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GSC I want to take some credit away from Borat

Discussion in 'Analysis and Research' started by Roostur, Dec 29, 2016.

  1. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Zapdos, cloyster, steelix, lax, exeggutor, vaporeon.

    This is a very popular team. It was made popular by borat. I've seen it countless times. A lot of people use it or a variation of it. Borat made a guide where he went into detail about a team he made in 2004 and how he evolved it through the years all the way to 2011 into the team I posted above. It is a good offensive team and ever since he created his guide he has been credited as the creator of the team. Well today I want to take that credit away because I discovered something.

    [GSC] havoc posts a team

    Havoc created a nearly identical team 7 years earlier. The only difference is that vaporeon replaces gengar. For as long as I've been playing gen 2 I have called that team the borat team. Well from now on, it will be called the havoc team. You don't get to replace one pokemon on a team and call it your own. So ownership is being placed back in the original creator's hands. Looks like havoc was ahead of his time, or borat was just behind the times. Probably the latter.

    If someone has stolen a team that you made, please contact the Roostur police at 1-111-chicken chicken chicken
     
  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    That's a cool find but 1 it could be chance 2 iirc the main thing of that team that made it innovative etc. was the vaporeon with its set
     
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  3. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Well I would have to disagree. Even Borat says in his guide that vaporeon is not the focal point of the team. And as one of the better players of the gen who has used the team and variations of it a lot, I can tell you that vaporeon is one of the more replaceable pokes on the team and sometimes isn't the best poke to have in that slot. And after finding this I don't even know whether I want to believe that borat even was the first to use that vap set. But this is all beside the point. I just wanted to get rid of the misconception that he created the team and give credit back to havoc.
     
  4. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    well it's an interesting point

    still, it could be coincidence, but yea definitely interesting
     
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  5. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Could be a coincidence. We can't know it for a fact and we never will. All we know is when havoc was playing with this team in 2004, borat was also playing the game. And not only was havoc playing with that team, he even posted it on a forum for all to see (988 views last time i checked). Which would mean even MORE people were playing with it. It is possible that borat just happened to dodge havoc and all the people that used it, and that he didn't see the post, and just happened to recreate it all on his own years later. But that is a hell of a coincidence. You can't blame me for being a little suspicious. Maybe he sub consciously stole it. Maybe he did see the team, forgot it, and genuinely thinks he created it. But regardless, I'm just glad I found that post. For five , almost six, years we have all thought it was an original idea by borat.

    I actually stumbled onto that post trying to find information about Celia and the teams he used back when he played. Still haven't had a lot of luck.
     
  6. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    He also says that he built the team around Vap, focussing on using Explosion to clear the way for it. I'm not disagreeing with your point that it's replaceable, just pointing out that that was what he set out to do in creating the team, only to find as he used the team that Vap isn't necessarily the star afaik. I'd argue that this is just coincidence brought about by the nature of GSC- the idea of using Explosion to clear a path for a sweeper is pretty simple and probably something many players have come up with independently. By building with that strategy you'll probably end up with a team that looks similar to that of Borat/Havoc, regardless of whether or not you've seen their teams.

    Also there's an interesting discussion to be had on things being named after you- in the context of RBY, two notable sets are RaishSey and m9mBro. Both are named after the players who popularised the set, but I don't think either of them invented their sets.
     
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  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Well, I've never called it that. My nickname for it, as far as I used one, was "Tankbro". I took the idea from some of Jorgen's theorymon. Withdraw + Amnesia Slowbro technically was invented by Nintendo, as Lorelei has one (though it doesn't have Rest and has Water Gun as its damaging attack); I've no idea how much, if any, competitive use it saw in the era of real RBY.
     
  8. Linkin Karp

    Linkin Karp machine, machine Season Host

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    I'm just gonna quote the paragraph Borat puts on top of all of his guides.

     
  9. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Yeah, except he's not doing a mea culpa and acknowledging that he might be reinventing the wheel himself, only saying that everyone after him is. Kinda myopic, but whatever.
     
