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RBY Orth's Theorymon- Rebalancing RBY

Discussion in 'Analysis and Research' started by Ortheore, Jul 18, 2017.

  1. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    In this thread I'm going to theorymon how I personally would modify all fully evolved pokemon to be viable in 1U, with that being defined as S-C rank. I'll be considering each change in isolation, so long as my modifications do not result in clones (e.g. Blastoise will have to be significantly different to Vaporeon). To speculate on all of my changes put together would just be too much theorymon so yeah. Also I will only consider typing, movepool and BST changes. I will not be modifying how any moves work or changing any mechanics. And lastly, I'll try to preserve a pokemon's competitive role as much as possible, based on both its 1U performance and its performance in lower tiers. I will not be considering whether it "makes sense" for a pokemon to be modified a certain way as I'll only care about competitive play.

    [​IMG] Venusaur: Grass/Poison-> Grass
    Venusaur isn't too far off being viable in 1U, with its biggest problems being its Poison typing and competition from Victreebel. Simply removing Venusaur's Poison typing addresses both of those, as it's now resistant to Ground and neutral to Psychic, meaning it actually has defensive utility which allows it to step out from the shadow of Victreebel. It's still far from dominating, as it has plenty of checks, is still vulnerable to Ice attacks and needs Swords Dance to threaten Special walls, but it's definitely viable for players seeking an alternative to Egg.

    [​IMG] Charizard: Fire/Flying-> Fire/Ground
    Base Speed 100->105

    Charizard is best known as a Fire type with SD/EQ to kinda scare off Rock types. Alternatively, you could look at it as something that uses SD+EQ while having STAB Fire Blast to scare off Egg. Unfortunately, it's handicapped by its terrible defensive typing, which leaves it BoltBeam weak. Switching its Flying type for a Ground type eliminates half of that weakness while reinforcing one of Charizard's defining characteristics, as it now receives STAB on EQ, as well as a TWave immunity to boot. I also decided to buff its base Speed by 5 as I wasn't quite satisfied by the typing change, and so I decided that being able to cleanly outspeed Zapdos would be a nice small buff that polishes things off nicely. Of course, Charizard still faces issues in that opposing Waters, especially Starmie are a problem, while its stats are nothing to write home about, but I think this change is a good starting point.

    [​IMG] Blastoise: Water->Water/Ground
    Base Special 85->115

    Ugh, Blastoise, a Water type as generic as they come. Not even remotely viable in 1U, it makes its name in 4U as a standard bulky water, switching in on Fire types and Nidoking and spamming Water/Ice coverage. Which is exactly what you'd expect most other Water types to do. Well, it learns EQ, which is kinda distinctive so I might as well play off that. Giving it a secondary Ground type gives it a distinctive niche in that it's a strong Electric check while also crushing GolDon. This leaves it struggling against opposing Waters and overall kind of weak, so I decided to address the latter problem by buffing its Special. A +30 buff is a little heavy-handed, but it doesn't tip the scales against opposing Waters, while I doubt it would be too powerful as the only attack that might fit that description is Hydro Pump, which is generally a pretty bad move.

    [​IMG]Butterfree: Bug/Flying->Bug/Psychic
    Base Speed 70->110
    Base Special 80->100
    Learns Pin Missile

    Butterfree is another pokemon that is far from viable in 1U. It's known for its access to dual powders and Psychic, but in 1U these are far from distinctive traits. Where I do see a potential edge is in its speed- I envisage buffed Butterfree to be a niche option that competes with Gengar for fastest sleep, trading Gengar's explosion for the ability to land sleep against pretty much anything. Swapping Butterfree's Flying type for Psychic was obvious, giving it immediate defensive utility and accentuating one of its defining characteristics. I want it to speed tie Gengar as I feel that opens up more interesting choices when teambuilding. The Special buff was simply so that it has the stats to not get immediately overpowered in 1U. And I decided it could learn Pin Missile as its 4th slot is practically useless, so I figured having something with which to deter opposing Psychic types that look to wake on it would be appreciated

    [​IMG] Beedrill: Bug/Poison->Bug
    Base Speed 75->135
    Base Attack 80->100

    Unquestionably one of the worst pokemon in the game, Beedrill is best known as the Bug type SDer that actually uses its STAB. It also gets double dance, which is also notable, while it also plays as something of a glass cannon. The first thing that goes is the Poison type, a massive handicap as it produces a Psychic weakness which negates the whole point of using STAB Bug attacks as you become vulnerable to Psychics rather than preying on them. This alone isn't enough to boost Beedrill into 1U, as its stats are simply too feeble to cut it. This creates a dilemma- you can preserve its role as a dual booster by buffing Special, which allows it to take on Psychics while leaving room for Agility to actually help its Speed. Alternatively you can go for the glass cannon approach, buffing its speed massively. I opted for the latter while also buffing its Attack, as I felt that the lack of high power STAB moves meant that even after an SD, its Attack wasn't cutting it. I suppose you could try to take a middle road option, but I feel that this option allows it to more easily slot into a clear cut role

    More to come including: Normal/Flying being used as a good defensive typing and Flying AIDS in the form of STAB Wrap from a base 121 Speed mon
     
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  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Violet Version already does this

    (Well it's not every Pokemon, but it's every Pokemon with a fairly unique niche besides Lapras. Part of the idea behind it was that it was a smaller pool of Pokemon so that it's easier to pick it up and learn. And it changes some mechanics)
     
  3. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Host Emeritus

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    I see this as super different from Violet, and I like it. Unlike Violet, this doesn't change any mechanics, and it has a very narrow focus (what's the minimum change that could be made to make a Pokemon viable, rather than revamping types, stats, AND complete movesets). I think Violet also tried to "make sense" but I don't remember. Violet also needs to be balanced altogether to form a cohesive meta, whereas this just asks in isolation, "What's the minimum change we could make to Blastoise, by itself, to make Blastoise, by itself, finally good in 1U?" and then moves on to say, "Okay ignore all that - what's the minimum change we could make to Charizard, by itself ..." etc, and that's a fun and fascinating series of questions.
     
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  4. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Fair enough, I just like how Violet turned out and I sorta don't see so much point to other projects asking about rebalancing the worse Pokemon, given that we already have Violet, RBY+, lower tiers, and so on... and yeah Violet for the most part is meant to "make sense"... on this note people should play Violet more and I'm down for some games of it if anyone's up for it (it's implemented on the PP server btw)
     
  5. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    I mean lower tiers don't really rebalance everything so much as they separate everything out, while violet has some mechanics changes and is restricted to certain pokemon. As for rby+, its changes are so heavy handed that it feels like learning a completely different game rather than simply playing a modded rby
     
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  6. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    I feel this is a project doomed to failure.

    By buffing weaker Pokemon to the point of being viable, you will inevitably reduce the effectiveness of the current OU Pokemon potentially to the point of some dropping below C rank. For example, if Raichu became strong enough to be used commonly, or strong Earthquake switch-ins like Gyarados and Tangela were buffed, then that could make Golem and Rhydon less viable due to the increase of Pokemon that exploit their 4x weakness. This also would make it very difficult to avoid the feeling of learning a completely different game, as some OU staples that rely on the current balance of OU could lose their value.

    Beyond that, Smogon's SM OU under our B = OU cutoff system for post RBY gens, with all of its Megas, varied Pokemon with a very wide range of abilities, moves, items, etc. only hits 68 Pokemon total, and you expect to somehow make all 80ish Pokemon fully viable in a game that easily centralizes itself to between 10-20 Pokemon.

    If the goal is "everything is usable" rather than "everything is viable" (as in try to push things more around the D-E rank range instead of A-C), then maybe it'd be something that could be accomplished. With that, you'd ideally have something that maintains the meta of OU (avoiding the 'feeling like learning a completely different game') while also allowing every fully evolved Pokemon to have its niche or gimmick so they aren't useless by default (like say Dewgong or Magmar).
     
  7. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Host Emeritus

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    I think (and I apologize if I'm misreading this) you're misinterpreting the project. This only considers buffing one Pokemon at a time. Gyarados *and* Tangela won't both be buffed at the same time. So you'd be considering a meta where 1U behaves the way it does now, but Gyarados (and only Gyarados!) gets a little better. Would Golem hate having a threatening Gyarados around in 1U? Yeah ... but would that really reduce Golem's usage? Gyarados won't be on every team, so probably not.

    As such, I don't see this as causing great ripples throughout the meta to reshape 1U in any truly significant way. Having one new decent Pokemon to use in 1U is not going to make 1U feel like a different game at all. The goal isn't either "everything is usable" or "everything is viable." The goal is "This ONE THING is now viable, isn't that kind of neat?"
     
