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RBY Orth's Theorymon- Rebalancing RBY

Discussion in 'Analysis and Research' started by Ortheore, Jul 18, 2017.

  1. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    In this thread I'm going to theorymon how I personally would modify all fully evolved pokemon to be viable in 1U, with that being defined as S-C rank. I'll be considering each change in isolation, so long as my modifications do not result in clones (e.g. Blastoise will have to be significantly different to Vaporeon). To speculate on all of my changes put together would just be too much theorymon so yeah. Also I will only consider typing, movepool and BST changes. I will not be modifying how any moves work or changing any mechanics. And lastly, I'll try to preserve a pokemon's competitive role as much as possible, based on both its 1U performance and its performance in lower tiers. I will not be considering whether it "makes sense" for a pokemon to be modified a certain way as I'll only care about competitive play.

    [​IMG] Venusaur: Grass/Poison-> Grass
    Venusaur isn't too far off being viable in 1U, with its biggest problems being its Poison typing and competition from Victreebel. Simply removing Venusaur's Poison typing addresses both of those, as it's now resistant to Ground and neutral to Psychic, meaning it actually has defensive utility which allows it to step out from the shadow of Victreebel. It's still far from dominating, as it has plenty of checks, is still vulnerable to Ice attacks and needs Swords Dance to threaten Special walls, but it's definitely viable for players seeking an alternative to Egg.

    [​IMG] Charizard: Fire/Flying-> Fire/Ground
    Base Speed 100->105

    Charizard is best known as a Fire type with SD/EQ to kinda scare off Rock types. Alternatively, you could look at it as something that uses SD+EQ while having STAB Fire Blast to scare off Egg. Unfortunately, it's handicapped by its terrible defensive typing, which leaves it BoltBeam weak. Switching its Flying type for a Ground type eliminates half of that weakness while reinforcing one of Charizard's defining characteristics, as it now receives STAB on EQ, as well as a TWave immunity to boot. I also decided to buff its base Speed by 5 as I wasn't quite satisfied by the typing change, and so I decided that being able to cleanly outspeed Zapdos would be a nice small buff that polishes things off nicely. Of course, Charizard still faces issues in that opposing Waters, especially Starmie are a problem, while its stats are nothing to write home about, but I think this change is a good starting point.

    [​IMG] Blastoise: Water->Water/Ground
    Base Special 85->115

    Ugh, Blastoise, a Water type as generic as they come. Not even remotely viable in 1U, it makes its name in 4U as a standard bulky water, switching in on Fire types and Nidoking and spamming Water/Ice coverage. Which is exactly what you'd expect most other Water types to do. Well, it learns EQ, which is kinda distinctive so I might as well play off that. Giving it a secondary Ground type gives it a distinctive niche in that it's a strong Electric check while also crushing GolDon. This leaves it struggling against opposing Waters and overall kind of weak, so I decided to address the latter problem by buffing its Special. A +30 buff is a little heavy-handed, but it doesn't tip the scales against opposing Waters, while I doubt it would be too powerful as the only attack that might fit that description is Hydro Pump, which is generally a pretty bad move.

    [​IMG]Butterfree: Bug/Flying->Bug/Psychic
    Base Speed 70->110
    Base Special 80->100
    Learns Pin Missile

    Butterfree is another pokemon that is far from viable in 1U. It's known for its access to dual powders and Psychic, but in 1U these are far from distinctive traits. Where I do see a potential edge is in its speed- I envisage buffed Butterfree to be a niche option that competes with Gengar for fastest sleep, trading Gengar's explosion for the ability to land sleep against pretty much anything. Swapping Butterfree's Flying type for Psychic was obvious, giving it immediate defensive utility and accentuating one of its defining characteristics. I want it to speed tie Gengar as I feel that opens up more interesting choices when teambuilding. The Special buff was simply so that it has the stats to not get immediately overpowered in 1U. And I decided it could learn Pin Missile as its 4th slot is practically useless, so I figured having something with which to deter opposing Psychic types that look to wake on it would be appreciated

