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RBY RBY 1v1 Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Eseque, Jun 28, 2017.

?

Should accuracy-lowering moves be unbanned?

Poll closed Jul 2, 2017.
  1. Yes

    1 vote(s)
    20.0%
  2. No

    4 vote(s)
    80.0%
  1. Eseque

    Eseque Host Emeritus

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    ☆Disaster Area:make a new thread if you like (Approved by Disaster Area)
    RBY 1v1! This (as far as I am aware) has never been done before so we will be starting from scratch, with just 1U rules (plus you can obviously only bring one Pokémon)

    Starting Discussion Points:
    • Should anything new be banned (e.g. sleeping moves) or unbanned?
    • What Pokémon and strategies will be viable in this tier?
    • Will the tier be dominated by familiar faces from 1U, will new Pokémon dominate, or a mix of both?
    Now, discuss (and have fun)!

    Edit: Sleep Moves Ban, Self-KO Clause, Partially-Trapping Moves Ban, and Accuracy-Lowering Moves Ban are now in place.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2017
  2. Eseque

    Eseque Host Emeritus

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    A few (possibly terrible) sets to get the discussion started:

    Chansey
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    IVs: 2 Atk
    - Soft-Boiled
    - Toxic
    - Reflect
    - Seismic Toss
    With no switching out, toxic stall should be highly potent. Reflect is obvious to allow Chansey to tank as much stuff as possible as it stalls.

    Electrode
    - Explosion
    - Screech
    - Thunderbolt
    - Take Down
    It's probably a meme, but fast screech + explosion may put in some work in this metagame.

    Snorlax
    - Earthquake
    - Self-Destruct
    - Counter
    - Body Slam
    This is bulky boom, which is most likely useful. Earthquake is really the only necessary thing to hit Gengar, so the last two slots are up to debate.

    Gengar
    - Explosion
    - Confuse Ray
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hypnosis

    Fast sleep + confusion hax + booming + immunity to enemy boom could make this a very relevant threat.
     
  3. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    Having the faster 'mon and hitting the sleep move literally cannot lose ever besides for misses (provided you can actually do damage to the thing you're facing) so it's pretty safe to say it needs to go IMO - we don't want matches to be decided on misses anyway, do we? And I guess you could say the same thing for Wrap and friends. I think we can all do without that stuff. And naturally Self-KO clause should be a thing, Explosion winning matches is stupid and broken.

    As a banlist I feel like Mew+Mewtwo+Sleep Moves+Wrap Moves is a good starting point. Considerations are surely to be made for Chansey first and foremost (Counter is a bitch), and then I'd have to try the actual tier to see if anything else is ban worthy.

    First thing that comes to mind, Articuno and Moltres are much stronger than they are in 1U. Articuno in particular just chunks stuff for three billion damage if it's not an Ice resist or a Chansey and the 2HKOs it can reach are ridiculous.
    Second thing that comes to mind, debuffs. Now obviously there's Psychic with the permanent drops which is super powerful (and honestly might be worth looking into as well in the future), but let's look at some other significant debuffing moves.

    Growl: A lot of stuff gets Growl and it could be one of the more consistent ways to check Snorlax. Lapras stands out the most between the Growl users imo.
    Leer/Tail Whip: Not too many great abusers, but it could be useful on Tauros and maybe DNite or Rhydon if they're somehow viable.
    Flash/Sand Attack/Double Team: Evasion stalling could be a real thing in 1v1. Everything and their mother learns Double Team so it's definitely something that you can use to cheat out wins in otherwise unwinnable match ups.


    Also noteworthy are Toxic and Rest. Some 'mons just win through Toxic, and some mons just don't lose certain matchups if they have Rest, bar crits. The combination of the two is also powerful. A way to beat Rest tanks (possibly even tanks with stat changing moves) reliably is probably great - Freeze, high crit rate, and stat boosting comes to mind.