  8. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Yeah Enigami I wasn't really meaning for this to lead to anything, I'm basically just dumping my thoughts on what could conceivably be cool ideas for modding the game. It's basically just ideas I find interesting is all. I'm well aware that buffing everything (and nerfing Mew/M2) would create a gigantic mess that would see some pokemon fail to make the cut in terms of viability- to make it work (and I definitely believe it could), it would take a lot of iterative playtesting. I personally don't really care to put all that time and effort in so this will just stay theoretical, and as I say in the OP, if I were to consider the secondary effects of my changes or consider all my changes in aggregate, that would just be too much theorymon to be meaningful imo.

    The really interesting point will be if I can think of distinct roles for every fully evolved pokemon in the game, especially given the level of redundancy present in some groups of pokemon (Waters lol)
     
  9. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    [​IMG] Pidgeot: Base Speed 91->121
    Learns Wrap

    Pidgeot finds itself in an awkward position, with both Dodrio and Fearow outclassing it. However it plays out in a distinctly different way in 6U, as it relies on its Speed to abuse Toxic and Substitute to turn the tables on its counters. Such a strategy couldn't work in 1U thanks to the existence of recovery users so I opted for a slightly different approach: Toxic + Wrap. I also buffed its speed so that it can make effective use of this combination. I actually considered nerfing its Attack as STAB Wrap combined with a base 121 crit rate could be problematic. Ultimately I see Pidgeot filling a role reminiscent of Dragonite- utterly obnoxious to play against, but not broken, as its typing, stats and coverage are all terrible.

    Edit: Although I think this is balanced, probably introducing something this cancerous is not a good idea. My secondary idea would be to stick to a massive attack buff (I'm thinking 80->125) and give it Body Slam. Pidgeot then hits like a truck, but I still think the lack of coverage and defensive shortcomings balances things

    Edit: I feel like Counter would be an interesting idea for a Normal/Flying. I'm also still not satisfied with my ideas here.



    [​IMG] Raticate: Base HP 55->95
    Base Defense 60->70
    Base Special 50->70

    Raticate finds itself in an awkward position- its stats suggest a thoroughly mediocre sweeper, but its niche is defined by its access to Super Fang, which turns it into a potent wallbreaker. Offensively, Super Fang compensates for its mediocre Attack, but its defences are among the worst in the game, with pokemon as frail as Persian managing to have significantly more bulk. So I decided the best course of action would be to buff Raticate’s bulk. This ensures that it functions more as a wallbreaker, as it isn’t as badly crippled by status and worn down by various attacks it might receive as it enters play. Of course, with base 97 speed it is still able to function as a sweeper if the opportunity arises, maintaining that mix of sweeping and wallbreaking potential.


    [​IMG] Fearow: Base HP 65->85
    Base Defense 65->80
    Learns Softboiled, Surf

    I initially wasn’t sure what to do with Fearow. I want to come up with distinct roles for every pokemon, and Fearow is basically a worse version of Dodrio, which will probably get buffed to a similar role to what it has now. So what about Fearow? Well in 3U Fearow is notable for being a really safe switch in to Venusaur, as it’s immune to paraSlam. It’s also immune to Earthquake. You know what, that’s enough to make for a pretty nifty wall in 1U. So I decided to buff its bulk and give it Softboiled. Although it’s meant to fill a defensive role, I still felt its offense was a bit lacking, so I figured Surf would give it decent coverage for getting around GolDon


    [​IMG] Arbok: Poison->Ground
    Base HP 60->110

    I kinda feel I’m being really liberal with adding Ground type. Oh well, it makes sense here, as Arbok is defined by its status as the only Wrapper that isn’t really bothered by Gengar thanks to Earthquake. Arbok has the tools to make waves in 1U, but its typing and stats hold it back. I decided that switching it to a Ground type for STAB on EQ both buffs its offensive power and eliminates its biggest weakness, while the HP buff ensures it’s not totally frail.

    [​IMG] Raichu: Base Attack 90->110
    Base Special 90->110
    Base Speed 100->110

    Raichu is nice and easy, since I don’t have to conjure up some sort of role in 1U for it; it already has an obvious one, it’s just really shit at it due to its bad stats. Speed buff enables it to speed tie Tauros, which is the minimum it needs imo, while +20 to both offenses make it hit a bit harder. 110 Attack is actually a lot for a mixed attacker, but I’m still not sure if it’s threatening enough.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
  10. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Arbok might be something of a problem with those stats. Glare + Wrap + STAB Earthquake + Thunder Wave immunity is a fairly fearsome package. Also, it's not the only Wrapper with Earthquake; Lickitung gets it too.
     
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  11. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Hmm you could be right. I guess the best way to deal with that would be to remove the HP buff, which would mean it's 2HKO'd by most super effective attacks. Alternatively, could add a second type to give it additional weaknesses, but if I'm trying to be minimalistic that's not exactly the way to achieve that
     
  12. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    [​IMG] Sandslash: Learns Glare
    I honestly think Sandslash has some pretty neat tools, and it's especially great against RaishSey which is always pretty sweet. However it has to deal with Egg being on pretty much every team and struggles with Waters, with Starmie in particular being its nemesis, due to its reliable recovery and the fact that the best thing Sandslash can do in that matchup is fish for a paraslam. Learning Glare patches that up and makes Sandslash an extremely potent threat in the process, however I think it's not too much as it's still dogged by its unremarkable stats.

    [​IMG] Nidoqueen: Poison/Ground->Ghost/Ground
    The Nidos are a tough pair, because it's often hard to separate them. In 1U they're practically indistinguishable, but in lower tiers Nidoking shines a little more than Nidoqueen purely because it's faster. Well, Nidoqueen is overall much more defensive, so it only makes sense to give it a more defensive role. Ghost/Ground immediately gives it excellent utility as a check to Normal types. I've held off on buffing its stats for now, but I suspect it'll need some sort of buff in that area as well

    Edit: Definitely needs a stat buff. At the very least increasing SPC from 75->90 seems good, ensuring that Tauros cannot 2HKO without a crit, and Lax IB usually doesn't 3HKO. It also mirrors Nidoking's changes which is nice, however more is probably needed.

    [​IMG] Nidoking: Poison/Ground->Ice/Ground
    Special 75->90

    The more offensive of the two Nidos the goal here is obviously to make the most of the impressive coverage the Nidos possess. Poison, of course, must go, as it just creates too many crippling weaknesses for Nidoking to find an opening. Ice/Ground is an extremely potent STAB combo and Nidoking seems like the ideal candidate for utilising it. I've also opted to buff its Special, as it's so pathetic currently that Nidoking can struggle even in favourable matchups. These buffs hopefully won't prove too much, as it still lacks raw power, especially physically, and it still can't spread status reliably.

    [​IMG] Clefable: Learns Lovely Kiss
    Attack 70->90

    Clefable is a pokemon that's capable of doing many different things, but it's sadly terrible at all of them. To me, Clefable has the most potential as an attacking status spreader, but is held back by its poor stats and its dependence on Sing to get sleep off. Lovely Kiss gives it a reliable sleep, while the buff to its Attack addresses its poor offenses.

    [​IMG] Ninetales: Fire->Fire/Electric
    Learns Thunderbolt, Thunder Wave

    Ninetales is perhaps best distinguished by having the least potential as a mixed attacker out of all the Fire types. So uh, yay for that? There's not really anything in its movepool that sticks out either. In any case, as with most Fire types, Water types are the bane of their existence. So what better way to address this than by giving it a full kit of Electric attacks? This would also give it a decent niche as a check to Zapdos as well, so there's that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
  13. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    I was reading the thread, and I have a question: your goal is to balance the meta by changing only pokémons, or are you thinking about other changes as well? (ex: move changes, type chart changes, etc.)
     
  14. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    From what he said before, just changing Pokemon. Otherwise it'd basically just be another variant like Violet Version or RBY+.


    Sandslash > Glare - I'd throw in Special 55->85/90 on top. Considering it already has an extremely strong STAB and Swords Dance with complete coverage and STILL is as low as it is, I think it needs more than just a 2.5x chance over Body Slam to paralyze stuff. I think Sandslash's biggest problem is its Special bulk. It dies in 2 hits to just about any strong Special Attack, which means even if it finds an opportunity to set up, it's just waiting to be haxed by a crit Alakazam Psychic or Tauros Blizzard. And if Sandslash doesn't set up, it's basically a less threatening Rhydon sans all the benefits of Rock-typing. However, with that big boost to Special, Special attackers no longer 2HKO'd except strong super effective attacks, allowing Sandslash some breathing room to actually threaten Glare or punch holes with +2 EQs.

