to whether or not you actually acomplish anything. It just felt sooo unwieldy. I mean in theory nothing really wants to take it 1v1 if it can get a boost in, besides stuff with decent SE attacks, but even then it's only really trading. Trading would be nice, since it's almost guaranteed that whatever it trades with is more valuable than it, but unfortunately getting that trade is far from guaranteed. In fact I'm sold on this being no higher than D, potentially E rank.

    edit: Definitely D rank for Shrew, it actually managed to put in work for me today. Still don't know about Horse tho. Also Tentacool was surprisingly threatening when it appeared- Water/Ice coverage with 100 special is no joke. Still not sure I'd bump it up considering how many issues it has but it's notable nonetheless
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
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  19. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Ok I really think Horsea could be C rank. I used it vs Ch01 and it wound up sweeping and I really think it's very solid.
    [Gen 1] 6A replay: Ch01W0n5h1n vs. Ortheore - Pokémon Showdown. Having said that, there are some caveats; I may have lucked into a fortunate matchup for Horsea and I certainly disagree with Muk>Champ (if Champ was used it would've 2HKO'd, albeit at the cost of most of its HP). Overall I think it's C-worthy, although I don't intend to vote it into the tier.

    Also Tentacool could maybe be D? Defensively it's absolute garbage, while offensively it lacks Horsea's sweeping ability, but it hits a good deal harder while also having Wrap up its sleeve to help with hit and run type stuff. Basically although it's a pain to use, it's equally as unpleasant to switch into

    edit: Submission anything is still bad, but it wasn't until I calced Muk's Sludge that I realised it's only marginally more powerful than Body Slam while BS has a much better secondary effect and better coverage
     
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  20. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Uh...
    What calcs were you doing?

    Body Slam: 20% 3HKO Butterfree, 5HKO Pidgeot (no para), possible 5HKO Machamp, 50% 3HKO Horsea, 4HKO Seel, 44% 3HKO Hitmonlee, 21% 3HKO Ponyta, 13% 2HKO Pikachu
    Sludge: 2HKO Butterfree, 4HKO Pidgeot, 4HKO Machamp (if it gets poisoned by one of the Sludges), 3HKO Horsea, 78% 3HKO Seel, 3HKO Hitmonlee, 3HKO Ponyta, 2HKO Pikachu

    Sludge is marginally yet significantly more powerful. Body Slam misses a bunch of KOs. I'd argue Body Slam is even with Sludge for coverage, since Sludge+Mega Drain takes care of most everything but opposing Muk/Tentacool and actually being able to wreck Butterfree is very important. Body Slam is still great due to para + Muk dittos + occasional Tentacools, so in my mind it's Sludge=Body Slam in terms of strength, with Sludge bringing relevant power and strengthening a team vs. Butterfree + supporting Partial trappers with poison and Body Slam helping to support a team with para + covering opposing Poison-types.

    Agreed on Submission though, I had plenty of teams Machamps with Submission I had made early on that I hadn't updated and constantly wished I'd replaced with Hyper Beam when I used them in recent games. Only Machoke (and Charmeleon) wants it and that's because it doesn't have Hyper Beam and doesn't 2HKO Tops with EQ, and even then Submission has to compete with Counter/Body Slam.
     
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  21. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Moved up Horsea to C
     
  22. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    What are everyone's thoughts on Weezing and Magneton?

    I'm starting to feel they're significantly better than everything else in D, and on par with the NFE waters of C. Magneton is obviously heavily matchup dependent, but it's far from guaranteed that a Ground will be around and even if there is one, it's more than possible to take it out early on (admittedly this isn't consistent). Once Grounds are removed though? Magneton rips the tier to shreds. Electric is an insanely good attacking type, while Magneton's BST is amazing.

    As for Weezing, its nemeses are Onix and Machamp. Onix walls it while it lacks the raw power to significantly harm Machamp. Only issue there is Machamp is easily the best Explosion target in the tier. Otherwise its attacking tools are incredible, as almost everything that's hit neutrally by its coverage options is frail as hell. Fire Blast and Thunderbolt really drive the set, they're capable of doing a lot of damage and are a good part of the reason why I think Weezing is significantly better at running its set than Muk as its Special is 20 base points higher. Although it's definitely a more offensively inclined pokemon, it's not without defensive utility either thanks to its ability to tank neutral physical hits.
     
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  23. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Both to C?
     
