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RBY OU / 1U (OverUsed) Kingler [Done]

Discussion in 'Individual Analyses' started by Ortheore, Jul 11, 2015.

  1. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Kingler [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Type: Water
    Stats: 55 | 130 | 115 | 50 | 75

    Introduction

    Kingler is a Pokemon that is capable of representing an enormous threat given the right circumstances. It has a monstrous base 130 Attack stat, which can be further boosted by Swords Dance. Its physical prowess is complemented by STAB Crabhammer, which provides consistent damage by virtue of its high critical hit rate. On top of all of this, its middling Speed means it needs less paralysis support than other physical attackers to be effective. Despite these traits, there are many issues plaguing the mighty crab—it loathes paralysis, and its abysmal Special stat means that most special attackers can easily 2HKO it. Consequently, it can have a very difficult time finding an opening.

    Sets

    Swords Dance

    Kingler
    - Swords Dance
    - Crabhammer
    - Body Slam
    - Hyper Beam

    Set Details

    The goal of this set is to power through an opposing team once you’ve spread paralysis enough. Swords Dance is used to boost Kingler’s attack to astronomical levels. Crabhammer is Kingler’s STAB move and ensures that Rock-types do not wall it, as well as being Kingler’s best option versus. Gengar. Body Slam is used to spread paralysi and for dealing damage if the enemy isn’t in KO range of Hyper Beam. Hyper Beam becomes Kingler’s main tool of destruction after a boost, threatening almost anything in the game.

    Other Options

    Stomp is a notable alternative to Body Slam- the flinch chance can potentially enable Kingler to bring an opponent into Hyper Beam range without any retaliation, while the reduced damage output is often irrelevant when combined with boosted Hyper Beam. On the other hand, you lose the ability to paralyse with Body Slam and therefore paralysing faster threats is critical, however Body Slam's lack of reliability in spreading paralysis means you aren't missing out on much in that regard.

    Checks and Counters


    Zapdos can easily tank one of Kingler’s attacks, outspeeds it, and OHKOes with STAB Thunderbolt. Gengar is immune to Kingler’s Normal-type attacks and 2HKOes it with Thunderbolt, but it must be wary of switching into Crabhammer repeatedly, as it 3HKOes. Starmie resists Crabhammer, outspeeds it, and 2HKOs it with Thunderbolt, while STAB Psychic also usually 2HKOs, but if paralysed, it has to be careful, as boosted Hyper Beam has a 30% chance of KOing it. Jolteon switches into anything Kingler uses and outspeeds and OHKOes with Thunderbolt, but it has poor durability and cannot take repeated switches. Exeggutor and Slowbro have significant bulk and access to paralysis, but Slowbro can only deal significant damage if it has Psychic. Unparalysed Reflect Alakazam doesn't faint to anything Kingler uses, sets up Reflect, and proceeds to beat Kingler. Victreebel isn't really a good response to Kingler, as it is slower and is OHKOed by boosted Kingler around half the time, but it is notable for being able to OHKO with Razor Leaf. Similarly, Lapras resists Crabhammer and has Thunderbolt, but it is outpaced and 2HKOed by boosted Kingler. Generally, Kingler can be kept in check by not letting it set up, and good status management, ensuring you keep your key Pokemon free of paralysis and by paralysing Kingler when you see it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
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  2. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Virtually everything that threatens Kingler is threatened or atleast hurt badly by Zapdos or Jolteon, so that's definitely a good place to start. Jolteon deals with a couple more threats, including Zapdos and Starmie, takes Thunderbolt better, and can switch into Lapras' Blizzard more often (2HKOs Zapdos, 3HKOs Jolteon), while Zapdos has more durability for the other threats. Both can also paralyze Reflect Alakazam for Kingler.

    Kinesis Alakazam might be able to force a switch from one special wall to another, helping to spread paralysis. I haven't ever tried this, so I have no idea if this works.