    Probably comes down to a basic Stat Booster > Rest Tanks > Burst Damagers > Stat Booster triangle, with some exceptions here and there - but many 'mons can blur these definitions, so it's definitely interesting. I already have a bunch of ideas I want to try out but it's 5AM and I really need to sleep whoops
     
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  4. Eseque

    Eseque Host Emeritus

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    Double Team was already banned because 1U bans it. Sleep Moves Ban, Self-KO Clause, Partially-Trapping Moves Ban, and Accuracy-Lowering Moves Ban are now in place unless if anyone has any objections (the accuracy-lowering moves are banned here because the power level is noticeably lower here compared to later generations). Thank you to The Idiot Ninja (who isn't very much of an idiot in my opinion) for giving his input. Continue discussing any new possible bans such as Chansey and Toxic.
     
  5. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Some theorymon:

    I don't think Chansey even with Counter will be a huge problem, example vs. Tauros:

    Scenario 1:
    Tauros uses Leer, Chansey uses TWave / Counter
    Chansey uses anything but Reflect, Tauros uses Leer (66% OHKO range already, but one more to be sure / check for Reflect)
    Chansey uses anything but Reflect again, Tauros uses Hyper Beam and OHKOs

    Scenario 2:
    Tauros uses Leer, Chansey uses TWave
    Chansey uses Reflect, Tauros uses Leer
    Chansey uses anything, Tauros uses Leer
    Chansey uses anything, Tauros uses Leer
    Chansey uses anything, Tauros uses Hyper Beam and OHKOs

    Scenario 2 can be foiled with Tauros FPing or Chansey getting a critical hit, but on the flipside a crit HB from Tauros means Chansey just loses.

    vs. Snorlax: With Ice Beam, a freeze war that Chansey has an advantage in, Rest + DE / HB / Submission can fish for a OHKO, Amnesia + Psychic can eventually break it with Spc drops

    vs. anything with enough bulk to recover/rest in front of Chansey: Toxic and wait.

    Can come up with quite a few more examples, but on paper in a 1v1 scenario Chansey doesn't look broken, even if Toxic wasn't an option.

    Some example mons I can think of that can work:

    Tauros
    -Earthquake / Body Slam
    -Blizzard
    -Hyper Beam
    -Leer

    Leer is very important utility in a 1v1 especially for Reflect users, so dropping Body Slam (or Earthquake if you're fine with losing the Gengar matchup) is needed to make room. You only need to get a single Pokemon in Hyper Beam range to win anyway.

    Lapras
    -Blizzard
    -Thunderbolt / Thunder
    -Body Slam
    -Confuse Ray

    Confusion that you can't switch out from, powerful Blizzards with freeze haxing, immunity to freeze haxing, Electric coverage for waters (Thunder is riskier but if it hits, Lapras usually wins over other Waters), paraslam, and lots of bulk. Definitely one of the better mons.

    Alakazam
    -Psychic
    -Reflect
    -Thunder Wave
    -Recover

    Good old fashioned Reflect Zam, an obnoxious pain for anything to break. This I think is possibly more worth looking at than Chansey.

    Nidoqueen
    -Earthquake
    -Blizzard
    -Thunder
    -Body Slam

    All grounds are pretty awful, but if you want to counter Electrics, this is your best bet as it not only beats Zap/Jolt/Raichu/Trode, it has a small chance of haxing past most everything else. No strategy here besides spam attacks, pray for crits in matchups like Lapras or Alakazam, or throw out Blizzards for any matchup a crit can't win for you for a possible freeze-hax win. For Raichu, use Body Slam first, Earthquake will always KO afterwards and paraslam prevents crit Surfs from letting Raichu win.

    Edit: Also, no disagreement with any of the bans so far.
     
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  6. Eseque

    Eseque Host Emeritus

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    Credits to Ch01W0n5h1n:
    Exeggutor
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    IVs: 2 Atk
    - Substitute
    - Toxic
    - Leech Seed
    - Rest
    Toxic + Leech Seed glitch and Substitute blocking Toxic means this set gets around Rest + Toxic Chansey (or other Rest + Toxic users).

