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  3. Tiers

    View Introduction to Tiers if you don't know what tiers are. Pokémon Perfect tiers are named differently to those on Smogon. A numeral followed by the letter U, e.g. 1U, 2U, 3U, represents a main tier on Pokémon Perfect – the '1' of '1U' representing the tier level. For a tier to be a main tier, it must be balanced (nothing is too powerful and game-breaking) and diverse enough (include a variety of Pokémon and strategies). A numeral followed by the letter P, e.g. 1P, 2P, 3P contain all Pokémon that are deemed overpowered in the respective 1U, 2U, 3U tiers. The 1st tier level allows Pokémon that are banned in the 2nd level, and this process continues down. Read the tier list, and in-depth explanations of the tiers naming system and tiering system. Also check out our analyses for all tiers.

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RBY UU / 2U (UnderUsed) General Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Ortheore, Oct 7, 2017.

  1. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Hey all, post your thoughts on the tier here! This is also the place to call for any potential suspects. Eventually we'll be getting up a VR ranking thread (probably soon, since we can just modify the old one) so that'll also be another place to discuss.

    My first thoughts after my series vs Drud:
    • Atm it seems like the tier has enough para spreaders to keep AgiNite in check, but holy hell is Dragonite bulky. Gyarados barely dents it with Body Slam, so you can expect it to start running Blizz, over either BSlam or HPump imo. Actually come to think of it, is there anything Gyara does that DNite doesn't? I guess there's outspeeding DNite lol, but otherwise it's just got STAB HPump and that's it
    • What does Kangaskhan run? Without Don there's no need for Surf, but does DNite replace it with Blizz, or is Khan more free to run Counter?
    • Electabuzz is at least as good as Raichu- Surf is nowhere near as useful as it was with Don around, while Buzz's Psychic at least hits Bel- not the biggest threat, but still relevant, more so than Surf. It feels like a bold statement to say that Buzz is better, but it's plausible tbh. More likely they're on par with each other.
    • Dodrio is a thing. It still struggles to stand out from the other Normals but without Don to fall back on it can be pretty scary
    • Yeah Haunter's probably S
     
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  2. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Kadabra's not even a good lead tbh. Terrible status absorber, while its matchup vs Hypno is terrible- it tends to paralyse it, at which point Hypno becomes a mammoth obstacle to getting sleep off. Meanwhile Hypno in return is enigmatic in that it could spread para or sleep with either one being as likely as the other

    Just felt like making a note of that
     
  3. FireBlastGreninja

    FireBlastGreninja Member

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    • Gyara trades 4x ice weakness for a 4x elec weakness which may be preferable since Blizzard is such a stupid good coverage move on things that get it (though Tbolt is probably more common filler move so it probably evens that out), and aside from that and it's 1 extra point in speed... no, I don't think Gyara has anything over Nite. Though that speed may be crucial in 1v1 since Gyara should carry Blizzard with Nite in the tier.
    • Blizzard and Counter are the most popular 4th moves on Kanga, I prefer Blizzard since it lets it 2hko Nite but Kanga's good defense lets it take attacks nicely so Counter can come in handy as a surprise move, assuming you are good at predicting of course since it's Counter.
    • Buzz outspeeds Tenta while Raichu speedties which is probably the biggest pro Buzz has over Raichu. But I agree I don't think Buzz is that much better and wouldn't mind Buzz dropping to B rank (discussion probably better for the viability thread)
    • Haven't used Dodrio yet, looks pretty scary though.
    • I don't see much appeal in Haunter. Yes, it counters Wrap and has the unreliable Hypnosis but it's such a free invitation to psychics and even Dugtrio that it just feels I am trading one weakness for more weaknesses and it's just a terrible momentum sink. Sure it has boom but coming off a base 50 attack it's pretty pathetic.
      Haunter Explosion vs. Dragonite: 168-198 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- 7.2% chance to 2HKO
      I know I'm alone in this but I just have no idea how to use that thing effectively but I know at least it's far from being one of the best since it doesn't stop Nite and Tenta to spam attacks which they still can do after Haunter has been revealed.
    • Agree on Kadabra. It's way too good to be a status-fodder and aside from Haunter it doesn't have any other good lead-matchups.
     
  4. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Gyara vs. DNite: 2 big things Gyara has: no 4x Ice Weakness, so Tentacruel, bulky waters and Articuno don't obliterate it, and Hydro Pump which hits really really hard on things that don't resist it. The former is the bigger reason though, since Tentacruel is the top dog of the tier. That said, Tentacruel still outspeeds and Wraps, and Blizzard is still neutral against Gyara. All in all, I'd say use Gyara if your team isn't looking great against Tentacruel or general Ice attackers, otherwise use DNite.