    T-Wave Dragonite can try to bait Starmie and get it paralyzed for Kingler, and might keep Jolteon and Zapdos in to trade T-Waves, assuming the opponent expects an attempt at wrap abuse. It can also run Blizzard to help with Victrebel and Exeggutor, and get extra damage against Zapdos.

    The Rocks can help with its Electric-type problems, and Golem can always explode on Slowbro if it starts to get out of hand.
     
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  3. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    mmm yeah reading your post and then thinking about how something like Jolt+King would work, the prospect is very alluring. One thing you didn't touch on is how electrics lure in GolDon. This makes it a mutually beneficial relationship, since Electrics appreciate Kingler threatening GolDon, while GolDon also represent Kingler's best opportunity to go on a rampage, an opportunity it can sometimes struggle to find otherwise
     
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  4. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Well, I was focusing on mostly on things that benefit and support Kingler, but yeah I figured an Electric + a Rock would probably be the best teammates for it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2015
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  5. Sobi

    Sobi hi Member

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    gp 1/1, change title to "done" after implementing this.
     
  6. lord of the crabs

    lord of the crabs Member

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    As a long time huge Kingler fanboy (see my name) and over half of my all-time games played with him, I do believe that Stomp is way better than Body Slam. Kingler is definitely the best Stomp user in the game, way better than Tauros. There's a TL;DR at the bottom if you don't want to read the whole text.

    Body Slam can be a good option if you run a team with a rock+Kingler. Because then you often kinda have to use Kingler in early/mid game to bait in their Zapdos/Jolteon/Starmie and try to paralyze it on the switch with Kinglers Body Slam. But Kingler+Rock is not nearly as good of a team as it might sound. If you run that, then first of all you have to drop one of the big 4 or use one of them as a lead. Secondly, that team doesn't have enough paralysis support for Kingler. Thirdly, Kingler is bad at swapping into Blizzards aimed at Rhydon since he gets chunked by them and Kingler can't setup if you switch him in early or mid game, he desperately wants to come out in late game with 100% health against an enemy team that is as weakened as possible.

    You never pick Kingler as a tanky water type to tank some hits on switches, deal some damage back and spread paralysis with Body Slam. Kingler is a sweeper who most of the time puts your teams Tauros on mid game duty, Kingler watches the other 5 members of his team sacrifice themselves just to spread a little bit more status and deal a little bit more damage and then cleans up the weakened enemy team 1v6. When you switch Kingler in, you don't want to switch it out.

    So when you put Kingler in, the enemy is highly likely already paralyzed or it's a normal type immune to BSlam para (they are not immune to flinch). And whatever is the case, since Kingler is such a glass-cannon he benefits way more from 1 turn of guaranteed Flinch than possibly getting more turns out of paralyzing the enemy himself, and having a long fight with it to get multiple turns worth of value from the paralysis.

    And most importantly, almost anything that Kingler faces which doesn't die to Stomp+Hyper Beam from +2 Attack also doesn't die to +2 Body Slam+Hyper Beam. +2 Stomp+Hyper Beam kills for example Exeggutor, Zapdos and Tauros from full hp with 100% certainty and Dragonite with around 98% certainty. The only somewhat relevant 100% sure +2Atk KO's you miss are on Snorlax and Lapras, but firstly since Kingler is such a late game pokemon he almost never meets a full HP Snorlax or Lapras (who aren't sleeping), secondly even with Stomp he has a decent chance of KO'ing them (Can someone calculate them pls, I don't know how) and thirdly the damage difference only matters if he doesn't get the Flinch. Since if he does get the Flinch, Stomp has already outdone Body Slam.

    So what about KO's where you can't get an initial Swords Dance off? Using your BSlam/Stomp before a Swords Dance is a rare situation since +2 Hyper Beam deals way more damage than +0 BSlam/Stomp+Hyper Beam. This situation arises if you predict the enemy swaps to a pokemon that turn who you want to gamble on statusing turn 1 and killing turn 2 and then setting up on the next pokemon or sweeping without any setup. There is a single difference between Stomp and Body Slam here. +0 Attack BSlam+ Hyper Beam is a 100% sure KO vs Alakazam while Stomp+ Hyper beam is around 50% sure. I admit that this one is a relevant one, but teams with Kingler are built around spreading Paralysis and a 100% HP non-paralyzed Alakazam getting to late game is rare.