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  10. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Gen 2 - GSC Team by Borat | Smogon Forums

    just found this. Ugggghhhhh.

    What is even funnier is that at the end of it all he says that vaporeon is not the focal point of the team and that gengar should be the first go to replacement. Blehh. Makes me sick seeing that.
     
  11. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Borat's a very insightful writer, and has done much for the tier which others haven't. None the less you may be misleading yourself if you think his is a benchmark for a competitive team.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
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  12. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    There's a guy called Kuririn who has an evil Explosion / Vaporeon team, probably the best gen 2 explosion team I've seen
     
  13. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    For a guy who seems to know quite a bit about the gen idk why he thinks that team is the best team ever created. I don't think it's that great. It could be that it was just really effective against the sort of teams people were using back then. But I have so many teams saved that work so much better for me.

    I've played that Kuririn guy. Forretress, golem, gengar, exeggutor, vaporeon, lax is what he used on me. He's pretty good.
     
  14. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Haha well I don't wish to undermine anybodys hard work but yeah I've never seen that team do well. I think the fact its presented in tutorials for gen 2 is misleading too, pretty hard team to use for even seasoned players; I see too many beginners trying to pick up the gen using that and it just doesn't work.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
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  15. Linkin Karp

    Linkin Karp machine, machine Season Host

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    Just a noob question, but what IS an easy team for beginners? I've tried a bit of GSC using Nat's Nidoking/Skarm/Lax/Forretress/Raikou/Vaporeon so far.
     
  16. Conflict

    Conflict Member

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    Thats a harder team to play at the start imo.

    Easiest stuff would probably be something like this formula:
    Zapdos, Cloyster, Snorlax + TTar/Steelix +
    if TTar: Nidoking or Raikou
    if Steelix: Exeggutor, Gengar
    + last Mon 1 out of: Machamp, Vaporeon, Gengar, Exeggutor, Heracross (Eggy/Hera pref. if Raikou)
     
  17. Ariel Rebel

    Ariel Rebel #1 rsutton23 Fan Member

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    Skarm, Raikou, Lax and Cloyster is a very safe core to work with. The other 2 spots are really at your discretion. At least one of those spots should be dedicated to being able to opening the game up (see Conflict's last point).
     
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  18. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Yeah I agree with Arial, the defensive teams are always what you should learn GSC with. Not only that, they just are the best team structures in GSC period, even at advanced levels of play. Once you've found your feet and really know your way around the mechanics well, that's when you start trying the damn stall assasin teams like Borats. You're never going to be able to use that team properly if you don't understand the defensive threats to begin with. Here's 2 examples of pretty much standard defensive teams which imo are the best with which to learn GSC:

    1.Raikou
    Thunder, hidden power ice, rest, sleep talk

    2.Starmie
    Rapid spin, psychic, surf, recover

    3.Snorlax
    Curse, double edge, fire blast, rest

    4.Nidoking
    Lovely Kiss, earthquake, Thunder, ice beam

    5.Skarmory
    Toxic, drill peck, whirlwind, rest

    6.Miltank
    Growl, Body Slam, heal bell, milk drink

    Or:

    1.Raikou
    Thunder, hidden power ice, rest, sleep talk

    2.Cloyster
    Spikes, toxic, surf, rapid spin

    3.Snorlax
    Lovely Kiss, curse, double edge, rest

    4.Suicune
    Toxic, surf, rest, sleep talk

    5.Skarmory
    Toxic, drill peck, whirlwind, rest

    6.Tyranitar
    Curse, rock slide, earthquake, roar

    (leftovers on everything)

    I might just turn this into a whole new thread because I kinda feel like this question comes up a lot from players trying to pick up the gen and I think the guides/ sample teams already out there are probably a little too complex for most beginners to be taking on.
     
