1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome to Pokemon Perfect, Guest!

    Our motto is Pokémon Practice makes Pokémon Perfect. We are a competitive-battling community that encourages the development of players and their ideas, and fosters positive and respectful attitudes. We love Collaboration (working together), Competition (getting stronger), and Communication (being informed).

    You are free to post everywhere, unless the thread explicitly states otherwise (usually in the case of a vote), and there are no private forums whatsoever. We just require you to not make multiple accounts. Let us greet you by posting a thread in the Introduce Yourself! forum.

  3. Tiers

    View Introduction to Tiers if you don't know what tiers are. Pokémon Perfect tiers are named differently to those on Smogon. A numeral followed by the letter U, e.g. 1U, 2U, 3U, represents a main tier on Pokémon Perfect – the '1' of '1U' representing the tier level. For a tier to be a main tier, it must be balanced (nothing is too powerful and game-breaking) and diverse enough (include a variety of Pokémon and strategies). A numeral followed by the letter P, e.g. 1P, 2P, 3P contain all Pokémon that are deemed overpowered in the respective 1U, 2U, 3U tiers. The 1st tier level allows Pokémon that are banned in the 2nd level, and this process continues down. Read the tier list, and in-depth explanations of the tiers naming system and tiering system. Also check out our analyses for all tiers.

  4. Tournaments

    RBY 1U Seasons and its master tournaments are responsible for starting up the community, and tournaments continue to play a big role in maintaining interest in the forums. Signups Open gives you a list of tournaments you can join, and Ongoing lists tournaments that you might want to follow. Additionally, you can tap to find out approximate Schedules for tournaments.

    For historical threads, check out Signups Closed, Finished tournaments and Results. We also have Nominations, Voting and Event threads for exhibitions – past and present.

RBY OU / 1U (OverUsed) Dragonite [Done]

Discussion in 'Individual Analyses' started by Disaster Area, Sep 21, 2015.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,385
    Likes Received:
    2,232
    Dragonite [​IMG]
    Type: Dragon / Flying
    Stats: 91 | 134 | 95 | 100| 80


    Introduction

    In spite of Dragonite's monstrous base stats, it is a fairly rare sight in 1U. It cannot make use of either of its STAB types effectively, its Speed causes it to be outrun by several 1U staples, and its typing leaves it with a major weakness to Ice, one of the most common attacking types in the metagame with only few useful resistances or immunities. Nevertheless, its combination of Wrap and Agility is incredibly powerful, albiet very tedious, meriting itself a place in the 1U tier.

    Sets

    AgiliWrap

    Dragonite
    - Wrap
    - Agility
    - Surf / Blizzard
    - Hyper Beam

    Set Details

    The idea of the set is very simple—Dragonite finds an opportunity to set up withAgility, either against a sleeping or frozen Pokémon or one it can force out such as Golem and Rhydon. Early-game it can be used as a pivot. Using its immunity to Ground, it can come in occasionally during the early-game, when it would be too early to want to sweep usually, allowing it to use Wrap, and then gain a free switch, giving you momentum. Late-game, its objective is to sweep or at least do large damage, allowing its teammates to finish the job. To do this involves finding an opportunity to set up an Agility, and then let Wrap do its work. Surf and Blizzard are used to do additional damage to Rock-types; Blizzard also hits Exeggutor but does not OHKO Rhydon and Golem and has a much higher chance of missing. Hyper Beam can be used at the end of a Wrap cycle, allowing it to KO a foe at a higher HP point, allowing it to preserve more Wrap PP, though it carries the small risk of another Pokémon switching into it, and then statusing or KOing it. Body Slam is an alternative over Hyper Beam, although it does less damage. This is due to the lack of a recharge effect (which can be taken advantage of by the foe), as well as the much-improved accuracy, whilst also having an useful secondary effect.

    Other Options

    Generally, all Dragonite sets should run Wrap + Agility, as other Pokémon can otherwise do what it can better. That being said, there are a fair few additional options on the AgiliWrap set. Ice Beam is another alternative to Surf and Blizzard, letting it use a strong Ice-type attack with a lesser risk of missing. Similarly, Double-Edge is an option over Hyper Beam and Body Slam, as it is Dragonite's most powerful Normal-type attack without a recharge. Thunder Wave is a serious consideration despite being difficult to fit, allowing Dragonite to spread status early-game when it functions as a pivot. Notable targets include Tauros and Zapdos in particular, as well as Gengar and Alakazam. Thunder and Thunderbolt are alternative attacks, notable for the additional damage they can do versus Water-types in particular, but it's generally better off just taking advantage of AgiliWrap in most instances. Fire Blast is a poor option, but its ability to burn Gengar (making it no longer able to counter Dragonite) makes it explorable; however, it is not recommended.