    Edit about Leer: Defense Curl Chansey
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2017
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  7. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    here is my ultimate gem

    Vaporeon
    - Rest
    - Acid Armor / Toxic / Ice Beam / Sand Attack / Haze / Hydro Pump
    - Acid Armor / Toxic / Ice Beam / Sand Attack / Haze / Hydro Pump
    - Acid Armor / Toxic / Ice Beam / Sand Attack / Haze / Hydro Pump

    Sooo that's a lot of moves slashed there, for good reason. All of these options allow Vaporeon to beat certain matchups easily. Matchups vs some sets under hide tag.

    Tauros's best line against this is fishing for Blizz freeze until he's about to die at which point he has to fish for a beam crit (Vap is 100% KOd by a beam crit after a Blizzard), and Hydro Pump has a 97.6% chance of 2HKO, while Acid Armor allows Vaporeon to win bar crits if Tauros tries Leering.

    Alakazam is fairly threatening, but Sand Attack + Rest could be enough to PP stall its Psychics, Toxic kills it if you can dodge drops for long enough, and you can also just fish for an IB freeze. Haze can be used to clear your Spc drops and help in enduring the full wave of 16 Psychics.

    Snorlax is hard countered by Acid Armor and has to fish for freeze.

    Chansey's TBolt is only a 1.6% 3HKO, so any of of Tox/IB/SA/Haze should comfortably allow you to PP stall or win through poison or freeze against any set.

    That Exeggutor set gets its seeds cleared by Haze and its Toxics turned into normal poison which Vap can eventually rest off if absolutely necessary, so I'm almost positive Haze+Rest Vap is enough to PP stall that one. Egg also doesn't like taking Ice Beam or getting Sand Attacked, although I'm fairly certain he can take those two and win with average luck.

    Lapras TBolt misses the 3HKO even with max rolls (27-32), and Toxic takes it down, though freeze+confusion hax make it fairly likely to lose if you attempt a PP stall on him. Starmie is the same (27.9-32.8%), but it has yellow magic instead of confusion, and in addition of losing to Tox you can also attempt to freeze it. PP stalling it does seem easier than PP stalling Lapras, but you do have to watch out for Psychic (which 5HKOs, but drops can quickly snowball it out of control if you don't have Haze).

    Gengar's TBolt on the other hand is a 3HKO which means you need Sand-Attack or Ice Beam luck to win that one, and it's Vap's biggest counter alongside Electrics it seems. But I don't think Gengar and Electrics are that great.



    Some other stuff: Screech would be cool but its users are complete ass and are 2HKOd by every Psychic running around except for **maybe** Persian which can use it as pseudo-Swords Dance.

    Some other interesting statuppers: Almost none that can live three hits from any special attacker, lol. But depending on which Rest tanks become most popular I'm almost positive we can find one statupper that just beats em all. Charizard is looking like one of the more appealing ones for now with SD Beam.
     
  8. Eseque

    Eseque Host Emeritus

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    I know it is a minor complaint, but Sand-Attack is banned.
     
  9. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    OH I missed that Accuracy clause

    IDK I'm not sure it's any more hax reliant than Ice Beam freeze fishing or Psychic Drop wars or "just try the beam crit" bull kinda things, I feel like we could allow it - it's definitely not broken like wrap or sleep moves.
     
  10. Eseque

    Eseque Host Emeritus

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    ANNOUNCEMENT: I am making a poll on accuracy-lowering moves. This poll will end at the beginning of July, EDT.
     
  11. Eseque

    Eseque Host Emeritus

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    Snorlax
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    IVs: 2 Atk
    - Amnesia
    - Thunder
    - Reflect
    - Rest

    This beats nearly everything not named Exeggutor. Credits to RBY IS BROKEN.
     