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  19. sulcata

    sulcata Member

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    I don't really like either of those teams. The first one gets hard stalled really badly by basically every form of missy stall, any other stall matchup is basically a stalemate of switching. Second one doesn't fair as poorly, but it doesn't look like it has the right tools to really play the long matchup v. stall. raikou on the second team looks like the only answer to vaporeon, since lax won't kill in time, suicune can't do anything, and cloyster can't explode; which makes the team a bit too simple to pin down imo.

    I mean if you want them to learn by figuring out why the team is losing I guess it makes a lot of sense. Figuring out that your opponent can just switch and pp stall you solely by matchup seems like something a lot of new players haven't been noticing. That and last mon lax scenarios. Most new players seem to risk way too many explosions on pokes that their team is reliant on as well, i.e. they don't get that being forced to trade is extremely bad.
     
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  20. sulcata

    sulcata Member

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    Also I really wouldn't be surprised if it was sheer coincidence. Borat mentioned that he and some other user also came up with a team independent of one another. I think I remember him posting somewhere that the team was similar to one that havoc made before but icr.

    I don't think the last slot of the team isn't nearly as malleable as people make it out to be either. Vaporeon fits the spot a lot better than Gengar for that specific combinations of pokemon and sets borat posted, at least for the current meta. I don't think the RMT he posted recently is a very good iteration of the team though. The formula conflict posted as an easy-to-play template is far more accurate in showing the changes you'd need to make to that style of team to fit on a 6th.

    Realistically just swapping the 6th will do okay at a low level, but at higher levels of play you need to swap out certain pokes and throw hp fire/electric or ice beam on it. Simply swapping it out without that usually means you'll get hard stalled or that curselax will roll over you.
     
  21. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    And what teams in gen2 have this guaranteed synergy against stall raikous and growth vaporeons? They just have a good matchup against most pokes, that's why they're popular. Thief rest Misdreavus is pretty gimmicky niche and purely for hardcore stalling, its not exactly common, and not exactly at the top of the threat list for average beginner who's trying to learn the gen is it? Either way they're pretty much the stall cores in their most common form; if I missed something there please point it out. I was actually thinking the latters biggest problem was its own lax is its best answer to last poke curselax. Either way I think these are much better teams to be learning with than the Borat team. If you have a more suitable option do share it with us Sulcata..
     
  22. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    With regards to Borats team imho the biggest problem with it is it just has a bad switch in synergy for Raikou, Zapdos & Gengar, especially if its mono lax. Overall speed is lower than what i'd be comfortable with too. I get why it has appeal, if you have the stall frustration fever it offers you the tools to break it (if you're a damn good player). But newbies I think would benefit much more from having a Raikou team so they don't have to worry about being outpaced by the 3 aforementioned so easily.
     
  23. sulcata

    sulcata Member

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    you don't need guaranteed synergy, but literally relying on one pokemon for repeatedly switching in is bad enough. automatically getting stalemated by stall is a whole other situation. the first team has absolutely 0 ways of beating raikou/snorlax/skarmory/miltank or missy. missy doesn't even need to be rest when you can't pin it down.

    vaporeon is kind of an issue if you're facing someone competent because you don't have any water resists that take it on. suicune and starmie just let vaporeon set up, so they really can't count. raikou isn't exactly stellar at switching into surfs, even unboosted. that's assuming you still have it and that you didn't happen to lose it.

    thief rest is the most common in the meta at this point. i really wouldn't call it a gimmicky niche, it tends to work much better than perish trap.

    The reason I don't like the iteration borat posted is specifically because it doesn't do well v. stall. It's also kinda missing a few tools that make offense a bit easier to face. Monolax isn't great on that team imo. HP Fire should be slashed first over giga drain on egg, ice beam/hp electric is probably more effective on cloyster overall for baiting opposing exeggutor and cloyster.

    I already pointed out that conflict's template is fairly suitable for beginners. Jorgen's teambuilding heuristics are still fairly relevant. Overall, if you're giving newbies teams that get stalemated from turn 1 or that get pressured by pokemon like vaporeon for free, I think they'll get quite frustrated and turned off from gsc.

    edit: i'd say that not having one of the following:
    zapdos, explosion cloy, explosion egg, roar suicune, a lax set that actually beats vaporeon, or literally anything to force vaporeon out while not getting 3hko'd by surf.
    is generally unacceptable. especially if you're not running spikes.
     
