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Community Fortree (ADV's Fuchsia) Cup Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'ADV OU Seasons' started by tjdaas, Jul 20, 2018.

  1. tjdaas

    tjdaas Moderator

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    Fortree Cup Discussion Thread

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    ADV Cups were recently started due to the large and still growing ADV Community on our site and a significant amount of players being interested in playing the ADV versions of the highly popular RBY ones. Most of the RBY Cups could be easily translated into the ADV Cups, see Mossdeep and Dewford Cup. However, Fuchsia Cup (the ADV name is Fortree Cup courtesy of Ninjax) is the only problem, because the format has changed over the years with supporters for every one of the current and previous formats. I have discussed the Cup with some staff members and RBY players and all gave different insights into which format is the best to choose.

    So first a bit of history about Fuchsia Cup. It started out as a tour to find the best RBY player of PP, PO and Smogon. However, PO died and, moreover, most of the communities have grown together with a lot of pp players winning smogon tours, e.g. Roudolf winning RBY GC. In order to fix this problem, Peasounay had changed the format to 8 players that were invited by winning and doing well in tours on all 3 sites. This also increased the number of players from 3 to 8, which was done to increase the hype of the tour. This year, after the community disliked the new list of qualifications, Linkin Karp introduced a new, interesting and good format, which a lot of people liked. However, this made the tour open instead of invitation based.

    Originally, the Cups were created with the idea to have the 3v3 open/invitational symmetry, which this new format breaks. This is of course possible and should be done if it is the best option, but we should not forget the history of Cups and PP. Furthermore, the main reason for making this thread is to establish the framework of this tour by a thoughtful discussion, which will only be slightly tweaked in later version (for example, Dizno is trying to tweak the format of Dewford Cup and due to an idea of Cowboy Dan, we probably have an almost perfect version next year). This is to avoid changing the format enormously, because otherwise winning the Cup one year is different from winning it the other years. For example, the last year's winner of Fuchsia Cup won a 8 man double elimination invitational, whereas the new winner will win an open battle royale tour, which are two completely different tours but share the same trophy and name. This is something I want to avoid, when possible. A side note, this does not mean that I dislike Karp's format and this last problem can be easily solved by retiring the name Fuchsia Cup and naming it differently (and changing the Trophy).

    So, let's move to the main point of this post. These are the 3 formats that I have discussed and are considering:
    1. Karps Format: a Battle Royale tournament that consists of several rounds where players challenge each other and need a certain differential (#Wins-#Losses) to reach the next round and are eliminated if their differential is -2.
    2. Invite-based Battle Royale: Same format as above but now players are invited if they reached the still to be determined conditions. In order to not have a high overlap with the other invitational tours (most recent Cups and WC winners and MT, Season and WC winners), DA and I had proposed to use the top 16 of the Player Ranking as way of to qualify for the cup.
    3. Old Format: 8 players get invited by winning or doing good in 8 tours on both Smogon and Pokemon Perfect (PO is removed). I have discussed it with Lusch and we came out with these 8 tours: 1. Smogon ADV Cup, 2. EverGrande Cup Champion, 3. Highest Score SPL, 4. Latest ADV Season Winner, 5. Smogon Global Championship winner, 6. Second to last ADV Season Winner, 7. Most Recent Smogon ADV Seasonals Winner, 8. Third to last ADV Season Winner (this list subjected to change).

    In order to spark the discussion, I'll give my personal opinion about my preferred option and will also give some pros and cons about each format (so they are biased).

    Firstly, I'm a big fan of the 3 v 3 symmetry, because it looks nice and make sense. Moreover, due to the low amount of official invitational tours we have on PP, it is nice to have some invitational tours that are really high level, where people would love to participate in and try the hardest to qualify for and win. That is why I'm not a big fan from the open format of Karp, although his format is great. However, you could say that Master Tours, due to seeding, are not fully open because a new player has a high chance to get paired with a RBY or ADV legend, which means that they need to wait full month for the next one.

    The second one is a compromise between Karps format and an invitational, which is in my eyes a good format. But a problem will be the significant overlap between the top 16 of the newest Player Ranking and the qualified players of the other invitational Cups.

    The last one keeps the original idea (a big plus imo) of a tournament between the 2 communities (RIP PO) and let's it stay an invitational. However, it is not free of any problems, because making a good ranking of the seeds, which is fair and doesn't favour Smogon tours over PP ones, is difficult. Another problem is that some tours will not exist indefinitely, for example both the ADV GC and Seasonals will have their first run this year and we don't know if they will exist next year (but they probably will). This was also one of the concerns for not including Callous Cup, other than it being an invite-only tour, which means that not everyone can try to qualify via that cup. A smaller problem is the way to approach the situation of one person having multiple seeds. What happened in the RBY version was that the player with multiple seeds got his highest seed and then the number 2 of the corresponding lower seeded tour got in on that lower seed (for example if asta wins the latest season (seed 4) than he has both seed 4 and seed 1 (adv cup) and the number two of the season (linear for example) gets seed 4 instead.) In this way we value the second place of the season more than the second place of the ADV Cup, but this easily solvable.

    So, what are your opinion about the formats? What is your preferred format and why? Do you have an idea of your own that you want to share? Please try to be civil and don't attack people for having different opinions.
     
  2. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    I'm giving my opinion, even though the ADV version probably does not affect me (at least this year), because the RBY version does in fact affect me, since I have won the last version of the Cup which was already a different version than the two iterations before that, but at least was kept in the same spirit. Yet it is a completely different one from the current iteration.