    To put it all short: If you use Kingler as a dedicated late game sweeper (which is his default role) he benefits way more from Flinch chance than Paralyze chance (enemies are already paralyzed, Normal types can be flinched but not paralyzed), but he doesn't mind the lost damage except in some rare edge cases (having to face a full HP non-sleeping Snorlax or Lapras who don't get Flinched by the Stomp, or trying to kill a full HP non-paralyzed Alakazam without a Swords Dance).

    Edit: I removed 1 sentence from the Alakazam section claiming that Stomp can Flinch it on the switch same as BSlam can paralyze it, and removed mention of it from the TL;DR section, see magic9mushrooms reply below
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    What's this about flinching on the switch and guaranteed setup turns? Are you sure you're not misunderstanding how flinch works?

    I mean, I think you have a point on Stomp. Just, y'know, not on those uses of it.
     
  8. lord of the crabs

    lord of the crabs Member

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    You Flinch the enemy when they switch-in and then you get a free turn to Swords Dance when they are Flinched.
     
  9. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    I'm pretty sure flinch only works on the same turn, though admittedly it's been a while since I played emulator.
     
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  10. lord of the crabs

    lord of the crabs Member

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    Ah mb, I never knew that. Stomp can't be used turn 1 without boosts to get a setup turn unlike BSlam then. So the situations where this matter in favor of Body Slam are if you have to predict a switch into a non-paralyzed non-normal type pokemon who is faster than you on your Kinglers 1st turn instead of Sword Dancing. If Kingler is faster he Sword Dances first turn to Hyper Beam or Stomp and if it's a normal type or is paralyzed the enemy can't be paralyzed by Body Slam anyways.

    Edit: so even with this in mind I still think Stomp is way better, but I certainly didn't know about this

    Edit2: I removed the incorrect parts from the Alakazam matchup and TL;DR section from my original reply with a disclaimer in the end
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    ... the mechanics of Stomp aren't exactly complicated lmao

    I'll read an argument on Stomp vs Body Slam once someone who knows what the moves do writes it
     
  12. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    For what it's worth, I think he's right. Paralysing shit that's faster than you is best done on the switch - if you're doing it after you've set up, they get an attack, and since Kingler is 2HKOed by half the meta that is Bad. But doing it before you set up means you need to switch out and come back in to set up - this is a hit-and-run tactic used by bulky shit, not something Kingler should be attempting with its hilarious frailty and total lack of immunities or near-immunities (even resisted non-STAB Ice attacks take off like 20%).

    Stomp, on the other hand, synergises well with Swords Dance. Yes, you need to pre-paralyse shit that's faster than you, but it does what it needs to do - prolong a sweep. Body Slam can't do that (or rather, it can, but only if they're unparalysed and slower than you and not Normal-type and get paralysed and get FPed - that's 7.4%, on 6 of 16 C rank+ Pokemon, while Stomp gets 30% on all of them).

    If you don't actually want to sweep with Kingler and just want to get para on Jolteon/Zapdos/Starmie, then sure, use Body Slam use Slowbro. If you're using it as a dedicated sweeper, though, Stomp's probably better.
     
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  13. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Tbh that's a pretty compelling argument for Stomp. I'll create an OO section for Stomp, however I'll refrain from slashing it just yet since I think more investigating/testing needs to be done, even though I do think that's a really good argument.

    edit @below: edited the section to note that psychic usually 2hkos
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
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  14. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    The way it's phrased here sounds as if Starmie needs Thunderbolt to be a Kingler counter, but actually Psychic usually 2HKOs as well (though it's under 50% to get the crit OHKO).
     
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