    Buzz vs. Raichu: Buzz with Body Slam can ruin Dugtrio's day more than Surf when it paralyzes, so in my opinion, Buzz seems superior due to Psychic hitting more targets, 105 Speed and Body Slam being an option to cripple Dug on the switch, reducing the value of Raichu's Surf a little (unless you happen to face Sandslash). On the otherhand, a crit Surf does OHKO Dug and Raichu's matchup with Sandslash is vastly better than Buzz's.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  5. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Let's try and get some discussion going on this again... Some players have voiced their complaints about the state of 2U, particularly regarding Wrap with Tentacruel (and Dragonite, but Dragonite seems to me to be nowhere near the same threat level). Opinions on it are quite contentious, and while it is not broken by itself, it does seem to be some level of unhealthy. Some have even argued to break transitivity, which is off the table. Ultimately unnecessary in my opinion too. A possible solution to this that doesn't break transivity what I'd propose as Fast Wrap Clause, preventing the combination of high speed and Wrap to be used together. Wrap in this case would be the move Wrap itself, and not the less accurate and thus far non-unhealthy other partial trapping moves.

    Some possible implementations of Fast Wrap Clause could include:
    Fast Wrap Clause A) 100+ Base Speed & Wrap - Eliminates Wrap Tentacruel.
    Fast Wrap Clause B) 80+ Base Speed & Wrap - Eliminates Wrap Tentacruel, Dragonite and Arbok.
    Fast Wrap Clause C) 70+ Base Speed & Wrap - Eliminates Wrap Tentacruel, Dragonite, Arbok, Victreebel, Dragonair and Tentacool.
    Fast Wrap Clause D) 298+ Speed & Wrap - Eliminates Wrap Tentacruel, and can also be used to ban Agility + Wrap on the grounds those combination of moves allowing you to achieve speeds of 298 or higher and thus circumventing Fast Wrap Clause similar to the case of Mean Look + Sleep in other gens technically violating the spirit of Sleep Clause.

    What is your opinion on Wrap? Fine as is, unhealthy when utilized with something with high speed, or broken? (and please, no arguing for banning Wrap in 2U only, Fast Wrap Clause has multiple ways to target Wrap without a non-transitive ban)
     
  6. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I don't think wrap is broken. Wrap is fine in every other tier (including 5U where one of the S ranks uses wrap). I don't know about 2U specifically but I feel that if anything should be done about the current state of the tier then it probably ought to be a ban on individual pokemon rather than a move.

    If you wanted to do a complex ban, it would be better to ban Wrap on a specific Pokemon than Wrap on Pokemon above a specific speed, but I would rather there be no complex ban if there were to be a ban (which I strongly oppose).
     
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  7. EB0LA

    EB0LA KING OF PP Member

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  8. CrapAtRBY

    CrapAtRBY Member

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    Personally I'd probably leave 2U as is but if there is going to be a ban it should just be on Tentacruel, I'm not someone who's against complex bans but this is clearly targetted at a single mon in a roundabout enough way that I think just banning the mon would be better
     
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  9. EB0LA

    EB0LA KING OF PP Member

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    I think it needs more testing, I too am against complex bans, but a speed-wrap clause would be the best way to go, if needed, instead of banning Pokemon. Currently, nothing with wrap seems to be broken to me, as long as you're prepared for these threats. But this can be played around, and taken advantage of. In UU you can never cover all threats. There's the powerful birds, the wrappers, counter to those 2, and then counter to the counter.
    But if we ban wrap on tentacruel & dnite, it will just make the birds op again, as tentacruel is the main thing curving them. Will Tentacruel still even be 2U with its best tool is taken away? 2U is a wrap-centralized tier after all. Sure it may not be fun, but not fun ≠ broken.

    I propose we run a couple tests and see how it snowballs:
    Test 1. Fast-Wrap Clause (on Dnite+Cruel)
    Test 2. No tentacruel (BL)
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  10. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Ban Wrap, even though at this point I don't believe in bans anymore.
    From a purely historical standpoint , votations on banning Wrap from RBY OU showed a 60-40ish split (PO on AgiliWrap, for example) in favour of not banning it: remember that Wrap is pretty rare in OU (you have fast and/or bulky pokemon with TWave) to put it in perspective.
    If anything, Wrap in 2U is a big reason for players to not like the tier.

    There are just too many things to be aware of 2in U: Tentacruel is stupid and to make it very simple the good old RBY 2k10's BL was way more enjoyable than this (people were not using Tentacruel and Moltres and I don't know why, maybe it was simply due to Jolteon - this is what we would need to understand and fix if we start from there, indeed).