  12. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    You forgot about Grounds which laugh at that set and IB Chansey which sits in all day and plays for a freeze.

    Presuming the strategy is Reflect > Amnesia > Thunder spam, Leer Tauros has about a bit over a 50/50 chance of winning as Thunder doesn't quite reliably 2HKO, and has about a 49% chance to actually hit both Thunders it needs to KO Tauros before Tauros KOs first. This also is assuming Tauros doesn't crit.

    Lapras also has a shot at winning with Blizzard > Confuse Ray > Blizzard Spam or Confuse Ray > Blizzard Spam. Blizzard + crit Blizzard (or 4 more Blizzards vs. +2 Lax) or a freeze lets Lapras win, and confusion hax can give Lapras the turns it needs to pull it off.

    IB Amnesialax eventually just freezes and wins.

    SD Vic can boost up to +4, smack twice with Razor Leaf, then finish it off with Hyper Beam.

    Raticate also wins, Super Fang > Body Slam > Hyper Beam will KO before spamming Thunder does, and if Reflect is set up turn 1, Super Fang > Super Fang > Body Slam > Hyper Beam will still KO Snorlax before being able to KO back.

    Edit: Hitmonlee is another one, HJK 2HKOs, 4HKOs through Reflect, crit OHKOs, and can be boosted with Meditate, and Snorlax needs 3 Thunders to KO first.
     
  13. Eseque

    Eseque Host Emeritus

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    I don't know about the others, but based on some testing I had done with RBY IS BROKEN, none of Tauros, Lapras, or Chansey reliably beat it. Chansey gets paralyzed and eventually dies, and Tauros and Lapras are RNG fests.
     
  14. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Chansey and Tauros are RNG-fests in their favor though, Snorlax's odds of winning are worse than theirs.

    Both Chansey and Snorlax are reliant on status to win. Both have a 10% chance to inflict their status. Snorlax moves second and only has a 70% chance of actually hitting in the first place, while Chansey has a 99.6% chance. Snorlax also requires 3 turns of setup before even being capable of breaking Chansey, while Chansey can fire off Ice Beams immediately. Once Chansey is paralyzed, Snorlax hasn't even won yet as it is dependent on full paralysis and Thunder not missing to actually break Chansey, while Chansey can find yet more openings to fire off Ice Beams.

    Technically, yes, they don't reliably beat Snorlax, but I can say the same thing regarding Nidoqueen, which can hax-win against pretty much anything and thus can't be reliably beaten (except maybe Articuno), just has bad odds of doing so.

    Lapras though, I haven't estimated its odds but I expect Snorlax to have the advantage here, it's just that Lapras isn't a guaranteed win for Snorlax even with that set.

    Edit: Adjustment to Nidoqueen, not sure how relevant Raichu would ever be, so swapping Body Slam for Tail Whip isn't a bad idea as that guarantees Thorlax has 0 chance of winning (-4 Reflect Snorlax gets 3HKO'd by EQ) since you are no longer reliant on a freeze or 2 crit EQs in a row.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
  15. Eseque

    Eseque Host Emeritus

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    Thanks to Enigami, we now have challenge, teambuilder, and ladder options on the Pokémon Perfect Pokémon Showdown server!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2017
  16. Eseque

    Eseque Host Emeritus

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    ANNOUNCEMENT: The poll on accuracy-lowering move is now over. By a 4-1 vote, they are not unbanned.
     
  17. Mantishuffle

    Mantishuffle Just another gen wunner. Member

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    I don't think there should be a self-KO clause.

    Consider that the fastest users Electrode and Gengar have low attack. With that and their low average damage output with Thunderbolt in the case of both and Nightshade or any other move in the case of Gengar it can be difficult to get the opponent in KO range without them crippling the attacker or boosting their defense, unless of course the Exploder has a favorable matchup in which case the exploder deserves the win anyway. Granted Electrode can use Screech but it still doesn't guarantee a KO on the bulkiest of Pokémon like Snorlax and Slowbro, or anything with a boosting move like Acid Armor or Barrier. Screech can also miss so it can be a turn wasted that also gives the booster the edge.

