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All Gens Do You Think The Ubers Tier Is Broken In Most Generations?

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Disaster Area, Jan 22, 2018.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    This is what should probably be kind of an obvious question (in theory most people would say yes in most if not all generations) but I want to guage where everyone else is at.

    When I say broken I mean by whatever we think 1Us standard ought to be I guess. To say an ubers meta is "broken" doesnt mean that it's not fun or not playable, but it is to say that there are Pokemon or other things that are too imbalanced that if you wanted to start tiering from the top down u would very likely do at least 1 ban.
     
  2. Troller

    Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    The only "healthy" ubers is gen 4
    Gen 1 Mewtwo...
    Gen 2 Too much Curse wars+crit oriented
    Gen 3 Latios and Deoxys-Attack are damn overpower
    Gen 4 Balanced
    Gen 5 Arceus "Extreme Killer" and Water Spout Kyogre too
    Gen 6 Fuck Geomancy
    Gen 7 Fuck Z-Geomancy, and Psychic Terrain Deoxys too
     
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  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    My views
    Gen 1 - Mewtwo definitely broken af
    Gen 2 - I genuinely cannot comprehend this metagame
    Gen 3 - Kyogre Soul Dew & Groudon clearly broken af, and probably the least of it
    Gen 6 - Primals/Mega Mence/Geomancy/Shadow Tag all broken and that's it
    Gen 4/5/7 - Idk haven't even tried to play them
     
  4. Linkin Karp

    Linkin Karp Sie sagen "Jungs, macht mal langsam", es nützt nix Season Host

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    I think 1U should have way more diversity than actual Ubers does. A good example is SM, where almost every Ubers team currently runs at least 4 of the 5 following: Groudon-Primal, Arceus, Xerneas, Yveltal, Necrozma.
    However, if the A-ranks are banned we can definitely get a healthy meta, as the SM 1U tests have shown. Of course we can make it even _more_ healthy (ban Kyogre ffs), but overall that level of health is already close to the Smogon newgen OU metas, which means sufficient diversity while nothing is clearly mandatory or broken.

    Another thing I want to mention here is something that often gets proposed on Smogon, namely banning only the cover legends (which would massively reduce the power level in the never 1U tiers because we've still got everything running around that wasn't affected by the Gen 6 power creep). That would make the meta really bad though, like really bad, because everything between cover legends and OU is basically hyper-offense (Mega Luke comes to mind). Lugia and Giratina are our tier's saviours while still being pretty manageable by threats like Rayquaza. Maybe ban some more stuff, probably ban Arceus too because Ekiller really isn't healthy, but only ban as long as there's stuff that can break stall afterwards, because if stall goes away we might as well use Smogon OU as a starting point.
     
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  5. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    i only really know gens 1/3/6

    1: mega ultra broken yeah

    3: definitely playable and fun. i disagree that latios/kyogre/anything else is too overpowered - it's definitely a "broken checks broken" tier, but from playing it i really felt like the better player won more often because every mon can be answered. it's by no means perfect, but neither is rby1U and we don't seem to have many issues with that garbage being our main tier for more than a decade so why not lol

    6: mega rayquay needs to get banned, everything else is pretty fair. sure, geomancy is stupid, and sure, p-groudon is everywhere, but in terms of balance this is at the very least playable and i don't think banning things from here makes much sense. i could maybe see a xerneas ban but i'm scared of what yveltal and darkrai can do without him around.
     
  6. Isa

    Isa Member

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    gsc ubers is the best metagame i know
     
  7. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    Even banning just cover legends doesn't make much sense... Kyurem-Black is not even broken in Smogon's BW OU lmao. I guess I don't really have to say why though that just banning the cover legends is a bad approach.

    Yea SM 1U is definitely not done testing but I appreciate your first paragraph at least.

    1. if RBY 1U is that bad we can do something about it :thinking: of course things seem to have gotten "worse" over the past couple of years, chansey is definitely more broken than it was 2 years ago, whether or not it is actually broken.
    2."broken checks broken" is the most nonsense term lol. In RBY Ubers (which you agree is broken) the better player wins more often and every Pokemon & set can be answered. That's evidently not enough, though?
     
