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All Gens Let's talk about glitchmons

Discussion in 'Analysis and Research' started by Ortheore, Apr 8, 2018.

  1. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I've had glitches in pokemon on my mind lately, in part because RBY as it's currently played is not consistent with the overall policy of the community, and also I'm thinking of what you'd get if you tried to create a "simulator" by basically hooking two emulators up and slapping some UI over the top. I'll start by throwing out a few concepts. Maybe terminology for this sort of stuff exists already idk:
    • Undefined glitchmons- These are pokemon/moves/items(?) that are not defined by the game, instead existing only as the result of programming error. e.g. Missingno.
    • Defined glitchmons- These are pokemon that are defined by the game's code and can be obtained normally, but they possess certain characteristics that are not possible to achieve without the use of glitches. The best example here is EV trained Arceus in gen 4- Arceus can be obtained legitimately, but only at level 100, meaning it can only receive 100 EVs in each stat via vitamins, however there's a glitch that allows players to catch a level 70 Arceus, which can obviously level up and thus be EV trained.
    • Regular cart play- All pokemon are defined by the game, and all their abilities/moves/whatever can be obtained without the use of glitches, via known and accepted mechanics
    Quick note- I'm assuming we're all on the same page with what a glitch is. Although in theory it's possible for there to be some ambiguity as to whether certain mechanics are intentional or not, that's rarely the case and in the Pokemon games we have a pretty good idea of what mechanics are normal and what aren't.

    The stated ruleset across all generations of pokemon is that it must be possible to obtain legal pokemon (regardless of difficulty) without the use of glitches (ie. regular cart play). This is something that's achieved in every generation except RBY, due to the fact that DV restrictions on certain pokemon have not been implemented, making RBY a more restrictive form of defined glitchmons. However in battle there's no avoiding glitches, as to do so would mean modifying the game's code. Furthermore, when an interesting glitch pops up that allows otherwise impossible sets to be used (like the aforementioned Arceus example), there's always a debate over whether it should be implemented or not. To me this is pretty black and white (it shouldn't, because those are the rules we agree to play by), but those arguing in favour of it do have a reasonable case imo.

    Before I look at those debates, I first want to address undefined glitchmons. It's safe to say that no-one would ever want these to be legal, as many of them are literally game-breaking, some of them would behave unpredictably, and more would be technically feasible, but broken as hell. Although you could in theory carry out extensive testing to identify glitchmons that are possible to use, it's a hell of a lot of effort that's not very rewarding imo, not to mention that being actually defined by the game is something that carries some weight.

    The decision to ban defined glitchmons is in my view largely arbitrary, done because that's the way the game is "supposed" to be played. And I want to be clear that that's absolutely fine, I'm not suggesting we ought to reconsider that. I'd also note that sticking to regular cart play makes a lot of sense when playing on a simulator in that it establishes clear boundaries that are very easy to keep track of- it's easy to work out what moves are learnt by levelling up or via TM for instance. Allowing glitchmons means that you could never be sure that every possible mechanic was accounted for (not technically true, but close enough), since glitches are generally much harder to find, especially as time goes on. Also influencing this is that most of the playerbase sticks to simulators and doesn't experiment on cart to find new possibilities, so those mechanics might go unnoticed. This latter point isn't a huge deal, as it's not a dealbreaker and it's also something that exists for any simulator.

    Consistency is another interesting point. We routinely abuse glitches in battle, largely because we have no other choice but to mod, but the fact that we do this but still ban glitchmons is still a little inconsistent. Furthermore, although a simulator allows us to skip the tedious process of raising tournament viable pokemon, it is nonetheless integral to our teambuilding and requires a knowledge of the game's mechanics that goes far beyond what a casual player would have. If you're already utilising an advanced level of knowledge, why wouldn't you push it just a little further in order to gain an edge? On the flipside, referring to such things may be a bit silly when you have to note that we don't actually do that because we play on sims. Lastly, defined glitchmons increases your number of options when teambuilding, which in principle increases depth (whether that would play out in practice is unclear).

    So what would this look like? Well I'm not familiar with newer gens to know all of the possible changes, but in gen 1/2 the possibility of ACE means theoretically anything is possible, except where constrained by memory (I think?). This means any pokemon can have any moveset, and also levels greater than 100. I'm not sure what the actual max level would be, but there's always the option of arbitrarily defining a max level, which may result in us winding up at a max level of 100 again, at which point you've got the equivalent of rby/gsc hackmons.

    tl;dr: The decision not to use pokemon with stats/movesets that are defined by the game but are not possible without using glitches is largely arbitrary, and I think developing a playable tier with those defined glitchmons would be a worthwhile side project
     
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  2. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    Some time ago I was thinking about these stuff. There's the RBY tier 1A, where "almost anything goes".

    "0A" (or whatever you guys want to call) would be the real tier "anything goes", that exploit everything you can get from the games (using glitches or even Game Shark codes). Including glitch pokémons, illegal movesets, and pokémons with level greater than 100. All of it is actually possible on RBY.