    Nidoqueen > Ghost / Ground + Nidoking > Ice / Ground - Eh... I dunno. I think they'd work better the other way around. Blizzards and Ice Beams hurt a lot, and the most prominent Normal-type attackers, Tauros & Snorlax, very commonly run Ice coverage right now. Immunity to Normal-type attacks is gonna rely too much on predictions. Between the two, your Ghost / Ground Nidoqueen might have a niche but Ice / Ground Nidoking would be overall more tanky, which reverses their roles. I think Ghost is better suited to the offensive Nido (alongside some offensive stat buffs as needed), allowing Nidoking to leverage a pair of immunities to get in and do some damage while still contributing somewhat defensively while letting Nidoqueen be the more reliable tank. Plus, color-wise they'd fit better with your suggested typings swapped.

    Clefable > Lovely Kiss - Could maybe use Earthquake too. Clefable's niche I think is being a swiss Normal-type, and providing more tools to add to its unpredictability would help. Possibly could be extended further with Meditate/Growth?

    Ninetales > Fire / Electric + Thunderbolt + Thunder Wave - Incredible upgrade for it, letting it blow through Water-types with its newfound STAB and threatening paralysis on anything faster. Fire Blast + Fire Spin + Thunderbolt + Thunder Wave by itself, all STAB, looks pretty deadly. One issue though: Tauros is faster. Tauros has EQ. Tauros OHKOs. Due to this, Ninetales would need to put in work in the early game, since it has no chance whatsoever against Tauros.


    Got a couple of my own:

    Onix > HP 35->55, Attack 45->95, Special 30->45 - Basically just gave it Graveler's HP/Attack/Special. 70 Speed + Bind are huge advantages Onix has over the other FEs, it just can't leverage them against hitting like a wet noodle or dying to practically any Special attack. Grabbing some of Graveler's stats atleast makes it somewhat respectable as an attacker when not trying to abuse bind.

    Porygon > Bulk buffs - It already has a niche as a physical wall, all it needs is to be more reliable at it.
     
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  15. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    Yeah, I read it now. Interesting that I missed it twice, on the first and on the second post. But whatever xD

    Also, if the intention is to bring pokémon to C rank, here are the changes I'd do to Articuno based on the purposal of this thread:

    Articuno: learns Drill Peck

    Articuno is a poor mixed sweeper, as it relies on Hyper Beam and Double-Edge to hit with Physical moves (Sky Attack is an option, but its 2 turns limits its use). Drill Peck solves this problem, and helps Articuno to perform better against some of its checks, such as Chansey and Alakazam.
     
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  16. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    DarkCyborg it's pretty much only changing pokemon, not changing moves/mechanics. I think just restricting mods to pokemon appeals more to me because it's much easier to adapt to changes to pokemon, since they're easier to think of as discrete units, whereas moves and mechanics and the like have a much more broad reach.

    Enigami I think those are some interesting points regarding the Nidos. I disagree that Nidoking would be particularly tanky though, as Ice/Ground, while not having many relevant weaknesses, doesn't have many resistances either, with Electric being the only notable one. That might not matter if it's naturally really bulky but it isn't really. That is a fair point on Nidoqueen, come to think of it, should probably investigate the Tauros matchup, as it may lose to Blizzard, which isn't ideal given its supposed niche

    Regarding suggestions, these are all great ideas, I'll probably use them (and give credit) when I get to those pokemon
     
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  17. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Some more ideas:

    Dodrio > High Jump Kick - Improves Dodrio's role as a glass cannon by letting it actually do damage vs. Rocks, and also gets a stronger attack to threaten Normal-types with. Starts to actually look like an attractive pick.

    Hitmonlee > Speed 87->111+, Hyper Beam - It may need more help than that, but being faster than Tauros would make it a lot better as a late game sweeper. Also it's a fully evolved Pokemon, it's weird that it doesn't get Hyper Beam and Hyper Beam helps to sweep vs. Flying- and Psychic-type Pokemon.

    Pinsir > HP 65->85, Earthquake - Not having to use Submission for Rhydon and simultaneously covering Gengar is awesome. The HP injection heavily reduces the 2HKO chance from Zapdos' Drill Peck and helps keep Pinsir around a little longer.

    Ditto > Speed 48->145, HP 48->?, Thunder Wave, Recover, Reflect, Light Screen, Mirror Move, Self-Destruct - Not sure where it should be put HP-wise, but I figure Ditto REALLY needs some other moves besides Transform to be anything more than a trashmon (except maybe if you did something like give it 255 in every stat). 145 Speed ensures Ditto will get to Transform, paralyze the enemy, set up screens, Mirror Move or explode before the enemy moves. A Ditto user would still be extremely strongly encouraged to Transform, as it is otherwise extremely dependent on the opponent's actions or using its weak Self-Destruct to hurt anything.

    Edit: Ditto v2 > Speed 48->145, HP 48->200+, Ghost-typing - A more minimalist take on buffing Ditto. With Ghost-typing, it gains defensive value as a Normal-sponge, and I'd imagine a weird pink putty thing turning into a hostile doppelganger of you would be pretty eerie and somewhat fitting with Ghost-typing. Speed buff ensures it transforms and gains the opponent's Defense/Special ASAP, and HP buff should help to make up for taking a hit while having to Transform. Normal/Rock could also work too if you wanted to go with referencing Metal Powder, with Normal-resistance+Body Slam para immunity making it still a very safe switch in to Body Slams.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
  18. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Chansey-ish HP would be enough to make it interesting. Most things wouldn't be able to drop it below their own HP in the Transform turn. Recovery users could wall it, sure, but they'd be spending real PP and letting Ditto itself recover.

    Imposter Blissey is better than most Big Legends in later-gen hackmons, remember.
     
  19. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    [​IMG] Wigglytuff: Normal->Normal/Fighting
    Attack 70->90
    Learns Hi Jump Kick

    This may seem a little out of left field, but my idea here was that Wigglytuff is basically a worse version of Clefable but with a stronger Counter. Soooo, why not make the most of said Counter? By giving it a Fighting type, as well as the stats and moves to make use of it, it can put opposing Normals in tight spot- do they risk a switch-in eating a Counter, or do they stay in and potentially take a super effective HJK? This would probably be insanely obnoxious to play against tbh.

    [​IMG] Golbat: Poison/Flying->Psychic/Flying
    All base stats get increased by 15 (HP/ATK/DEF/SPC/SPE are now 90/95/85/90/105)
    Learns Psychic, Drill Peck, Razor Leaf

    Oh boy. Golbat. This is commonly considered the worst fully evolved pokemon in the game, and that potentially includes Ditto. There is very little it actually achieves, and what little it accomplishes is done far better by other Pokemon, which as far as I'm concerned, gives me license to be a little more liberal with my changes. So what is it less terrible at? Well, its typing gives it a Ground immunity and makes it a pretty strong check to Grass and Fighting types. So I guess we can expand on that? Psychic/Flying instantly makes it better and also unique, the BST increase I think is needed, giving it decent stats across the board, except for Special which, while now usable, is still thoroughly mediocre. Its new typing needs some STABs to go along with it, and I threw in Razor Leaf, which is fitting since Golbat's movepool is normally so barren that non-STAB Mega Drain becomes notable, so I decided it might as well get a move that's actually good.

    [​IMG] Vileplume: Grass/Poison->Grass
    Learns Razor Leaf, Softboiled

    Vileplume is basically a worse version of other Grass types. It has dual powders, like most other Grass types, but it's let down by its Poison typing and lack of Grass types' best trait- Razor Leaf (even if it's too slow to max out the crit rate). So obviously, those were the first things to address, but it was still a thoroughly mediocre Pokemon. So I added Softboiled, as I envisage it as a defensive pivot, capable of sponging attacks and spreading status, while not being a total liability offensively. That said, these buffs may not go far enough, idk

    [​IMG] Parasect: Bug/Grass->Bug/Psychic
    HP 60->90
    Learns Psychic, Twineedle

    Parasect is obviously not viable at all, thanks to its poor typing, mediocre base stats and woeful attacking options. In lower tiers though, it's surprisingly versatile. It has access to both sleep and paralysis, while it can pull its weight offensively by using either Growth or Swords Dance, despite its atrocious selection of attacks. Bug and Psychic complement each other well, and Twineedle and Psychic give it respectable STAB options which is something it desperately needs, and should combine well with its boosting moves. Lastly, I felt its BST was a bit poor, so a buff to HP should help balance things out.