    Of the remaining exploders Snorlax, Exeggutor, and maybe Golem (normal resistance) will be the only ones to be used. I doubt anyone would use Muk or Weezing unless they fear Toxic. Cloyster has low special and can't inflict a status other than freeze. And Onix sucks.

    But I could see Snorlax being an issue. It's Selfdestruct is the strongest move in the game bar OHKO moves after all. With its bulk and ease of putting something to KO range in 1 turn this could be devastating. Bulky Pokémon with defense boosting moves and recovery could do the trick especially if they're faster. Since sets such as these can be effective against many other Pokémon but still lose to faster more offensive threats that can lose to Snorlax we get sort of a rock, paper, scissors thing going on. Defense will be the way do go since very few Pokémon can 2hKO Snorlax without a critical hit, and those that can 2hKO can lose to stall or faster offensive threats. With its power and PP stall potential, and since in standard play it is considered to be a soft check to everything, Snorlax will probably be a bit of a centralizing force whether self-KO clause is there or not.

    I think without self-KO clause the game would be a little more about the matchup, sort of like anticipating what the opponent will use. If there is something too centralizing than this would be awful for laddering (it's 1v1 c'mon now). I mean you only have one Pokémon so if the matchup is close than luck will most likely determine the game just like with self-KO clause active. But with or without there is still room for variety and whether we want stall tactics + stall breaking tactics or the same but with (possibly a bit centralizing) Explosion in the mix is for us to decide.

    By the way sleep moves are allowed in future generations but since there are no hold items or abilities that prevent sleep, and with 1 to 7 turns of inactivity I understand and agree with the ban. However there is no self-KO clause, but I don't like to use that as my primary argument because those are other gens, not RBY. As for wrap it could be an easy way of beating Snorlax, but also an easy way of beating anything else that is slower or incapable of slowing down the user. Also adds RNG but it's RBY.

    Just my thoughts. 1v1 seems fun because a bunch of games can be played quickly but definitely not something to be taken as seriously as OU or LC in my opinion.
     
  18. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    Thing about boom is that Boom mons become broken if the boom user actually wins. There's close to no reason for not sending in your Boom/Slam/EQ/Beam (or similar) Snorlax and just hoping to win the tie with opposing Snorlaxes while beating pretty much everything else just because Boom kills everything.
     
  19. Eseque

    Eseque Host Emeritus

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    I second what The Idiot Ninja said. Self-KO Clause is necessary for a healthy metagame.
     
  20. Ch01W0n5h1n

    Ch01W0n5h1n Member

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    Alright so I played some Matches vs Snaite and Enigami and I´m gonna post some of the sets I´ve been playing with so far:

    Persian

    Slash
    Screech
    Hyper Beam
    Bite

    Slash is p much Self Explaining, Persians Signature Move, and due to it´s ability to break through Reflect, one of the Reasons to actually consider Persian.

    Screech and Hyper Beam helps it winning versus things such as Starmie, which it 1hkos after setting up 2 Screeches (13.4 Percent to 1hko after one Screech) via Hyper Beam, thus winning as long as it wins either a Speedtie or isn´t Parad (or doesn´t get a Special Drop while Star uses Psychic).
    It also helps it getting around things such as Counter on Lax and Chansey (and Chansey in General).

    Bite Helps it Flinching Stalllax and thus putting it in Slash Range after it Rests, which results in eventually winning the Matchup after some time. (and at least gives it a Chance to win via Flinches in General).

    Other than that, Bubble Beam is an option if you want something versus Golem and Rhydon, and Thunderbolt if you want to hit Slowbro and Cloyster hard and as soon as possible, all those option at the cost of another Matchup though.