    For me pesonally the most important thing is that we keep Cups consistent over different tiers. That means Fuchsia in RBY and Fortree in ADV should have the same format, regardless of which variant you pick. This should not be a problam because every tour that is in question for a means of qualifying for those Cups according t the list you give is present for both RBY and ADV now (with ADV getting the GC). It's more of an aestethical question, but I just think it's nicer to have the Cups being consistent with each others counterparts from the other generations.

    My next important point in both RBY and ADV (and possible other tiers in the future, who knows)is that the formats of those Cups should not be changed around anymore. I think it is not really contorversial, but still, winners of those Cups should be comparable and the trophy they get should obviously represent the same (or at least close to the same) achievement. With that being said, I'm okay if Fuchsia (and, by extension Fortree, which should be the same format imo) stays the same format as it is now, as long as that does not change anymore. I'malso okay with Fuchsia (and thus Fortree changes back to the old format, again, as long as it then keeps locked at it.

    Those two points should always be followed, regardless what decision is made, at least in my opinion.

    Now about the actual question of the OP: The format itself. Personally, I don't really mind having 4 open Cups and 2 invitational Cups. Symmetry is nice and all, but I don't see a way to structure qualification for each Cup the way that the qualificant pool will look very different for each of the invitational Cups. This is simply because the players who win Seasons on PP/Classic Cups on Smogon/place high in the PP player rankings etc. are often the same group of players, just because they are the best at their tier. And since invitationals should aim to invite the best, the playerpool will likely look pretty similar no matter how you do it (and it should be that way, too). This is why I think 2 invitational Cups are enough, it suffices if those elite players play out their Champion twice a year, both for spectators and for those players (you don't want to play all the top threats too often, you know? The balance has to fit). Hence my pick would be to use Karp's format for Fuchsia/Fortree from now on.

    To summarize:
    • keep the formats of the Cups consistent with their countepart from another generation
    • keep the formats of the Cups fixed (with minor changes to optimize formats being allowed)
    • I'd use Karp's format for Fortree
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2018
  3. Linkin Karp

    Linkin Karp 从来没有幸运,但有时橡胶鸭子。 Season Host

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    great points from Lusch. I've actually chosen this open format because I don't want it to be an invitational for the same 8 players from Indigo/Vermilion again. we never had the symmetry. the open cups are in January, March and September, with a whole season being invite-only in addition to Vermilion in November. with the 2 remaining invitationals being 6 months apart, the situation now is more symmetrical.

    some points about invitationals: first, I recall Lutra (or DA?) saying they specifically want the format to change because a PP tour shouldn't require winning stuff on PO/Smogon. generally a very isolationist view, but regardless of that, we're in 2018 and the playerbases of all three sites (lol PO playerbase) are effectively the same, which makes it pointless considering Fuchsia was first introduced to find the "best player of all 3 communities".

    the replacement format has pretty much all the issues that invitationals have. aside from cinderella stories like Huston in Saffron, Indigo is already a top x player rankings tournament, and there is already barely enough distinction between Indigo and Vermilion since most of the old winners that aren't actively playing cups anymore won't join this one either.

    cups are meant as fun tours where the playerbase, especially the weaker players, can try something exciting for once, as opposed to getting 3-0'd by Troller in MT R1 again. by locking out the average player, who doesn't put an enormous amount of time into not only doing good in, but outright WINNING tours, from half of these formats, we really alienate a large part of our community. and let's be honest, who wants to see the same people duking it out again and again in another similar tour? half of them would decline and it doesn't even have that sense of achievement that Indigo, the "cup of cups" carries, it's just another boring trophy.

    lastly, imagine Saffron being invite-based for a moment. seems horrendous, doesn't it? there's a certain part of the playerbase that wants to play the Battle Royale format, and another part that has qualified through some condition. I can't imagine the overlap being too big, and on the other hand, we're actively alienating people who want to try the format. people think it's fun but we're literally telling them "no, you're not good enough, come back after you've won all those standard single elim tours". in the end we'd reach an Indigo situation where so many people decline that we end up inviting #30 of the Player Rankings and half of the people will only reluctantly play the tour but not care enough to decline (and if they then drop out in the middle this would be fatal to the format). why not play it with people that really want to play it in the first place.

    something else about the specific Battle Royale format: there's a reason this tour runs during the summer vacations, being that it's the only one without deadlines or fixed matchups. it's as liberal as a tour gets, it's run by the players and not the host, and accordingly people can also choose to enter or not to enter depending on the amount of time they want to sacrifice for mons during the summer season. let's keep it that way.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
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  4. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I think breaking the 3v3 symmetry is fine, ultimately having more of our tournaments open to people is generally a good thing. Karp's format is very cool.
     
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  5. tjdaas

    tjdaas Moderator

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    From the above discussion, I have concluded that Fortree Cup will be open Battle Royale style tournament like the current RBY version made by Linkin Karp. Thanks for your input everyone!

    As Karp said above, the format gives a high flexibility to the players and doesn't have deadline. That is why the tour should preferably be held in a summer vacation, which it will. Therefore, The Fortree Cup signups will go live on next monday (the 30th of July). I'll discuss with Marcop9923 and Dizno who of us three is going to host it and the other two tours, The Lilycove Cup (Saffron) and EverGrande Cup (Indigo).

    I'll leave this thread open for 24hrs in case people still want to respond and or say something on the matter.
     

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