    [​IMG] Beedrill: Bug/Poison->Bug
    Base Speed 75->135
    Base Attack 80->100

    Unquestionably one of the worst pokemon in the game, Beedrill is best known as the Bug type SDer that actually uses its STAB. It also gets double dance, which is also notable, while it also plays as something of a glass cannon. The first thing that goes is the Poison type, a massive handicap as it produces a Psychic weakness which negates the whole point of using STAB Bug attacks as you become vulnerable to Psychics rather than preying on them. This alone isn't enough to boost Beedrill into 1U, as its stats are simply too feeble to cut it. This creates a dilemma- you can preserve its role as a dual booster by buffing Special, which allows it to take on Psychics while leaving room for Agility to actually help its Speed. Alternatively you can go for the glass cannon approach, buffing its speed massively. I opted for the latter while also buffing its Attack, as I felt that the lack of high power STAB moves meant that even after an SD, its Attack wasn't cutting it. I suppose you could try to take a middle road option, but I feel that this option allows it to more easily slot into a clear cut role

    More to come including: Normal/Flying being used as a good defensive typing and Flying AIDS in the form of STAB Wrap from a base 121 Speed mon
     
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  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Violet Version already does this

    (Well it's not every Pokemon, but it's every Pokemon with a fairly unique niche besides Lapras. Part of the idea behind it was that it was a smaller pool of Pokemon so that it's easier to pick it up and learn. And it changes some mechanics)
     
  3. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Moderator

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    I see this as super different from Violet, and I like it. Unlike Violet, this doesn't change any mechanics, and it has a very narrow focus (what's the minimum change that could be made to make a Pokemon viable, rather than revamping types, stats, AND complete movesets). I think Violet also tried to "make sense" but I don't remember. Violet also needs to be balanced altogether to form a cohesive meta, whereas this just asks in isolation, "What's the minimum change we could make to Blastoise, by itself, to make Blastoise, by itself, finally good in 1U?" and then moves on to say, "Okay ignore all that - what's the minimum change we could make to Charizard, by itself ..." etc, and that's a fun and fascinating series of questions.
     
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  4. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Fair enough, I just like how Violet turned out and I sorta don't see so much point to other projects asking about rebalancing the worse Pokemon, given that we already have Violet, RBY+, lower tiers, and so on... and yeah Violet for the most part is meant to "make sense"... on this note people should play Violet more and I'm down for some games of it if anyone's up for it (it's implemented on the PP server btw)
     
  5. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I mean lower tiers don't really rebalance everything so much as they separate everything out, while violet has some mechanics changes and is restricted to certain pokemon. As for rby+, its changes are so heavy handed that it feels like learning a completely different game rather than simply playing a modded rby
     
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  6. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    I feel this is a project doomed to failure.

    By buffing weaker Pokemon to the point of being viable, you will inevitably reduce the effectiveness of the current OU Pokemon potentially to the point of some dropping below C rank. For example, if Raichu became strong enough to be used commonly, or strong Earthquake switch-ins like Gyarados and Tangela were buffed, then that could make Golem and Rhydon less viable due to the increase of Pokemon that exploit their 4x weakness. This also would make it very difficult to avoid the feeling of learning a completely different game, as some OU staples that rely on the current balance of OU could lose their value.

    Beyond that, Smogon's SM OU under our B = OU cutoff system for post RBY gens, with all of its Megas, varied Pokemon with a very wide range of abilities, moves, items, etc. only hits 68 Pokemon total, and you expect to somehow make all 80ish Pokemon fully viable in a game that easily centralizes itself to between 10-20 Pokemon.

    If the goal is "everything is usable" rather than "everything is viable" (as in try to push things more around the D-E rank range instead of A-C), then maybe it'd be something that could be accomplished. With that, you'd ideally have something that maintains the meta of OU (avoiding the 'feeling like learning a completely different game') while also allowing every fully evolved Pokemon to have its niche or gimmick so they aren't useless by default (like say Dewgong or Magmar).
     
  7. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Moderator

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    I think (and I apologize if I'm misreading this) you're misinterpreting the project. This only considers buffing one Pokemon at a time. Gyarados *and* Tangela won't both be buffed at the same time. So you'd be considering a meta where 1U behaves the way it does now, but Gyarados (and only Gyarados!) gets a little better. Would Golem hate having a threatening Gyarados around in 1U? Yeah ... but would that really reduce Golem's usage? Gyarados won't be on every team, so probably not.

    As such, I don't see this as causing great ripples throughout the meta to reshape 1U in any truly significant way. Having one new decent Pokemon to use in 1U is not going to make 1U feel like a different game at all. The goal isn't either "everything is usable" or "everything is viable." The goal is "This ONE THING is now viable, isn't that kind of neat?"
     