    Rhydon is back in OU, and other things should be discussed as well (there is enough evidence for Jolteon I guess)
    | 1 | Chansey | 24 | 100.00% | 50.00% |
    | 1 | Snorlax | 24 | 100.00% | 50.00% |
    | 3 | Tauros | 23 | 95.83% | 52.17% |
    | 3 | Exeggutor | 23 | 95.83% | 47.83% |
    | 5 | Starmie | 11 | 45.83% | 54.55% |
    | 6 | Alakazam | 9 | 37.50% | 44.44% |
    | 7 | Zapdos | 6 | 25.00% | 50.00% |
    | 7 | Rhydon | 6 | 25.00% | 50.00% |
    | 9 | Jynx | 5 | 20.83% | 60.00% |
    | 10 | Lapras | 4 | 16.67% | 50.00% |
    | 11 | Slowbro | 2 | 8.33% | 50.00% |
    | 11 | Persian | 2 | 8.33% | 50.00% |
    | 11 | Gengar | 2 | 8.33% | 50.00% |
    | 14 | Jolteon | 1 | 4.17% | 100.00% |
    | 14 | Moltres | 1 | 4.17% | 0.00% |
    | 14 | Dragonite | 1 | 4.17% | 0.00%
    This modus operandi (aiming at single pokemon) failed. Would you please bring me more options (rulesets) for a 2U tiers and test them?
     
  11. EB0LA

    EB0LA KING OF PP Member

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    So Persian is moving up to 1U with that sort of logic?

    Jolteon is definitely viable, and good in OU. Just look 100% win rating. He can outspeed everything & is definitely threatening to everything. Not the best, but definitely OU material. & I don't know if 1 tour is "enough evidence". We should view it from a longer time scale, it could have to do with the current meta being the way it is, is all.

    I may have misread your post, mb

    --
    But on topic. Banning Wrap, can make everything a lot simpler, but why not include all Partial-trapping moves?
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  12. Sceptross

    Sceptross Leader

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    I am not opposed to banning partial trapping moves in RBY 2U at all - in fact, I think their overcentralizing nature is harmful for the tier and thus, would probably vote in favour of it if a vote is ever held.

    I had several people tell me that they didn't like 2U/UU because of the Wrap spam - too many to not be a red light for me. So yeah, definitely in favour of banning trapping moves as a whole.
     
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  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    If we banned wrap then yeah we should probably ban all partial trapping moves, nothing separates wrap and the others except in power, typing, and accuracy.

    RBY 5U is fucking amazing though entirely because of partial trapping (in that case, specifically wrap). I am 100% against banning partial trapping moves. If people really hate the state of RBY 2U right now, banning tentacruel is a far superior option to banning partial trapping. It is much better targeted with much less collateral.

    If people want to hear a pro-wrap argument I can make an impassioned case, but I don't feel like writing it out right now.
     
  14. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Lol no, Persian won't be OU due to making 2 appearances.
    Lol, 100% win rate = 1/1.
    Top RBY players don't like Jolteon, facts. Slowbro is pretty unliked too at the moment, but we're not sure about what's going to happen with it; on the other hand Jolteon doesn't have the stats or the movepool - 2U pokemon that can be used in OU at your own risk (Jolteon) against OU power level (Slowbro).

    Yeah, ban trapping moves: Fire Spin too, etc.

    Well, you think it is... 5U has always been ultra-underground in first place.
    If you want to Wrap people in 5U, just ban it from 2U and leave it unbanned in 5U...
    Banning Tentacruel would mean that you didn't learn a thing after what went wrong so far, and finally no - people don't want to hear a pro-Wrap argument: they hate it when it's all over the place.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  15. EB0LA

    EB0LA KING OF PP Member

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    And do we do this for Ubers-ZU or just in 2U because people deem wrap boring? ...or 2U & down bc cloyster is fine? The wrappers have to belong somewhere. 2U is their home. If we ban Partial-trapping moves only in 2U, but not lower, it can just cause tentacruel or Vic to fall to 3U, and just doninate there & same story all over again.
     
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  16. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    That's not how our tiering system works.

    We should ban wrap if generally speaking, pokemon which can use it effectively significantly reduce the competitive depth of the game (see the current Banworthiness Guidelines) [if you disagree with that standard, post in the thread about it!].

    It seems clear to me that in 2U, the problem is tentacruel, not wrap, if anything.

    And this is why we have transitivity. If something is banned in 2U it is banned in every tier below it too, to prevent stuff like this happening. Thanks EB0LA for making such a clear depiction of it.
     