    Checks and Counters

    Gengar - The only fully-evolved Ghost-type in RBY, its immunity to Wrap naturally makes it a great check. Gengar's Thunderbolt KOes Dragonite before it can KO it with any of its attacks, neglecting the possibility of a rare freeze from Blizzard. Furthermore, even it it's put to sleep, it can wake up whilst the Dragonite user is locked into Wrap.

    Paralysis - If Dragonite is paralysed, it struggles to consistently take advantage of Wrap, making it vulnerable. Nearly every reasonably viable 1U Pokémon can prevent Dragonite from setting up on it without being paralysed or OHKOed.

    Stall it
    - If Dragonite does manage to set up an Agility, it may sometimes not be feasible to let a Pokémon stay in versus it and wait for Dragonite to miss, so PP stalling its Wrap PP is a viable option—particularly if you carry a Rock-type. Always make sure to count the PP, so as to avoid the PP rollover. This means that when Wrap is down to 0/32 PP, it must be able to finish its Wrap cycle without KOing the target—you must not switch until then, otherwise its PP rolls over to 63. Being very predictable in how you switch around as Dragonite stalls with Wrap is risky, albeit less so when Dragonite has a valuable Agility set up. The opponent can utilise the opportunity for a free switch and gain an advantage from that.

    Ice-type moves - This generally ties in with not preventing Dragonite set up; only Pokémon that are Ice-type are powerful enough to OHKO Dragonite, though other Pokémon such as Chansey, Tauros, and Starmie can inflict huge amounts of damage versus it with their attacks too. However, if Dragonite is unstatused, they should attempt to paralyse it first usually with Thunder Wave or Body Slam.

    Miscellanious - Various other rarer tactics can be effective versus Dragonite. Any sort of residual damage, such as poison, burn, and Leech Seed all put it on a timer—although the last can be removed by switching. Dragonite also has a weakness to Rock-type moves, though none can OHKO it, and only Rhydon and Golem use them in 1U, both of which still lose to Dragonite in most circumstances. Finally, using Explosion or Self-Destruct can be used in more desperate situations.

    For a discussion of wrap mechanics and simulator implementation, see this post.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 17, 2018
    marcoasd likes this.
  2. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

    Joined:
    May 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,970
    Likes Received:
    1,212
    Cool stuff man, I think it looks good.

    Maybe we could discuss the differences in Wrap's implementation on the different sims, given that they are both wrong but in different ways. I know you know what the differences are but I'll run through them anyway so they're here

    PO gives no warning whatsoever of Wrap's end. This allows Dnite to use HBeam with near impunity, and also screwing over Surf-weak mons that try to stall out Wrap.

    PS alerts both players to Wrap's end regardless of what the players do. This allows for the defender to predict the Dnite using another move, ideally catching a HBeam with something that lives it. However this information is gained without the risk of taking more damage from Wrap.

    The cartridge mechanic revolves around the fight button. Players are not explicitly alerted to Wrap's end, but may infer this from what happens when they hit fight. If Wrap is in effect then selecting fight will automatically skip to the damage phase, forcing the target to take another round of damage. If it has ended the player will get to select a move as per normal, or even go back and select a pokemon to switch to. So to find out if Wrap has ended you have to risk taking another round of Wrap damage in the event it hasn't.

    The problem with the cartridge mechanic is the fight button, something all current simulators currently lack due to it being unnecessary outside this specific mechanic.
     
  3. Sobi

    Sobi hi Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2016
    Messages:
    179
    Likes Received:
    17
    [​IMG]
    Dragonite [​IMG]
    Type: Dragon / Flying
    Stats: 91 | 134 | 95 | 100| 80


    Introduction

    In spite of Dragonite's monstrous base stats, it is a fairly rare sight in 1U. It cannot make use of either of its STAB types effectively, its Speed causes it to be outrun by several 1U staples, and its typing leaves it with a major weakness to Ice, one of the most common attacking types in the metagame with only few useful resistances or immunities. Nevertheless, its combination of Wrap and Agility is incredibly powerful, albiet very tedious, meriting itself a place in the 1U tier.