    How the simulator would deal with desyncs and crashes, that's up to you guys to decide (crash/desync = tie? Mod to never happen?).

    Finally, RBY 1A is the tier where illegal movesets, glitch moves, glitch pokémons, levels greater than 100 and Psywave are banned.
     
  3. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Level is stored as a byte which can only store a value between 0-255 and loops back to 0 if you add 1 to 255.

    At some point I need to put something together to fully datamine Glitchmons (and test them in game to ensure link battle compatability) so implementing them on Showdown can be possible.
     
  4. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    Yep, when I said "level greater than 100", I meant "between 100 and 255".
     
  5. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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  6. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Some glitches in the game like leve 70 arceus and gira-a/o being able to swap their stats are quite timid in comparison to that, but are within the same boat regarding this...

    Also, allowing arceus to be EV-trained or not could have a big effect on HGSS 1U
     
  7. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    Missingno's revenge for being ostracized all this time.
     
  8. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I thought as much, but wasn't 100% sure since you only need 7 bits to encode 100. Then again, I guess there's no point splitting hairs over such a small data point

    When balancing a glitchmon format, move bans are much more likely to become necessary. For isntance, in RBY based purely on theorymon I'd say Wrap should be a potential ban candidate, due to the threat of STAB AgiWrap from literally every Normal type in the tier. Sure, it's still unreliable and requires setup, but the lack of reliability is much less of an issue because you simply kill things faster. It wouldn't make sense to ban individual users because there would be too many.

    Also in RBY what are the effects of potentially setting the max level to 255? It obviously influences damage calculations and I'm not sure how that compares to the different stat levels. Also critical hit damage might be affected as well, since iirc LC has less crit damage, so that might work in reverse at level 255.

    edit: damn, glitchcity is an interesting site. I assume you could spell out arbitrary code in game to be triggered in oras the same way you do in gen 1/2? I mean I know basehaxx is a thing, but that'd be a simple redirect to files stored on the SD card I imagine (and external code is definitely something off-limits in this context)
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
  9. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I was thinking about this the other day and decided to check. It turns out that the difference in damage and crits is completely negligible. I'd say that the only reason it affects LC so much is that the level is such a small value that the random other constants in the damage formula constitute a significant portion.Anyway, the tools I used to check are below, since most of the newer damage calculators restrict you to level 100.
    Pokemon Stat Calculator (Gen 1)
    Battle Damage

    Thinking more on it, increasing the level to 255 may actually have a negative impact. Reflect and all boosting moves become practically worthless unless the stat in question was terrible prior to boosting, in which case you're only patching up a weakness. There is one notable exception to this last point though- Chansey (and other pokemon with high HP but bad defenses). Because all of Chansey's bulk derives from its high HP stat while its defense is shit, it can still make the most of Reflect (or rather, Barrier/Acid Armor, since they outclass Reflect).
     
  10. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    If you have access to any move, there's no reason to pick Reflect/Light Screen over Barrier/Amnesia. Remeber that Barrier will not boost your DEF stat above 999 (unless you got your DEF dropped by something like Acid, as you can see in this video - I'm not sure if this glitch is applied to simulators, it may affect RBY 1P/Ubers when you have a Mewtwo using Amnesia to PP Stall the opposing Mewtwo, or even an Exeggutor vs Slowbro fight in 1U/OU).

    However, boosting your level to 255 may not be a good idea. Remember that stats are limited to 1023, and they rollback to 0 when you get past it. At 255, Chansey would have 1779 HP, which is, in practice, 755 HP (or almost that). If you want to avoid that, Chansey should be at lvl 146, and her stats would be:

    HP = 1023
    ATK = 156
    DEF = 156
    SPC = 448
    SPE = 288

    Ok, Chansey would still be great at 255, probably even better due to better stats:

    HP = 1779 ( = 755)
    ATK = 270
    DEF = 270
    SPC = 780
    SPE = 499

    On the other hand, Mewtwo is definitely garbage at 255:

    HP = 1045 ( = 21)
    ATK = 805
    DEF = 703
    SPC = 1030 ( = 6)
    SPD = 907
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
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  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    What's the best level for Mewtwo to be at?
     
  12. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    With max IVs/EVs, at lvl 249:

    HP: 1020
    ATK: 786
    DEF: 687
    SPC: 1005
    SPE: 886

    It is probably better with lower IVs/EVs on HP and Special, at lvl 255.
     
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  13. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    You'd only need to reduce HP EVs a little bit for Mewtwo. Just dropping Defense IVs to 14 is enough to put Mewtwo's HP at 1022.