  24. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    I climbed the ladder with the team once. From what I remember monolax covered more but then you would get hard countered by a team like this [Gen 2] OU replay: teass vs. Roostur - Pokémon Showdown . I had to change it to a belly drum lax to beat this guy (who is benny south street) . Though belly drum lax will beat that team, it will lose to other teams, more teams than monolax. It is just an inconsistent team that isn't worth using on the ladder. Might be good in tournament if you know what your opponent likes to play, but even then there are just better teams out there.
     
  25. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    So team 1 has trouble with a mirrored replica of itself? I think that's something you could apply to any team. I don't see how Nidoking is walled by any of them? Its always a case of predicting right but I don't see how that's a given? The team has switch ins for all the checks you mentoined so if you're saying that the fact it can be stalled is the problem what's to stop you stalling right back? Yeah I agree explosion cloyster is nice for a pinch solution for vaps but that opens the team up to Machamp a bit. My thinking is that learning explosion teams is probably the next stage you go to after you got a grasp of the fundamentals, like you say, for freshmen it normally only seems to serve as path to faster suicide. We're not talking about cutting edge SPL breaking teams here; just the most suitable thing to allow newcomers to get their foot in the door. I think they're good enough to give newbies a good shot at beating 90% of the ladder players without the requirement of a high level of skill applied. I don't know what this conflict team is, but like I say, you've got something that you think would be better to give these guys a good start in the tier i'm all ears.
     
  26. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    What areil rebel said basically. Stallish teams like that teach you the whole "this poke sees this poke, and this poke sees this poke" game really well. Pokemon really isn't the most complicated thing in the world in the first place though so ultimately I don't think it actually matters what you start with. Play long enough and watch what other people do and you'll learn.
     
  27. Ch01W0n5h1n

    Ch01W0n5h1n Member

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    Since this has evolved into a advice Thread, I´m going to point one thing out: If you are trying to learn a new gen, you don´t have to start at Square one, the first step you should try is finding the equivalent of Elements you used before.

    This will help you creating your own Playstyle. and you will eventually find out about Mon vs Mon Scenarios while playing (as you proceed to edit your team(s)). Not to mention that you will probably save yourself some time too, instead of being stuck to use something you maybe don´t enjoy to.

    The reason why I point this out is that I think that when players learn a Tier, and start with stallish or Standard teams, they will later on not differ from previous Players, turning them into another copy, instead of encouraging the Player to build his/her own Teams, Sets, and making own Mon Choices.
     
  28. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    I guess we all have our ideas on where to start in this game. I'm not really trying to start a pissing match, so the advice is probably best directed at the guys who are asking for help here. I'm just giving my 2 cents.
     
  29. Ch01W0n5h1n

    Ch01W0n5h1n Member

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    I didn´t try to fed anyone up or something, I mean we can all have different takes on some topics, but we don´t have to smash our heads because of it ^^

    Don´t even think it´s the only way, ways work out differently from player to player, so I don´t think any way of learning is the one universal way you should take, but that alternative routes do exist. But I sure do have a personal preference
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
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  30. sulcata

    sulcata Member

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    Nidoking can only LK one thing. Nidoking v. Suicune varies based the current state of the game, but Suicune almost always has the upper hand without worrying about spikes. Snorlax can easily rest loop nidoking too.

    My point with that first one was mainly that it doesn't beat any stall. Every stall stalemates it in a best case scenario for the user of the team. In a worst case scenario you'll get spin blocked and eventually something will die. Literally every stall team I have and almost every stall team that I've seen used at high levels of play can just switch against that and set up a winning path at leisure. Even the random stall teams people use on the ladder stalemate it most of the time. The team does not even need to be a "mirrored replica". Once snorlax is out of the way, certain offensive teams might even be able to stalemate you.