    [​IMG] Venomoth: Bug/Poison->Psychic/Poison
    Attack 65->130
    Special 90->120
    Learns Sludge

    I really wasn't sure what to do with Venomoth. It's basically Butterfree with better stats and a different typing, and I'd rather not double up on concepts. So I decided to expand on its different typing by dropping Bug rather than Poison. Psychic/Poison is an interesting typing in that it's actually a neutral combination, but it's also almost completely devoid of any defensive utility, resisting Poison, Grass and Fighting, a useless combination of resistances if ever I saw one. So I decided to make Venomoth into a mixed attacking powerhouse that's also capable of dishing out status. I think I haven't gone too overboard here, as Sludge is less than inspiring as a STAB, it still has base 90 Speed and as mentioned, is of little use defensively
     
  20. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Member

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    Ok, I am gonna have a go at tiering these things. And give my thoughts.

    For me for projects like this, my goal would be for everything to be in about C or D rank.

    Venusaur: A-
    This would be a real bastard that you would just never really know how to deal with. Try to block sleep and a swords dance is likely to mess up whatever paralysed pokemon you have. Once it gets its sleep, theres nothing that is a safe switch into it. Potentially even higher..

    Coming back later to revise this. Got some serious pidgeot issues.. Probably drops it way down the tiers..

    Blastoise: A+
    Extremely powerful mixed attacker that's immune to thunderwave. Only really stopped by Starmie, and even that would be iffy if Starmie gets paralysed. Just needs a flick of damage on Exeggutor to be able to 2hko it. Slower than Venusaur though, so that could be a bit of a barrier.

    Charizard: D
    Definitely got some issues with Blastoise. Fragile and not frighteningly offensive, but definitely could carve out a niche for itself.

    Butterfree: B
    Very strong sleep option, great Eggy counter. Not much else to add..

    Beedrill: E
    Not really happy with this losing its poison typing. I'd rather you just gave it ridiculous stats.. But its still not gonna be up to much unfortunately..

    Pidgeot: S
    Please dont do this to us. Curious about the interaction between mirror move and wrap. If you say, EQ as I switch to pidgeot, then wrap before you attack can I use mirror move to EQ before you get another attack?

    Raticate: C?
    Not really sure with this one. I think it could be good, but I feel like it wouldnt be.

    Fearow: A-
    Again one I am iffy on, could be even higher, though it might be competing for a place with Pidgeot.. I could see it switching into Eggy often and using softboiled as eggy switches out. And it can wall a lot of Snorlaxes.

    Arbok: C
    I like this one. Come in on a thunderwave and wrap, should work well in tandem with a few glass cannons. Unfortunately crappy attack and weak to everything. But wrappers need to be.

    Raichu: A-
    Fast, CHes all the time, 2hkos most things. Fortunately gets a bit of 4mss, but otherwise a replacement for Tauros? On second thought, it's gonna have Blastoise issues. So I'm bringing it back to A- from A+.

    Sandslash: D
    I like this change too. Does everything it needs to without being overly flashy. But there's a bit of inflation here that probably costs him.

    Nidoqueen: B
    The return of Surf Lax? Mostly this high because of the threat of Pidgeot.

    Nidoking: D
    Definitely usable, a little outshone by Blastoise and Nidoqueen though.

    For the Nidos I think you coulda kept the poison typing. Maybe just a big HP boost for one and a big special boost for the other. Also lovely kiss is a sensible addition for one or the other that isnt too big a departure from tradition. Maybe Amnesia for the other one? Also you have boosted a lot of non psychic pokes, so maybe being a poison type isnt such a drawback in this meta..

    Clefable: D
    I think Clefable is already D, this isnt a huge change for him. But there has been a bit of inflation here, and he probably hasnt kept up with it.

    Ninetales: D
    This low because of Blastoise. I think I might have underrated Blastoise here. This would be a cool pokemon, I like it.

    Wigglytuff: E
    Maybe consider growth for Wigglytuff? And a little bit of a special boost.

    Golbat: A-
    Definitely hard to make this good, but.. This is too far. Can we at least keep the poison typing? Give it Sludge instead of drill peck? I mean it hasnt got a beak..

    Vileplume: C
    Could we keep the poison type again? I dont think its really gonna drop it much, it's still gonna take more from Blizzard from Blastoise than quake anyway. Definitely gonna struggle with Pidgeot though. Also wouldnt recover make more sense?

    Parasect: F or worse?
    Not really much to speak of here.. But Parasect is too cool for battling anyway.

    Venomoth: A-
    Full status options and packs a hell of a punch. I thought maybe ground type issues, but it learns megadrain too..

    So my team in this metagame at the moment is something like:
    Pidgeot:
    - Wrap
    - Double Edge
    - Mirror Move
    - HyperBeam

    Starmie
    - Thunder Wave
    - Surf
    - Thuderbolt
    - Recover

    Blastoise
    - Earthquake
    - Surf
    - HydroPump
    - Blizzard

    Venomoth
    - Sleep Powder
    - Stun Spore
    - Sludge
    - Psychic

    Fishlax
    Tauros

    Maybe Raichu rather than Tauros because Tauros is gonna give switches to Pidgeot.
     
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  21. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Venusaur isn't all that scary after a single SD due to its low Attack. Also, Birds.

    The tweaks are independent, not intended to be taken together.
    Not sure about S; still zero coverage outside of STAB and no single-turn Flying STAB stronger than 35 BP. Definitely A though. Letting Zam outspeed it would make it less centralising.

    I'm not sure if "can't move" resets the Mirror Move. Switching definitely does.
     
  22. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    AgiliWrap is also an option for Pidgeot, it can surely outspeed Zam with that (however, a setup turn would be be needed).

    That said, probably Rocks and mainly Gengar would prevent Pidgeot to become S rank, since Pidgeot's moveset is limited to Normal and (poor) Flying-type moves.

    ____________

    Interesting thing is that most people who try to make balance changes to RBY set Butterfree as Bug/Psychic. In my changes, I left it as Bug/Flying and give Gust some power and Flying-type (through Ortheore's way of rebalance, that would be giving Butterfree Drill Peck). In this case, Venomoth is the Bug/Psychic guy and Scyther becomes Bug/Normal.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
  23. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Which would give it a weakness. With 121 Speed it's a nightmare to play around, because even if a Pokemon beats Pidgeot and gets a double-switch on it, the bird can still Wrap-switch out unless it's Jolteon, Aerodactyl, Mewtwo or Electrode.
     
  24. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    Beedrill would outspeed it as well, if all the changes on this thread were applied at the same time. But that doesn't mean a lot, as Beedrill does not OHKOes Pidgeot unless at +4 ATK.

    Speaking of Aerodactyl: learns Rock Slide and Drill Peck. Run to the hills xD
     
  25. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    I'd suggest also giving Earthquake to cover Rock/Grounds; it doesn't hit nearly as hard as Tauros between the lower BP of its STABs compared to Body Slam, the lack of secondary effects and the lack of STAB on Hyper Beam, so giving it full coverage isn't particularly game-breaking.
     
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  26. Lilyhollow

    Lilyhollow Member

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    Ok I'm randomly popping in because this is fun to me and I have some experience with this kind of stuff, though not in the exact same context :p
    • You can just give Nidoqueen Recover/Softboiled and she'd be a great anti-electric. It's a pretty rational change I think.
    • Ortheore's Butterfree I think would be good for sure
    • Aerodactyl with just Rock Slide and Drill Peck sounds like it would be okay. With Earthquake added I feel like that's a new S tier? Idk.
    • I feel like just giving Golduck Water/Ghost type could be enough to make it at least kind of decent? Like it wants more but maybe that's enough to make it okay?
    • How does Persian work out in Stadium? Could you not just give her Hypnosis and leave it at that?
    Um, that's all I've got. This is all assuming changes are made in a vacuum of course.

    Also, if there is a way to change my username that would be very appreciated!
     
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  27. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    The obvious comparison is to Tauros.