  8. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Yeah Enigami I wasn't really meaning for this to lead to anything, I'm basically just dumping my thoughts on what could conceivably be cool ideas for modding the game. It's basically just ideas I find interesting is all. I'm well aware that buffing everything (and nerfing Mew/M2) would create a gigantic mess that would see some pokemon fail to make the cut in terms of viability- to make it work (and I definitely believe it could), it would take a lot of iterative playtesting. I personally don't really care to put all that time and effort in so this will just stay theoretical, and as I say in the OP, if I were to consider the secondary effects of my changes or consider all my changes in aggregate, that would just be too much theorymon to be meaningful imo.

    The really interesting point will be if I can think of distinct roles for every fully evolved pokemon in the game, especially given the level of redundancy present in some groups of pokemon (Waters lol)
     
  9. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    [​IMG] Pidgeot: Base Speed 91->121
    Learns Wrap

    Pidgeot finds itself in an awkward position, with both Dodrio and Fearow outclassing it. However it plays out in a distinctly different way in 6U, as it relies on its Speed to abuse Toxic and Substitute to turn the tables on its counters. Such a strategy couldn't work in 1U thanks to the existence of recovery users so I opted for a slightly different approach: Toxic + Wrap. I also buffed its speed so that it can make effective use of this combination. I actually considered nerfing its Attack as STAB Wrap combined with a base 121 crit rate could be problematic. Ultimately I see Pidgeot filling a role reminiscent of Dragonite- utterly obnoxious to play against, but not broken, as its typing, stats and coverage are all terrible.


    [​IMG] Raticate: Base HP 55->95
    Base Defense 60->70
    Base Special 50->70

    Raticate finds itself in an awkward position- its stats suggest a thoroughly mediocre sweeper, but its niche is defined by its access to Super Fang, which turns it into a potent wallbreaker. Offensively, Super Fang compensates for its mediocre Attack, but its defences are among the worst in the game, with pokemon as frail as Persian managing to have significantly more bulk. So I decided the best course of action would be to buff Raticate’s bulk. This ensures that it functions more as a wallbreaker, as it isn’t as badly crippled by status and worn down by various attacks it might receive as it enters play. Of course, with base 97 speed it is still able to function as a sweeper if the opportunity arises, maintaining that mix of sweeping and wallbreaking potential.


    [​IMG] Fearow: Base HP 65->85
    Base Defense 65->80
    Learns Softboiled, Surf

    I initially wasn’t sure what to do with Fearow. I want to come up with distinct roles for every pokemon, and Fearow is basically a worse version of Dodrio, which will probably get buffed to a similar role to what it has now. So what about Fearow? Well in 3U Fearow is notable for being a really safe switch in to Venusaur, as it’s immune to paraSlam. It’s also immune to Earthquake. You know what, that’s enough to make for a pretty nifty wall in 1U. So I decided to buff its bulk and give it Softboiled. Although it’s meant to fill a defensive role, I still felt its offense was a bit lacking, so I figured Surf would give it decent coverage for getting around GolDon


    [​IMG] Arbok: Poison->Ground
    Base HP 60->110

    I kinda feel I’m being really liberal with adding Ground type. Oh well, it makes sense here, as Arbok is defined by its status as the only Wrapper that isn’t really bothered by Gengar thanks to Earthquake. Arbok has the tools to make waves in 1U, but its typing and stats hold it back. I decided that switching it to a Ground type for STAB on EQ both buffs its offensive power and eliminates its biggest weakness, while the HP buff ensures it’s not totally frail.

    [​IMG] Raichu: Base Attack 90->110
    Base Special 90->110
    Base Speed 100->110

    Raichu is nice and easy, since I don’t have to conjure up some sort of role in 1U for it; it already has an obvious one, it’s just really shit at it due to its bad stats. Speed buff enables it to speed tie Tauros, which is the minimum it needs imo, while +20 to both offenses make it hit a bit harder. 110 Attack is actually a lot for a mixed attacker, but I’m still not sure if it’s threatening enough.
     
  10. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Arbok might be something of a problem with those stats. Glare + Wrap + STAB Earthquake + Thunder Wave immunity is a fairly fearsome package. Also, it's not the only Wrapper with Earthquake; Lickitung gets it too.
     
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  11. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Hmm you could be right. I guess the best way to deal with that would be to remove the HP buff, which would mean it's 2HKO'd by most super effective attacks. Alternatively, could add a second type to give it additional weaknesses, but if I'm trying to be minimalistic that's not exactly the way to achieve that
     
  12. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    [​IMG] Sandslash: Learns Glare
    I honestly think Sandslash has some pretty neat tools, and it's especially great against RaishSey which is always pretty sweet. However it has to deal with Egg being on pretty much every team and struggles with Waters, with Starmie in particular being its nemesis, due to its reliable recovery and the fact that the best thing Sandslash can do in that matchup is fish for a paraslam. Learning Glare patches that up and makes Sandslash an extremely potent threat in the process, however I think it's not too much as it's still dogged by its unremarkable stats.

