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ADV OU (OverUsed) Lead Dugtrio (and Magneton)?

Discussion in 'Analysis and Research' started by magic9mushroom, Aug 30, 2018.

  1. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Okay, so let me preface this by saying I know very little about ADV OU and have never played it.

    That said, something has been bugging me recently about the RMTs and usage stats I've seen, and that's how Tyranitar and Skarmory seem to be fairly-often used as leads (fair enough, as Ttar sets permasand just by being in and Skarm can set Spikes) but lead Dugtrio and Magneton seem to be nonexistent. I don't really understand why; a t1 trap, while kind of a dick move, would give an immediate advantage.

    What's the issue here?
     
  2. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    I'm surprised somebody as narcissistic as yourself can admit when he doesn't know much about something. Anyways...

    ~Dugtrio fails against every other lead except Metagross, but the same problems occur.
    ~Certain spreads can survive the Earthquake and OHKO back
    ~Leading with Dugtrio means you lose the element of surprise
    ~Losing Dugtrio early means it can't help teammates that greatly appreciate it (Skarmory)
     
    Disaster Area likes this.
  3. Sadlysius

    Sadlysius Member

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    I sometimes lead Dugtrio when I see a lot of people with TTar lead on the ladder. It needs to be a bulky Duggy because most of the time you won't OHKO. Doesn't seems like its a viable lead, I do it for fun.
     
  4. hclat

    hclat Member

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    Both are 99% unusable, unless you've picked up on an extremely consistent tendency of your opponent. thelinearcurve lead magneton against kerts, a lead skarm spammer, twice in a 3-game set in last ADV world championsip, immediately catching skarm once. Kerts won the series.
    The main reasons both are bad (im somewhat echoing ggfan):
    -Both are mons that one doesn't want revealed until absolutely necessary. With the knowledge that an opponent has a trapper, a player will change the way they play to make the trapper less effective (avoid revenge kill opportunities with dud-vulnerable pokes, don't allow obvious mag switches into skarm, try to catch mag with dug double, etc.)
    -Magneton must switch out of every lead matchup barring skarmory, (maybe hera if ballsy). Being on the back foot is bad, especially against lead pokes, which often are in that spot because they are difficult to switch into. It must even switch out of matchups it "wins" like zapdos and cune due to the threat of spikes and dug in the back.
    -Dugtrio has marginally better odds of accomplishing something. However, it must heavily invest to live a base 135 atk earthquake and can never live meteor mash, will ohko neither tar nor meta, and is eq-locked as your opponent switches something in. if the opponent goes to skarm after this interaction, dug cannot come in again on spikes. Heracross is lead dug's only clean ohko, but it will likely be revenge by a dug or p2 since hera teams should prep for dug. This means dug usually a neutral trade against: hera and tar, a slightly negative trade against meta, and completely loses momentum against zapdos, skarm, mence, cune, jolteon.
    -Finally, the opposing lead is usually an early game wallbreaker, not a wincon, and thus rarely the most important poke for dug to trap on a team.
    I wrote more here than I meant to lol, hope this answers your question.
     
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  5. deluks917

    deluks917 Host Emeritus

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    Lead Magneton is viable and makes alot of sense. Many teams crumble if skarms doesnt get spikes. Kevin garrett lead magneton multiple times in SPL.

    Lead Dugtrio seems suboptimal to me. It doesnt cleanly beat special tyranitar and always losses to metagrosss and cbtar.
     
  6. hclat

    hclat Member

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    Could you link the replays of lead mag in spl? i couldn't find them but i also didnt really follow that tournament.
     
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