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GSC OU (OverUsed) Does every team need a Lax in GSC 1U/OU?

Discussion in 'Analysis and Research' started by supercube64, Mar 27, 2016.

  1. supercube64

    supercube64 Member

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    So I originally deleted this thread, but decided to repost it. So I feel that you really don't need a lax on your team to be honest. First of all most GSC OU or 1U teams carry atleast 2 or 3 lax checks on their team. Which can make it difficult for lax to get in (especially depending on the set your running). Also many people carry roar and whirlwind users on their team as well, in case of setup sweepers. Finally depending on the set you run for lax, you can be left wide open for a particular mon in your opponents team to exploit your weakness. Even Mixed lax (despite how good mixed lax is at checking its threats) can be checked by certain mons.
     
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  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I'm not a GSC expert and can't find a specific thread on it though on either mount silver or smogon... I've seen it come up in discussion before (I remember Bedschibaer giving a pretty good short explanation) ... basically it comes down to it being so good that it can usually do something for your team better than whatever else you might want to do it... I'm not explaining it very well though. :/
     
  3. supercube64

    supercube64 Member

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    O
    Oh don't get me wrong. I'm not denying how amazing Lax is. I can see the guy's point. I'm just saying people act like it's mandatory to make a successful team.
     
  4. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Hmmm I'm not sure I'd say Lax is literally required for GSC. You can still check everything with other pokemon and you can still generate offense via other means.

    In practice though? It's definitely necessary. It's as simple as any team without Snorlax being significantly worse than those with it. Defensively it can fit almost any role you can conceive of- it checks literally every special attacker in the tier outside of one set (AA Vap). It even checks some mixed attackers well (King being the most notable). That basically leaves pure physical attackers that it can't be useful for (depends on the situation). Offensively it possesses similar levels of versatility, with the caveat being that they're only accessible at teambuilder rather than mid-battle. Still, it can be tailored to do anything your team needs and provide any blend of wallbreaking and sweeping you need. That tailored to suit your team's needs is a big deal- the reason most teams run at least two Lax checks is because they need those checks to handle Lax. Even then things can go wrong- one of your checks gets worn down or paralysed and suddenly you're in a much more precarious position. On top of this, many Lax checks are really passive, which is also exploitable.

    I disagree with you when you say that Lax finds a tough time to come in, as it checks practically half the tier unless Drum or something. Likewise, it's not particularly exploitable- the only thing that springs to mind is Machamp as in it's something where you're like "oh shit I just let that in". And of course, Champ doesn't like taking Lax's attacks at all. No other Lax check is as threatening, but many Lax checks are deadweight offensively (e.g. UmbTank) and/or prone to getting worn down (Lix/TTar)

    tl;dr Lax is both really strong and really versatile, a combination nothing else can hope to replace, while all its checks have flaws
     
  5. supercube64

    supercube64 Member

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    Very compelling argument. When I said Lax had a hard time coming in however, I was referring to the fact that because many people carry 2 or more lax checks, it can make it difficult for lax to wreck house immediately. Of course in no way am I denying or underestimating Snorlax's immense power. Not only is this thing unpredictable, but it can sweep and annihilate entire teams, as well as being able to fit on any team. I'm just saying certain teams can do fine without him. At least in my opinion.
     
  6. Bedschibaer

    Bedschibaer officially retired from bo1 rby Member

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    I see where you are coming from, everyone tries to carry several answers for lax, yet lax is still the defining force of this metagame. I'd say that's just a testament of how good it actually is. Gscers aren't dumb and don't just use lax because some kid said it's mandatory in some guide years ago.

    What makes Snorlax so seemingly neccessary is the variety of roles it performs. It's not just a setup sweeper, it's not just a wall, it's not just a resttalker, it's not just a wallbreaker, it's all of those and probably even more. If they have a solid check for your snorlax you have the ability to use it for its defensive merits and search for a different part to win the game.

    No mon is invincible in gsc and just because your lax can't kill whatever mon is walling it right now that doesn't mean that it will be able to survive the match at all. A good player is usually able to pressure walls in the long run, Lax is just a part of either the breaking or the benefiting, not your solitary wincondition.

    Teams without Lax are possible, pretty much all GSCers came to the consensus that it is just so good that everyone uses it. If you got a team without lax the odds are that with lax it would just be better. It's just do dominant and good that I wouldn't want to not have it while my opponent has access to it. Feels like too much of a disadvantage to me. Snorlax is theoretically not mandatory because of some stigma, it is practically mandatory if you want to battle on even grounds most of the time though.
     