    Sets

    AgiliWrap

    Dragonite
    - Wrap
    - Agility
    - Surf / Blizzard
    - Hyper Beam

    Set Details

    The idea of the set is very simple—Dragonite finds an opportunity to set up withAgility, either against a sleeping or frozen Pokémon or one it can force out such as Golem and Rhydon. Early-game it can be used as a pivot. Using its immunity to Ground, it can come in occasionally during the early-game, when it would be too early to want to sweep usually, allowing it to use Wrap, and then gain a free switch, giving you momentum. Late-game, its objective is to sweep or at least do large damage, allowing its teammates to finish the job. To do this involves finding an opportunity to set up an Agility, and then let Wrap do its work. Surf and Blizzard are used to do additional damage to Rock-types; Blizzard also hits Exeggutor but does not OHKO Rhydon and Golem and has a much higher chance of missing. Hyper Beam can be used at the end of a Wrap cycle, allowing it to KO a foe at a higher HP point, allowing it to preserve more Wrap PP, though it carries the small risk of another Pokémon switching into it, and then statusing or KOing it. Body Slam is an alternative over Hyper Beam, although it does less damage. This is due to the lack of a recharge effect (which can be taken advantage of by the foe), as well as the much-improved accuracy, whilst also having an useful secondary effect.

    Other Options

    Generally, all Dragonite sets should run Wrap + Agility, as other Pokémon can otherwise do what it can better. That being said, there are a fair few additional options on the AgiliWrap set. Ice Beam is another alternative to Surf and Blizzard, letting it use a strong Ice-type attack with a lesser risk of missing. Similarly, Double-Edge is an option over Hyper Beam and Body Slam, as it is Dragonite's most powerful Normal-type attack without a recharge. Thunder Wave is a serious consideration despite being difficult to fit, allowing Dragonite to spread status early-game when it functions as a pivot. Notable targets include Gengar in particular, as well as Starmie, Lapras, and various other Pokémon. Thunder and Thunderbolt are alternative attacks, notable for the additional damage they can do versus Water-types in particular, but it's generally better off just taking advantage of AgiliWrap in most instances. Fire Blast is a poor option, but its ability to burn Gengar (making it no longer able to counter Dragonite) makes it explorable; however, it is not recommended.

    Checks and Counters

    Gengar - The only fully-evolved Ghost-type in RBY, its immunity to Wrap naturally makes it a great check. Gengar's Thunderbolt KOes Dragonite before it can KO it with any of its attacks, neglecting the possibility of a rare freeze from Blizzard. Furthermore, even it it's put to sleep, it can wake up whilst the Dragonite user is locked into Wrap.

    Paralysis - If Dragonite is paralysed, it struggles to consistently take advantage of Wrap, making it vulnerable. Nearly every reasonably viable 1U Pokémon can prevent Dragonite from setting up on it without being paralysed or OHKOed.

    Stall it
    - If Dragonite does manage to set up an Agility, it may sometimes not be feasible to let a Pokémon stay in versus it and wait for Dragonite to miss, so PP stalling its Wrap PP is a viable option—particularly if you carry a Rock-type. Always make sure to count the PP, so as to avoid the PP rollover. This means that when Wrap is down to 0/32 PP, it must be able to finish its Wrap cycle without KOing the target—you must not switch until then, otherwise its PP rolls over to 63. Being very predictable in how you switch around as Dragonite stalls with Wrap is risky, albeit less so when Dragonite has a valuable Agility set up. The opponent can utilise the opportunity for a free switch and gain an advantage from that.

    Ice-type moves - This generally ties in with not preventing Dragonite set up; only Pokémon that are Ice-type are powerful enough to OHKO Dragonite, though other Pokémon such as Chansey, Tauros, and Starmie can inflict huge amounts of damage versus it with their attacks too. However, if Dragonite is unstatused, they should attempt to paralyse it first usually with Thunder Wave or Body Slam.

    Miscellanious - Various other rarer tactics can be effective versus Dragonite. Any sort of residual damage, such as poison, burn, and Leech Seed all put it on a timer—although the last can be removed by switching. Dragonite also has a weakness to Rock-type moves, though none can OHKO it, and only Rhydon and Golem use them in 1U, both of which still lose to Dragonite in most circumstances. Finally, using Explosion or Self-Destruct can be used in more desperate situations.