  24. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Not sure where Weezing and Magneton belong on the C/D line, so no preference. I need more games with/against them.

    For Weezing, Machamp and Onix aren't even terrible matchups. Onix's terrible special means it is still 4HKO'd by Fire Blast which means Weezing can wear it down and a burn leaves Onix with absolutely no attack power, and Machamp loses the 1v1 if Weezing is fortunate enough to get a turn 1 burn.
     
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  25. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Well guys since Ortheore suggested to vote for the tier I'd suggest having a last debate on those ranks.

    I really haven't been invested in this tier so I will trust people who have been playing it for the past weeks, my opinion is that S through B are pretty much fine, but C & D could be solved so discussion is open. Maybe some C ranks could move up to B as well ?
     
  26. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I don't really understand the tier very well... I hope some people who understand it better have some opinions on C/D
     
  27. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Played a few games of Weezing to get a feel for it and I think can be raised to C now. Onix is annoying for it, but otherwise it isn't terribly hard for it to trade up. While Muk can run the same Boltblast + HB + Boom set (my preferred set for Weezing, as Sludge only helps against Butterfree which is beaten anyway by a Boltblast combo), outspeeding Machamp and Weepinbell and having greater Special power is significant enough for me to believe it should be bumped up.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  28. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I think Mag and Weezing ought to be C, for reasons mentioned in my previous post.

    Machoke I continue to have deep reservations about. Not only is it objectively inferior to machamp but if you want a second fighting type you also have to justify using it over Hitmonlee. Machoke is imo too slow and not powerful enough to be worth using most of the time (maybe if it got HB, but it doesn't). Granted, I haven't actually used it recently but tbh I don't think it's significantly better than Dratini. I'd say D, but maybe someone who's used it recently will be better positioned to comment on it.

    I really think Pikachu and Ponyta stand out from the rest. As things stand now they're the members of C that I'd vote for, but to me they don't even feel like niche options I honestly feel more comfortable using them than I do say, Onix. Imo they're B-worthy but I'm not super fussed over it. Alternatively, Onix could drop, since it doesn't have a role outside the lead position where it faces a fair amount of competition. Also lack of status sucks.

    Also Eni, another advantage of Sludge is hitting Fire types, mainly Flareon. HB is probably still better but I felt like pointing that out
     
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  29. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Oh, right, forgot about Flareon, I keep forgetting that's in the tier. I barely ever see anyone using that, seems like Ponyta is everyone's go-to Fire-type right now. Sludge is a 4HKO, and Thunderbolt > Thunderbolt > Thunderbolt > Hyper Beam has somewhere like a 2/3-ish chance to 4HKO, so it isn't a huge gain, though doing more chip faster and discouraging Flareon from switching in to begin with helps. Ponyta though is reliably 3HKO'd either with Sludge or Thunderbolt > Thunderbolt > Hyper Beam, so that isn't a terribly relevant matchup. Hyper Beam also provides a means to more reliably 2HKO Pikachu, which Weezing is pretty good at checking, and gives it 1/3 chance to straight up OHKO Diglett.
     
  30. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    I'll move Mag and Weezing up to C then

    As for Machoke it is indeed kinda hard to justifiy it over Hitmonlee but I'd go with physical bulk and eq so that it isn't walled by poison types ? I will leave it in C for the time being because it still seems better than D ranks... It will still be voted on for the tier so I'd say it's fine for now

    The possibility of Onix dropping is important though because it means it will get voted on (although if it's a close call between B or C it means it will probably be in the tier but still you get my point), don't hesitate to voice your opinion on that, and on everything else
     
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  31. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    onix just isnt that good lol I mean it has hilariously low attack lol
     
  32. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    I think Onix is a bit weak for B, a little too dependent on kamikaze and super effective hits to do damage.
     
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  33. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    I'm moving it down to C then
     
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  34. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Should Nidorina move up to D? Enigami had a lot of success with it
     
  35. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    In all honesty I'm not a fan of it, and my memories of my matches where Enigami used it, it wasn't all that impactful. I mean I guess D could work, but it's not something I support. Its typing limits it a lot, as its attacks lack power against neutral targets and Butterfree and EQ users hitting it sucks
     
  36. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Keep it E, Nidorina's surprising success when I've used her is in part because of luck and occasionally being in the right position for an end game sweep. Stats and typing really hold her back from being legit good, though if she had Lovely Kiss from tradebacks, that'd be a different story.
     
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