    [​IMG] Nidoqueen: Poison/Ground->Ghost/Ground
    The Nidos are a tough pair, because it's often hard to separate them. In 1U they're practically indistinguishable, but in lower tiers Nidoking shines a little more than Nidoqueen purely because it's faster. Well, Nidoqueen is overall much more defensive, so it only makes sense to give it a more defensive role. Ghost/Ground immediately gives it excellent utility as a check to Normal types. I've held off on buffing its stats for now, but I suspect it'll need some sort of buff in that area as well

    [​IMG] Nidoking: Poison/Ground->Ice/Ground
    Special 75->90

    The more offensive of the two Nidos the goal here is obviously to make the most of the impressive coverage the Nidos possess. Poison, of course, must go, as it just creates too many crippling weaknesses for Nidoking to find an opening. Ice/Ground is an extremely potent STAB combo and Nidoking seems like the ideal candidate for utilising it. I've also opted to buff its Special, as it's so pathetic currently that Nidoking can struggle even in favourable matchups. These buffs hopefully won't prove too much, as it still lacks raw power, especially physically, and it still can't spread status reliably.

    [​IMG] Clefable: Learns Lovely Kiss
    Attack 70->90

    Clefable is a pokemon that's capable of doing many different things, but it's sadly terrible at all of them. To me, Clefable has the most potential as an attacking status spreader, but is held back by its poor stats and its dependence on Sing to get sleep off. Lovely Kiss gives it a reliable sleep, while the buff to its Attack addresses its poor offenses.

    [​IMG] Ninetales: Fire->Fire/Electric
    Learns Thunderbolt, Thunder Wave

    Ninetales is perhaps best distinguished by having the least potential as a mixed attacker out of all the Fire types. So uh, yay for that? There's not really anything in its movepool that sticks out either. In any case, as with most Fire types, Water types are the bane of their existence. So what better way to address this than by giving it a full kit of Electric attacks? This would also give it a decent niche as a check to Zapdos as well, so there's that.
     
  13. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    I was reading the thread, and I have a question: your goal is to balance the meta by changing only pokémons, or are you thinking about other changes as well? (ex: move changes, type chart changes, etc.)
     
  14. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    From what he said before, just changing Pokemon. Otherwise it'd basically just be another variant like Violet Version or RBY+.


    Sandslash > Glare - I'd throw in Special 55->85/90 on top. Considering it already has an extremely strong STAB and Swords Dance with complete coverage and STILL is as low as it is, I think it needs more than just a 2.5x chance over Body Slam to paralyze stuff. I think Sandslash's biggest problem is its Special bulk. It dies in 2 hits to just about any strong Special Attack, which means even if it finds an opportunity to set up, it's just waiting to be haxed by a crit Alakazam Psychic or Tauros Blizzard. And if Sandslash doesn't set up, it's basically a less threatening Rhydon sans all the benefits of Rock-typing. However, with that big boost to Special, Special attackers no longer 2HKO'd except strong super effective attacks, allowing Sandslash some breathing room to actually threaten Glare or punch holes with +2 EQs.

    Nidoqueen > Ghost / Ground + Nidoking > Ice / Ground - Eh... I dunno. I think they'd work better the other way around. Blizzards and Ice Beams hurt a lot, and the most prominent Normal-type attackers, Tauros & Snorlax, very commonly run Ice coverage right now. Immunity to Normal-type attacks is gonna rely too much on predictions. Between the two, your Ghost / Ground Nidoqueen might have a niche but Ice / Ground Nidoking would be overall more tanky, which reverses their roles. I think Ghost is better suited to the offensive Nido (alongside some offensive stat buffs as needed), allowing Nidoking to leverage a pair of immunities to get in and do some damage while still contributing somewhat defensively while letting Nidoqueen be the more reliable tank. Plus, color-wise they'd fit better with your suggested typings swapped.

    Clefable > Lovely Kiss - Could maybe use Earthquake too. Clefable's niche I think is being a swiss Normal-type, and providing more tools to add to its unpredictability would help. Possibly could be extended further with Meditate/Growth?