  8. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja "Sheer determination and desire to become better." Member

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    1. it was more of a general point to say that i think you're being way too strict if you think the balance levels in ADV Ubers are bad. there's a very similar small number of really overpowered pokes dominating every other option and dictating what other things have a niche - if it's bad in adv ubers, throw everything in the first two gens in the garbage lol
    2. "broken checks broken" is how a ton of tiers work. it's a somewhat legitimate way of balancing when you have a decent number of broken mons checking each other. is it enough for variety? no, but is it enough for very balanced matches and not forcing you to run any given mon in particular? yeah, easily. try running a rby ubers team without mewtwo and/or mew, good luck getting anywhere. adv ubers without latios or kyogre or whoever else? yeah you can make a competitive team easily
     
  9. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    So I think anyone who knows my general perspective on tiering will know my opinion on this. The only generation where a healthy environment cannot be found in either ubers or some derivative thereof is gen 1, primarily because you have a grand total of one option (mewbers) that isn't ubers or ou, and we all know Mew's borked as well.

    Gen 2 is great without any bans. There are a host of different strategic options to try and matches can span a wide variety of different dynamics.

    Gen 3 is summed up pretty well by TIN- broken checks broken. Looking back on the Ogre suspect I realise it wasn't quite broken in the context of Lati@s being a thing, but there are practically no reliable checks to it beyond that. At least one of Lati@s is an absolute necessity, which by definition makes it broken, but I can totally see the argument that in spite of that the tier is healthy, as Ogre is sufficiently negated by Lati@s so that it doesn't make an excessive impact. This one's really dependent on what standard you expect from a tier. The more I think on it, the more I realise that my role in the Ogre suspect was a bit of a mistake since I think it's important to identify whether or not a metagame is healthy before banning anything, even if it's technically broken.

    Gen 4 idk, need to play it. Strongly doubt that it's impossible to create a balanced tier before arriving at OU though, there's just too many pokemon and broadly speaking ubers has a great

    Gen 5 is great. Firstly, to address the stuff Troller mentioned, I don't see EKA as being broken given that it (usually) doesn't have any recovery, lacks the raw power to muscle through many of its checks and brings nothing but a bit of revenge killing to the table defensively, while Kyogre's Water Spout is greatly limited by the abundance of hazards in the tier. Secondly, I don't know where I was going with this =P

    Gen 6 I think our 1U tier is pretty great, tbh I'd rather see fewer bans than more. That said, I definitely think that for the foreseeable future, at least some bans will be necessary- MRay is obvious, but also stuff like Geomancy and STag I don't think are healthy
     
  10. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Leader

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    This is why it's so important to iron this sort of thing out and get discussion going. To me even if the ADV Ubers tier is fairly balanced, I 100% support a ban on soul dew and kyogre, they just feel incredibly broken to me. It also provides some clarity in that it does make me somewhat realise I don't really know how to draw the line on what is or isn't broken beyond a gut feeling, and I want to hear other people's thoughts so I can actually start to come to some sort of conclusion on that.

    ---

    I think ORAS 1U also is an excellent example of the sort of thing Karp talked about - our expectations regarding diversity. The ORAS Ubers tier is fairly balanced, but you have a single form of a Pokemon (Primal Groudon) which singlehandedly has upwards of 80% usage. There's only a handful of good setups for offenses, balances, and stalls, compared to the variety in ORAS 1U or ORAS OU or any other tier in the generation. It drastically warps the metagame and almost entirely invalidates Water- and Electric-types as offensive threats (Kyogre kind of hangs on with its Primal but without Primal Groudon it's a comfortable S rank Pokemon even without its Primal form). If there was a Pokemon like this in RBY we would tolerate it (Nidoking in RBY 4U is actually the closest example given how it and Nidoqueen almost entirely invalidate the available Electric-types in the tier, but in almost if not every RBY tier you have a Pokemon or more than 1 with that sort of usage) but in ORAS to me it's unacceptable. If you do ban Primal Groudon then Mega Salamence and Primal Kyogre have to go straight afterwards because of how few and unreliable their answers are, I think Mega Gengar is clearly broken at that point then too and I think Geomancy is just a little bit too strong & restrictive. Shadow Tag is maybe overzealous and that's about the only thing in the ruleset I think really bears any questioning, but really fuck Gothitelle & also to a lesser extent Wobbuffet, I think they are broken though I could see myself being outnumbered on that one.
     
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