1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome to Pokemon Perfect, Guest!

    Our motto is Pokémon Practice makes Pokémon Perfect. We are a competitive-battling community that encourages the development of players and their ideas, and fosters positive and respectful attitudes. We love Collaboration (working together), Competition (getting stronger), and Communication (being informed).

    You are free to post everywhere, unless the thread explicitly states otherwise (usually in the case of a vote), and there are no private forums whatsoever. We just require you to not make multiple accounts. Let us greet you by posting a thread in the Introduce Yourself! forum.

  3. Tiers

    View Introduction to Tiers if you don't know what tiers are. Pokémon Perfect tiers are named differently to those on Smogon. A numeral followed by the letter U, e.g. 1U, 2U, 3U, represents a main tier on Pokémon Perfect – the '1' of '1U' representing the tier level. For a tier to be a main tier, it must be balanced (nothing is too powerful and game-breaking) and diverse enough (include a variety of Pokémon and strategies). A numeral followed by the letter P, e.g. 1P, 2P, 3P contain all Pokémon that are deemed overpowered in the respective 1U, 2U, 3U tiers. The 1st tier level allows Pokémon that are banned in the 2nd level, and this process continues down. Read the tier list, and in-depth explanations of the tiers naming system and tiering system. Also check out our analyses for all tiers.

  4. Tournaments

    RBY 1U Seasons and its master tournaments are responsible for starting up the community, and tournaments continue to play a big role in maintaining interest in the forums. Signups Open gives you a list of tournaments you can join, and Ongoing lists tournaments that you might want to follow. Additionally, you can tap to find out approximate Schedules for tournaments.

    For historical threads, check out Signups Closed, Finished tournaments and Results. We also have Nominations, Voting and Event threads for exhibitions – past and present.

RBY OU / 1U (OverUsed) Jolteon [Done]

Discussion in 'Individual Analyses' started by Ortheore, Jul 25, 2015.

  1. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 16, 2013
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    1,272
    Jolteon [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Type: Electric
    Stats: 65 | 65 | 60 | 110 | 130

    Introduction

    For many years, Jolteon languished on the fringes of OU, passed over in favour of Zapdos. Why would you use Jolteon when the big bird exists and sports a gaudy stat line? Well it’s not as though Jolteon’s stats are anything to brush off, as it’s the fastest Pokemon seen in OU with a blistering base 130 Speed stat and a respectable base 110 Special stat. Just as importantly, it lacks a Flying type, which means that it walls opposing Zapdos and is also much less fearful of getting hit by a Blizzard, making it better as a soft check to Water attackers. Its speed, status and offensive potential also enable it to function as a lead. It’s not without its downsides, as Golem and Rhydon wall it effortlessly, and its poor physical bulk and Ground weakness expose it against other physical attackers as well. Lastly, its inferior coverage options make it relatively easy for foes to chain-switch in order to mitigate the damage it causes. Nonetheless, Jolteon makes for an interesting and worthy addition to a team.

    Sets

    Spark Plug

    Jolteon
    - Thunderbolt
    - Thunder Wave
    - Double Kick
    - Pin Missile / Rest

    Set Details

    This set is actually quite versatile, being useful as a lead, as part of a core mid-game, and possibly as a late-game sweeper. Thunderbolt is Jolteon’s STAB move of choice, as it is reliable and deals a good amount of damage to almost anything that doesn’t resist it. Thunder Wave is an immensely useful utility move, good for supporting the team, as well as helping Jolteon hax its way past would-be checks. Double Kick sees use primarily against Chansey, which it 4HKOs, potentially allowing Jolteon to luck its way past Chansey. It’s also Jolteon’s best option against Golem and Rhydon, but the damage in that situation is abysmal. Pin Missile is strictly for use against Exeggutor and Victreebel, potentially dealing significant damage if they stay in. Note that against other Psychic-types such as Alakazam, Thunderbolt is generally the better choice despite Pin Missile hitting super effectively. Rest is a notable option, particularly on non-lead Jolteon, as it allows Jolteon to counter Chansey while also reinforcing its ability to counter Zapdos, however it should be noted that a sleeping Jolteon is easily exploited by physical attackers.