  17. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    I faced trapping moves very rarely in Ubers, and I was fine with that; they are gimmicks in OU: Victreebel and Cloyster as main options, and I Dnite after them.
    Those pokemon aren't used heavily in OU, and it's only fair to allow the trapping-less versions of them in 2U; we'll take care of what happens to them in the future: I don't understand the point of being worried about what is going to happen to Tentacruel and Victreebel in 3U, when 2U (which is the tier we're realistically using for tournaments) has issues.

    It failed so hard and you're still restrained into it...
    The ultimate proof is that you're refusing to hear the community's opinion on trapping-moves in 2U because you need to defend your little 5U heaven...

    Oh, anyway... I don't have a problem giving a shot at every possible approach against Wrap (example: 1) ban Wrap on Tentacruel only 2) ban it on DNite too 3) ban on Victreebel too, and so on..).
    In the best BL/2U version I've ever played, they were allowed but they were very rarely used - that's the amount of Wrap people can take (and honestly, I 100% agree).
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  18. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Hi, I'm adamantly against banning Wrap and against the implementation of any sort of fast wrap ban. In the case of the latter it's a rather silly complex ban imo, and so specifically targeted that we should be talking about individual pokemon bans. As for Wrap as a whole, I think that all of the evidence we have demonstrates that Wrap is not consistently broken, instead that it only causes issues in specific cases, such that it's better to ban individual pokemon rather than the move as a whole.

    Now if people wanted to ban Tentacruel, that's something I can definitely see happening. Tenta doesn't feel broken to me, but from a rational standpoint it possesses a lot of the traits that make something banworthy- it directly limits options via Wrap, demands that you run at least one pokemon capable of revenge killing it (possibly more) while also limiting the viability of other pokemon. The reason it doesn't feel broken is possibly because I've adapted to the warping of the metagame that it produces. In any case, if people feel the need to take action, Tentacruel would be the best choice imo
     
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  19. EB0LA

    EB0LA KING OF PP Member

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    Before we ban partial-trapping moves out of 2U we need to test what the tier would look like & feel without them.

    Will it be like GSC with Snorlax removed that it's even worse? How many more will join the 2U banlist if wrap &or Tentacruel are removed. (Articuno? Moltres? Smthelse?what?)

    (For the record, I still don't see partial trappers as evidently being broken, as there are ways to deal with these threats. Only argument that I'm seeing is that it is boring.) So I find GSC boring so I don't play it simple.. lol maybe 3U can fancy your likes & leave 2U for the players who don't mind it.

    Also I feel if it does get banned in 2U, it should just go ahead and follow suit down all tiers below it as well. But this is up for discussion too, when the time arises. We need to figure out the first issue first.
     
  20. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    What do you mean, it failed? I don't know what you guys' problem is. 2U is fine. If people want to talk about a ban, then I agree with Ortheore, it should be Tentacruel. But even that is far from clear.
    And yes, just because Wrap is dominant does not mean the tier is not fine. Wrap is a move that exists in Red Blue and Yellow and works the way it does. Thunder Wave in OU is just as "unhealthy" (one could argue, which I'm not gonna).
    And I don't see any reason to differentiate 2U from 3U in terms of importance. Why is 2U of all things the tier people would play in tours? Why can't it be 3U? It makes no sense to me.
    That seems to be the case. But it is no argument... "boring" is not an argument, sorry.
     
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  21. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    #1 it hasn't failed
    #2 I'm listening to their opinion

    ???
     
  22. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Not one Fire Spin, Clamp or Bind user was ever a problem, and I see no reason to target those moves. That 70-75% accuracy is pretty awful odds to rely on repeatedly and are good tools on the Pokemon that have them, especially with the users' limited coverage and movepool.

    Also should maybe clarify I have no opinion and what action to take regarding it due to my outdated experience with 2U, I just wanted to present another option available beyond Tentacruel and/or Wrap being banned / left alone.
     
  23. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    It is fine to you - you like it! I don't think people approaching to 2U are happy right now: I've played basically every sort of RBY without spitting, but 2U doesn't attract me at all right now.
    Would I play it? Yeah... but I've played way better 2Us than that.

    The "does exist" argument makes no sense, evasion moves and OHKOs exist as well... come on! And Thunder Wave is one of the things that save the game from being as deep as a puddle.

    Go on Youtube and search for UU games: you'll find something. It historically is the main non-OU tier for tournaments; you might find a bit NU too, and it stops there.
    It historically is played more than any other non-OU tier because people have always been too lazy to go below: Ubers (which is disliked), OU, UU and that's always been more than enough.
    I don't agree with that, but that's the way it works...