  7. supercube64

    supercube64 Member

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    Wow well said! I use a team without Lax, and it seemed to be doing just fine against other teams with Lax (probably cause I have like 3 Lax checks though) I see your point though. lax is definitely the meta. I'm pretty sure no one would argue that. Hes the king of GSC, and for good reason.
     
  8. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Okay, nice to see this came back.

    First point - GSC 1U actually doesn't exist yet, hilariously enough. Everyone pretty much agrees that OU isn't a "balanced meta", but we can't seem to agree on how to deal with that. Ubers = 1U is one possibility, but nobody's really enthusiastic about it because while reasonably balanced in terms of how good different Pokemon are (Lugia, Mewtwo, Mew and Snorlax are all kinda on a level; Lax keeps up with the rest because of LK) nobody really enjoys playing it very much. I'm honestly still behind it, if only because its 2U would be pretty similar to most of the "ban Snorlax and Electrics" proposals' 1U and thus there's little downside, but whatever.

    Second point (which others have touched on, but nobody's elucidated completely) is that while most teams prepare extensively for Lax and therefore it isn't generally a giant offensive threat out of the gate (there are exceptions, such as STAB/Earthquake/Belly Drum/Lovely Kiss and Double-Edge/Flamethrower/Toxic/Rest), it's got defensive utility as well, and momentum-grabbing defensive utility at that. It is kinda ridiculously bulky, particularly on the special side, and thus generically neuters most special threats. Indeed, the most common single set of Lax in contemporary use is RestTalk CurseLax (Double-Edge/Curse/Rest/Sleep Talk) - this set has next-to-no offensive capability since all ordinary Lax answers work on it, but it provides great defensive strength against the Legendary Electrics, Exeggutor and Baton Pass, and some against Nidoking, Vaporeon, Tyranitar and opposing Snorlax. It also, crucially, steals momentum like you wouldn't believe because it forces predictable switches to very unthreatening Pokemon. Once an opposing CurseLax starts Cursing, you have very few offensive options - Machamp has some chance of critting and OHKOing Snorlax, but you're essentially betting the game on that chance, and CurseRoarers threaten a counter-offensive (by Cursing up and then Roaring Lax out) but are in almost all cases very specially fragile and easily forced out. Pretty much everything else either has no offensive prowess or simply gets steamrollered by Lax. Thus, a situation where an opponent has offensive momentum and you're reacting is very often reversed into one where you have momentum and they're reacting; this ability to just generically turn the tables on half the meta is really only shared with Zapdos, and Zapdos isn't as good at it because it's not as bulky and Raikou, its best counter, exerts more pressure than most of Snorlax's checks.
     
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  9. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Well I put GSC OU as GSC 1U for now but it's open to change. I just went with an executive decision since we've had such big issues rallying a playerbase and any alternatives have had a hard time getting off of the ground and no vets other than maybe the no longer very present jorgen really have any interest in changing it. Of course when we get more of a playerbase (we got a few new players on here - amphorce, supercube64, lostwoods, kaisser - I think that's all, who're interested in GSCing) we can bring it back up and we should decide if we want to explore alternative possibilities, or if we want to just accept it as is, and move onto 2U.

    Your second point is a great point btw :eek:
     
  10. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Well, not NOBODY enjoys playing it, I enjoyed GSC Ubers quite a bit (heck, I was the one who first suggested GSC 1U = Ubers), and I thought I remember a few other GSCers enjoyed it too. Regardless of whatever is decided for GSC 1U, I'd want the traditional GSC OU preserved as a meta ("GSC Classic" or something) if it doesn't end up GSC 1U.
     
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Smogon can preserve the GSC OU if we need to. And yeah Isa Conflict M Dragon BKC all enjoy GSC Ubers, but it's not a question of enjoyment surely.
     
  12. Isa

    Isa Member

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    i love gsc ubers

    "Indeed, the most common single set of Lax in contemporary use is RestTalk CurseLax (Double-Edge/Curse/Rest/Sleep Talk)"
    source pls.
     
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  13. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    I stand corrected.
    Source

    (I did specify single set.)
     
  14. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    No, you do not absolutely "need" a Snorlax to build a competitive team in gen 2 OU. But it really is that good that you're undertaking a handicap by not using it. We did no lax tournament a while ago on Mount Silver and I did a fair bit of testing on P.O. with no Lax teams against regular OU teams and it actually worked a lot better than I had expected; so many teams are centralised around countering Snorlax's the faster pace of a no lax team can catch a lot of players out. That being said, an OU team without Snorlax could probably never be considered in "ultimate status". In a nutshell Snorlax is so key for special defense, so if you're going no lax I feel Raikou, Blissey or both are necessary, or you will simply have no answers for countering your opponents Raikou and Zapdos, they just pick off your entire roster one by one.
     