    Checks and Counters

    Golem and Rhydon fear nothing in Jolteon’s arsenal and retaliate with powerful attacks. Alakazam is a strong check, as its enormous Special bulk allows it to tank Jolteon’s attacks and Recover off any damage and paralyse it in return. Similarly, Chansey is a strong check to sets lacking Rest, however it struggles to deal damage in return, meaning that it can't break through Rest. Exeggutor counters Jolteon that forgo Pin Missile, while even against Pin Missile variants it allows for the use of chain switching to neutralise Jolteon's offensive potential. Snorlax is only 4HKOed by Jolteon and can retaliate with powerful physical attacks. Tauros can hit Jolteon with Earthquake, but it loathes paralysis and should only attempt to KO Jolteon if Jolteon is already paralysed. Paralysing Jolteon negates one of its biggest advantages, so aim to paralyse swiftly. Lastly, Jolteon’s coverage attacks are feeble if they fail to hit their intended target, so taking advantage of this by chain-switching to minimise damage is recommended.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
    TerrakionSmash likes this.
  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,550
    Likes Received:
    2,426
    hey double kick does good damage vs rocks, compared to zapdos's drill peck. It does like 30% on a crit compared to drill peck's 20%. And 56% on a crit vs chansey is important. Maybe worth noting, I feel sleeping golem/rhydon could wake up vs zapdos but would struggle more vs jolteon.

    Note that in lead matchups Alakazam generally loses to Jolteon, but paralyzing Jolteon's pretty valuable. In my eyes though nothing really has a good lead matchup vs it. Guess that's cos I don't mind being para'd vs Zam. Note also it can KO Jynx fastest of any common lead.

    Exeggutor is the most obvious partner, as it switches in vs rocks and gets sleep.

    Moltres is sorta of note, since it can sweep in the presence of Starmie, and Moltres is ground immune - helping vs Lax and Tauros - and it can potentially burn rocks for good measure. Articuno is good for similar reasons, but add Lapras to Starmie, and note that it just Kos the rocks instead of statusing them.

    JoltLap is an interesting core tho.. quite italian.. works a lot like Jolt+Egg, but u are harder to wall.

    Jolt+Zap = THE double electric core.

    Also mention Dnite for setting up vs Rocks. And Kingler too.

    heh maybe slowbro and the rocks are the only things WITHOUT obvious synergy with it rof
     
  3. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 16, 2013
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    1,272
    Eh if DK fails to crit then it's only doing like 15% roughly, which is pretty poor. Also struggling to wake up is underselling GolDon's waking chances imo, Jolt needs to get lucky in order to stop them waking unless they've got a really long sleep.

    Jolteon's a funny lead in that every matchup bar Starmie is kinda just meh. It doesn't reliably do much beyond Twaving something, but it gets Twave off vs literally anything. If it weren't for GolDon potentially coming in it would probably be seen as very consistent, which seems a little funny.

    JoltCuno is something I've built a couple teams for but never actually ran. One of the biggest problems facing Electric+Cloy/Cuno is that it runs the risk of being totally hard-walled by a combination of Rock+Water, since the aforementioned pokemon are totally incapable of wearing their counters down. JoltLap would be cool tho, with Jolt taking on Starmie, Lapras taking on GolDon and both pressuring Chansey for Snorlax to come in.

    Between Jolt's anti-aquatic coverage and the obvious need for anti-rock support there's tons of cool things to try with Jolt
     
    Disaster Area likes this.
  4. Sobi

    Sobi hi Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2016
    Messages:
    179
    Likes Received:
    17
    For many years, Jolteon languished on the fringes of OU, passed over in favour of Zapdos. Why would you use Jolteon when the big bird exists and sports a gaudy stat line? Well it’s not as though Jolteon’s stats are anything to brush off,(comma) as it’s the fastest pPokemon seen in OU with a blistering base 130 sSpeed supportingtat and a respectable base 110 sSpecial stat. Just as importantly, it lacks a fFlying type,(comma) which means that it walls opposing Zapdos and is also much less fearful of getting hit by a Blizzard, which allows for some interesting teambuilding options. It’s not without its downsides,comma though, as Golem and Rhydon wall it effortlessly, whileand its poor physical bulk and gGround weakness expose it against other physical attackers as well. Lastly, its inferior coverage options make it relatively easy for opponentfoes to chain-switch in order to mitigate the damage it causes. Nonetheless,(comma) Jolteon makes for an interesting and worthy addition to a team.