    Two egregious lies, that's just about like me looking a priest into the eyes swearing I never pronounced profanities...
    Actually, that system didn't fail completely: it produced some good tiers, but the 2U revision was a disaster. Anyway, my point is that we never got even one single tier to become so popular as we wanted.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
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  24. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    That was out of the place but the (now) bold parts says a lot, this fact of no complex ban should get a real big discussion because they have sense and currently no one is willing to change the stuff because they are "set in stone", what if it was wrong all along?
     
  25. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    ???

    how is the 2U revision a disaster?

    how does the tiers not being super popular mean that this is a failure? And, you're a part of this community too, and one of the people involved in the RBY retiering. A small part of the onus is on you, just like it is on the rest of us, if the tiers are not as popular as we would like. We need to invite people to play, give them opportunities to play, and so on.
     
  26. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    The former 2U tier (the Birdless, Gyarados as water-type one) was way more enjoyable - you'll start the "oh it is subjective" story and bury this under some sand, keeping it the way you like it. The main thing about the tier is that it wasn't polluted with trapping moves, it was mostly about classic hit and run. We didn't push it enough (well, we had one good tournament - the one GGFan won), and it was forgotten before it even became a thing.

    Leader
    That's what I see under your name... and that eden's embrace's post is going to be remembered forever.
    My vote counts one, I make posts addressing issues- what else should I do? I can tell when I hit a wall with my head, what about you?
     
  27. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    The reason that stuff is "set in stone" is so that we spend our time discussing stuff which is as important as possible (talking firstly about the game, and then secondarily about stuff like bans). Spending forever talking about stuff that is largely settled is a waste of time.

    Anyway, I refer you to:
    #1 the last time complex bans got discussed, in this thread
    #2 the banworthiness guidelines, which is not yet set in stone, and discusses when stuff should be banned.

    Within the banworthiness guidelines, there are a few things to note
    #1 complex bans are not explicitly ruled out
    #2 the guidelines are primarily focused on Pokemon

    Also, I quote this:
    This is the section which would be relevant to banning wrap. Now, does it require a low amount of skill to execute? In some cases, yes (Dragonite in 1U), and in some cases no (Dragonair in 5U), although it's not an inarguable point. However, does Wrap undermine competitive play? I think that is a very big stretch at best.

    In two tiers, RBY 2U, and RBY 5U, is Wrap a dominant strategy, and in one other, RBY 1U, is it prevalent but far from dominant. In RBY 6U it is used but I'm not sure if one would describe it as prevalent. Partial trapping in a form other than wrap is prevalent in RBY 4U and to a smaller extent in RBY 3U, in the form of Fire Spin, and Clamp of course is prevalent in RBY 1U.

    Now, does Wrap undermine competitive play? In RBY 1U, I think maybe there is a case to make, but it is tough. Firstly, Wrap Dragonite is pretty uncommon, but in fairness, when it is used it arguably does undermine competitive play and I don't need to explain exactly why that's the case, it's pretty clear. However, Victreebel also uses Wrap in RBY 1U and I don't believe anyone thinks that it undermines competitive play there. Of course, it is obvious here to bring up AgiliWrap, which I can come to soon. In RBY 2U, does Wrap undermine competitive play? I don't know, I don't really play the metagame. In 3U, 4U, and 6U it doesn't undermine competitive play, but by default. In RBY 5U, not only does wrap (and agiliwrap) not undermine competitive play, if anything it enhances it, making the game more strategic, creating a tight game based on control and determining and executing long-term strategies.

    Now, does AgiliWrap undermine competitive play? In RBY 1U, maybe, in RBY 5U, it absolutely does not, and in RBY 2U, I don't know.
     
  28. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    really didn't like the old 2U. It is subjective. We don't tier directly based on enjoyment, we tier based on competitive depth (we have to ban stuff because it undermines competitive play). Implicit in that is the idea that "fun" = "lots of competitive depth", but I think that is reasonable.

    If you don't want me to lead, I can go.
     
  29. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    I think I explained why it had depth: it was about hit and running, which is pretty much what RBY tiers have always been about.
    Also, if you realize that you failed at putting a pokemon (Rhydon, and possibly more) into the right tier... why would you persist in tiering with the current criteria?

    "I can go"
    That's exactly what italian politicians say, and... they don't go. They live long too...
    The point is not about you going: it's about making sense, and you aren't listening. You are dropping Wambo Jambos talking like a manager (you’re not running some multinational company, again), evading the key points - just like those remarks about not listening to the community.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
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  30. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Alright. Hence I didn't want to ban anything..? See, just because I didn't enjoy the tier, didn't mean I wanted to take a hammer to it. It was a good tier by the standards of our tiering system, and I respected that, but it wasn't to my tastes.