    - Speed: Aerodactyl outspeeds Tauros, Gengar, Starmie, Persian, Alakazam and Jolteon, plus speed-ties with other Aerodactyl
    - Speed: Aerodactyl's crit rate is 25.4% vs. 21.5%
    - STAB Rock Slide: Aerodactyl has a 3HKO on Cloyster and Lapras (Tauros only 4HKOs), 2HKO on Zapdos (Tauros only 3HKOs), and unlikely OHKO/guaranteed (89%) 2HKO on Articuno (Tauros only 4HKOs)
    - STAB Drill Peck: Aerodactyl has a guaranteed 2HKO on Exeggutor (Tauros only 3HKOs)

    - Normal typing: Tauros is immune to Body Slam paralysis (Aerodactyl is vulnerable to all forms of status)
    - Flying typing: Aerodactyl is weak to Ice and Electric - Chansey 2HKOs with Ice Beam and OHKOs from STAB aren't hugely uncommon (Lapras has 74 (67)% with Blizzard, Starmie has 90 (72)% with Hydro Pump and Zapdos has 46% with Tbolt); by contrast, Lapras has 28 (22)% to 2HKO Tauros and Starmie 56 (35)%
    - STAB Hyper Beam: Tauros has 98 (88)% to 2HKO Chansey, a guaranteed (89%) 3HKO on opposing Tauros and a guaranteed (88%) 4HKO on Slowbro; Aerodactyl can't 2HKO Chansey or 3HKO Tauros without a crit and has only 42 (37)% to 4HKO Slowbro (it does still 3HKO Starmie and 4HKO Snorlax, though)
    - Body Slam: Aerodactyl doesn't learn Body Slam and thus cannot inflict paralysis, while Tauros has STAB on it
    - Coverage: Aerodactyl has no moves that do better than an 8HKO against Golem and Rhydon, and only 3HKOs Jolteon and Gengar; Tauros 4HKOs the meta, 3HKOs all but Cloyster/Slowbro/Lapras/Snorlax (and can take Cloyster off that list by subbing in Thunderbolt) and 2HKOs Jolteon, Gengar, Rhydon and Golem


    Tauros is leagues in front, and even with Aero getting Earthquake (which is a 3HKO on Rhydon/Golem) it's still substantially better IMO. Aero does wall Normal/Ground coverage, but Body Slams can still paralyse it and most things can get around it one way or another. Without EQ Aero's Persian-level (flimsier, but has a couple of positive type matchups and better Speed), while with it it's more of an A or high B.
     
  28. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    [​IMG] Dugtrio
    Ground->Rock/Ground
    Attack 80->100

    Dugtrio is the odd one out when it comes to ground types- a glass cannon. It's for this reason that I thought it appropriate that it be Rock/Ground, a type combination that is as excellent offensively as it is atrocious defensively, giving it access to STAB RSlide, enabling it to deal with Flying types better. After all, Dug's defenses don't matter since it dies to almost everything, but its offensive output sure as hell does. However even then it's just too weak, so I buffed its Attack as well.

    [​IMG] Persian
    Lilyhollow's suggestion: Learns Hypnosis
    My thoughts:
    Attack 70->85

    Lilyhollow suggested Hypnosis which I think would definitely work to push Persian into viability, I just think it's a bit of a random change to be making tbh. I'm not saying it's a bad suggestion by any means, it just seems an odd one to me, which is why I haven't opted for it. Anyway, Persian is already pretty good and only really needs a small buff to become viable. I really want to give it more of an edge in the Tauros matchup, since I think being able to outpace and take on Tauros is Persian's biggest strength, but it's let down by its poor stats. I thought about buffing its bulk, but to me that undermines Persian's character. So I buffed its Attack instead. The goal with this attack buff was to 3HKO Lax with Slash- it technically isn't guaranteed, but it's pretty damn close. That said, this is a pretty big buff to its power so it might be a little much, idk.

    Edit: probably should've looked into things before calling the Hypnosis suggestion random

    [​IMG] Golduck
    Water->Water/Ghost
    (shoutout to Lilyhollow for type suggestion)
    Learns Mega Drain
    Sooo Lilyhollow suggested Water/Ghost for Golduck. I think it's a bit strange, but I think it really works out. Golduck becomes immune to the most popular physical attacking type in the game, forcing Tauros and Lax to use non-STAB EQ. That, combined with the fact that it rips Ground attackers to shreds, means it becomes really difficult to target with physical attacks. Of course, that doesn't exactly help it deal with its poor matchups against Electrics, Chansey and other Water types. That's where Mega Drain comes into play. After an Amnesia boost it isn't bad at wearing down opposing Waters, while the HP recovery offsets some of the damage it will take in the process.

    [​IMG] Primeape
    Fighting->Rock/Fighting
    Defense 60->80
    Special 60->80
    Speed 95->105
    Learns High Jump Kick

    Primeape is just sooo... unremarkable. It's fast, but not fast enough, frail, but not to the extreme that the Hitmons are, and of course it's a Fighting type with crap STAB. It also learns Thunderbolt for some reason. So I decided to give it a jumble of buffs that probably don't go far enough tbh. Learning HJK is a no-brainer for literally every Fighting type, given how bad their alternatives are. Rock typing gives it a Normal resistance, which is great if you can catch HBeam, while STAB Rock Slide is also useful as complementary coverage. To further complement that, it now outspeeds Zapdos. Yay! Then there's some basic buffs to its bulk, though it will remain frail. Also worth noting that Special is doubly relevant due to it probably wanting to run Tbolt for Star.

    [​IMG] Arcanine
    Fire->Fire/Normal
    Special 80->90

    Bloody hell I'm going to have a hard time with these mono-fires, since they're all so similar. Anyway, Arcanine lacks FSpin, which makes it a shit fire type, so I decided to spin it as a Normal type that happens to have a secondary Fire typing, with a small Special buff to make its FB more threatening. Between its paraslam immunity and STAB FB, Arc would actually make a pretty decent Lax response. It can play a bulky set or use Agility to try and sweep. I don't know, it's better though.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
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  29. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    Just a small correction: it speed-ties Jolteon. With EQ, Jolteon vs Aero would be nice, as both 2HKO each other.

    Aero has support moves like Agility to deal with paralysis, but it somewhat a waste of slot. Imo, Aero's speed will make difference against a weakened team (which is usually your goal before you sweep with Tauros), while other mons (such as Lax) can work in the mid game. Tauros would probably remain the beast it is today, but with this change on Aero (RS + DP + EQ), I think teams without Tauros could become viable in the meta.

    ________________

    I liked Primeape's changes, Arcanine sounds interesting as well. For Persian, I don't think Hypnosis would be necessary.

    For Dugtrio, it's fine, but tbh I dislike the typing due to the fact we already have 3 FE with this typing (Golem, Rhydon and Onix), while 2 of them are viable on standart game.

    Dugtrio outspeeds all Flying-types besides Aerodactyl, maybe it could deal with them offensively instead of defensively. I'd give it Ground/Ice-type + Blizzard/IB, with a buff on its Special.

    Dugtrio learns Rock Slide to deal with Articuno (which would resist/take neutral damage from its STAB moves), 2HKOing with 100 base ATK (and OHKOing on crit). Zapdos is probably the pokémon you want to beat with Dugtrio (as it is a fast Ground-type pokémon), and the match-up would depend of the buff on Dugtrio's Special. Ice-type also helps against Exeggutor, making Dugtrio the first Ground-type to have a favorable match against Grass-types.

    Water-types like Lapras, Starmie and Slowbro would give Dugtrio a hard time, specially if it is carrying Surf/Hydro Pump.

    _______

    Golduck should be Water/Flying and learn Drill Peck, because it is a duck and ducks can fly.
     
  30. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    It probably has something to do with the fact that Persian can have Hypnosis in all later generations (and indeed in RBY+Tradebacks).

    Durr. Dunno what was going through my head when I posted that.
     
  31. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    [​IMG] Poliwrath
    Learns High Jump Kick
    Water/Fighting->Ice/Fighting
    HP 90->110

    With Amnesia and Hypnosis, Poli has a lot of potential. Unfortunately that never goes anywhere because of its typing and poor base stats. I decided to make it Ice/Fighting as that's practically a straight upgrade, removing its Electric weakness and giving it a much better special STAB. Rather than drop Fighting type I decided Poli can learn HJK, since that's a pretty powerful STAB combo, even after you account for Starmie and Slowbro existing. Lastly, I decided its bulk could use a buff, as its STAB combo already gives it decent coverage, so bulk was the next area to target for a stat buff

    [​IMG] Machamp
    Learns High Jump Kick, Recover
    Special 65->85

    Machamp has always been a heavy hitter, one that takes plenty of hits and hopes to succeed by simply outdamaging the opponent. I decided it can learn Recover to complement this semi-bulky role it has. I don't think this will be too drastic as its typing is still bad and it is still possible to overwhelm it. HJK is a no-brainer for any Fighting type. And lastly I felt a Special increase would help a little to make it a little more difficult to overwhelm for special attackers

    [​IMG] Tentacruel
    Water/Poison->Water

    Although Tenta isn't really on the map in terms of fringe pokemon that could make some noise, it has some amazing tools at its disposal, so I really don't think it needs much of a push to become viable. In this case, removing Poison typing removes one of its biggest flaws and I think is sufficient to earn some usage.

    [​IMG] Rapidash
    Learns Razor Leaf
    Fire->Fire/Grass

    To be completely honest with you I ran dry on ideas for Dash. All these mono-Fires are too similar. I suppose the next best idea would be to give it SD rather than going in the Grass direction, but oh well. In any case, Fire/Grass is actually really awesome coverage, as it's pretty much only Dnite that resists the combo.

    Edit: Maybe SD is an alternate concept?