    Spark Plug

    Jolteon (M) @ (No Item)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Thunder Wave
    - Double Kick
    - Pin Missile


    This set is actually quite versatile, being useful as a lead, as part of a core mid-(hyphen)game,(comma) and possibly as a late-(hyphen)game sweeper. Thunderbolt is yourJolteon's STAB move of choice, as it is reliable and deals a good amount of damage to almost anything that doesn’t resist it. Thunder Wave is an immensely useful utility move, good for supporting the team,(comma) as well as helping Jolteon hax its way past would-be checks. Double Kick sees use primarily against Chansey, which it 4HKOes. It’s also Jolteon’s best option against Golem and Rhydon, but the damage in that situation is abysmal. Pin Missile is strictly for use against Exeggutor and Victreebel, threatening to do massive damage if they stay in to weather the attack. Note that against other Psychic-(hyphen)types such as Alakazam, Thunderbolt is generally the better choice despite Pin Missile hitting super effectively.


    Checks and Counters

    Golem and Rhydon fear nothing in Jolteon’s arsenal and retaliate with powerful attacks. Chansey is a good check, as it shrugs off all of Jolteon’s attacks, though an untimely critical hit or full paralysis can leave it in a tight spot. Likewise,comma Alakazam is a strong check, as its enormous sSpecial bulk allows it to tank Jolteon’s attacks and Recover off any damage and paralyse it in return. Snorlax is only 4HKOed by Jolteon and can retaliate with powerful physical attacks. Tauros can hit Jolteon with Earthquake, but it loathes paralysis and should only attempt to KO Jolteon if Jolteon is already paralysed. Paralysing Jolteon negates one of its biggest advantages, so aim to paralyse swiftly. Lastly, Jolteon’s coverage attacks are feeble if they fail to hit their intended target, so abustaking advantage of this by chain-switching to minimise damage is recommended.

    gp approved
    [​IMG]
     
  5. peach_nair

    peach_nair Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2017
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    30
    I think Jolteon's chance at taking down Chansey is a bit understated. Sure, Jolteon is crippled by paralysis, but in my experience, if the Chansey stays in to 1v1 Jolteon, full paralysis and critical Double Kicks often take Chansey down. This opens up other team building options, as Snorlax does not have to be totally dedicated to taking down Chansey, and Starmie and Lapras of course appreciate Chansey being eliminated. Being a Zapdos check without being weak to water types is also a plus. I'm not sure, just a few thoughts I had!
     
    Ortheore likes this.
  6. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 16, 2013
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    1,272
    My experience is that it's something like 50/50 (don't actually know the odds) so I wouldn't go quite that far, but I went ahead and noted that Jolt has a decent chance to hax its way past Chansey. It's also heavily circumstantial, as it's not something you want to go for against a fresh Chansey, but it's a huge threat if it switches in at like 70% or something.
     
    peach_nair likes this.
  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    665
    Likes Received:
    398
    IMO "massive damage" is an overstatement of Pin Missile. Chansey's Ice Beam is more threatening to Exeggutor than Jolteon's Pin Missile, and I've never seen that called "massive damage".
     
    Peasounay likes this.
  8. peach_nair

    peach_nair Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2017
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    30
    Critical Pin Missile has a chance to OHKO Exeggutor, I'd say that's a pretty big threat. The problem is it does pitiful damage to anything else, so chain-switching is useful, as the OP states.
     
  9. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2015
    Messages:
    498
    Likes Received:
    534
    The problem with Jolteon vs Chansey is that Jolteon is relatively easy to switch into (especially when paralyzed) whenever the chansey gets healthy enough. That means that the Chansey user can switch out into Tauros for example as Double Kick does not really hurt Tauros much, because the Jolteon user has to commit to Double Kicking, otherwise he can forget having any chance of beating Chansey at all.
     
    Chrysalis and peach_nair like this.
  10. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    665
    Likes Received:
    398
    So does Ice Beam via freeze; I chose my example very deliberately. And at a much, much higher chance than a Pin Missile OHKO; 255/256 hit * 26/256 freeze ~= 10.1% vs. 216/256 hit * 65/256 crit * 1/8 five hits * 16/39 high damage roll ~= 1.1% (miracle territory; this is only three times the chance for the infamous miracle of a 255-missed Explosion).