    Of course I listen, but I am allowed to disagree. And even when I'm on the losing side of an argument I should be allowed to make my case anyway. Being a leader is not caving at the first sign of a fight. Being a leader is having a vision, having a dream, and bringing other people into the fold. Being a leader is having strong beliefs as well as a willingness (even a desire) to have those beliefs challenged. Being a leader is listening to the community and working to best implement what they believe in. All of that does not mean folding to everyone's demands immediately, and it doesn't preclude me from making an impassionated argument on the opposite side of where people in the community stand. It's with my leadership that PP is where it is, and everyone knows it to the point that those words never need to be said.

    If you really want me to go, I can go. I'm in the final year of university trying to acquire a masters degree anyway, I could do with the extra time.
     
  31. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    This didn't add anything new. The TL;DR of it is: "I don't care".
     
  32. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    The tl;dr is, I listen but I need more than 1 person bitching for me to change my actions, and it doesn't matter how many people there are I will only change my opinion on stuff based on merit and not by the number of people sharing an opinion.
     
  33. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    And if you want to get rid of me as a leader, then I say, go on then, do it.
     
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  34. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    I brought up the 40% of PO voters who wanted to ban AgiliWrap from RBY OU - which you never addressed, because "that's opinion based" (just like everything else, what a surprise!) to you and you're standing by the statement that "you won't change your opinion on stuff based on the number of people sharing an opinion", which not only means that there's no way in hell to change your opinion - it means that you didn't listen to me, to Troller, to Sceptross and to eden's embrace in the very few hours.
    Most guys just don't put up I fight like I'm doing, they just quit on you (leaving you and your circle doing your stuff) and you lose a player. And they sum up silently. Clear? Uh-Uh.
     
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  35. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    What do you want me to say about it?
    1) that's not a majority
    2) that's on PO, and how many years ago? It doesn't really have any relevance to today's playerbase

    listening to your opinion and changing my own opinion are different things. I can listen to what you're saying without changing my mind.

    If u wanna call for a specific action to take (e.g., do a wrap suspect or whatever) then say it, then we can debate the merits of it, and if enough people support doing it then we should do it because that's how we do things here.
     
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  36. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    "Most guys don't put up a fight"
    what do you call what everyone has been doing in the PPL threads over the past few days?
     
  37. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Also, can I point out the irony that you're quoting a post about stuff being set in stone which is with regards to something which, after being complained about, was changed (the tiers in PPL).
     
  38. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    This shows how warped your perception is: a few people in the inner circle did. I was talking about literally anyone who could be interested in playing 2U in this case - but if you didn't understand until this point, I'm probably wasting my time and that's the reason why people give up.
    Can't be explain myself better than this, it's pretty brutal already.

    Damn, you just don't listen. You don't listen.
    40% wanted to ban Wrap from a tier where it does BARELY SHOW, and you don't care because you think that once you have your 51% among the circle which is making decisions, your system entitles you to ignore whatever warning signal. Looking more and more like Matteo Renzi (the ultimate joke of italian politics who destroyed public services while claiming to be leftist, for reference).
    That's stubborness at its finest, it's far different from having an opinion especially when you fail to realize that you need to avoid those splits.

    You still didn't answer my remark on the credibility of this "great, perfect system" after we misplaced pokemon into tiers - Rhydon being the prime example - , simply because when you don't have answers you just drop irrelevant Jambo Wambos about how beatuiful your dreams are and how entitled you are to have opinions.
    So, if you won't answer this directly again: you said you want to step down, so why don't you? It would be an easier solution than explaining things to someone who just won't listen.

    And on a final note: I don't get why you're defending Wrap in 2U in order to make it possible in 5U, when that tier is likely to be very different anyway after changing 2U and everything else as a domino effect...
     
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  39. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    marcoasd, seriously. Like, really... what you are doing here has nothing to do with RBY 2U...
    I sincerely want you to state why you think the tier is "wrong" and what is "wrong" with it. Please... because honesstly, I have not been able to filter that from the book you've been writing, i'm sorry. I really wanna stay factual here. Please keep it to 2U. (pm me on discord if you want, I really want to know, because clearly we have different opinions here, I don't see the tiering as failed)

    From what I could gather, you made a lot of arguments based on history. What does it matter? What does it matter what people used to play in old RBY? (the mechanics were not even correct, neither for Body Slam nor for Wrap mostly, and RBY2K10 had Wrap banned, I believe, so of course UU looked different). In my honest opinion (even though it seems to be "classical" RBY; which I can see what you mean by that), I don't understand why every RBY tier has to be hit and run or whatever you called it? 3U is very much hit and run, current 2U isn't. What's the big deal? Does every tier have to be a copy of the other, but with weaker mons? (except 1U, because no need for type diversity, cause Chansey)