    There's a huge difference between stall and stalemate. Stalling at least means you're forcing your opponent to waste PP, health, or some other resource. Getting stalemated would mean that the optimal move is to not use any of your resources for both sides. Recommending a team like that to beginners would just turn them off from the game.

    Offensive explosion teams are the teams I see beginners do best with. Stall teams are quite a bit more difficult to play since newer players will often put themselves into switch patterns that are very easy to read. When I was talking about the template conflict posted, I meant earlier in this thread. I've seen beginners do fairly well with most permutations of that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
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  31. borat

    borat Member

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    Bumping dead thread to clarify a few things.

    Specific combinations of 6 pokemon is impossible to "invent", especially when looking at things retroactively with "current knowledge". The best inventions are always intuitive when looking back (see: smartphones), and explosion teams were one of the best archetypes.

    The "team" part of it isn't the pokemon but the sets. Thunder zapdos wasn't really a thing. Mono curselax wasn't a thing either. That steelix is also rarely used due to inability to hit the #2 pokemon at the time (though popular with vil/havoc/a few vets). Combining them was high unheard of. And of course vaporeon is vaporeon, if not a bit forced. I'd argue havocs team was the archetype of good explosion teams back then, with the primary true innovation being clamp cloyster. It was a collection of 6 good pokemon rather than something structured primarily around synergy, which did not exist at the time.

    Moreover when it comes to effectiveness, everybody knows the most effective things are surprises. How else could something like up electric cloyster enter the meta? That's why "scouting" the team with phazer is such a big part of the game. No surprises. That's why people at the time did a lot of battles without spectators.

    That's why I've always been a bit hesitant to publicly release it. It's a bit of a catch22 really -- if I used it as a guide to build an effective team, then it would be public, popular and known, thus not as effective due to losing the surprise factor. Then would I essentially be describing how to build something ineffective? Maybe. Hence why the meat of the guide is technically in allowing different options and variations to keep your opponents on their toes.

    Unfortunately things don't play out the same. People see the wall of text, scroll down to the list, then net team. This greatly reduces the effectiveness of you use something predictable. That is the whole point of offering different options. Not just the vaporeon slot, it's really about the snorlax, cloyster, and exeggutor movesets as well.

    Some of my favorites at the time were machamp and gengar for vapors on spots. And explosion snorlax was the number one switch up. Sets and pokemon are always going to be meta specific. What I had worked for what I faced at the time. There's no way an offensive team like that is going to stand the test of time without the person having some ability to adapt to the meta (there are literally three pokemon that get hardwalled) And if that wasn't the gist of what I inferred, then it wasn't a really good guide to begin with.
     
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  32. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    Borat's idea of growthvap and LK lax are very good and probably even bigger than the team. I liked the "wall of text," it brought me to pokemon and It was a great read. If borat did not create the team, he sure as hell optimized it.
     
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  33. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    Also on the topic of stall, I "individually" built a rather common stall team that already existed, in the form of Zap/lax/cloy/skarm/kou/umb, which was already existing at the time. Because I built it with around 600+ battles of tweaking and perfecting it has become my most comfortable team. I encourage beginners to build a random team with OU mons and tweak the hell out of it. My team transferred from a hodgepodge of OU mons to very good stall team that has got me Decent results.


    Tl;dr beginners, try stuff out, build what you want to, dont net team because then you suck with that team.
     
  34. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    net teaming is fine for learning stuff, honestly. Sometimes u need to just throw yourself at the game and see what happens for a bit. Everyone's different.
     
  35. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    If you dony make a team you won't understand it as thoroughly and it won't be personalized. If I instead net teamed my stall from Roostur or Borat or something I wouldn't understand it as much and it wouldn't play it as well.
     
  36. borat

    borat Member

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    I think netteaming is fine.

    But netteaming is never going to be as effective unless you understand metaing move/pokemon replacements. Teams in gsc are really just groundwork archetypes rather than a specific set of 6 pokemon and 24 moves.
     

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