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  15. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Raikou, cloyster/starmie, quagsire, skarmory, gengar, blissey is the classic example of a well functioning no Snorlax setup.
     
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  16. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    And actually I must mention; some player on Pokemon Showdown, who is nothing short of ridiculous killed one of my best OU teams twice with this the other day:

    Ampharos, forretress, starmie, Steelix, exeggutor, miltank.
     
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  17. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    What was your team?
     
  18. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Raikou, cloyster, gengar, snorlax, skarmory, rhydon. It wasn't an exceptionally sweeping kinda team but it had 2 spinners and just crippled my ability to use Toxic and spike damage then out stalled me. Still pretty impressive for a team with no Lax or legendaries. I've only come across 3 players with that play style in my life; VIL, Assasin Celia, & Crystal. I'd almost put money down it was one of them.
     
  19. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    I made a few teams without Snorlax back in the day, but I'm not sure that they were better for not having Snorlax.

    To James G: The thing about Pokemon teams in general is that you can't really judge how good a team is by how well it does against the specific team you have out. There is a little Rock-Paper-Scissors thing going on that is done with team selection outside of battle, and if your team is Rock, and your opponent's team has something resembling Paper, it doesn't necessarily mean their team is optimal because it countered yours.

    I would be interested in their specific team because I think it's only from analyzing their team that we can see how good it was and whether or not it would benefit from the addition of a Snorlax and maybe some adjustments outside of that.
     
  20. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Yeah that's right; dominant teams emerge because they are good, they have the broadest, strongest spectrums of what they can beat. Metagaming then adapts to target the popular format rather than being a universally competent setup. And aforementioned team certainly had a good matchup against mine; a few mixed attackers with fire moves probably would have given it a hard time. I think I can remember it:

    1. Ampharos
    Thunder wave, thunderbolt, fire punch, dynamic punch

    2. Forretress
    Spikes, rapid spin, hp bug, (didn't see the last slot, probably xplosion)

    3. Starmie
    Thunder wave, psychic, surf, rapid spin

    4. Steelix
    Curse, earthquake, roar, explosion

    5. Exeggutor

    Sleep powder, leech seed, psychic (unsure of last, prob explosion again)

    6. Miltank
    Growl, body slam, heal bell, milk drink
     
  21. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    That team is destroyed by so many mixed attackers / special attackers with wide coverage.
     
  22. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Less than you might think. Drum f.blast clefable could tear it a new one but Miltank checks most other mixed attackers.
     
  23. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    Yeah Drum Clefable can destroy it but that's the least of its worries simply because it isn't all that common. How about if I put it this way? "The team can't take repeated special attacks". It can't even do anything about Rest/Talk HP Ice Zapdos except hope that you leave it in to get exploded on.

    You've got a Miltank, and an Ampharos that can't even heal itself. It could improve by replacing Ampharos with Raikou, but even then it's got a huge Tyranitar problem. I don't even want to talk about what HP Bug Marowak or Drumlax do to the team.

    It's going by this "hope you are on the defensive the whole game" strategy (well that's the only way it can ever work), but I don't think it really has the tools to carry it out because it also wants to be able to stall.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2016
  24. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    It may have had rock slide on steelix actually, I'm questioning myself now. But obviously it's a team which requires skill, good predictions and a certain amount of luck to use effectively. I noticed every time Amharos was brought into play it was with a "jump switch", so predicting that i'd bring in something Ampharos needed to counter, rather than tanking a hit to do it, and somehow they just read me like a book. Forretress can take Marowak, yeah a prediction variable but it can take a boosted hit, starmie, eggy & miltank all out speed it and threaten. HP water legendaries are checked by eggy, HP ice by Steelix, I lost my Raikou to terrible parafusion hax to Ampharos on both games.
     
  25. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    A more interesting question would be "does every team need a raikou or zapdos?"
    I've used a non zap and kou (actually no electric poke) team with a good bit of success. It has worked against really good players. Even though a team with no electric can win, it doesn't mean it is optimal though. I suspect that zapdos and raikou are sort of like snorlax in that when you consider everything and every possible team you can come up against, they are the most flexible and fill more roles than any other poke you could've put in their place. Now they obviously aren't necessary to the extent that snorlax is but I think they are extremely good. But, like I said, I've used non electric teams with success so I could be totally wrong. I wish more people would test this with different teams.
     