    [​IMG] Magneton
    Electric->Electric/Ice
    Learns Ice Beam

    Magneton is a bit of an oddity in that its speed is only middling but its defensive stats aren't terrible, whereas most Electrics tend to be fast frail sweepers. I felt the best way to capitalise on this was to give it an Ice type, giving it a BoltBeam resistance and excellent STAB coverage for itself
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
  32. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    [​IMG] Farfetch'd
    HP 52->77
    Attack 65->90
    Defense 55->80
    Special 58->83
    Speed 60->85
    Learns Hyper Beam, Drill Peck, Earthquake

    Farfetch'd never really had a chance did it? It was never going anywhere with such terrible stats, while its attacking options are no less dismal. It does however, have access to both Agility and Swords Dance, which means it could conceivable function as a dual dancing Normal, or just a regular SDer. I gave it a +25 buff to all base stats to address its poor stat issues, while some additional coverage options help ensure it's not terrible at attacking either

    [​IMG] Dodrio
    Learns High Jump Kick
    Special 60->90

    Dodrio is a pokemon that's interesting to me. I've never been a fan of it, as its frailty really limits its usefulness, while Drill Peck is actually rather niche imo, only hitting Egg, which creates problems in that I just don't think Dodrio is suited to early game. In any case, High Jump Kick gives it a niche over all other Normal types, while greatly mitigating its poor matchup against GolDon. I included a SPC buff to avoid the OHKO from Jynx as well, to give Drio a potential role as a Jynx anti-lead, since that's something I've heard of people using it for, I just don't think it's that great of an idea. Also credit to Enigami for suggesting HJK.

    [​IMG] Dewgong
    Defense 80->90
    Learns Hydro Pump, Light Screen
    EDIT: Learns Lovely Kiss, Thunder Wave (Enigami's suggestion)

    Well Dewgong is nothing remarkable, being inferior to Lapras in practically every way. The goal behind this set is to function as a tank that is excellent at playing for the freeze. The defense buff greatly improves Gong's matchup against Lax, while LScreen helps it tank the super effective attacks that would otherwise come its way. I threw in HPump to give it a hard-hitting STAB for if you want to run IB and still have some means of dealing with Jynx. The edited changes were added as even after my original changes, it was a pretty safe guess that Gong still wouldn't be very good. Dual status gives Gong a lot of flexibility and allows it to better distinguish itself from Lap. Thanks to Enigami for the suggestion

    [​IMG] Muk
    Poison->Poison/Normal

    Muk is defined by having Explosion and uhhh nothing else. It gets AArmor+MDrain, which allows it to fare decently against GolDon, something its closest comparison, Weezing, cannot claim. Anyway, I just got a bit lazy here and slapped a Normal type on it. Although it still suffers from Poison's defensive shortcomings, Muk immediately becomes an absolute powerhouse offensively as a result of these changes.

    [​IMG] Onix
    HP 35->55
    Attack 45->95
    Special 30->45

    Went with Enigami's suggestion- I had come up with my own, but it was pretty similar and throughout my own idea-generating process I was never really satisfied with what I came up with. Anyway, Onix is notable for being a Rock/Ground with ok speed and access to Bind, but it can't do anything because its stats are comically awful. Attack is the one that needed the increase the most, however the buff to its HP and Special gives it improved bulk as well- though it'll still be dying to most special attacks, at least it's not OHKO'd by Tauros Blizzard
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  33. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Also Gar (neutrally, but that's better than e.g. Persian can do and also has STAB behind it).
     
  34. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    That Dewgong is still terribad. Lapras still has notably superior physical bulk even after that buff, Lapras already had Hydro, and Dewgong isn't getting anywhere with buffing SpD in this meta (just ask Slowbro). For Dewgong to compete, it needs something else. I'd go with Lovely Kiss, Thunder Wave and +25 Attack myself. Dual status is something Jynx and Lapras cannot do, and Ice STAB with harder hitting Normal coverage should round it out offensively.
     
  35. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Hmmm yeah I'd say you're right. I will point out that Gong has much more raw power than unboosted Bro, so I think it's better at threatening physical attackers than Bro is. But yeah, overall I guess that's a minor point. I might edit in your suggestions, though I might keep my changes and just add dual status, which would actually give it a ton of flexibility
     
  36. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    [​IMG] Hypno
    Psychic->Psychic/Normal

    Hypno's a bit funny in that it's a pretty decent pokemon in its own right, but it does largely live in Egg's shadow- even though it usually does function differently to Egg, it's not as though Egg couldn't run similar sets if it wanted to. I decided to give it Psychic/Normal, which might be going a little crazy, but I think it works. It can now act as a weak mixed attacker, enabling it to bypass Jynx and Zam that might otherwise seek to block sleep. Also Meditate is worth noting here, though it's unclear whether or not it will be worth running.

    [​IMG] Kingler
    Water->Water/Grass

    Once there was a time where Kingler was among the least obscure fringe pokemon in 1U, however its popularity has waned over the years. It's honestly hard to put my finger on all of the reasons, but what is abundantly clear is that its extreme special frailty is its most gaping flaw. Unfortunately, that's not something that's terribly easy to address, due to its physical bulk being decent and Crabhammer making Special buffs risky. Instead I gave it Water/Grass typing, which nullifies its Electric weakness, making a ton of difference in terms of its survivability, while Grass type gives it much stronger defensive utility as an EQ switchin.

    [​IMG] Electrode
    Electric->Electric/Normal
    Attack 50->80
    Learns Ice Beam

    Electrode is a pokemon with a clearly defined niche that it should occupy, namely as an attacking lead, but its numerous crippling flaws render it totally unviable. It could also theoretically be a sweeper I guess, and my changes do make that more feasible, but I still think a lead is better. Anyway, its most notable move is Explosion, so I gave it a Normal typing and buffed its Attack to consolidate that niche. Unfortunately, its total lack of coverage totally undermines any attempt to make it work, hence it learns Ice Beam. With newfound coverage and speed, I could really see it working as an anti-lead, although its poor BST should still prevent it from dominating.

    [​IMG] Marowak
    Ground->Ice/Ground
    HP 60->80
    Attack 80->100
    Special 50->60
    Learns Amnesia

    Marowak is pretty clearly the worst fully evolved Ground type in the game. Even Onix, as bad as it is, has its decent speed and Bind going for it. Anyway, Marowak is notable for having decent Special coverage options, so I decided to lean into that, particularly its access to Blizzard, and give it an Ice/Ground typing. Then I realised I'd already gone down this path with Nidoking, and decided to use it as more of a bulky attacker to differentiate it. I decided to give it Amnesia to really differentiate it, however even with Amnesia it badly needed stats boosts in almost all areas. Consequently I decided to give it an array of stat buffs, making its Attack more relevant, while shoring up its bulk to enable it function, hopefully without overdoing things too much.

    [​IMG] Hitmonlee
    Speed 87->122
    Learns Hyper Beam

    I'm basically fully in agreement with Enigami here, speed and Hyper Beam are by far the best buffs to give it, but it may require more. Anyway, not much to say here, goal is to function as a fast Fighting sweeper, Hyper Beam is really valuable for dealing with Psychics (and Zap), especially Zam. I also gave it enough speed to outpace Zam, further mitigating that weakness. Still struggles with Psychic types and Gengar, while its defenses are also still non-existent.
     
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  37. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Maybe a slight improvement, but I'll note that Kingler takes huge piles of damage from neutral special attacks - which now includes Ice, and still includes Psychic. Tauros' Blizzard now does more damage than its Body Slam, for instance.

    Hypno's Hyper Beam thankfully isn't quite enough to OHKO Chansey at +1. Hyper Beam/Reflect/Meditate/Rest is still probably the best set, though.
     
  38. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    [​IMG] Hitmonchan
    Fighting->Electric/Fighting
    Special 35->140
    Learns High Jump Kick

    Hitmonchan is easily one of the worst pokemon in the game, thanks to its primary selling point (excellent special coverage to theoretically be a mixed attacker) is undermined by its abysmal Special. Firstly, as a Fighting type it obviously needs a better STAB, hence HJK. To capitalise on its coverage though, it needs more power. I first decided to give it an Electric STAB, which complements its Fighting coverage by hitting Star and Bro super effectively. However this obviously isn't enough, so I quadrupled its base Special stat. This is obviously a massive increase, but I don't think it's overboard- its special attacking options might have good coverage, but their power leaves a lot to be desired, while in terms of special bulk it's roughly on par with Zam, but it's slower, lacks recovery and possesses major weaknesses, so I'm not too concerned on that front.