    For the most part, Amnesia/Swords Dance basically degenerate into a one-off Meditate/Sharpen/Growth. This probably would make Mewtwo closer to a buffed Tradebacks Alakazam than a regular RBY 1P Mewtwo. Mew similarly becomes much less spectacular. Snorlax cries because Amnesia no longer breaks through Porygon, and Porygon reigns supreme as the Snorlax counter because Chansey's HP limit severely undermines its physical bulk. (lvl 255) Snorlax Body Slam vs. (lvl 255 1022 HP) Chansey: 685-805 (67 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    One small advantage with Reflect/Light Screen have over other boosting moves is they can surpass 999, but seeing as how you'd need 500-511 Def/Spc just for a small gain, you'd only ever see it used over Acid Armor/Barrier in glitchmons. Nidoran♀ is the ONLY Pokemon at level 255 that has a fully invested Defense stat in the sweet spot for Defense > 999 without going over 1023.
     
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  14. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    There's something about this meta: Electrode with Spore/Swords Dance/Wrap/filler is something that I'd not like to face. It would be:

    Turn 1: Spore
    Turn 2: Swords Dance
    Turn 3: Wrap

    Even if Partial-Trapping is banned, I'm pretty sure that Electrode would be a menace here. The fastest pokémon in the meta, with access to any move.
     
  15. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    The rest of its stats are still awful. After banning partial trapping it wouldn't be too bad (assuming sleep is still nerfed in some fashion; obviously with Spore and unrestricted sleep it beats everything).
     
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  16. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Eh. I've played RBY STABMons, what you have there is basically Lovely Kiss/Wrap Jolteon (which could've ran SD, but I think it ran other stuff, I forget the usual sets. Super Fang as I recall was standard, with like Thunderbolt or Explosion or something like that). Beyond a doubt a top mon, but not horribly broken outside of ruining the lead game (which would be ruined no matter what unless all sleep moves were banned or Sing was the only sleep move) unless you removed Sleep Clause for some unthinkable reason. I think though banning partial trapping moves would be a good idea in a hackmons meta since otherwise you could just cheese with Electrode/Mewtwo/Jolteon/Aerodactyl/Alakazam/Dugtrio trapper teams.

    Edit: An alternative would also be speed limits on certain moves. Partial trapping isn't broken on slower Pokemon, and neither is accurate sleeping moves.

    Edit2: My memory of STABMons is kinda fuzzy, but I think I recall Quick Attack Snorlax being a good check to Wrap Jolt. You're doing 17-20% each QA and Wrap is doing about 2% per hit, so Lax wins if Jolt keeps playing for wrapping cheese. Obviously doesn't fix the hackmons problem of way more than just the one cheezy super speed wrapper.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
  17. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    Agreed. But take in account that it can learn Amnesia/Barrier and any other move to boost its stats. It can also learn Recover. And has a nice 810 HP.

    Ok, it would never be a behemoth like Mewtwo in Ubers, but with Spore, it's definitely a staple and the best lead of the meta.

    I think that would be enough. There's also Agility that could pair with Wrap (and Spore as well), but that's way easier to handle since everything has access to TW/Stun Spore/etc.
     
  18. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I was curious about this at work today and looked up which pokemon would be affected by stat rollovers. It seems the threshold for non-HP stats is between 140 and 154, as Electrode's speed is unaffected, while Mewtwo's special is. For HP, everything that's base 105 or higher loses some HP.

    The list below was simply calculated by subtracting 1023 from the calculated stat for each pokemon, so idk if there would be slight variations in practice, depending on how you'd actually go about avoiding rollover.
    Mewtwo- loses 7 Special (0.68%) and 22 HP (2.11%)
    Onix- loses 37 Defense (3.49%)
    Cloyster- loses 139 Defense (11.96%)
    Muk, Kangaskhan and Rhydon- lose 17 HP (1.63%)
    Jigglypuff loses 68 HP (6.23%)
    Vaporeon and Lapras lose 144 HP (12.34%)
    Wigglytuff loses 195 HP (16.01%)
    Snorlax loses 297 HP (22.5%)
    Chansey loses 756 HP (42.5%)
     
  19. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Eh. The question is whether Electrode is really better than Jolteon, which has a way better Special.

    There's also the question of whether leading a sleeper is a good idea when you can put sleep on anything (if sleep is unrestricted, then sure, put sleep on everything and speed FTW, but unrestricted sleep is silly in RBY).
     
  20. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    If you're leading with an Electrode using Spore (and you're not facing another Electrode), you're garanteed to move at least twice before your opponent makes any move (and if you keep Electrode there instead of switch, it will be 3 moves before your opponent makes its first move). I don't think it is irrelevant. You can use that turn 2 to do anything you want. You can use boost moves to improve Electrode's low Special, you can use status moves like TW/Stun Spore to paralyze the switch-in and pray for a 4th free turn due to full paralysis, or you can just attack whatever your foe switches in... your choice.

    Ok, at some point, your opponent will come with a pokémon with Spore and will do the same thing with you. But if you take things like paralysis into account, those 2-or-3 free turns are not garanteed to him as it was for your Electrode.
     

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