    For a discussion of wrap mechanics and simulator implementation, see this post.

    gee pee wun / wun
     
  4. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,037
    Likes Received:
    563
    I think Thunder Wave should be added as its own set. AgiliWrap Dragonite wants to set up by itself and sweep, Thunder Wave Dragonite doesn't need to setup and wants to use Wrap to draw in something fast and get it paralyzed for a teammate (or teammates) that is most effective with paralysis spread (Rhydon, other Wrap abusers, SD sweepers, etc.).

    It's the most reliable way to pressure Tauros to take paralysis too, as a paralyzed lead and slow 6th will leave it the only thing faster than an unboosted Dragonite on its team.
     
    Disaster Area and EB0LA like this.
  5. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2015
    Messages:
    431
    Likes Received:
    478
    In a similar vein as Enigami suggested regarding Thunder Wave Dragonite, the description should definitely mention Tauros as the number one target for Thunder Wave. Mentioning Starmie and particularly Lapras in that OO section as premier targets is pretty ridiculous. I know targeting Tauros is always a gamble because of the critOHKO or freeze (if they go for Blizzard, some might Body Slam aiming for that PAR), but with Starmie it's even worse since Blizzard can atually knock without a crit in addition to that. And even more importantly it is easier (read: less costly) to PAR Starmie with Starmie/Alakazam/Chansey and even Snorlax than trying with Dnite. Paralyzing Lapras with Dragonite as a last ditch effort for a teammate might be the play in some rare instances, but it really should not be listed, period.

    I'm not sure if T-Wave Dnite should be its own set, but at least "correct" the description of T-Wave in the OO section according to Enigami's (and my) input.

    That part is fine, just change the targets for T-Wave basically (you can keep Gengar I suppose) and also shift this part up above any other OO, mentioning it first, since it really is Dragonite's best OO (better than Ice Beam for sure).

    On another note, I personally would change the Slashes on the special attack slot, going "Blizzard/Surf" instead of the other way around. the reason being that Blizzard is the strongest attack vs neutral targets (Snorlax/Tauros) if you don't want to risk that Hyper Beam as well as being the strongest option vs Eggy. Yes, Surf OHKOs the Rocks, but Blizzard already does huge damage and I always felt like losing too much coverage against more important opponents in exchange for it.
     
    Disaster Area likes this.
  6. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2013
    Messages:
    1,402
    Likes Received:
    866
    Used TWave Dnite in: Jolteon/Victreebel/Cloyster/Zapdos/Tauros/Dragonite

    Starmie is just a terrible encounter, just like Gengar and GolDon are; Victreebel or Tauros will most likely try to paralyse it (or Cloyster's boom to KO).

    TWave's main targets are: Zapdos, Alakazam, Gengar and Tauros; Tauros isn't even your favourite target, TWave happens to be a better option than Agility against Tauros because it will be crippled even in case Wrap will miss at some point.
    So, I'd slash Agility/TWave but it can be used over any move but Wrap, I decided to drop Hyper Beam instead.
     
  7. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2015
    Messages:
    431
    Likes Received:
    478
    Wanted to make an edit to my post [marco came before me] stating Zapdos as a potential target as well (still think Tauros is the main target). In addition wanted to mention which move to drop for T-Wave, which in my eyes is Agility. You use one or the other, I feel. You obviously don't drop Wrap but you don't want to go without your Ice/Water coverage and Hype Beam is just too useful as well imo.
    Alakazam as a T-Wave target works if you have Agility too I guess. And on that particular team you postet, yea, you might need to sacrifice Dnite's status to PAR Zam. But in general you should use something else to PAR Zam(and Starmie) than Dnite. I don't agree with mentioning Alakazam as a target in the analysis because of that, quite simply...

    The purpose of T-Wave Dnite is to catch something with PAR that otherwise is hard to PAR (ergo Tauros). If you want to PAR Zam for your Wrap Squad, use your own Zam...
     