    I'm really trying to understand, please help me underatdn your point of view. And I assure you, flaming DA does not help me understand.

    respectfully, Lusch
     
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  40. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja Member

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    i wasn't going to comment but holy fucking shit, this spiel is something else. if your opinion is so different from the community's (and it most often is), you're not leading anyone. you're just using your position to get people to follow you.


    if you're a true leader right now, you respect the community's strong questions about the state of 2U and general ideas behind retiering as a whole - why did Rhydon end up in old 2U? is the 1U line in the proper place? do you actually know what you're doing, or just following what 'feels right' to you? can we have a discussion about the policies, when they've been shown to be faulty in places?

    I really don't know why the 1U line is placed where it is. Why is it not immediately below Slowbro? Or immediately below Jynx? Or much lower, after Moltres and Articuno? Can we discuss this and establish a proper, logical way to go about retiering, now that we have an opportunity to restart from scratch with 2U and lowtiers as a whole?
     
  41. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    Rhydon ended up in 2U because PP started the project when there were only a few people (even fewer) involved. And they just hated Rhydon at the time in 1U (did not have the clue they have now). It was a big mistake. Even I was not involved with it at the time (was around the time I joined PP). Had I been,I would have fought for Rhydon in 1U hard, believe me. The wrongdoing kept on, the banned the birds from 2U, a tier filled with viable water Pokemon to answer them (Tentacruel, Vaporen, Omastar). It is when 3U started, that more people joined the process (Peasounay and myself for example). I might be biased, but I think from then on, our tiering went great. Unfortunally the foundation was not solid...
    Regarding the line. I think voting on C ranks is fine. Where else would you draw the line? Really below Slowbro? no, man. Including stuff like Moltres, Articuno, Hypno, which have their niche, but are never seen??? also no, man. (my opinions)
     
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  42. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    The whole point regarding where to draw the line is that Pokemon above the line are good enough in a given tier that a player could use them fairly frequently in the tier without being put at a very significant disadvantage. That's the reason for it. The purpose of that is so that whatever a player's favourite Pokemon is, there is a tier where they can viably run it.

    And yeah, Lusch is 100% right. Once 3U got going our processes I think improved quite a bit and we avoided using councils for anything really, the community really was in control of decision making from then on. And yes, Lusch is definitely right in saying that letting Rhydon down to 2U, and banning birds, was a mistake, and also that from then on the tiering was very good.
     
  43. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Also, the importance of discussing 5U, even if eventually that metagame will probably change by the time we get to retiering it, is that it provides a data point when we want to talk about Wrap, and AgiliWrap, when we want to ask about whether they are so unhealthy that we should remove either of them from the game entirely.
     
  44. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Which book exactly? The book about refusing to ban TWave or to allow the likes of Wrap, OHKO and evasion moves?

    The fact that the historical memory of RBY is vanishing (Isa is somewhat the last other remaining guy, not willing to fight and mocking and possibly trolling us instead) is a problem too.
    I played and tried to understand the classic tiers (not that we succeeded completely, I have to admit, but at least we showed some respect) before trying to make them better, and it looks like most people just want to directly make their thing right now - without any yardstick whatsoever.
    Body Slam mechs don't have all that much of an impact on lower tiers, I don't know why you even bring that up.

    And you pretty much said it yourself: 2U is different from OU because it doesn't have Recover trio, I don't know what happens with lower tiers and I don't support any kind of dominant threat: 3U might be the same as 2U, 4U might be about Amnesia and 5U about AgiliWrap DNair and fine with it.
    It's only pretty natural for 2U to be hit and run, considering the pokemon which it includes (unless you want it to be a pathetic Wrap party...).

    Flaming DA? Lol where? Just telling him in every possible way that we're hitting a wall after he told me that I'm just as much at fault as he is, so he doesn't care that much?

    This describes the specifics of major errors that happened in the tiering process (not that keeping two separate tiers for birds and the rest of 2U would be a mistake: the birds got simply overshadowed by Tentacruel, which speaks volumes), and they aren't unlikely to happen AGAIN only because you and Peasounay joined - of course it will help, but it's a bit arrogant to suppose it will be the cure of all problems.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  45. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    I called "set in stone" this state because when Marcoasd brought up the complex ban, the answer has been "this is not how we re-tier". What should i say? When i arrived on pp that was chosen already and today i don't see any good (to me) reason to avoid complex bans, but just "we work this way" ok. If you are so scared of banning Tentacruel's Wrap only in 2u because could drop to 3u, just ban the move again if it looks broken there too, until you find Tentacruel's place with or without Wrap. I really don't understand why you are so afraid of changing your "guidelines", birds are broken without Tentacruel? There's a problem? Fix again! Even if it takes time...
     