    [​IMG] Lickitung
    Attack 55->70
    HP 90->140

    For something that isn't remotely viable, Tung has a LOT of things going for it, with its Normal typing, access to Swords Dance and adequate coverage. It has a clear role in the form of a bulky SD user, it's just unable to fulfill it due to its laughable stats. I decided to buff its Attack just a little so its power without boosts isn't totally negligible, but not too much to prevent SD from being overwhelming. The bigger area to address is its bulk in my opinion, which is why I buffed its HP, giving it bulk that's actually pretty good. The hope is that its poor speed prevents it from becoming too potent, however sets that drop HBeam for Rest would be worth keeping an eye on.

    [​IMG] Weezing
    Poison->Electric/Poison
    Special 85->125
    Learns Surf

    Weezing was a tough one in that Muk is pretty much better than it in most ways. The main point of differentiation is that Weezing's Special is better, so it can better make use of its special coverage options. So I decided to play into that, giving it a Special buff and a second STAB. Surf rounds out its coverage to handle GolDon. This should theoretically make Weezing tough to cover (I guess Chansey would work though), but defensively it's still badly lacking.

    [​IMG] Tangela
    Grass->Grass/Ice
    Learns Ice Beam

    I really felt like I was running out of ideas here- too many similar Grass types. Anyway, Tangela is notable for being a check to GolDon that has Bind, but is otherwise inferior to Exeggutor in every possible way. I would slap Recover and RLeaf on it and call it a day, but I already did that with Vileplume. However I haven't really taken advantage of Growth despite many Grass types learning it, so I decided a pokemon that could do that would be cool. Grass/Ice is a really cool combo that in RBY 1U doesn't come with too many downsides, as its coverage is pretty good, while the only weakness that really matters is that Tang is now weak to RSlide. Still, I think the positives greatly outweigh the negatives, as Ice Beam is always great, while MDrain, though weak, is still useful against most Ice resists.

    [​IMG] Kangaskhan
    Speed 90->105
    Normal->Normal/Ice

    Kangaskhan is most notable for being a Tauros-lite with Counter. Being almost entirely eclipsed by another pokemon is never a good start, but its poor special bulk further undermines it. Anyway, my goal here was to maximise the ways in which Khan can differentiate itself from Tauros. The Speed buff is obviously intended to give it a better matchup against Zap, which is nice for any would-be sweeper. The addition of an Ice typing generally helps it against a range of special attackers without giving it too many relevant weaknesses, while more specifically it neutralises Tauros Blizzard, forcing Tauros to try to play around Khan's Counter.

    Edit: M9M pointed out that this probably doesn't really differentiate it from Tauros, and arguably eclipses Tauros. Some ideas I have for addressing this are to swap Ice type for Water or undo the speed buff, and possibly give an Attack buff, or even giving it an additional move- Sharpen? All of those probably don't differentiate it much, but truly differentiating Khan would require fairly drastic changes
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
  39. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    This doesn't make Khan different from Tauros, it makes Khan muscle in on Tauros. Khan now has a stronger Blizzard than Tauros by quite a bit, outspeeds everything Tauros does, and still has a better movepool (Mega Kick, Counter). And while it does have weaknesses, they're rather rare ones in Fire/Fighting/Rock.

    If you want to make Khan differentiate itself from Tauros, boost its Attack so that Mega Kick + Hyper Beam (or even Mega Kick + Mega Kick) 2HKOs Tauros.
     
  40. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    I actually had a look into this and it requires a humongous attack buff- MKick+HBeam isn't guaranteed to 2HKO Tauros until Khan hits base 127 ATK. I looked into some smaller attack buffs and found that at 100 ATK MKick 2HKOs Chans, while at 105 it 3HKOs Lax and Lap and MKicks+HBeam secures a 3HKO on Bro. Just generally I find Mega Kick to be a questionable move, but maybe I need to give it a try on Khan myself, it could be overlooked I guess? After all, I don't think anyone uses it or recommends it.

    Also it's surprisingly awkward determining these things. Showdown's damage calc doesn't have info for Mega Kick despite including moves that deal no damage (priorities lmao) and there are no other physical base 120 moves, while Sulcalc doesn't allow you to modify pokemon info afaik. It's not hard working around this on PS calc, but it is a bit cumbersome. I suppose I could've just forked sulcalc or used my own fork of PS calc, but oh well. EDIT: I'm an idiot and overlooked the fact that you can tweak the moves as well. Oops

    Anyway, if the concern is Khan potentially eclipsing Tauros with these buffs, perhaps the best solution would be to undo the speed buff, since it's not really integral to what I've got in mind for Khan. Khan still gets better, but Zap outpacing it is a huge deal.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  41. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    [​IMG] Seadra
    Water->Water/Electric
    Learns Thunderbolt
    Special 95->110

    Seadra's not remotely viable in 1U, but it does have one interesting selling point- it's a Water type with access to Agility. This sets it up neatly for a role as a sweeper, but it's held back primarily by its coverage, however its BST also leaves something to be desired. I decided a little more raw power would suit it, while Water/Electric is a really cool typing and with Tbolt Seadra has really good coverage.

    [​IMG] Seaking
    Water->Water/Normal
    Learns Body Slam, Hydro Pump
    Special 80->100
    Defense 65->80

    Seaking happens to be the only other Water type with access to Agility, potentially giving it a similar role to Seadra. A key point of difference though, is that Seaking has a decent, though not great attack stat, though this is rendered irrelevant by having only non-STAB Normal attacks. Consequently, I decided it was appropriate to give it Normal typing, which allows it to make use of its Attack stat. Its movepool also needed some rounding out since it was lacking options I felt were important, while some stat buffs give it a bit more clout as a mixed attacker and also ensure that its bulk isn't as bad.

    [​IMG] Mr. Mime
    Psychic->Psychic/Electric
    Learns Growth, Recover

    I'm morbidly curious as to what was going through the mind of whoever designed this monstrosity. Anyway, the simplest way to describe Mime is as a broke man's Alakazam, but with Tbolt and no Recover. Obviously, I'm going to play into the Tbolt thing and give it an Electric typing and thus give it another STAB option. However that alone isn't enough to make Mime good. I decided to give it Growth and Recover, with the latter enabling it to compete with Zam and the former giving it a point of distinction. Growth and Recover could be a risky combo I guess, but I think Mime's mediocre BST balances it out.

    [​IMG] Scyther
    Learns Drill Peck, Twineedle
    Speed 105->125
    Special 55->95

    Scyther's defining flaws are its lack of coverage and its atrocious defensive typing. My changes don't really address these, but they might be enough to overcome those flaws? I added the best dual STABs available, though realistically Drill Peck is probably the only one that matters as it gives Scyther a tremendous amount of power, however Scyther still can't touch Rocks. The Special buff is obviously intended to help address its otherwise deficient special bulk. The Speed buff I think is the key point of the set, as there are no SDers that fast, and beating Zam and Star is pretty big. With all that said, I probably haven't gone far enough. DarkCyborg did mention that they'd make Scyther Bug/Normal, which is a cool idea and would probably make it powerful enough, but I feel like it might be too far tbh- unless you had a hard counter I could see it being extremely difficult to stop (e.g. +2 Scyther Hyper Beam vs. Snorlax: 450-529 (86 - 101.1%) -- 7.7% chance to OHKO).

    [​IMG] Electabuzz
    Electric->Electric/Psychic
    Attack 83->103
    Special 85->115
    Speed 105->115


    Buzz is known for being an Electric type with Psychic as a coverage option. So, obviously, it makes to make it into an Electric/Psychic. That obviously isn't enough though, because its stats are terrible. Consequently, I decided to give it a significant Special buff, as well as a buff to its speed to better contend in 1U. I also threw in an Attack buff, because Buzz does have a couple physical attacks that are notable, so I thought giving it an attack that allowed it to get some use out of them would be cool. Anyway, obviously the goal here is to function as a glass cannon sweeper and I think Buzz achieves it with this set. One other thing worth noting is that this buff really starts to overlap with Jolteon, which played into my decision to not make Buzz faster
     
  42. Ortheore

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    [​IMG] Magmar
    Fire->Fire/Psychic
    Learns Lovely Kiss
    Speed 93->118


    Magmar is pretty easily the worst Fire type in the game, however unlike most Fire types it has something distinctive- Psychic. The obvious decision then was to make it a Fire/Psychic type. But then what role would it have? Probably the best bet would be to act as an early game status spreader. So I decided to give it Lovely Kiss and enough speed to outpace Starmie, letting it function as a passable lead. One thing I will note here is that potential overlap with Jynx was a significant factor in my decision-making process. Its stats aren't much worse than Jynx's (the total is significantly better, but it's distributed in such a way that only physical attack/defense are superior), so with Lovely Kiss and the fact that I think it's easy to maneuver around EQ early game, it's very possible that Magmar could've encroached on Jynx's role.