    That being said, it usually just works vs very Defensive sets, so you shouldn´t consider it outside of that, as Golem and Rhydon seem to be rare sights.


    Victreebel

    Razor Leaf
    Stun Spore
    Hyper Beam
    Swords Dance

    The Natural Enemy of Slowbro. It´s Poison Type can come in Handy versus Defensive Toxic Mons too, allowing it to have a decent Chance to win versus said Mons. Other than that, it has to relly on Good Matchups or Paralyzis (Swords Dance allows it to outspeed other Paralyzed Mons, so a Zam would usually not Paralyzise it).

    Its Worst Matchup is Zapdos, and it doesnt enjoy taking a Psychic/Blizz from Star or Blizzard from Lapras either (I have yet to mention Alakazam again).


    Slowbro

    Ice Beam
    Thunder Wave
    Amnesia
    Rest

    The Middle Ground between Psychic and Surf Slowbro. As with any Ice Move Spamming Mon, the freeze is another Win Condition outside of hitting for Super Effective Damage or straight up sweeping via Amnesia.
    It doesnt enjoy facing Victreebel, Tbolt Star, Tbolt Lap, Tbolt/Thunder Lax and Zapdos, but outside of Zapdos and Victreebel, it doesn´t straight up lose vs any of them (ignoring the first freeze attempt).


    Snorlax

    Ice Beam
    Body Slam
    Rest
    Amnesia

    Here a mon that doesn´t really have a bad Matchup outside of Tauros and Bite Persian (and well, Standard Ou Laxs). Body Slam helps it versus Waters, and is useful against non Reflecting/Curling/Growling Mons in general, Ice Beam vs Flying, Ground and Grass Types (and again, Ice Beams secondary Chance).
    It is overall a very solid Mon, IMO one of the best Choices you can make in this Tier if you want to be sure (Reflect Ice Beam Lax is solid too, but Lap could be troubling here).
     
  21. Mantishuffle

    Mantishuffle Just another gen wunner. Member

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    I don't think every exploder becomes broken. Electrode and Gengar have their low stats. The poison types and Onix are pretty bad, but Snorlax is definitely a problem.

    Yeah I could see Explosion being unhealthy. The game would be more offensive but Snorlax would be too centralizing. Really self-KO clause is there because of Snorlax. Still, it doesn't hurt to talk about these things. Besides I still think there are sets to deal with Snorlax with Selfdestruct that can also handle other threats.

    Since this is gen 1 we have to account for the lack of protections that exist in future gens like abilities, hold items, and 3 other types so 1v1 here will be different. If only the user fainted after breaking a Substitute with Explosion!

    I haven't played so what seems to be relevant? The Snorlax set mentioned here seems pretty solid with PP stall potential. Sandslash with Swords Dance beats it. Pokémon that can tank Thunder could try to stall it out or freeze it. Seems to me like the game is about finding a set that can at least stall most targets if it cannot beat them outright. Then there is always luck.

    Ch01W0n5h1n beat me to posting the Victreebel set!
     
  22. EvanRBY

    EvanRBY Member

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    Snorlax (ThunderLax)

    -thunder
    -amnesia
    -hyperbeam
    -rest


    beats everything that isn't Goldon or glitched tox/leech seed eggs
    (RBY IS BROKEN is my alt)
     
  23. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    ...

    Didn't even bother reading the thread I see.
    There are multiple things that can beat Thorlax that isn't goldon or leech seed.
     
  24. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    HyperBeam > Reflect on Thorlax does make a bunch of these matchups better for Lax to be fair.
     
  25. EvanRBY

    EvanRBY Member

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    hyperbeam beats leer tauros and victreebel

    raticate and hitmonlee do win, but who is actually bringing those? they lose to so much

    and ice beam lax would win, but i feel like ice beam lax loses to a lot
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  26. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Snorlax needs 3 turns to KO Tauros ands Victreebel using HB > recharge > HB, which means:

    Tauros uses Leer
    Tauros uses Body Slam (179-211 damage)
    Tauros uses Hyper Beam (314-370 damage)
    Total damage: 493 - 581 (Snorlax's HP is 523), about 2/3 chance of KO (guaranted KO if Body Slam crit), meaning Snorlax generally loses that matchup.