  46. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    The tiering went better because we all agreed on almost everything: the interest got lower and lower and we didn't face just as many issues with power level other than Nidoking and maybe Dragonair.
    2U is more complicated (and causes domino effects too) with a huge number of tricky decisions which we don't agree on, but you're happy thumbupping each others and going ahead, wearing blinders and pretending everything is ok...
     
  47. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja Member

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    Okay, then we need to make sure the foundation is solid. Which is what I'm doing by asking a lot of questions and double checking every assumption about how to go about retiering.

    Well, I think this is a point worth debating. First of all, do we know exactly how good all of those less common pokémon really are? I have an Hypno build that's been working well for me, since you brought him up. He's perfectly 1U-viable, in my opinion/experience. But more importantly, SPL has shown Victreebell is perfectly 1U-viable AND much stronger than some of the pokemon above the line, yet he sits below the line. I haven't experimented with DNite, but I'm willing to bet not many, if any at all, have experimented with him at the top level recently, and we might be surprised if we try him more seriously. I'm not saying all of the ranks are wrong, far from it; but some things might - and will, inevitably - be found to be off over time, as new experimentation and metagame trends evolve, ESPECIALLY around the 'just viable enough' line. What do we do when that happens? Do we have a contingency plan other than blaming our stupid past selves for not having a "solid foundation"? I don't think we do, and we NEED to have one, or this debate will happen again and again and again.
    Do we want our lowtiers to change and evolve and have mons rising and dropping regularly? If yes, establish a plan to make that happen, and establish how often you want it to happen. Do we want our lowtiers to be static and established so that they can develop better? Then find an answer for the inevitable cases where you mess up (Drowzee dropping to 5U is a shining example, you cannot claim that tiering went much smoother when slip ups like that one still happened), and find an answer for whatever happens when the metagame shifts and some stuff falls in and out of viability.

    I believe these questions are of much larger importance than the specific issue of Wrap and Tentacruel right now.
     
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  48. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    That might be true. About Victreebel. We on PP had a vote at some point when we started retiering 2U. We voted on the C-Rank Pokemon. We in this case was anyone particpating regularly enough in seasons so that they had a ceratin amount of points (don't remember how many). Victreebel was voted by the majority of people to not be 1U worthy and thus ended up in 2U (for what it's worth, I voted it 1U,wasn't enough...). Hypno is "viable" in the broader sense (which is why I grouped him with the birds), but still there are not too many reasons to use him, if you're really honest.
    Drowzee in 5U I cannot comment too much cause I never played 5U. The explanation as to why he ended up there is pretty simple. You had better Psychic types available in the higher tiers. (2U Hypno and Kadabra, 3U Mr. Mime, 4U Abra). You might argue Drowzee is not worse than Abra, but in the 4U environment where speed is worth gold, Abra was the choice players went with.

    I'm going to answer marcoasd some time later or tomorrow. I'm relatively busy today and want to keep it businessmenlike, like really I don't mean to attack anyone, no need to get defensive.
     
  49. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    This piece possibly explains why I think that the current "system" failed better than I did, and I think we should forget it entirely: we got 5/6 tiers and had fun with them - you can always write them somewhere and play them as RBY OU friendly matches.

    We need something more static, involving more players so we can develop it.
     
  50. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Alright, good, nothing wrong with that.

    If we do choose to use complex or non-transitive bans, then I would really hope that everyone involved understands the consequences of that.
    Sure.

    When our opinion changes of whether something belongs above or below a line, we do what we did the first time: we discuss and vote on changes, and then if anything changes then we test the tier below with the changes, and so on. It's slower and less dynamic than a usage based system, but it's the only really logical way of doing things.

    You're perfectly right in this post, basically you're acknowledging something which isn't talked about much, which is that what's legal in lower tiers will very likely change over time, and the further down u go the more likely it is that the metagame will change at some point in the future. That is the nature of doing a sort of tiering where we can make changes.
    This is why I would like it if like anyone at all actually tried to discuss who should be in the voter pool on who gets to make changes, but whenever I do threads about it literally noone responds.
    TIN is talking about how good Drowzee is in 4U (saying it should not be legal in 5U). I agree w/ him. We didn't realise how good Drowzee was in 4U until the 4U world championship, but it's definitely a good Pokemon in the meta.
     

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