    Pin Missile's chance of even 3HKOing Egg is a coin-flip (Chansey has about a 70% chance with Ice Beam), and anything better is highly unlikely. The obvious comparison, Zapdos' Drill Peck, has a coin-flip to 2HKO, and has a much higher chance to OHKO with a crit at 5.5% (still bordering on miracle territory, but the point stands). Pin Missile is not just highly specialised - though it certainly is that - it's also not great at the job it's supposed to do, and while not exactly a Jolteon counter Exeggutor doesn't have to run away scared as some mistakenly do.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
    peach_nair likes this.
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,550
    Likes Received:
    2,426
    It doesn't have to run away scared but with Pin Missile's high variability, sometimes even if the Egg is in a position where it's likely to be able to stay in safely, there's a small but relevant chance that Jolteon will do a lot to it as it fights back, usually with status. Like, the chance of para'd egg getting put into range of Tauros HB, which is probably the single most relevant thing (esp given jolt is almost never paired w rocks) is high enough to be very real. Whilst Egg shouldn't run away scared de facto, there's better Pokemon to have it versus in order to land sleep against [e.g. alakazam; if egg is unpara'd then anything slower e.g. chansey or lax; will grant no gengar/rocks in a jolt MU reduces the opportunities for Egg]. Thing is, (1) high variability, (2) context, (3) relevant benchmarks before exeggutor is KOed being much more likely
     
    peach_nair likes this.
  12. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 16, 2013
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    1,272
    What are everyone's thoughts on Rest? I tried it ages ago and wasn't satisfied with the results, however I recall seeing mention of Rest Jolteon becoming a thing (might've been Nails that mentioned it) and although I don't know whether it'll actually catch on I think it's an interesting point of discussion, because the theoretical case isn't bad.

    Rest allows Jolt to counter Chansey, while against Zap it improves Jolt's chances of stopping it without becoming death fodder in the process. Unfortunately, Rest Jolt suffers from the same flaws that Jynx does- its physical defense is a gaping weakness when asleep, so it's likely to get punished heavily. Jolt does have speed to its advantage, so if it wakes when Tauros is in play it can at least do something rather than immediately dying. Overall, I don't think Rest Jolt is very good.

    Despite not being good in a vacuum, Rest could very well still be worth running, because Pin Missile is itself a pretty awful move. The first point worth mentioning is that its coverage is very specific- it hits Egg and Bel, and basically nothing else. Obviously, having a narrow range of targets isn't great but the main issue is that because PMissile is so incredibly bad against everything else, Jolt is extremely weak to chain switching, meaning it can be extremely easy to play around. Furthermore, Egg is relatively easy to neutralise due to being most active early in the game and furthermore isn't that threatening outside of sleep and boom, while simply paralysing Bel accomplishes plenty without the need to deal damage. And lastly, even against Egg and Bel, PMissile is pretty shit. Although it can potentially deal large amounts of damage, most of the time it'll hit for 30-40%, which is significant, but not enough to really prevent Egg/Bel from staying in accomplishing something meaningful, whether it be spreading status or dealing damage that's actually on par with an ordinary PMissile. Still, this latter point isn't all that strong because it is still a very risky play

    So I don't like Rest Jolt, but I think Pin Missile is sufficiently bad that it's justifiable to run Rest in its place. That said, it might help if someone with more recent experience actually using Rest Jolt wanted to comment
     
  13. FriendOfMrGolem120

    FriendOfMrGolem120 aka. "FOMG" Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2017
    Messages:
    155
    Likes Received:
    286
    I think Rest is the most common choice nowadays on non-lead Jolteon and should be included on the main set slashed with Pin-Missile.
     
  14. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,550
    Likes Received:
    2,426
    Rest is everywhere on it nowadays. Don't know that I'm a fan but definitely deserves a strong OO mention at a minimum and other competent RBYers could make the case that it deserves a more prominent position in the analysis
     
  15. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 16, 2013
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    1,272
    Yeah I'm just going to go ahead and slash it
     
    Disaster Area likes this.
  16. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2014
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    804
    Rest is not super good on it but at the same time Restless is terrible, so it should be the main set
     
    TerrakionSmash and HML am like this.

Share This Page