    Victreebel uses Razor Leaf (151-178)
    Victreebel uses Razor Leaf (151-178)
    Victreebel uses Hyper Beam (218-257)
    Total damage: 520 - 613 (Snorlax's HP is 523), just about guaranteed KO, meaning Snorlax almost always loses.

    Oops, calc'd that with -1 Snorlax (from calcing Leer Tauros), nevermind HB Lax wins that. If that Snorlax set became standard however, Vic could easily start running Reflect.

    Counter Nidoqueen (something I feel is a strong option for 4th move because she needs it for the Persian matchup) beats it too. Screech Persian has a chance to beat it with Screech > Screech > HB, but is dependent on Snorlax missing Thunder so that Thorlax does have the matchup advantage there.

    Additionally, Ice Beam Chansey, particularly Defense Curl / Reflect Chansey, has the advantage as I mentioned further up the thread.

    I'm sure I could find a few more too, so no that set is hardly a "beats everything that isn't Goldon or glitched tox/leech seed eggs"
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  27. Eseque

    Eseque Host Emeritus

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    Also, that set already is the standard and we already had a discussion where someone (me) said Thorlax was only beat by Exeggutor and then other people said other things it was beaten by.
     
  28. EvanRBY

    EvanRBY Member

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    Thorlax deals 40% with thunder to a para'd chansey, essentially a less accurate bslam. Chansey isn't exactly safe against it
    And Tauros isn't a guarantee

    Thorlax is best lax set imo
    And I think it beats the widest range of likely matchups

    I'm not familiar with counter nidoqueen, how's it fair against other matchups, I feel like it gets beat by a lot of things
     
  29. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Thorlax needs 3 turns of Amnesia to deal that 40%, then needs a 70% accurate move to inflict a 10% status just for the chance to break Chansey, while Ice Beam Chansey can just spam 99.6% accurate Ice Beams from the beginning. Not good odds for Snorlax. Toxic Stall Chansey is a different story, it can't win through Toxic, Rest won't make Chansey faster after taking paralysis and as a last resort should Snorlax run out of Thunder PP it could try for a crit Hyper Beam.

    It being able to beat Tauros is relevant, but the odds favor Tauros considerably for Thorlax to match up poorly against it.

    Agreed on that HB Thorlax probably being its best set, but not some broken unbeatable thing, just strong.

    There is also a slim chance of beating Eggs, Hyper Beam > Recharge > Hyper Beam. Gives you 2 ~6% chance crits that have a 70% chance to KO Eggy, and if you crit and fail to KO with the initial HB the second one should finish it off. Haven't played it out, but there may be more chances for HB assuming ToxicSeed, while if Eggy goes for Psychic, Lax can't survive longer than 4 turns.

    Nidoqueen's pretty much an Electric hard-counter that has a small chance to hax past any matchup except Articuno, whereas Goldon has practically no chance in bad matchups.
     
  30. P5726

    P5726 Member

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    People are forgetting the obvious: Hypnosis + Dream Eater!!!

    Gengar and Hypno would be OP. Gengar is the fastest sleeper and Hypno has no weakness. Even Mewtwo and Mew would be at their mercy (especially at Hypno's), since they can be killed in 4/5 turns with Seismic Toss/Night Shade. In fact I doubt Mewtwo or Mew would even be that powerful if switches aren't allowed since they can't put anything to sleep. Anything which has a sleep move would be at a decisive advantage. Mewtwo or Mew can be paralyzed and revenge killed quite easily.
     
  31. Ch01W0n5h1n

    Ch01W0n5h1n Member

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    Sleepmoves are prohibited from being used in 1v1.
     

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