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  26. Conflict

    Conflict Member

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    You are right electrics are in no way mandatory. And ive done well with multiple electric-less teams on ladder or even highlevel GSC tours.

    Snorlax is harder to replace mainly due to its role compression. Its a good wall that actually has options to break through stuff unlike other walls like Blissey or Raikou that cant advance a gameplan in the same manner. Snorlax stats and movepool are just made for GSC. Not to mention that Lax design is just super cool.
     
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  27. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    VIL's team (Forretress, tyranitar, vaporeon, lax, gengar, exeggutor) is a really good no-electric team. Btw I say "VIL's team" because that is who I stole it from, I'm not sure where it originates from. I've won games against pretty good players with that team. BUT.. I've also lost to worse players with that team. So it depends on the team you are fighting.
     
  28. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Jolteon is the most obvious reason one would choose to forgo a legendary Electric. Full BP therefore doesn't use them.

    Roar Vaporeon would definitely be a way to patch the problems with Vaporeon and Suicune that otherwise arise.
     
  29. Ariel Rebel

    Ariel Rebel #1 rsutton23 Fan Member

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    If you want to use the argument that lax is well countered and that most players build their teams to check lax, I would say that rather than foregoing lax, it would be better to play an unconventional lax set instead. The movepool for lax in this gen is enough to force us to scout the set prior to getting comfy in a game. If I knew my opponent didn't have lax, I would adjust my game to suit that. But if my opponent has lax and I don't know the set, I will be playing with a degree of caution.

    This is a topic which I would love to see discussion on for gen 1. In gen 1, I think this would make a great topic.
     
  30. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I'm intrigued by this discussion as well, but in relation to Tauros rather than Lax. If we're talking about Lax then I would say the answer is a definite no imo, since GolDon are capable of providing physical wallbreaking, Slowbro already does Amnesia and Chansey sort of replicates its general defensive utility as well as doing Reflect better. Sure, that's multiple pokemon but they do the job well enough that for that specific role I would feel comfortable dropping Lax. Having said that, if I do drop Lax I always pack a GolDon since that physical wallbreaking is too good to pass up, although that's just a personal preference since I definitely think you can drop Lax and not use GolDon and still have a viable team.

    Tauros is a whole other matter though. It's every bit as dominating as Lax imo but it isn't as versatile, as the only roles it fills are sweeper and revenge killer
     
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  31. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    My Withdraw Slowbro team had no Tauros, but post-Crystal Tauros got buffed even more (though not quite as much as Chansey) and I'm not really sure ignoring it is still viable.
     
  32. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    Something that needs to be taken into consideration is how optimal your team is. Snorlax is very versatile with a numerous amount of sets each with different counters (think Salamance in DPP). One of borat’s quotes in one of his guides is that every team outside a specific few just works better with snorlax. Snorlax enables offense to break stall (drum) and also helps defense work by walling the ever powerful raikou and zapdos. Without snorlax to counter these, teams need either an incredible amount of offense to cover up for the hole in defense (via aggressive plays, double switches, cross chop spamming) or pokemon like blissey that have no use other than walling and are pathetic pokemon in general. Quagsire also does a good job of walling electrics but falls short on other special attackers that snorlax could handle (vaporeon comes to mind.) Snorlax however is only overcenteralized in teambuilding, not playing. While playing snorlax might have to sit on the bench doing nothing but walling the occasional special attack while other pokemon are being used more. All in all, snorlax is a positive effect on the gsc meta.


    Celebi is dumb and dont let it to ou
     
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  33. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Depends on what you mean by pathetic. Blissey is pathetic in terms of offense but like you said it has great walling capabilities and stall SHOULD be the way people play this game if they want to play as perfect as possible, but they don't because no game is worth taking that much time out of relationships, friendships, and family, because if you're wasting that much time to play an old pokemon game, and taking that much time out of other important things in your life for it, then maybe you need to reassess your life (which is why this gen is so unpopular by the way). Blissey can definitely work over lax on stall teams though.
     
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  34. Lojh

    Lojh I worship BORAT Member

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    Yes but lax on stall can do something like force spikes roar raikou out or with its mixed attacker set instantly help win the stall v stall matchup, whereas blissey just sits there and tries to freeze with ib or toxic things.

    Edit: dont get me started on lkdrumlax and drumfirelax, which both 6-0’s your “best” stall team. Most of my stall teams run lkdrumlax with umbreon for the purpose of auto winning the stall v stall mu.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018

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