  8. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2013
    Messages:
    1,402
    Likes Received:
    866
    Targets depend on the team: S4+Dnite might consider Tauros as main target, but Wrap builds usually are weak to Psychic (hence Alakazam), Zapdos, Gengar and Starmie.
    Starmie is a bad target because it outspeeds and can OHKO, that's the reason why I paired Agility and TWave for that team; on the other hand, you don't need to Agility up in order to TWave Alakazam or Zapdos.
    You're living on a 75% chance, but that's the pice of using wrappers anyway.
    If you look at the composition at the team, it's pretty blatant that the team is weaker to Alakazam, Zapdos, Gengar and Starmie than it is to Tauros.

    I can't use Alakazam to TWave Zam because I don't include one on that team: if I face an Alakazam lead, there are good chances that I'll get to trade TWave with Jolteon; Zapdos is my second chance and Dnite is the third, and Tauros is there too.
    Dragonite doesn't have Hyper Beam on that team because there are other things that are meant to sweep more reliably, Dragonite is mostly a facilitator that can switch into EQs (Electrics and Psychics as well, in case), TWave specific targets and put things in range.

    TL;DR: it looks like Dnite's moveset and other stuff are spanned for standard teams, while Dnite is traditionally used on Exeggutor-less Wrap teams too.
     
  9. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2015
    Messages:
    431
    Likes Received:
    478
    Of course targets are team dependant, as mentioned in my previous post Zam might be a target for your specific team. I never questioned that particular part. But this is a thread meant to be more general, which is why I would not support Alakazam getting a mention as a premier T-Wave target for Dragonite.
    And since this is what this thread is about, we should keep it at that and not mention specific teams and base our argument on those (at least not if there are other teams that the particluar Pokemon/Set is viable on, which is definitely the case here).
     
  10. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2013
    Messages:
    1,402
    Likes Received:
    866
    Cloyster+Victreebel+Dnite is a core I've been facing for 5 years, my team didn't come out of the blue.
     
  11. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,037
    Likes Received:
    563
    Starmie IS a valid Thunder Wave target, but a desperate one you'd prefer not to gamble on if you don't have to. But since Wrap teams handle Starmie a lot better when it's paralyzed, that gamble can pay off. Lapras definitely is a nonsensical target, you'd only risk certain death to paralyze it in very specific scenarios, i.e. a slower teammate in the back would be KO'd by Lapras but will KO if it gets the first move and could close out the game from there.

    marcoasd's spot on about a Wrap team's weaknesses. Onix (borderline unviable as it is) is technically a wrapper that removes the Electric weakness and somewhat improves the Gengar one, but the Psychic problem is barely helped at all (technically gives you a TBolt/TWave switch-in that can be used if the target is para'd) and Onix is better suited on the even more unwieldly ToxicWrap archetype. I'm curious about what lead Jolteon is for on that team though, I think I'd sooner go Alakazam, Starmie or maybe Jynx to try to push status on the opponent's Psychic lead rather than scare out Starmie and leave it fresh to disrupt your wrappers latter in the match.
     
  12. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2013
    Messages:
    1,402
    Likes Received:
    866
    Arguments going for Jolteon are kind of weak, simply because it is a frail pokemon.
    It's there because the team was born as a fix for a guy, and its pros are:
    1- it often gets the trade with Alakazam and has a chance to get away unstatused (even though the team admittedly lacks something good at swiching into TWave)
    2- it can hit Chansey decently (which will happen a lot in case your opponent recognizes the team, and leading with Jolteon will make the team recognizeable), so it has good early games with some RNG and at least a crippled chansey won't get to recover easily, looking at the rest of the team
    3- it's OK against Zapdos and it's faster than Tauros, especially considering that 5 members of the team can cause paralysis
    4- double electric to hit Waters looks good for a team that has a bad time against them (no Chansey, not even Snorlax, 3 Wrappers and Tauros)

    Jynx lead is a no-no, you can't really afford to switch into it after losing a LK war. Just like opposing Jynx switching out on turn 1 might be an issue later in the game. Anti-leads are fine, but I'd change other things too in that case.
    All in all, I wouldn't take that team too much seriously - it's extreme and the trick only works once and situationally, the whole team pecks on Exeggutor and wants to outspeed everything but you don't strictly need to that in case you want to Wrap.
    Snorlax is still the best thing to paralyse uncomfortable foes (just like Starmie) with and more solid builds should include it, there's not way to make that strategy work adding a counter for this and a counter for that: weaknesses just stack up.

    Figuring out a mix to justify picking Dragonite over other things in a Wrap team is still tricky, maybe Cloyster could be sacrificial lamb.
     

Share This Page