    Ninetales > Fire / Electric + Thunderbolt + Thunder Wave - Incredible upgrade for it, letting it blow through Water-types with its newfound STAB and threatening paralysis on anything faster. Fire Blast + Fire Spin + Thunderbolt + Thunder Wave by itself, all STAB, looks pretty deadly. One issue though: Tauros is faster. Tauros has EQ. Tauros OHKOs. Due to this, Ninetales would need to put in work in the early game, since it has no chance whatsoever against Tauros.


    Got a couple of my own:

    Onix > HP 35->55, Attack 45->95, Special 30->45 - Basically just gave it Graveler's HP/Attack/Special. 70 Speed + Bind are huge advantages Onix has over the other FEs, it just can't leverage them against hitting like a wet noodle or dying to practically any Special attack. Grabbing some of Graveler's stats atleast makes it somewhat respectable as an attacker when not trying to abuse bind.

    Porygon > Bulk buffs - It already has a niche as a physical wall, all it needs is to be more reliable at it.
     
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  15. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    Yeah, I read it now. Interesting that I missed it twice, on the first and on the second post. But whatever xD

    Also, if the intention is to bring pokémon to C rank, here are the changes I'd do to Articuno based on the purposal of this thread:

    Articuno: learns Drill Peck

    Articuno is a poor mixed sweeper, as it relies on Hyper Beam and Double-Edge to hit with Physical moves (Sky Attack is an option, but its 2 turns limits its use). Drill Peck solves this problem, and helps Articuno to perform better against some of its checks, such as Chansey and Alakazam.
     
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  16. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    DarkCyborg it's pretty much only changing pokemon, not changing moves/mechanics. I think just restricting mods to pokemon appeals more to me because it's much easier to adapt to changes to pokemon, since they're easier to think of as discrete units, whereas moves and mechanics and the like have a much more broad reach.

    Enigami I think those are some interesting points regarding the Nidos. I disagree that Nidoking would be particularly tanky though, as Ice/Ground, while not having many relevant weaknesses, doesn't have many resistances either, with Electric being the only notable one. That might not matter if it's naturally really bulky but it isn't really. That is a fair point on Nidoqueen, come to think of it, should probably investigate the Tauros matchup, as it may lose to Blizzard, which isn't ideal given its supposed niche

    Regarding suggestions, these are all great ideas, I'll probably use them (and give credit) when I get to those pokemon
     
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  17. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Some more ideas:

    Dodrio > High Jump Kick - Improves Dodrio's role as a glass cannon by letting it actually do damage vs. Rocks, and also gets a stronger attack to threaten Normal-types with. Starts to actually look like an attractive pick.

    Hitmonlee > Speed 87->111+, Hyper Beam - It may need more help than that, but being faster than Tauros would make it a lot better as a late game sweeper. Also it's a fully evolved Pokemon, it's weird that it doesn't get Hyper Beam and Hyper Beam helps to sweep vs. Flying- and Psychic-type Pokemon.

    Pinsir > HP 65->85, Earthquake - Not having to use Submission for Rhydon and simultaneously covering Gengar is awesome. The HP injection heavily reduces the 2HKO chance from Zapdos' Drill Peck and helps keep Pinsir around a little longer.

    Ditto > Speed 48->145, HP 48->?, Thunder Wave, Recover, Reflect, Light Screen, Mirror Move, Self-Destruct - Not sure where it should be put HP-wise, but I figure Ditto REALLY needs some other moves besides Transform to be anything more than a trashmon (except maybe if you did something like give it 255 in every stat). 145 Speed ensures Ditto will get to Transform, paralyze the enemy, set up screens, Mirror Move or explode before the enemy moves. A Ditto user would still be extremely strongly encouraged to Transform, as it is otherwise extremely dependent on the opponent's actions or using its weak Self-Destruct to hurt anything.

    Edit: Ditto v2 > Speed 48->145, HP 48->200+, Ghost-typing - A more minimalist take on buffing Ditto. With Ghost-typing, it gains defensive value as a Normal-sponge, and I'd imagine a weird pink putty thing turning into a hostile doppelganger of you would be pretty eerie and somewhat fitting with Ghost-typing. Speed buff ensures it transforms and gains the opponent's Defense/Special ASAP, and HP buff should help to make up for taking a hit while having to Transform. Normal/Rock could also work too if you wanted to go with referencing Metal Powder, with Normal-resistance+Body Slam para immunity making it still a very safe switch in to Body Slams.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
  18. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Chansey-ish HP would be enough to make it interesting. Most things wouldn't be able to drop it below their own HP in the Transform turn. Recovery users could wall it, sure, but they'd be spending real PP and letting Ditto itself recover.

    Imposter Blissey is better than most Big Legends in later-gen hackmons, remember.
     

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