    [​IMG] Pinsir
    My thoughts:
    Bug->Bug/Ghost
    Enigami's suggestion:
    HP 65->85
    Learns Earthquake


    Pinsir is a fairly potent attacking threat thanks to its impressive Attack and access to SD, however it is mostly let down by its poor defenses (although its physical bulk isn't bad against neutral attacks), though a lack of coverage also plays a role. My proposal gives it a very strong defensive niche and therefore obvious setup opportunities, as it now resists Normal+Ground attacks, making it a formidable check to physical attackers. Enigami's solution is also good, as the bulk buff is extremely valuable, while EQ neatly rounds out Pinsir's coverage by hitting GolDon and Gengar.

    [​IMG] Gyarados
    Learns Drill Peck

    Gyarados has an actual STAB attack, run for the hills! There's not much to say here, Gyarados' biggest flaw imo is its lack of STAB, which means that its physical attacking power feels lacking. This is probably a risky buff since Gyarados is just that strong, but I honestly feel like it could work- Gyarados still suffers from its dire Electric weakness, doesn't have much to offer defensively besides an EQ immunity and if Gyara drops BSlam to run DPeck then the Starmie matchup gets even worse.

    [​IMG] Ditto
    HP 48->218
    Speed 48->68
    Enigami's suggestion
    HP 48->200+
    Speed 48-> 145
    (I prefer 148 for consistency)
    Normal->Ghost

    Ditto yay!. This should be obvious. HP is Ditto's most important stat, so it really ought to be sky-high. I also gave it a bit of speed so it outpaces the most notable slow pokemon in the tier. This was discussed earlier by M9M and Enigami, and I think one thing that's fairly important to note is that with 200+ HP, Ditto's physical bulk is actually really good, however special attacks generally have enough raw power to deal decent chunks of damage to it. I don't really think it needs a Ghost typing, but I think it would get worn down enough to need some sort of Speed buff to help balance things out.

    [​IMG] Vaporeon
    Learns Hypnosis, Thunder Wave


    Vaporeon is fairly uninteresting imo. It's a very typical bulky Water, the only thing to really note is that it as really good overall stats. Anyway, a defining flaw of Vap's closest comparisons is their inability to reliably spread status, the other being that most of them lack coverage. Coverage is something I've addressed a fair bit, so I decided to try a different tack and give it dual status. Will this be enough to make Vap good? I have my doubts, it still has difficulty capitalising on any status effects due to its aforementioned lack of coverage. Oh well.
     
  43. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Another option with Vap would be to just give it Recover, making it THE WALL but fairly easily wallable in turn.

    Your Vap would basically be a higher-stats and differently-typed version of Hypno (actual Hypno, not your Hypno). That's not necessarily a bad thing, though.
     
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  44. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    [​IMG] Flareon
    Learns Stun Spore
    Defense 60->90

    The last of the bland fire types, I was again at a loss as to what to do with Flareon. I initially just had some straightforward buffs to its bulk, but changed my mind, as they probably wouldn't tip the scales. Flareon's a potent offensive threat, but its typing leaves it without much of a defensive niche, it's physically frail and it has difficulty managing bad matchups. I gave it Stun Spore to allow it to better support itself and its teammates, especially valuable given its struggles against pokemon like Starmie. I also gave it a buff to its physical defense so it's not quite as exploitable in that regard- Flareon is no longer in KO range after a Lax BSlam.

    [​IMG] Porygon
    HP 65->105
    Speed 40->45

    Enigami suggested just straightforward bulk buffs, and I'm inclined to agree. The goal behind this buff is to give it a little more breathing room handling physical attackers, allowing it to do stuff rather worrying about remaining at high HP. I also gave it a little speed buff to allow it to outpace Don and speed tie Golem, the idea being to broaden its horizons a little. Of course, Porygon's still mostly overshadowed by Chans so it's not as though it's going to take over anything.

    [​IMG] Omastar
    Learns Recover, Rock Slide

    I was at a bit of a loss with what to do with Oma. It's another bulky water, that happens to have a secondary Rock typing and good stats. Stats aren't the issue, there's not much to be done about its typing imo, since it's unambiguously a Water type, but Rock secondary is a key differentiating factor so I don't want to touch that, leaving just its movepool to be altered. I was originally going to give this status like I did with Vap, but I like M9M's suggestion in the above post- Recover should be sufficient to make it viable, but it's far from difficult to wall. Also gave it Rock Slide because I think it should learn it, even though I don't envisage it seeing actual use.

    [​IMG] Kabutops
    Learns Rock Slide
    HP 60->95

    Kabutops is mostly notable for being a poor man's version of Kingler, with the most notable draw being a Rock typing. Additionally, although its special bulk is poor, it's not nearly as bad as Kingler's. So the first order of business was to give Kabutops Rock Slide so it could actually use its Rock STAB. I then added a HP buff with the idea being for Kabutops to function as a bulkier version of Kingler. This specific HP buff ensures that Kabutops has a decent chance of living two Tauros EQs after it absorbs a HBeam

    [​IMG] Aerodactyl
    Learns Rock Slide, Drill Peck, Earthquake

    Aerodactyl is a pokemon torn between two extremes- its typing is fit for a defensive wall, its stats are those of a fearsome sweeper and its movepool ensures that no matter what, it'll always fail at what it attempts to do. Well, fixing its movepool is by far the most obvious solution to making Aero good and I liked M9M's suggestion of giving it EQ in addition to dual STAB. This immediately makes it a powerful sweeper, but I don't think it's unreasonably powerful. To belatedly tack on to the earlier discussion, I'm with M9M in thinking that the lack of Normal STAB prevents Aero from becoming too potent, at least, relative to Tauros, which is the benchmark for RBY sweepers. It's just so hard to top STAB HBeam.
     
  45. Ortheore

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    [​IMG] Articuno
    Learns Drill Peck

    Borrowed DarkCyborg's suggestion because I think it's a good one. My first thought was actually to give it Tbolt, but that's not terribly interesting with stuff like Star and Lap already existing. Drill Peck should go a long way in buffing Cuno and giving it a better shot at busting through things like Chansey and Zam

    [​IMG] Moltres
    Learns Thunderbolt

    Moltres has a lot in common with Articuno, and giving it Tbolt was a much less boring option than with Cuno, so that's what I've gone with. Tbolt obviously helps with the ever-problematic Water types, making Moltres just generally much tougher to wall.

    [​IMG] Dragonite
    Dragon/Flying->Dragon

    Dragonite is a tricky one, given how toxic AgiWrap can be (I've actually gone and edited the post where I made Pidgeot a fast Wrapper, since that was a bad idea). I didn't really want to give it an offensive buff, since it doesn't really need it, and its defining flaws has more to do with it being extremely one-dimensional and unreliable. I decided to remove the Flying typing, meaning that it won't suffer as badly if it whiffs a Wrap against an Ice type. This doesn't address Dragonite's one-dimensional nature, but instead makes it a little less unreliable. One thing worth noting is that it no longer switches in on GolDon as easily, evaporating its tiny defensive niche, while the Electric resistance it gains isn't as useful since most things with Electric moves have TWave to cripple it.

    [​IMG] Mewtwo
    Psychic->Poison
    No longer learns Recover
    HP 106->56
    Special 154->104

    Where to begin with Mewtwo? It's an unstoppable offensive force until it faces an opposing Mewtwo, at which point you realise it doesn't die either. Anyway, my intent here is for it to function as a fast, powerful Amnesia sweeper, but be much easier to KO. All of these nerfs impact its survivability in some way, as the stat nerfs directly decrease its bulk, losing Recover speaks for itself, and swapping to a Poison typing adds common weaknesses. Meanwhile, the Special decrease also reduces its power from the insane level it was before, and the loss of STAB Psychic also hampers its damage output. The funny thing is that this still might not be enough, as it's still blazing fast and its Special is still very decent, especially with Amnesia in its arsenal.

    [​IMG] Mew
    Psychic->Fire/Poison
    No longer learns Explosion or Selfdestruct

    In my limited experience playing Mewbers, I felt that Mew was broken to a more conventional degree, as opposed to Mewtwo's ludicrous power, so I've decided to be much more gentle in nerfing it. Still, although it lacks raw power, that's easily solved with a Swords Dance, and like Mewtwo, it's very good at not dying. Giving Mew Fire/Poison typing exposes major weaknesses that counteract this, making it harder to enter play and easier to KO, especially through Reflect, however it will still be a formidable wall in certain matchups (like anything that depends on BlizzBolt). I also removed its ability to boom, as its wallbreaking ability would otherwise have been a little ridiculous. The hope is that it can still function as a bulky setup sweeper, but not be too overwhelming
     

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